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Nier (og/rep) has a good story, told poorly (major spoilers)

Mar 6, 2016
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Disclaimer this is some stuff I’ve always wanted to discuss and I played it years ago so a lot of this is from memory.

I’ve not played the remaster so they might have expanded on the world.

This game definitely leaves you yearning to learn more
About the world, what happened etc. And frankly leaves you with more questions than that are answered.

If you take ending A,b and c, it’s a fairly good story but with not much explained.
You have to use a website the grimnoir I believe? To actually find out what happened to the world of nier which doesn’t even make sense in some aspects.
There’s so much information missing from the game it’s quite insane tbh. When you kill the twins they drop some documents you can briefly read but they don’t explain too much.
We learn the world was destroyed and humans turned to shades to live until the world was healed. Ok cool, so why is there a temple that extends miles in the sky that leads to a high school gym ?
The world game is on is supposed to be earth. The fact you find Emile in a weapons lap that was developing weapons to fight the demons further proves you’re on earth and not some locked away magical place.
The world was destroyed in some war by demons created by infection from a dragon from another reality lol. The humans only way to survive was to use the magic brought into to world by said dragon to turn to shades and live forever until the world was cleansed; at the same time the replicants were created to fight the rest of the demons and tend to the world.

(None of this shit is in the game)

The black scrawl virus is never explained. Apparently any time a human was cloned or replicated they carried over any human diseases or whatever. However the game eludes to multiple people slowly dying of the same thing. Niers daughter was always going to die even the real version, yet the human body has a gazillions of different ailments that kill it, so if you have some fatal illness and get replicated. All the replicated people just get the same black scrawl thing?

Even the motivations of the shades why did they need replicator nier to merge these two books ? The twins could have done it and merged the souls back and wala human race saved. Yet the twins were pissed off the shadow lord made his move. Were they supposed to wait another 1000 years?

Kanie... she’s repeatedly called freak throughout the game, now I assumed it was because she had magic powers etc. Well nowhere in the game it alludes to her being a hermaphrodite hence why she’s bullied.

If shades could just control replicants, why didn’t they just go and control their assigned replicate manually.

If the twins manipulated the situation because it was time for the remerging, I’m guessing the shadow lord was tired of waiting for it and launched his attack, but if the twins plan worked his daughter would be back in her body.

And ending D was dumb as hell and I don’t mean because of file deletion. But a clone giving up their life to save another clone seemed stupid and not fitting in the world created.
 
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GHG

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We have an OT and dude, spoilers galore for the people who might be playing this for the first time.
 
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We have an OT and dude, spoilers galore for the people who might be playing this for the first time.
Are you joking? It says in the title major spoils and I doubt people
Playing for the first time want to discuss all that in the OT.
 
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GHG

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Are you joking? It says in the title major spoils and I doubt people
Playing for the first time want to discuss all that in the OT.

The remake just came out though, I don't understand the logic behind this.

Unless you wanted to make a specific "story discussion thread". Some of what you are questioning is explained in Drakengard.
 
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Danjin44

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Even the motivations of the shades why did they need replicator nier to merge these two books ? The twins could have done it and merged the souls back and wala human race saved. Yet the twins were pissed off the shadow lord made his move. Were they supposed to wait another 1000 years?
What they didn't count on is Replicant gaining their own free will and consciousness and this is big reason why Shade(humans) couldn't merge with Replicants. The black scrawl is result of their Shade acting up. This is why once all Shades die, so does the Replicants with them.

And ending D was dumb as hell and I don’t mean because of file deletion. But a clone giving up their life to save another clone seemed stupid and not fitting in the world created.
I don't understand how is that dump? As far as Replicants are concern they are human.

Watch this:
 
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LRKD

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Kanie... she’s repeatedly called freak throughout the game, now I assumed it was because she had magic powers etc. Well nowhere in the game it alludes to her being a hermaphrodite hence why she’s bullied.
"I don't get you, freak. Whatcha acting like a girl for, huh?
Everyone knows what you really are!"

Straight from the game, now obviously it doesn't straight up say she has a dick, you have to do a little reading in between the lines. Also of course if you look at the in game model, she is packing some heat. Putting both of those together you can easily see in game it does more than allude to her having a dick.


I have no clue why you would figure it's because she had magical powers, no where in Kaine's Dream sections did it make it seem like she had magical powers. I can understand missing one, or even both details if you didn't pay attention while reading Kaines dream section, but I don't think you can point to this specific part as bad story telling. Just smaller details that went over a lot of players heads. In fact, I'd argue it was done incredibly well, something that requires the player to actually pay attention and think, instead of just telling the player.
 

ethomaz

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First you need to understand that the endings A, B, C and D are all complementary and together explain the story.

Plus neither is the actual real ending... that one is the ending E found in the Grimorie NiER, a book only launched in Japan.... in that book to understand better the canon ending you need to look at The Magic Mountain and The Lost World.

BTW to avoid the extinction the humanity finds a way to separate the soul and body until the disease is ended... the Souls is called Gestalt and the body Replicant... the bodies gains own confidence and doesn’t accept the Souls anymore that makes the Souls go crazy and become what is called Shades.

You play as the original (first) Replicant (body) that give born conscience and fight agains the Shadow Lord, the original Gestalt (soul) that couldn’t accept the body getting it own conscience and not allowing the fusion to back to the original entity.

The canon ending the Replicant wins (you) and sacrifices it own existence to save Kainé, she/he is a Replicant that has control over it Shade/Gestalt and so she end fusing and becoming the human again.

When I say sacrifices it own existence I mean everybody forgets that the Replicant NiER ever existed.

Gestalt NiER finds his daughter in another dimension/world after defeated in the game dimension/world.

Ohhhjh I forget to say that if the Replicant doesn’t make the fusion with their original Souls (Gestalt) they will end vanishing... so the NiER Replicant could never survive after defect his original Soul.
 
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There's so much exposition that was left behind between Nier Replicant/Gestalt back in the day. So much was changed for the original American release, and translation issues didn't help either. Look into the Wiki because now there's three different versions of this game you have to understand.
 

ethomaz

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There's so much exposition that was left behind between Nier Replicant/Gestalt back in the day. So much was changed for the original American release, and translation issues didn't help either. Look into the Wiki because now there's three different versions of this game you have to understand.
NiER Replicant and Gestalt has the same story.

IMO the biggest issue with NiER is the fact that the canon ending was released in a book and it is not part neither game.
 
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NiER Replicant and Gestalt has the same story.

IMO the biggest issue with NiER is the fact that the canon ending was released in a book and it is not part neither game.
The American version, from my recollection changed minor details here and there. Also, there are just general differences between the two versions, including the ages of ALL characters. Not just Nier.
 
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The remake just came out though, I don't understand the logic behind this.

Unless you wanted to make a specific "story discussion thread". Some of what you are questioning is explained in Drakengard.
honestly you're thread whining over nothing. the fact that the remaster is out gives it more reason to exist. people who have finished it, can discuss my points here without ruining it in the OT. And yes I am aware the nier is a secret ending of a drakengard game.
What they didn't count on is Replicant gaining their own free will and consciousness and this is big reason why Shade(humans) couldn't merge with Replicants. The black scrawl is result of their Shade acting up. This is why once all Shades die, so does the Replicants with them.


I don't understand how is that dump? As far as Replicants are concern they are human.

Watch this:
That makes sense. However, the game/info book mentions about niers daughter being sick before going gestalt. And it turns out the twins repeated repair and fix broken replicants. Why would niers daughters shade act up, if its stood right next to the shadow lord.

I mean its dumb that how a replicant can just give up its life and it magically restores someone elses.
"I don't get you, freak. Whatcha acting like a girl for, huh?
Everyone knows what you really are!"

Straight from the game, now obviously it doesn't straight up say she has a dick, you have to do a little reading in between the lines. Also of course if you look at the in game model, she is packing some heat. Putting both of those together you can easily see in game it does more than allude to her having a dick.


I have no clue why you would figure it's because she had magical powers, no where in Kaine's Dream sections did it make it seem like she had magical powers. I can understand missing one, or even both details if you didn't pay attention while reading Kaines dream section, but I don't think you can point to this specific part as bad story telling. Just smaller details that went over a lot of players heads. In fact, I'd argue it was done incredibly well, something that requires the player to actually pay attention and think, instead of just telling the player.
Well tbf it was a good 4 years ago and I couldn't remember.
First you need to understand that the endings A, B, C and D are all complementary and together explain the story.

Plus neither is the actual real ending... that one is the ending E found in the Grimorie NiER, a book only launched in Japan.... in that book to understand better the canon ending you need to look at The Magic Mountain and The Lost World.

BTW to avoid the extinction the humanity finds a way to separate the soul and body until the disease is ended... the Souls is called Gestalt and the body Replicant... the bodies gains own confidence and doesn’t accept the Souls anymore that makes the Souls go crazy and become what is called Shades.

You play as the original (first) Replicant (body) that give born conscience and fight agains the Shadow Lord, the original Gestalt (soul) that couldn’t accept the body getting it own conscience and not allowing the fusion to back to the original entity.

The canon ending the Replicant wins (you) and sacrifices it own existence to save Kainé, she/he is a Replicant that has control over it Shade/Gestalt and so she end fusing and becoming the human again.

When I say sacrifices it own existence I mean everybody forgets that the Replicant NiER ever existed.

Gestalt NiER finds his daughter in another dimension/world after defeated in the game dimension/world.

Ohhhjh I forget to say that if the Replicant doesn’t make the fusion with their original Souls (Gestalt) they will end vanishing... so the NiER Replicant could never survive after defect his original Soul.
I thought the real reason the shades go crazy is that they need to stay near the shadow lord to stay stable, not because the bodies gain free will. Why did the twins tell you to go to the mountain village and wipe out he shades there if they were co-living with the replicants.

Actually the canon ending can't be right. In automata you find a document that talks about a man named Nier. If thats the case, his existence couldn't have been wiped out.
 

SkylineRKR

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Kaine is obviously intersex. In the A scenario there are only minor hints, like Weiss saying she battles demons in her undergarments. But in B, the villagers call her a freak and not a real girl, and she complains herself that her body isn't normal. Later she explains to Emil that she is different.
 

ethomaz

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honestly you're thread whining over nothing. the fact that the remaster is out gives it more reason to exist. people who have finished it, can discuss my points here without ruining it in the OT. And yes I am aware the nier is a secret ending of a drakengard game.

That makes sense. However, the game/info book mentions about niers daughter being sick before going gestalt. And it turns out the twins repeated repair and fix broken replicants. Why would niers daughters shade act up, if its stood right next to the shadow lord.

I mean its dumb that how a replicant can just give up its life and it magically restores someone elses.

Well tbf it was a good 4 years ago and I couldn't remember.

I thought the real reason the shades go crazy is that they need to stay near the shadow lord to stay stable, not because the bodies gain free will. Why did the twins tell you to go to the mountain village and wipe out he shades there if they were co-living with the replicants.

Actually the canon ending can't be right. In automata you find a document that talks about a man named Nier. If thats the case, his existence couldn't have been wiped out.
The Gestalt NiER (Shadowlord) survived in another world after defeated... he finally find his daughter.

There is no relate for the Replicant NiER.

The twins are Androids created to manage the Soul/Body division plan.
The Shade is the Gestalt/Soul and has the original conscience... it should not go crazy but the lost of the control over his Replicant (body) developing a new conscience drive them to the relapse phenomenon (they basically go crazy) and that causes the Black Scrawl in the Replicants.

Now that part I don’t remember very well but seems like the original (the first) human to be divided, NiER, left a bug or something like related to it DNA on the Project with the intent of a world only with Replicants... that was the Shadowlord/GestaltNiER plan... so he can make the relapsed Shades to get stable again when they are near him.

Remember the ReplicantNiER you play is a new conscience inside the body of the original NiER... you can say he is not the original NiER conscience... the original
NiER conscience is the GestaltNiER/Shadowlord and that is the man you found in a lot of books/text.

The canon ending the NiER Replicant existence was wiped from all memories.
 
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Kuranghi

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I don't why but I never ever want to play these games (for their story) after I hear anything about it, I'm like "This story just seems so disjointed, confusing and relies on external resources" meanwhile I love Neon Genesis Evangelion :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Its exactly what Evangelion would sound like if I tried to describe it to others in text I'm betting so I should really just give the games a chance and find out.
 

ethomaz

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I don't why but I never ever want to play these games (for their story) after I hear anything about it, I'm like "This story just seems so disjointed, confusing and relies on external resources" meanwhile I love Neon Genesis Evangelion :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Its exactly what Evangelion would sound like if I tried to describe it to others in text I'm betting so I should really just give the games a chance and find out.
Well story is one of the biggest selling points in NiER.

The issue is that the story relies a lot in media outside the game and the good games are only 2 (NiER and NiER Automata... the others games are utter trash in gameplay terms).

But the whole thing is really interesting.
I got my NiER copy by a trade with a friend... I got it and Demon’s Souls (it was that time that Demon’s Souls US version were sold out)... I played Demon’s Souls first and loved and after played NiER and while Demon’s Souls is a better game the story, man, the story was so interesting and catching that I loved.

It made me go look for the previous games and others media.
 
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Punished Miku

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Its written in the style of Neon Genesis Evangelion. You don't get every answer spoon-fed to you. You end the story with questions that provoke discussion, introspection, further research. Eventually in time, you get the answers. Is it the best style of storytelling 100% of the time? No, but I do tend to find stories told in this way to rank among my favorites. There's hints in Drakengard, loading screens, weapon stories. It's basically like a more fleshed out and cinematic style of Dark Souls storytelling. You have to piece it together with the community.
 

cireza

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We learn the world was destroyed and humans turned to shades to live until the world was healed. Ok cool, so why is there a temple that extends miles in the sky that leads to a high school gym ?
The world game is on is supposed to be earth. The fact you find Emile in a weapons lap that was developing weapons to fight the demons further proves you’re on earth and not some locked away magical place.
This is a part that I would be interested in having people's opinions. It felt to me that the world were the vessels are is a closed place designed to have them grow, but then it does not make much sense to see Emil's laboratory in it... and even the shadows actually.

However, I cannot see the temple and the elevator as anything else than a way to represent the connection between this fictive world and the real one.

Automata also had one remaining question for me where I feel that the game does not give enough information to have an opinion I would feel satisfied with. It is about this part :

It says that the Backdoor was designed so that the Bunker comes to an end, so that newer models can replace the current androids. Where would they come from ? Where are they ? Where are the androids built to being with ? This is a bit lacking.
 
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Goro Majima

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Nier has a lot of the same narrative problems as Kingdom Hearts but gets way less shit for it for some reason.
 

Danjin44

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Nier has a lot of the same narrative problems as Kingdom Hearts but gets way less shit for it for some reason.
There is lot of lore behind Drakengard and Nier and you can explore that if you want but you don't need to know those lore in order enjoy core story of each entry.

There are good number of people who played Nier but didn't even know the connection to Drakengard but that didn't stop them from enjoying story, characters and theme.
 
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Guilty_AI

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I think some people concentrate too much in the lore when criticizing the story of games like this.

Talking about Automata here since its the one i've played, that game has some excellent direction.
Cohesive thematic through out the entire and every aspect game (something very rare for AA-AAA titles and a lot of JRPGs), great character development - both for main and side-characters - that are delivered in incredible well done manners, same with the development of the ideas and thoughts the game wants to pass on to the player.

Just to give an example:
This is something you see relatively early on in the game:



Then much later theres this scene:



The similarities between these two moments aren't a coincidence.
 
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ethomaz

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Imagine the franchise story happened in out past millions of years ago... today we are finding text, parts, etc of what happened to complete and understand the story.

But we will never had the full story because it is lost.

That is how the franchise story is told to you... the game gives you what the main character find and that is all.

You will never have the full picture.

Even the others media outside the games give you a bit more but not enough to have all answers.
 
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Graciaus

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The black scrawl happens when a gestalt relapses. If a replicant is created from a relapsed gestalt they will always get it. Once you relapse you can never join with your replicant. Which is why the human race is eventually completely wiped out. After the original gestalt is killed at the end of the game everyone is essentially doomed.

I do agree the game does a poor job of explaining everything. But if you take some time to read up on it it's pretty interesting.
 

shenmue mugen

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The twins are Androids created to manage the Soul/Body division plan.
Wait. What? I've played Automata and in that game Devola and Popola are androids...but in Replicant the twins are also androids???????????
The Shade is the Gestalt/Soul and has the original conscience... it should not go crazy but the lost of the control over his Replicant (body) developing a new conscience drive them to the relapse phenomenon (they basically go crazy) and that causes the Black Scrawl in the Replicants.

Remember the ReplicantNiER you play is a new conscience inside the body of the original NiER... you can say he is not the original NiER conscience... the original
NiER conscience is the GestaltNiER/Shadowlord and that is the man you found in a lot of books/text.

The canon ending the NiER Replicant existence was wiped from all memories.
So the black scrawl is a reaction that occurs when the Replicant body rejects it's original ''Gestalt Soul'' because it's already developed it's own ''Replicant Soul''??????
 

Punished Miku

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Wait. What? I've played Automata and in that game Devola and Popola are androids...but in Replicant the twins are also androids???????????

So the black scrawl is a reaction that occurs when the Replicant body rejects it's original ''Gestalt Soul'' because it's already developed it's own ''Replicant Soul''??????
1) They are androids in Replicant. Everyone is an android basically, except Emil (the last actual human).
2) In Automata, you are interacting with different androids but of the same model # as Devola and Popola.

Black scrawl is an android body breaking down due to the impairment of their paired soul (the shade attached to it), by getting corrupted and / or dying. I think the androids in Automata are fine because they weren't created as housing units for human souls - kind of like Devola and Popola. It's the soul / body linking process breaking down as the soul dies.

Replicants never develop a soul. But over time, they did evolve to gain sentience and their own personalities. Then the question is, is their value in life without a soul? And this question goes even further in Automata, and you are continually challenged to admit that artificial life has to be considered as having the same inherent value as any other organic life. You're shown example after example of artificial life forms living lives of relative meaning.
 
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ethomaz

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Wait. What? I've played Automata and in that game Devola and Popola are androids...but in Replicant the twins are also androids???????????

So the black scrawl is a reaction that occurs when the Replicant body rejects it's original ''Gestalt Soul'' because it's already developed it's own ''Replicant Soul''??????
Yes and yes.

But I’m sure if they develop an actual soul... it develops a conscience so maybe we can call it an artificial soul?

When the Replicant reject the Gestalt it results in two things: Gestalt going crazy and Replicant receiving a Black Scrawl.
 
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