• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next Generation of Nintendo Hardware - Lessons to take from Wii U and 3DS

Tabris

Member
Don't forget that the 3DS also plays DS games and that has a huge value.

Pretty hard for me to justify getting a PS4 at launch when I still have a PS3 backlog to play. By the time I finish playing it, the PS4 will be cheaper. Now, if the PS4 had BC, I'd trade in my PS3 for $100, pay $300 to get a PS4 and between the sparse good launch games and typical slow 1st year, I'd play my backlog with it. Single console under the TV. I'm flabbergasted how people can't see it that way, tbh.

What does PS4 have to do with my post? If you're saying that at least Nintendo consoles have BC, I agree with you that is a huge benefit (poorly implemented in both consoles but at least they have them unlike PS4 and XB1). But that doesn't exempt Nintendo from poor hardware design.

EDIT - And since this is a new page, I'll re-iterate. The reason for poor hardware design is because they are too focused on trying to create the next fad instead of focusing on perfecting a product. The Wii's momentary success in the first half of last generation will be Nintendo's curse for years to come as they will keep chasing that.
 
Is 3DS actually one of your favourite consoles of all time? I understand a hyperbole to make a point, but come on now. I assume you are appreciating the device due to the quality of games released on it, not due to the actual hardware benefits. Is the 3D a game changer for you, or is it that games like SMT and Fire Emblem have been fantastic?

Disassociate the content with the device. The device is holding back the content and has been for multiple generations because it hasn't been focused, perfected, and been very "gimmicky".

Look at the best to offer on Nintendo consoles, and tell me their hardware has actually helped or hindered it.

"OK, imagine your favourite console. Now take away all the great games it had. Is it still great? Yeah. That's what I thought."

That's a pretty ridiculous argument. Ask anyone why their favourite console is their favourite console, and they'll immediately start listing games for you. Having said that, your claim that "the device is holding back the content" is stated as if it were fact, while I would completely disagree.. You've also used some very vague terms that you need to define. What do you mean by "focused" content, exactly? Also, your use of "gimmicky" here is unclear.

I think the dual/touch screen in the DS redefined handheld gaming. Its opened up interesting, inventive new avenues of gameplay that I would never call "gimmicky". At its least imaginative implementation, it's adds a level of ease in menu/inventories/map management that no one is complaining about. It doesn't detract from the gameplay experience, unless its mishandled by a developer who gets too focused on a gameplay mechanic that isn't particularly enjoyable. Certainly, with any hardware their are bound to be developers that make use of the technology ineffectively, but that's hardly exclusive to Nintendo consoles. I also enjoy the 3D quite a bit. Yes, I've heard people complain about it, but I never had that issue. It genuinely offers me a unique gameplay experience that I can't get on another handheld. It's not my favourite feature, though it is nice. The system, with or without the 3D, serves as a nice upgrade to the DS.

Yes, the 3DS has an excellent library of games right now. Yes, that has something to do with why I like it. I have 25+ games on the system (many of which are eshop titles or virtual console games), and I take it everywhere. I love the fact that the games I play on the system are so vastly different to what I play on other consoles, BECAUSE of the hardware. Saying it's one of my favourite consoles of all time is not hyperbole, as it pertains to my experience. Seeing that there are a wide range of preferences amongst people in this world, that's a reasonable statement.
 

AzaK

Member
I want cutting edge hardware with Nintendo games. I'll also happily pay for it. The problem Nintendo had is they made something more for the core gamer (they're the ones buying Wii Us and games) but didn't go the whole hog.

Give up this cheap, energy efficient bollocks and cater to core first and foremost. Mainstream will follow if you're smart.
 

Comandr

Member
I wonder if the 2DS is sort of an experiment, a way to test the waters with a new form factor. Perhaps their next handheld may have a single tall/vertically oriented screen? Kinda like this

1229994_123322917838099_965621598_n.png

I can totally see this happening. Only Nintendo would say "fuck tradition. Widescreen is everyone elses' game. We are going vertical."
 

KingJ2002

Member
I agree with you OP but there's more to the value pieces aside from price point. People just don't understand what the Wii U is... and i'm starting to think neither does Nintendo. Their marketing strategy clearly tells me that's the case.

To this day people don't even know there's a new Wii is out let alone if it's a tablet or a gaming system.

That's a terrible situation to be in... and i have no clue as to how Nintendo will get out.
 

Resilient

Member
I thought this thread was about lessons? I'm suggesting how Nintendo should sell their products so they don't fail next time (unless you think Wii U is a grand success or something then you don't need to read the rest).

I need a compelling reason why Nintendo should charge the same prices as Microsoft and Sony that isn't based on profit. Again, from what I gather Nintendo consoles are sold on first party, not third party no? It's otherwise a premium to buy their products when all future third party looks bleak. You are not getting these things that the competition offers or if you do, why buy it on the Nintendo system when chances are the games are either the same or worst on their home console?

Maybe their gimmicks? What happens when the showing is weak? I guess this varies from person to person but does a console who specializes in just first party with a unique feature equal that of a much newer or older console who will have a bigger library than them? Especially remember what will the first year look like? Will it be a disaster like Wii U's launch was? Can Nintendo guarantee they can even deliver a lineup of games in such time or is that what their output will always look like?

Lastly you have the little stuff like online and hardware specs. If their consoles are weak and behind everyone else, you are only hoping Nintendo's first party and any unique feature they push can overcome these differences.

This is why charging $99 - 159 doesn't look insane to me. Nintendo fulfills their niche. If they back out from specs, if they back out from wanting third parties, then asking for a console cheaper than what's on the market, now and into future, is reasonable unless again. You can find the value of first party and the unique peripheral rivaling that of a $400 powerhouse or a $200 console with similar graphical capabilities but still better online and bigger lineup of software.

Edit: This is also about the future by the way. Nintendo has to even prove they can even duplicate the Wii's success over and over and over and over again. What are the chances and how many times can Nintendo do this and what will Nintendo do when it fails? Still charge the same price? What happens when software output gets slower (something much needed for a pricecut)? It's gonna be a chicken or the egg scenario. No one buys it because it's too expensive but no games also wont interest them.

Edit2: Of course, you'll have the diehards who buy a Nintendo system at any price. Maybe they should charge $1000. They could make a sweet profit off that at the cost of serious market share if none of this matters at all. None.

I need a compelling reason as to why you think they should price their next console at $99. So far all you have done is argue that it's weaker than the competition. So what? We already know that the system is selling at a loss at 349/299. How on Earth would $99 help anything? Or $159 for that matter?? We'd have to regress to Wii like visuals.

Just because the Wii U does not currently receive multiplat games does not mean the system is being sold on first party games alone. Nintendo have always attracted a different range of games from third parties - if anything, OP hit the nail on the head by suggesting they focus on indies.
 

Dacvak

No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
There are a few semantic technical issues with your proposal (N64 games running emulated on 3DS? I doubt it...they could only marginally improve Ocarina of Time's graphics and it ran natively; also compare with PSP's limited N64 emulation), but the main problem is that it's not as valuable to Nintendo as selling off their catalog title by title.

Nintendo HAS to be raking in the dough by selling the games individually. $5 for SMB1, and AGAIN for 3DS ownership, and another $1 for Wii transfer users? That's as much as $11 for one consumer for Super Mario Bros. 1 (assuming there was no ambassadorship).

Augh, I got distracted by Internet and forgot my point.

Ah yes, there's also "how do you make it work"? You could have a PS+ model where games get phased out and redeemed titles remain available to subscribers, or you could use a Netflix/movie model, but that presents a "looming deadline" to finish your games, a feeling few enjoy and would be very "un-Nintendo-like."

...

I would really like such a service, I'm just being a realist about the business ramifications...

...

Eh, no one notices my posts anyway. :p
I think that's fair. The N64 on 3DS was only a very small portion of my suggestion, and definitely is not required. (Though it'd be nice if they could get that working...)

I think something like a modified PS+ service would be best.
 

Metallix87

Member
Lesson 2: Two platforms is one too many...

As I mentioned earlier, for the last few years Nintendo has consistently failed to provide a full software release schedule for at least one of their systems, the worst offender being the Wii during its last ~2 years. Not only have they underestimated difficulties in software development but also unreasonably expected third parties to pick up the slack in their place. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo is in the unique position that first party software dominates their platforms and is directly linked to their success in the market. With rising development costs, third party relations in the gutter and Nintendo's conservative approach to expansion it will only get worse.

Nintendo, please don't ever listen to this person.
 

royalan

Member
I need a compelling reason as to why you think they should price their next console at $99. So far all you have done is argue that it's weaker than the competition. So what? We already know that the system is selling at a loss at 349/299. How on Earth would $99 help anything? Or $159 for that matter?? We'd have to regress to Wii like visuals.

Just because the Wii U does not currently receive multiplat games does not mean the system is being sold on first party games alone. Nintendo have always attracted a different range of games from third parties - if anything, OP hit the nail on the head by suggesting they focus on indies.

This was a more viable strategy a year ago when we didn't have a full grasp of MS and Sony's next gen plans with Indies. Now, however, it doesn't make much sense to treat Indies as Nintendo's potential saving grace when practically everyone is focusing on Indies now, AND more aggressively. In the past few months MS and Sony have substantially stepped up their focus on Indie games and have just about eclipsed Nintendo's efforts.

Not saying Nintendo shouldn't court Indies, but Indie games aren't some magic salve just sitting around waiting for Nintendo. Nintendo's going to have to fight for those games just like everything else.

Ultimately, suggesting that Nintendo focus on any one particular type of game is a futile argument. It doesn't address the real problem, and that's Nintendo inability (or neglect) to cultivate a large audience that will be receptive to and purchase 3rd party games. It doesn't matter if Nintendo courts the next big AAA or tries to lure in the next big startup, they're not going to get that dedication from developers of any sort if they don't begin to seriously address the stigma that people only buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games and very little else.
 

JordanN

Banned
I need a compelling reason as to why you think they should price their next console at $99. So far all you have done is argue that it's weaker than the competition. So what? We already know that the system is selling at a loss at 349/299. How on Earth would $99 help anything? Or $159 for that matter?? We'd have to regress to Wii like visuals.

It's weaker, it has inferior third party support, it's bad in other departments (i.e online). Their consoles are not fit to be the same price as everyone else without it either a) looking weird/overpriced b) justifying value off a tacked on premium.
Nintendo selling it for a loss was their dumb mistake which is kind of funny, since why are they engaging in such warfare in the first place? Was Wii even sold for a loss?

And why do the visuals matter? You can bet Nintendo has not produced anything rivaling Sony/MS nexts system let alone other third parties. All arguments of Nintendo flaunting graphics should be dropped when their consoles do not even prioritize it. I also hear the Gamecube shamed for pushing graphics and the Wii praised for being weak so what is it? Was the Gamecube right, was the Wii wrong? Why? Also, what about the arguments that "most powerful consoles never win"? Are you against this camp? Does the "regressing to wii like visuals" debunk this?


Resilient said:
Just because the Wii U does not currently receive multiplat games does not mean the system is being sold on first party games alone. Nintendo have always attracted a different range of games from third parties - if anything, OP hit the nail on the head by suggesting they focus on indies.
I actually wanted to type something on indies. Something that was actually a scary fact about Nintendo. I do not know how to condense it in a small paragraph right now though.

However, I'm not sure Indies is really a great defense since well, I don't think Sony and MS are stupid. They can focus on indies as well if they're not doing so already. So indies are on other consoles, how is Nintendo's system special again besides the first parties?

Also, you can't deny first party are Nintendo's strongest pull. What other third party games even sell like Mario that was not on the Wii? Historically, it has always been their games from the N64 going forward.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Nintendo selling it for a loss was their dumb mistake which is kind of funny, since why are they engaging in such warfare in the first place? Was Wii even sold for a loss?
They're selling it at a loss because of product movement b0mb@.

Let's say Nintendo bought parts for about 20 million Wii U-s. They only managed to sell about 3.6 million consoles, thus each unit ended up being more expensive than initially predicted, since parts cost was a lump sum which needed to be spread over units sold in order to be amortised. It was the same unfortunate miscalculation they made with the 3DS (who ended up being sold at a considerable loss as well; in fact, I suspect it still is, though at a smaller loss now).
 

Bedlam

Member
I just want a console with no gimmicks from Nintendo, like it used to be. No 3D, no second screen, no motion controls. Just give me a nice controller and that's it.

Seriously, all those gimmicks have kept me from buy anything from Nintendo since the Gamecube.
 
I want cutting edge hardware with Nintendo games. I'll also happily pay for it. The problem Nintendo had is they made something more for the core gamer (they're the ones buying Wii Us and games) but didn't go the whole hog.

Give up this cheap, energy efficient bollocks and cater to core first and foremost. Mainstream will follow if you're smart.

This. I don't think the compact, energy efficiency is what people responded to in the Wii. It ended up holding back the WiiU.
 

orioto

Good Art™
Everyone knows what they should do now. OP is mainly right. I just hope Nintendo knows to.

Wait till 3DS fades.
Release a perfect one screen console, the more powerfull you can for a 199$ price point.
Give it everything it needs so no type of games are uncomfortable with it. Make it ergonomic, with a 5 inch 720p screen. Make it way better than the 3ds in term of os, using the good ideas of the WiiU (the Miiverse).

Give it a way to output on TV, in 720p (downgrade!).
If you find the way to have something stronger than 3DS, while being an alternative to a home console. Sales will automatically be huge in the world.

Realize what it means. As a home console, that means it will have Animal Crossing, Pokemon...

This is a fact. Nintendo's best home console is now its portable!

It's really almost too easy.
Just one thing. To not only relates on that logic, and to find a additional strength. Build strong local multiplier games using the portable and the tv. Also build strong games using the connection. Don't use it as only a way to play the games on tv. You have to make that connection a marketable strength.

Then profit.
You now have all your resources focused on one only console, being able to create multi million sellers regularly.

As the console is now powerfull enough to output nice graphics (let's say 360 level), every major jap dev decides to release their main sequels on your system.
 

Tokieda

Member
You've written the post as if the 3DS is a failure, or a disappointment.
I don't consider the 2DS as a reaction to poor sales, but rather an effort to specifically cater to a certain demographic.

It might not be reaching DS levels, but the platform is a success. Although I do agree with many of your points, I think your failing to understand Nintendo's business model. Their biggest problem with the 3DS and the WiiU is simply that their hardware manufacturing costs have been too high.

Oh, and I'd be all over that vertical screen.
 

Coolwhip

Banned
My idea/fanfiction for Nintendo's next console and handheld called Nintendo Next and Nintendo Pocket:

- Both the console and handheld have the same architecture and controls so all Nintendo Next games will be downported with minimal effort to Nintendo Pocket. Fixing the software drought problems. You only have to buy a game once.

- Nintendo Next: a $250 console that is optimised for 1080/60 gaming. Two control options, an improved Wii mote and an improved Wavebird. All games support both.

- Nintendo Pocket: a $150 handheld that is a sequel to the GBA, so basically a Nintendo version Vita.

The angle: cheap, family friendly gaming, indie gaming and all the netflix, Hulu and so on apps.

Oh and bring back the Nintendo seal of quality.
 
You've written the post as if the 3DS is a failure, or a disappointment.
I don't consider the 2DS as a reaction to poor sales, but rather an effort to specifically cater to a certain demographic. .

I don't think that's his whole thing, I love my 3DS, but it was a shit time to be an owner of the system in its first year, before 3D Land came along. They could have done a lot of things better.
 

zoukka

Member
Lesson from Wii U: find a focus for your platform and follow the times on rudimentary stuff like online and audio/video outputs.

Lesson from 3DS: never try to fit home console experiences on a handheld (well more like a lesson learned from psp/vita)
 

Chao

Member
Lesson 1: ignore forum goers on most important business decisions.
This.


Do people really think that a company like Nintendo doesn't have a plan?
Stuff they consider screw ups (like pricing) are part of that plan they are sticking to. We don't know why the did this, but I'm sure they did a lot of research and concluded the best way of action for them was to release 3ds and wiiu for those prices.

They probably know wiiu would sell like shit in the beginning, but we don't know the full story or what kind of effect are they trying to achieve. Maybe their plan was to wait for ps4 and xone to release to start with the second part of the plan.

We can only imagine, we don't know shit.
 

Shiggy

Member
This.


Do people really think that a company like Nintendo doesn't have a plan?
Stuff they consider screw ups (like pricing) are part of that plan they are sticking to. We don't know why the did this, but I'm sure they did a lot of research and concluded the best way of action for them was to release 3ds and wiiu for those prices.

They probably know wiiu would sell like shit in the beginning, but we don't know the full story or what kind of effect are they trying to achieve. Maybe their plan was to wait for ps4 and xone to release to start with the second part of the plan.

We can only imagine, we don't know shit.

I think you are absolutely right. I mean, after the E3 2011 reveal, NeoGAF users were saying that the Wii U name was going to confuse customers. Of course it did, but that was a strategic decision. It was all part of their plan.
 

ultrazilla

Member
Simple-Nintendo needs to make a damn powerful home console that third
party companies will embrace instead of saying the system is weak/under-powered.

They also shouldn't launch the system until they have a minimum of twelve(yes
I said 12!) first party titles ready. Shipping within a year of release.

I'm talking Zelda, Mario, Donkey Kong, Metroid, Smash, Kirby, Starfox, Yoshi,
F-Zero, Kid Icarus, Pilotwings, Mario Kart, etc

Get a killer line up with a powerful console that third parties will embrace and
you have a very formidable Nintendo.
 

Jackano

Member
Lesson 1:
On thing Iwata forgot in Nintendo's history is that in the past, Nintendo always used somewhat old technology, those who have proved its efficiency over the years. Touch screens wheren't new in 2004, but cheaper enough to add a touch screen to their enw handheld.
Amazingly, it's sony that's doing it with the ps4: They are going back to x86 after trying to develop their own architecture with the cell.
With the 3DS, the 3D screen is too costly and the technology is not ready enough (view spot, battery life): one generation too early for gaming.
With the WiiU, the cost put into the gamepad is too high too. So yeah, I agree that point.

Lesson 2:
You are going right into BS OP. If Nintendo don't release enough software, don't drop one platform, but create more studios instead... The enw building in Kyoto is going in that direction, but think this is not agressive enough. And their geographical dispatch is a problem for the western market (only Retro Studios is developing 1st party games in the west).

Lesson 3:
Dual screen gameplay has proved to be usefull with the DS. Why going back? Clamshell designs are the best to protect the screens, so in the ideal handheld design you will always have the space for two screens.
No need to drop a screen.
Further than that, Nintendo should capitalize on the DS library (maybe the best of all consoles). This means mandatory backward compatibility and digital distribution on handhelds, and Virtual DS console even on WiiU.

Lesson 4:
I'm Ok with OP here too, but, like I said for their software strategy, not very agressive.
Dan Adelman seems to be competent and devoted (I'm waiting for his call next week tbh!), but, he is the only one in all Nintendo to work with indies. I mean, he has no team in Europe, and I don't speak about the japanese indies...
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Either follow the OP's model of an ultra cheap cross-platform device or fully embrace the Oculus Rift and all that is required to really make it take off as a functional part of your next console. And make sure you are the first to market with it.

Short of those and I think Nintendo will continue on its downward path(the wii being the outlier or exception to the norm) and will ultimately fall apart in the longterm.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Some good replies here although I didn't read through everything. I don't really care for the "don't listen to forumgoers" posts but I expected some people to try to stifle any discussion as usual.

Some posts I want to reply to:

GAAAAAAAAMES. Lots of GAAAAMES for your device that primarily plays GAAAAAAMES would be just swell.

That's why I think such an unified cross-platform environment would be for the best. Nintendo is big enough to

I don't think Lesson 2 is true. At least not anymore. Yeah first half of 2013 was a bit of a slump on the Wii U part, but take the whole year, with the whole line up of the 2 platforms and the wealth of games is astounding, Nintendo usually puts out that much content in 2 or maybe even 3 years, let alone one.

It's true that they have several games coming up but this is ignoring that the teams working on these games won't release another title for a while. We saw these patches of great software schedules on Wii as well but after Mario Kart 8 is out many of their internal teams won't release anything for at least 2 years and that's assuming they won't work on 3DS. It also feels worth mentioning that the Wii U release schedule would look quite a bit poorer without external help like Platinum (W101, Bayonetta 2), Namco Bandai (Smash Bros.) and Good-Feel (Yarn Yoshi). And even if we take these into account, compared to other consoles which actually have good third party support it's simply too few games.

The only practical change I want to see are cost cuts. Cut the hardware so it costs $200. Produce software that would look and play really great at that price.

If the Wii U gamepad costs $100-150 by itself, Nintendo should consider replacing it with the 3DS followup and bundle that with the Wii U followup. 2 brand new Nintendo platforms that work together and seperately for $300-350.

I'm not sure I agree here. Are you suggesting that they only sell them in bundles? I think that would unnecessarily drive costs up for a large portion of the userbase that wants only one or the other. Considering how most of the second screen functionality on the Wii U is largely optional, I don't see why they would make it mandatory.

Nintendo, please don't ever listen to this person.

Do you want to give any reason why or where I'm wrong?

You've written the post as if the 3DS is a failure, or a disappointment.
I don't consider the 2DS as a reaction to poor sales, but rather an effort to specifically cater to a certain demographic.

It might not be reaching DS levels, but the platform is a success. Although I do agree with many of your points, I think your failing to understand Nintendo's business model. Their biggest problem with the 3DS and the WiiU is simply that their hardware manufacturing costs have been too high.

I'm not trying to spin the 3DS as a failure but rather show how poor their decisions surrounding the platform have been. The 3DS is successful despite that and is being held back by Nintendo. Nintendo backtracking on 3D by removing one of the system's selling points is a confirmation that it was a bad decision to include it in their hardware to begin with.

I don't think I'm failing to understand their business model at all. I just think it's exceptionally poor and the failure that has been the Wii U supports that.
 
1. They need to launch at a low pricepoint.
2. They need to have a good launch lineup with good first party titles. (This means that they probably have to expand . More hiring or even aggressive R&D)
3. They need to have a good stream of titles the first 6 month.(This means that they probably have to expand. more hiring or even aggressive R&D)
 
Some good replies here although I didn't read through everything. I don't really care for the "don't listen to forumgoers" posts but I expected some people to try to stifle any discussion as usual.

Some posts I want to reply to:

That's why I think such an unified cross-platform environment would be for the best. Nintendo is big enough to

I don't think a cross-platform system would instantly resolve all Nintendo's problems, but it'd be interesting to see, simply to see how they'd handle things like big game releases, if we'd get more or less etc.

"Don't listen to forumgoers" is a silly statement because there are opinions good and bad, but when it comes to Nintendo people do say some dumbass things.
 

Johnny

Member
I'd like to see a convergence of platforms as well. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Vita, only with 5-10" options, a 1080p screen, HDMI-out tied into the charge cable, and controller support for local multiplayer.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
So, if Nintendo insists on their current course, fuck it then, they should not only use cell-phone chips, but they should absolutely update their hardware every 4 years. They shouldn't allow anyone, including their first party developers from "coding to the metal" and only program to a very general API. Each console will allow perfect backward compatibility AND they should allow forward compatibility. Got a Nintendo 128 and the Nintendo 256 just came out? Well, you can still play Nintendo 256 games on the 128, just shittier, and 128 games can be played on the 256 with better IQ and framerates.
 

Glass Rebel

Member
I don't think a cross-platform system would instantly resolve all Nintendo's problems, but it'd be interesting to see, simply to see how they'd handle things like big game releases, if we'd get more or less etc.

I don't think so either but it'd go a long way in fixing some of them. A few posters have raised the point that it would diminish sales of their major franchises since they can't

"Don't listen to forumgoers" is a silly statement because there are opinions good and bad, but when it comes to Nintendo people do say some dumbass things.

I don't think anything I said in the OP was particularly silly though :)

So, if Nintendo insists on their current course, fuck it then, they should not only use cell-phone chips, but they should absolutely update their hardware every 4 years. They shouldn't allow anyone, including their first party developers from "coding to the metal" and only program to a very general API. Each console will allow perfect backward compatibility AND they should allow forward compatibility. Got a Nintendo 128 and the Nintendo 256 just came out? Well, you can still play Nintendo 256 games on the 128, just shittier, and 128 games can be played on the 256 with better IQ and framerates.

Backwards compatibility, absolutely. Not necessarily forward compatibility though, as that might eat into sales of successor platforms. I think the pricepoints I suggest in the OP with drops 2-3 years into their lifetime are low enough to justify system refreshes every 4 years.
 
This.


Do people really think that a company like Nintendo doesn't have a plan?
Stuff they consider screw ups (like pricing) are part of that plan they are sticking to. We don't know why the did this, but I'm sure they did a lot of research and concluded the best way of action for them was to release 3ds and wiiu for those prices.

They probably know wiiu would sell like shit in the beginning, but we don't know the full story or what kind of effect are they trying to achieve. Maybe their plan was to wait for ps4 and xone to release to start with the second part of the plan.

We can only imagine, we don't know shit.

This is so delusional. Yeah, Nintendo wanted the WiiU to fail, and their stock price to fall, and their financial targets to come way below expectations. If Nintendo knew that the WiiU would sell like shit, they would not have rushed all these announcements on January´s direct, where they announced almost everything they have that´s coming for the WiiU even though it was their policy no to announce stuff so far away from release.

Their second part of the plan is price cut the WiiU by $50 and hope to get more third part support.

FYI, that´s was not Nintendo´s plan. The price cut will make them lose more money since the WiiU is sold at a loss, which will make them miss their target forecast (not they would have achieve it anyway), and send Nintendo further into the red, and losing more money.

It seems like Nintendo did not have a plan besides releasing earlier than PS4 and Xbone. Nintendo has no vision at the moment, and that what making the WiiU tank this hard.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Mmmh...
I have to warn you I'm in the "hybrid console" camp. Actually, I already opened a thread about this theory a few months ago, I support the idea, especially because Nintendo would have to develop for just one platform. This means they shouldn't need to make two iterations of the same brand/sub brand for two different platforms, then more possibility of developing other titles, especially "big" new IPs. So, my assumptions are all based on the hybrid concept.
Here it is

1. Hardware
Let's start talking about the hardware. Obviously two analog sticks, but what about the screens? Many would like to have one single touch screen, but many others (me included) love having two screens. Lots of people loves the foldable design, too, but this could be against having one single screen. But there's a way to have both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT9V0IUujFg

I already posted this video in the 3DS announcement thread, if you remember. Look at this solution, and look carefully at the screen's ratios.
Such a setup would allow for playing games like on DS and 3DS (upper screen, gameplay; lower screen, touch controls/hub/options/maps/etc.etc.), but also like on Vita, with a giant panoramic touch screen when the console is fully folded. It should be done in a way the triggers can be used when the console is completely opened. The console should also support NFC on the lower screen (for Skylanders-like games, easy payments, and any other possible use).
Having such solution + Nintendo Web Framework + Unity support (like Wii U) = easy, easy easy ports of iOS / Android titles, since there'd be one big touch screen.

What about the hybrid aspect of the console? The Wii U in reverse. The handheld platform connects to a separate device plugged in the TV, and then games can be played on the bigger screen, while using the console as the pad.
The two devices should be sold separately at launch, in order to keep costs as down as possible, for a bigger adoption since the beginning; then, on the first Holidays after launch, first bundles with both sold should start to be sold at retail.
Using the hybrid setup opens a third possibility: gameplay on the big screen, controls / hub / options / etc. on both the two screens.

Dealing with tech specs, it should be noted that mobile development is moving fast as hell, thanks to new models being introduced every year, and then new advancements in RAM, CPU, GPU are continuous. Imagining a Late 2016 launch as earliest date possible, and a $199.99 price as highest limit, it's very reasonable to imagine that Nintendo can have a good performing platform (with a RAM certainly better than Wii U; even quite better)with a price not over the highest limit, just by using 2014-first half 2015 components (since Nintendo uses already well-tested technologies), so with a design mostly off-the-shelves. Even better if they don't spend too much for the external/internal cams (obviously, better than the 0.3 MP of 3DS, but it's not necessary to go overboard...2-3 MP?) and for the two screens (they must offer good quality, it's enough). Even more if there's no 3D for the upper screen (;_;).
The separate device for outputting the game on TV should also include an hard disk (128GB), in order to give users the possibility to store games there, and should support up to 6 players (2 with the console, 4 with Classic Controllers / Wiimote Plus).

2. Software
As said earlier, one console = much better flow of Nintendo titles. There should be a steady amount of Nintendo titles for the first months, both important and "second/third grade" (I mean saleswise: for example, Pikmin is "second-grade" commercially...unfortunately).
And then, two big and one mid-high level titles for Holidays.
They should also go deeper with collaborations since the beginning (what about Lego City Undercover 2: The Chase Continues, just for example), especially for the West: Western support must improve, and a good hardware would allow for easy ports of other consoles titles, at least at launch, and the low price makes the offering pretty attractive. Giving in dev kits tools that help porting (like for PS3 & Vita) must be mandatory.
...But without forgetting what makes their (portable) consoles unique: the Japanese support. Since this is still a portable console at its heart, Japan can't be ignored, at all. So, collaborations over there too, like they're doing (it seems) for 3DS, through helping some titles being brought over here. But also giving localization support that helps localization teams of mid-low publishers who wants to bring their content overseas, if not developing tools that helps translating from Japanese to English.

At launch, there should be three titles from Nintendo. What titles?

1. One of Nintendo's biggest franchises, in order to attract both core and casual audiences. One of those titles that is considered cool by both of them. I think a 3D Mario (not 2D, but 3D) would be perfect: 2D Mario is a fantastic seller, but Wii U demonstrated that it's not ideal for attracting people in the short run, especially if the console is priced too high

2. A casual/social title. Since 199.99 is the highest limit, a social title can be exciting for the first users of the platform. Especially if it's presented in a fashionable way, with lots of social features (not just online, which should be present). A sort of sequel to NintendoLand (NintendoWorld?) with a much better look of an amusement park, online multiplayer, and lots of attractions (new and from the original NintendoLand) already included in the game + additional attractions coming as DLC.

3. A brand new IP, much more oriented towards core gamers. Since core are (usually) the biggest component of the early adopters' audience, a great game "just" for them can be attractive. And launch is possibly the best time for a new IP to shine: new console, new beginning, not a big competition.

Indies' strategy should be the continuation + improvement of the current Wii U strategy. Nintendo should create a support studio for the indie titles considered as the most valuable by Nintendo itself: these titles would receive help in development by the studio, and being published by Nintendo themselves under the brand "Nintendo Indie Project", with all the advertising advantages it means.

Also, I think every console should include a special software, something very attractive for everyone. Wii included Wii Sports, 3DS included Face Raiders, StreetPass games and other things, Wii U Nintendo Land (in the Deluxe pack)...so what about the next console? It's an idea I already exposed to other members, so I'll use the description I made back then

Right now, there's nothing that can be considered as crazyness-inducing as the Wii back in 2006 (just talking about "pure" gaming consoles; otherwise, iOS and Android ARE the next big thing). 3D is not the next big thing at all, Gamepad + Miiverse neither, and certainly TVTVTVTVTVTVTVTV won't either.

I believe it's going to be something...software, not hardware. And it would be a consequence of all this recent social focus, thinking about it. Let me explain.

Social and Internet made far, far easier for people expressing their opinions on everything (especially things they don't know a thing about XD ), but it also allowed so many people to express their hobbies, or better...their talents. YouTube, Facebook, Twitter...are all full of photos/videos of people showing off their biggest abilities: how many videos of people playing piano/guitar/any instrument are on the web? What about people singing? And what about reviews/let's play/any possible video content, even short movies?

It's easy to see the impact of social in giving to people the possibility to show what they can do. But we haven't seen this in gaming yet. Or better, not in its biggest form possible: so far, just sharing gameplay videos/photos (which is still great, no doubt). And this is the reasoning that leads me to thinking that the next big thing in gaming is going to be...a game where you create your own game.

I already have many ideas about this software.

First of all, its basic tools should be very, very easy to use for creating games: 2D tools for stages, characters with a little editor, objects, and these are available once you play this software for the first time.

Then, the software should have an in-game store where you can buy other tools, through in-game currency, system coins (like the 3DS ones) or real money. Some of these tools should be also randomly distributed through free downloadable content some months later from their appearance in the in-game store (like SpotPass content).

Once completed, this games could be distibuted just through people in your friend list, or on the digital store itself (a specific section of the whole DD store of the console, called "The house of people's games", or something similar XD), where they can be downloaded by everyone with a console. In the latter case, they should be first approved by the platform holder itself, obviously (and before that, users should see the official terms for distributing content on the digital store, and agreeing with them).

When distributed publicly, games can be priced too: users should have the possibility to put them with no cost or at 0.99 as minimum, all depending by the amount of effort (and money of any kind spent).

The more these titles succed both sales wise and reception wise, the more in game money you earn, money that can be spent in the in-game store.

Another big feature of this title should be a sort of Gold Membership: paying a fee per month (between 1.99 and 2.99), users would have access to many more and better tools, especially for creating (and animating) your own character. But people who have games that sold a fixed amount on copies on the digital store could have access to the Gold Membership for free for a limited time(from 6 months to a year, depending on the amount of success).

Moreover, the games that sold huge amounts could be put outside of the specific users content channel and being highlighted like "User content of the month", for example, for gaining more revelance.

Multiplayer could be possible too, especially for Gold Members: it would allow people to create teams for their games (one doing levels, one doing music, and so on), with a fixed high amount of team members. Still, making a game all alone should be possible without problems.

The only big hurdle I can think of for this idea is the economic aspect: how could people obtain to gain from the games released without being worried of seeing their own money stolen? I thought that something like a sort of PayPal specific for the people who uses the software and releases titles on the worldwide marketplace could work: users should just use their account for registering on the official site of the software (where anyone can see the latest titles released even without entering the digital shop on the console), and they'd have a personal bank linked to their credit card / PayPal account, but it should be always the user deciding when the money can pass from the site's "personal bank" to its real life funds, every time. Obviously, releasing content on the marketplace should be available just for who is 18+ years old: children and teens can share the content created between each other.

I think THIS could be what's going to capture people's imagination in the future: a software where everyone can create a game, of any scope, from the littlest to titles with a good amount of work behind. The choice is up to the player.

Considering this post is already massive, I'll continue later, in a different one :D
 
The 2 screens are great, I hope they keep going with that, or a huge screen that can be divided in 2 if the dev wants.

I hope they do not. I dislike constantly switching my focal plane and attention when playing games. They should just do VR or something if they want to try the gimmick route again.
 
Home console -

Specs -

CPU - An x86 based CPU needs to be used to become part of the industry standard for development and to give Publishers less reason not to support your platform.

GPU - A GPU in the same ballpark as the other consoles. A 176 GFLOP GPU is a joke in late 2012, esp when it's going up against GPU's in the 1.3 to 1.8 TFLOP ballpark.

RAM - Having 5x less RAM than your competitors for games is again just giving third parties an excuse not to support your platform. Some sort of parity must be achieved.

Controls -

Standard controller in the box - Some people love motion / tablet controls, other hate them, give people the choice by shipping with a cheap to produce standard controller and offering the others as an OPTION.

Price point -

Under $250 - If you can't release the console for $249 at launch then don't bother. That has proven time and time again to be the magic price point for Nintendo home console consumers.

UI / OS / Online functionality -

WiiU has made great strides from the Wii by getting rid of friend codes but the whole experience still feels 'vanilla'. Cross game chat ect is a must have in 2013.

A quick and responsive OS should obviously be ready for day one and not patched in over 10 months later...

Launch Software -

Do not even bother launching unless you have one of - 3D Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Donkey Kong or Metroid ready for day one. Starfox, F Zero and Pikmin should all follow inside the first 12 months of release to keep sales momentum going.

Overall conclusion -

If Nintendo needs to take 7 years to guarantee all of the above then I think they should take it, another console that has had the same problems and sells like WiiU could very well be the end of their home console business so it's more important than ever next time for them to be prepared.
 

OzPinoy

Banned
Some of Op post screams of Don Mattrick. Way to turn off Nintendo core gamers. Lucky your not hired as Nintendo CEO
 

Glass Rebel

Member
Thanks for the huge post, Mpl90 :) I read it all but I will limit my reply to the hardware part since I mostly agree with your points about software. I also think that Nintendo will eventually launch something close to your game creation idea, just not as fleshed out and maybe under the WarioWare banner.


Yeah, I remember the video. But while I like the concept in theory, I have doubts about it in practice:

1. I cannot imagine the price of such a device being low. We're talking about two high-res screens, one of which would be foldable.
2. Consequently, it would very likely lead to a short battery life, another thing they need to improve since the 3DS.
3. It is too "complicated". I firmly believe that Nintendo's best bet with both consumers and developers is going as simple as possible.

I simply don't think it's technology worth pursuing. I realize that my idea of a next gen Nintendo plat would kill backwards compatibility with both the DS and 3DS but I think it's time for them to cut off their ties with old hardware so they can pursue a more future-proof model. I know that people will disagree with me but it's time for a reset.

The hybrid model was something I have considered as well but it has a few flaws which led me to the unified systems concept. For argument's sake, let's call the various devices Handheld (obvious), Dock (the stationary device) and Pad (the pad used to play on your TV):

1. The Handheld + Dock + Pad configuration, which you seem to suggest, would make the Dock + Pad practically worthless without the handheld. On the other hand, if you put in too much "innards" in the Dock + Pad, you make it too expensive for something optional.

2. The hybrid concept ignores the portion of the market that does not want a portable device, limiting them to a console that has not only unnecessary parts but is also underpowered. And not only that, it's also too complicated for mainstream audiences. They have to keep it as simple as possible without crossing the line where it's too simple for non-Nintendo developers to follow.

3. Let's assume that we keep the Pad + Dock very barebones to keep costs down. Streaming from a handheld device to a TV would require the handheld to be quite powerful. We're talking rendering at a minimum of 720p here, unless you want a blurry mess on your TV. Applying that to your hybrid, there's two possibilities: Either you make it really powerful, resulting in a device with one 720p screen and one 1280x1480 screen, or you make it run in a sort of powersaving mode when not attached to the dock so you can get away with lower res screens. Either way you're looking at a device that has more power than it needs, driving up costs, simply because it has to stream to a TV.

I liked the hybrid concept in theory but until I thought about it what it would mean in practice. I will concede that they might keep the two screen arrangement for both handheld and console but I'm almost 100% certain that they won't go the hybrid route. It just creates too many difficulties with too few advantages for both Nintendo and consumers.

Some of Op post screams of Don Mattrick. Way to turn off Nintendo core gamers. Lucky your not hired as Nintendo CEO

Mind telling me which parts would turn Nintendo core gamers off or is this just a drive-by post?
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Thanks for the huge post, Mpl90 :) I read it all but I will limit my reply to the hardware part since I mostly agree with your points about software. I also think that Nintendo will eventually launch something close to your game creation idea, just not as fleshed out and maybe under the WarioWare banner.



Yeah, I remember the video. But while I like the concept in theory, I have doubts about it in practice:

1. I cannot imagine the price of such a device being low. We're talking about two high-res screens, one of which would be foldable.
2. Consequently, it would very likely lead to a short battery life, another thing they need to improve since the 3DS.
3. It is too "complicated". I firmly believe that Nintendo's best bet with both consumers and developers is going as simple as possible.

I simply don't think it's technology worth pursuing. I realize that my idea of a next gen Nintendo plat would kill backwards compatibility with both the DS and 3DS but I think it's time for them to cut off their ties with old hardware so they can pursue a more future-proof model. I know that people will disagree with me but it's time for a reset.

The hybrid model was something I have considered as well but it has a few flaws which led me to the unified systems concept. For argument's sake, let's call the various devices Handheld (obvious), Dock (the stationary device) and Pad (the pad used to play on your TV):

1. The Handheld + Dock + Pad configuration, which you seem to suggest, would make the Dock + Pad practically worthless without the handheld. On the other hand, if you put in too much "innards" in the Dock + Pad, you make it too expensive for something optional.

2. The hybrid concept ignores the portion of the market that does not want a portable device, limiting them to a console that has not only unnecessary parts but is also underpowered. And not only that, it's also too complicated for mainstream audiences. They have to keep it as simple as possible without crossing the line where it's too simple for non-Nintendo developers to follow.

3. Let's assume that we keep the Pad + Dock very barebones to keep costs down. Streaming from a handheld device to a TV would require the handheld to be quite powerful. We're talking rendering at a minimum of 720p here, unless you want a blurry mess on your TV. Applying that to your hybrid, there's two possibilities: Either you make it really powerful, resulting in a device with one 720p screen and one 1280x1480 screen, or you make it run in a sort of powersaving mode when not attached to the dock so you can get away with lower res screens. Either way you're looking at a device that has more power than it needs, driving up costs, simply because it has to stream to a TV.

I liked the hybrid concept in theory but until I thought about it what it would mean in practice. I will concede that they might keep the two screen arrangement for both handheld and console but I'm almost 100% certain that they won't go the hybrid route. It just creates too many difficulties with too few advantages for both Nintendo and consumers.



Mind telling me which parts would turn Nintendo core gamers off or is this just a drive-by post?

The screens setup

The cost of such a component must be seen, indeed. If it is too costly, then having them wouldn't be good for having a device with 199.99 as maximum limit of price. But foldable OLED wouldn't be necessary: looking at the video, it's just two separated screens put near each other, with no foldable technology involved. And that shouldn't be that expensive. It'd be just as expensive as having two good quality touch screens, which shouldn't be crazy, by using already-proven tech.
About the battery...well, my idea for the portable device would imply dimensions in between 3DS and 3DS XL, and such a setup would mean that both superior and inferior parts to have the same thickness. Then, the superior part would be more thick than usual, and wouldn't this allow for putting the battery right behind the superior screen? Battery on the superior part, hardware on the inferior part. Shouldn't this be possible? (seriously asking here)
And why would it be complicated? It's not different from DS and 3DS, just with two screens with the same dimensions, and with the possibility of playing at full screen now. It's not that complicated.

The hybrid concept

1. Maybe, having multiple SKUs for the Dock would be ideal.
One SKU: DOCK alone
Other SKU: DOCK + WiiMote
Another SKU: DOCK + Classic Controller
That would make easier for it to be bought at launch, without worrying about "not using" the controller

2. Looking at what's happening with iOS/Android devices, and how pads for those devices are becoming reality more and more, I'd say there would be quite a big demand for a device that let you play great games both on the go and on the big TV screen, with a great price to begin with. I believe the hybrid is going to be the future for all of the HW houses, but Nintendo will be the first one to actually realise it, even if due to necessity

3. Doesn't Wii U already have this kind of technology? And it's underpowered, and customized to keep energy consuming very down. And there are already things like Miracast dongles displaying videos / games played on Android devices. The portable platform should be powerful enough to sustain it...without costing too much, as already said.

Still, what said in my first post can be taken also as ideas for the next portable console without any hybrid thing. Just remove the hybrid speculation, and here's what I think they will do with their next handheld.

In some hours, I'll continue that post :D
 

AzaK

Member
So, if Nintendo insists on their current course, fuck it then, they should not only use cell-phone chips, but they should absolutely update their hardware every 4 years. They shouldn't allow anyone, including their first party developers from "coding to the metal" and only program to a very general API. Each console will allow perfect backward compatibility AND they should allow forward compatibility. Got a Nintendo 128 and the Nintendo 256 just came out? Well, you can still play Nintendo 256 games on the 128, just shittier, and 128 games can be played on the 256 with better IQ and framerates.

I have thought for a while that Nintendo should do this. So long as it's cheap enough or offers so much more than just gaming so it feels like you're getting a lot for your money (like a phone)
 
Nintendo bedazzled casuals with the Wii. There's no doubt about it. But those same casuals aren't the type of gamers to "keep up with the Jones'" and put down 500 bucks on a new console.

So those casuals are still good to go with the Wii. And Nintendo pretty much ostrasized core gamers with their choice of hardware.

My ideal solution? Go back to courting both with powerful hardware and great games for all ages.

Nintendo could sell a $400 machine like hotcakes but it has to have shit under the hood to attract all gamers and a traditional control scheme in addition to whatever wand/tablet/nintendo-esque controller they want to release.
 
I think the next step isn't to chase specs. It's to chase a new experience and then market it correctly with a consistent, appealing message.

Of course, I would like hardware to be interesting. I look at the Wii U and the first thing that strikes me as bad is that there is no camera on the back of the controller. That controller has a front facing camera; but it needs a back facing one. Because that controller should be doing AR APPLICATIONS.

I want Nintendo to redesign the controller by giving it a stronger antennae and a back facing camera. They should start packing that controller in and make it available for purchase in an effort to phase out the current controller. Then they need to start showing off AR games on late night TV. Maybe something where you hunt ghosts in your room that is similar to Face Raiders.

But I'm just rambling.
 
My idea/fanfiction for Nintendo's next console and handheld called Nintendo Next and Nintendo Pocket:

- Both the console and handheld have the same architecture and controls so all Nintendo Next games will be downported with minimal effort to Nintendo Pocket. Fixing the software drought problems. You only have to buy a game once.

- Nintendo Next: a $250 console that is optimised for 1080/60 gaming. Two control options, an improved Wii mote and an improved Wavebird. All games support both.

- Nintendo Pocket: a $150 handheld that is a sequel to the GBA, so basically a Nintendo version Vita.

The angle: cheap, family friendly gaming, indie gaming and all the netflix, Hulu and so on apps.
I would pay $300 for that Nintendo console if it has an ethernet port and an internal 250GB HD.

Nintendo could easily charge $350 the first year and make a profit before dropping the price. The Wii U just looks like a bad deal to a lot of people because the games never showed up. I don't expect Nintendo to ever let another drought like this happen on launch again.
 
Nintendo's next console needs to push local multiplayer. I see a staggering number of Nintendo 64 consoles still in use today because of it's strong stable of local multiplayer games. Nintendo is either reluctant or unable to compete with Sony & Microsoft in the online multiplayer space, they should pull back and become the go-to party console complete with inexpensive, simple and uniform controllers.
 
Top Bottom