• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

News New Batman will be black, DC Comics announces

Coolwhhip

Member
Aug 26, 2019
4,339
13,825
670
Thanks to corporations I now know black lives matter.

I hope they will tell me in 2021 which other groups matter too.
 
Last edited:

DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
Apr 23, 2018
6,113
7,057
850
Yeah, there is definitely some algorithm fuckery afoot. Bing is doing the same thing. And stuff like this



and


while a search just for european people gives us


so it seems like it is something to do with the art or history keyword than "european/white people"

It's actual european art... But you're upset because what's depicted isn't white people?
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
That's clearly the point I'm trying to make. Good for you.

The mystery is "why is this guy Batman?" but you have zero interest in finding out why he is Batman just because of a skin colour.
Comics have done this hundreds of times before, revealed a known super hero to be someone else. And whenever it's a white character being the super hero no one has cared or made a stink about it. The moment a known super hero changes skin colour the "virtue signalers" come out.
I'd guess 85% of this thread don't even read or care about comics but they all have to "virtue signal" about how much they disapprove of this.
 

jason10mm

Member
Feb 3, 2009
3,266
2,653
1,195
It's actual european art... But you're upset because what's depicted isn't white people?
Of all european art, do you think the displayed pieces represent the most popular, most commonly searched for, the most historic, the most notable, the most technically difficult, the ones depicting famous historical figures/events, it anything other than post-modern SJW ethnic fuckery?
 

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
I'd guess 85% of this thread don't even read or care about comics but they all have to "virtue signal" about how much they disapprove of this.

Dude, if you read my posts in this and the other comics thread and your takeaway is that I don't care about comics and that I'm racist then I don't know what to tell you.

Your descriptions of the Future State lineup was just what race and sex they are. Tokenized versions of characters isn't something we should be embracing, it's fucking lazy and the comics industry should do better. Or just continue thinking I'm fucking racist if it helps you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Labolas

BattleMonkey

Member
Mar 5, 2009
32,358
59
965
The writer couldn't write a story about Bruce Wayne or *gasp* create a black character that isn't just changing the skin color of a white character?

They aren't changing a character's skin color? The whole thing is just an alternate universe DC setting where Bruce Wayne died and in the future the son of Lucius becomes the new Batman.

They aren't replacing Wayne, they aren't changing Wayne's color, its literally a new character and a new setting.
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
Dude, if you read my posts in this and the other comics thread and your takeaway is that I don't care about comics and that I'm racist then I don't know what to tell you.

Your descriptions of the Future State lineup was just what race and sex they are. Tokenized versions of characters isn't something we should be embracing, it's fucking lazy and the comics industry should do better. Or just continue thinking I'm fucking racist if it helps you.

Well I'm not calling you racist but you have an issue whenever a skin colour is changed.
Meanwhile it sounds like you were happy to read about Terry McGinnis and not avoid the book just because another white man took over the mantle.
Happy to read a book about a new white Batman. Not happy to read a book about a new black Batman, which is 2-4 issues only no less.
Black Batman is lazy writing, new white Batman is not lazy writing.

Were you upset when it was implied that Joseph Gordan-Levits was going to be the new Batman at the end of The Dark Knight Rises? Did that final scene make the whole movie crap and lazy because they were hinting at a white man swap for Batman?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FunkMiller

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
Well I'm not calling you racist but you have an issue whenever a skin colour is changed.

Uh huh. Sounds like something that would bother a racist, right?

Meanwhile it sounds like you were happy to read about Terry McGinnis and not avoid the book just because another white man took over the mantle.
Happy to read a book about a new white Batman.

I literally said I've never cared for Terry. You really want to put me in that box, don't you?

Not happy to read a book about a new black Batman, which is 2-4 issues only no less.
Black Batman is lazy writing, new white Batman is not lazy writing.

Every character for Future State is race or gender swapped. That's not organic at all and clearly pandering. I'm asking for better representation, not no representation. Must be the racist side of me.

Were you upset when it was implied that Joseph Gordan-Levits was going to be the new Batman at the end of The Dark Knight Rises? Did that final scene make the whole movie crap and lazy because they were hinting at a white man swap for Batman?

Yes, because that was fucking stupid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Labolas

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
Uh huh. Sounds like something that would bother a racist, right?



I literally said I've never cared for Terry. You really want to put me in that box, don't you?



Every character for Future State is race or gender swapped. That's not organic at all and clearly pandering. I'm asking for better representation, not no representation. Must be the racist side of me.



Yes, because that was fucking stupid.

I looked at some of your older posts in the comic threads from years ago and I'll just say that it is sad that you went from being positive about comics to letting your political beliefs dictate what should be a good book/story.

Try checking out some positive sites / Youtubers for comics and see if you can get that love back.

Omar from Near Mint Collectables is pretty awesome.

He is a positive guy and keeps the vibes positive, keeps politics out of his discussions but will still give his honest opinion. For example he doesn't like Kamala Khan and he didn't like Riri Williams to start with but now he loves Riri Williams. Same goes for X-23, he thought she was a shit character at first but has grown to be a great character.
 

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
I looked at some of your older posts in the comic threads from years ago and I'll just say that it is sad that you went from being positive about comics to letting your political beliefs dictate what should be a good book/story.

Haha, holy shit dude. You're looking through my old posts to justify you suggesting I'm a racist? You are a real piece of work and you'd probably be more at home on Reset behaving like that.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
Haha, holy shit dude. You're looking through my old posts to justify you suggesting I'm a racist? You are a real piece of work and you'd probably be more at home on Reset behaving like that.

It was more to see if you have actually read comics in the past and I saw that you were active in the comic threads and positive about the hobby.
Not surprised you took my post that way, oh well.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Calcium

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
It was more to see if you have actually read comics in the past and I saw that you were active in the comic threads and positive about the hobby.
Not surprised you took my post that way, oh well.

The hell would I be this active in the two recent comics threads if I wasn't a reader? It's cool though, man, you clearly see nothing wrong with accusing me of racism or scouring years old posts. As you say, you do you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Labolas
Dec 15, 2011
10,005
26,664
1,265
sol_bad sol_bad doing his customary "nothing to see here" performance for the hundredth time.

The irony of having to go through that same hand-waving bullshit so many times and for rationality and logic not to ever kick in.

At this point I don't think he even convinces himself.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Calcium

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
The hell would I be this active in the two recent comics threads if I wasn't a reader? It's cool though, man, you clearly see nothing wrong with accusing me of racism or scouring years old posts. As you say, you do you.

I'll admit, maybe I was wrong but it's how you come across in this thread. If I am wrong than I apologise for what I was saying.
Still, would be nice to have a comic community here that talked about comics and not just the drama surrounding politics.
 

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
I'll admit, maybe I was wrong but it's how you come across in this thread. If I am wrong than I apologise for what I was saying.
Still, would be nice to have a comic community here that talked about comics and not just the drama surrounding politics.

Yeah, racists always want better, meaningful representation for minorities instead of tokenized characters. Thanks for showing me how racist I am, I'll shout you out at the next klan meeting.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Labolas and sol_bad

Reallink

Member
Jan 7, 2008
6,764
1,914
1,365
I knew this was the agenda when Pattinson was cast in the new film. He'll be killed to pave the way for a new black Batman.


Iron "Man"



Captain America:


Batwoman:


Spiderman:

LatinX, Asians, Indians, and Arabs stay losing. Asians and Arabs are super fucked, the ALM acronym is already taken and super racist.
 
Last edited:

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
8,232
3,948
1,130
United Kingdom
Forget the headline, I’m not interested in it. At actually does it a disservice by reducing a new character down to one trait just to market it. The only thing that matters is if it’s a good comic or not.

You’re a pessimistic fuck if you automatically decide it will be bad, it just just as much chance being good as it does bad.
 
Last edited:

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,198
8,819
790
I will never understand Comics. the gender, and race switching is just fucking stupid. Why not create new Superheroes with their own identity? This always looks like the laziest approach ever. "OH NO BATAMN does not sell anymore what do we do? I know make him black"

Superheroes with tons of different personalities is just fucking stupid. To me Spiderman will always be Peter Parker, Iron Man will always be Tony Stark etc. I am so glad I am an actual Manga reader. Ther characters are actually mean something and when they die they die and not coming back. Deaths in Comics have no ral consequences anymore IMO.
 
  • Strength
Reactions: Calcium
Dec 15, 2011
10,005
26,664
1,265
You’re a pessimistic fuck if you automatically decide it will be bad, it just just as much chance being good as it does bad.
Going on a well-established history of the largely worthless practice of race/gender swaps and consistently sub-standard products this practise results in it's perfectly fair to look at past examples, their results, their reception and use that as the baseline for expectation here.

Such forecasting has far more merit than endless hand-waving and trying to guilt and shame others for not calling something that repeatedly looks, walks and sounds like a duck, a duck.
 
Last edited:
  • Strength
  • Like
Reactions: Calcium and Labolas

tkscz

Member
Oct 17, 2011
9,827
2,154
1,075
I knew this was the agenda when Pattinson was cast in the new film. He'll be killed to pave the way for a new black Batman.


Iron "Man"



Captain America:


Batwoman:


Spiderman:

Legacy characters don't really count. Like if Superman died and the title went to John Henry Irons (Steel). The character was already there so it makes sense that they inherited the title. It's only considered an agenda if the original character has to die for the new one to suddenly be introduced.

Riri was originally an agenda, she wasn't introduced until they had planned to kill off Tony. She was Ironman but when Tony returned, she became IronHeart. Falcon, on the other hand, was always a Captain America character. He first appeared in that book and it makes sense for him to inherit that title (even though there was already two black Captain Americas at the time but whatever). Miles was introduced in an alternate universe to the main one, the original Peter Parker we all grew up with was still alive and you could read either or.

DC is known for trying to have it both ways like with Miles, but it only works when both characters remain alive. An example is we have two Wally West, one black, one white. No one cared for the black one because they removed the white one when he was introduced (and his costume was fucking hideous). They fixed this by reviving OG Wally and simply saying they are cousins. Not hard or contrived at all. They have different views on the world and if you want to read about one over the other you can. Same with Superman, there is a black kryptonian named Val and a chinese super hero who used the name (Justice League of China is just a story about how hard China rips things off) but isn't Kryptonian. Still, you can read about either character without the need to remove the other. Green Lanterns have always worked this way sense anyone could be one, they are just space cops. However they attempted to remove characters like Powergirl with replace them with minority characters (though this would be changed to a mentor student position as well).

I have nothing against the idea of introducing minority characters, but it's always a bad idea to kill off another character to do so. Kyle is a white guy, but a huge part of the DC fanbase back in the day hated him because they had to kill off Hal to introduce him. I love Blue Beetle Jaime Reyes, his book was incredibly well written, but killing off Ted Kord, who was loved in the community, was not the best way to bring him in.

I'll give you Riri and the black Batwoman, those were definitely agenda driven, especially when they'll entire personality is "black woman". But I can't give you Falcon or Miles for this one.

In the case of the new black batman, it's just in an alternate future. Even then, as I said in a previous post, they went a convoluted way of giving him the title. Why introduce an estranged son of Lucious Fox when his known son Lucas already dons a Batsuit (he is Batwing) or why not give the title to Signal (Duke Thomas) who was a robin as well. Two black bat family characters who wouldn't hesistate to take the title of Batman if they had to.
 
Last edited:

TrebleShot

Member
Sep 30, 2020
471
946
340
Cool idea,
Nothing wrong with a bit of something fresh.

How many White versions of these characters have there been, about time there was more diversity not just for inclusion and the representation, but its also just boring having the same takes on the same characters over and over again.

Would like to see a bit more though, always wonder why there arent like mixed european/asian and middle eastern characters. Imagine a filthy rich middle eastern person who decides to be like the even richer version of Batman out there.

All for this and hope to see more interesting spins.
 

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
8,232
3,948
1,130
United Kingdom
Going on a well-established history of the largely worthless practice of race/gender swaps and consistently sub-standard products this practise results in it's perfectly fair to look at past examples, their results, their reception and use that as the baseline for expectation here.

Such forecasting has far more merit than endless hand-waving and trying to guilt and shame others for not calling something that repeatedly looks, walks and sounds like a duck, a duck.
History based is understandable, which is why I think it was a bad move for a press release focussing on black Batman as opposed to just telling the story. Even if it’s good, they’re setting it up to be shallow. Maybe it is, and the whole thing is a niche piece for a niche crowd.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but has anyone commented on the writer’s history with regards to how this individual comic run might play out? Has he done any comics before, and if he has were they any good? Statistics mean nothing to the individual, after all.
 
Dec 15, 2011
10,005
26,664
1,265
..I think it was a bad move for a press release focussing on black Batman as opposed to just telling the story. Even if it’s good, they’re setting it up to be shallow.
I agree.

But this is what the creators / publishers have chosen to lead with as their focus for consumers.
It's like when a trailer for a movie does includes some cheap woke-line in it.
Maybe that's not what their product is all about.
But that's what they've chosen to sell it as at this stage.

And that speaks absolute volumes.
Volumes that committed hand-waving reality-deniers insist don't exist and have no past history of poisoning and corrupting from within, like a parasite.
 
Last edited:

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
7,081
5,187
1,765
History based is understandable, which is why I think it was a bad move for a press release focussing on black Batman as opposed to just telling the story. Even if it’s good, they’re setting it up to be shallow. Maybe it is, and the whole thing is a niche piece for a niche crowd.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but has anyone commented on the writer’s history with regards to how this individual comic run might play out? Has he done any comics before, and if he has were they any good? Statistics mean nothing to the individual, after all.

The writer is John Ridley, his main claim to fame is the movie 12 Years a Slave which he wrote.
He has only done 2 comics really, The Authority: Human on the Inside from 2004 and The American Way from 2007.

People on Goodreads seem pretty happy with his work.

 

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,198
8,819
790
Cool idea,
Nothing wrong with a bit of something fresh.

How many White versions of these characters have there been, about time there was more diversity not just for inclusion and the representation, but its also just boring having the same takes on the same characters over and over again.

Would like to see a bit more though, always wonder why there arent like mixed european/asian and middle eastern characters. Imagine a filthy rich middle eastern person who decides to be like the even richer version of Batman out there.

All for this and hope to see more interesting spins.
How is this a fresh idea? It is fucking lazy. What will mnow change that he is black? Will he now fight the police? Does nthe police now hate him? Sorry but instead of creating new and diverse characters this is the laziest route they could have gone.
 
  • Strength
Reactions: Calcium

FunkMiller

Member
Aug 14, 2014
8,795
27,397
990
Of course, people were just as disgusted when Dick Grayson, Jean Paul Valley, Tim Drake and Jim Gordon all became Batman, otherwise they’d would sound like a bunch of racist fuckheads 👍
 
Dec 15, 2011
10,005
26,664
1,265
Of course, people were just as disgusted when Dick Grayson, Jean Paul Valley, Tim Drake and Jim Gordon all became Batman, otherwise they’d would sound like a bunch of racist fuckheads 👍
"Don't agree with my false equivalences? Then you're a racist!"

A convincing argument if I ever saw one. Great work.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Calcium

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,198
8,819
790
Of course, people were just as disgusted when Dick Grayson, Jean Paul Valley, Tim Drake and Jim Gordon all became Batman, otherwise they’d would sound like a bunch of racist fuckheads 👍
No these are stupid too but at least they do not get celebrated as something was accomplished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Calcium

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
You’re a pessimistic fuck if you automatically decide it will be bad, it just just as much chance being good as it does bad.

As Schrödinger's cat Schrödinger's cat pointed out, there is precedence for this. Marvel tried this same exact shit a few years ago and it did not work. (Captain America was changed to a black character, Thor became a woman, a black teenage girl became Iron Man, etc.) Comic readers largely rejected most of these characters and Marvel has been limping along ever since.

You can't tell me with a straight face that a sweeping change of race/gender across an entire roster of characters is in any way organic. It's lazy pandering and it needs to stop.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Labolas

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
8,232
3,948
1,130
United Kingdom
As Schrödinger's cat Schrödinger's cat pointed out, there is precedence for this. Marvel tried this same exact shit a few years ago and it did not work. (Captain America was changed to a black character, Thor became a woman, a black teenage girl became Iron Man, etc.) Comic readers largely rejected most of these characters and Marvel has been limping along ever since.

You can't tell me with a straight face that a sweeping change of race/gender across an entire roster of characters is in any way organic. It's lazy pandering and it needs to stop.
I 100% agree with you. I’m just a little more hopeful that DC will have learned from the mistakes of others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Calcium

Calcium

Banned
May 15, 2013
3,416
2,169
765
I 100% agree with you. I’m just a little more hopeful that DC will have learned from the mistakes of others.

Cling onto that optimism, man. The comics industry has been nothing but disappointing for me the last few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Labolas

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
8,232
3,948
1,130
United Kingdom
Cling onto that optimism, man. The comics industry has been nothing but disappointing for me the last few years.
My tactic is to not grow up reading anything but Sonic the Comic (superior UK one), buy collected works on Comixology years later, forget you own most of the ones you want to read, and occasionally dip into the collection.

It must suck to see lots of failed attempts at character switch ups that don’t land. Have there not been any new people that were actually good in the last 5/10/20? Or did they all come across as forced and not have much to them?
 

DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
Apr 23, 2018
6,113
7,057
850
I will never understand Comics. the gender, and race switching is just fucking stupid. Why not create new Superheroes with their own identity? This always looks like the laziest approach ever. "OH NO BATAMN does not sell anymore what do we do? I know make him black"

Superheroes with tons of different personalities is just fucking stupid. To me Spiderman will always be Peter Parker, Iron Man will always be Tony Stark etc. I am so glad I am an actual Manga reader. Ther characters are actually mean something and when they die they die and not coming back. Deaths in Comics have no ral consequences anymore IMO.

New characters are ALWAYS being created... Naomi is a brand new character in DC... I believe she's part of the new Young Justice. There's also a new mutant wakandan... I can't remember the name but he's definitely new. But those aren't the only ones and they don't always have the best selling books or they're relegated to side-side-side character status, beside being pretty powerful and interesting identity.

Actually, the Chinese Justice League was a thing... And I don't know how their books fared after I stopped reading. I don't read the trades ALL the time so I'm out the loop on them.

Did you have a problem when Dick Grayson became Batman? Because you know Dick didn't want that responsibility. He wanted to be his own hero. Not take up the mantle of the Bat.
 

DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
Apr 23, 2018
6,113
7,057
850
What happened to bruce this time?

Joker and GhostMaker I think.... I'm getting my comics fix from Comics Explained and ComicStorian on YouTube. Listening to them makes up for not reading comics all this time.
 

Dunki

Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,198
8,819
790
Did you have a problem when Dick Grayson became Batman? Because you know Dick didn't want that responsibility. He wanted to be his own hero. Not take up the mantle of the Bat.
I am coming from Manga/Anime. I think these switches all the time are fucking stupid. I rather want characters mean something. If you lose BATMAN you lose Batman. This is a consequence Character and the world needs to deal with. All these multiple universes, characters is fuckig confusing.
 
Dec 15, 2011
10,005
26,664
1,265
They’re not false equivalences though, are they?
If you referenced and demonstrated race-swaps or gender-swaps then you would have a genuine equivalence.
(Such as those referencing other race-swap / gender-swap episodes in the past in this thread)

You failed to do that. Meaning you made a false equivalence.
You hoped to conflate character-arcs with race-swaps (the singular focus of this story - which the publishers/creators have taken it upon themselves to tie directly to matters of race.)

And, chances are, you already knew this - because of you advertising your intent to smear those who would question your false equivalence in advance by, ironically, labelling them as "a bunch of racist fuckheads".

As such, yours is a textbook example of a bad-faith argument. And, thanks to you, shows the lack of integrity of the argument of the hand-wavers and the naysayers.
 
Last edited:

DeafTourette

Older than air but younger than the foundations of the earth
Apr 23, 2018
6,113
7,057
850
I am coming from Manga/Anime. I think these switches all the time are fucking stupid. I rather want characters mean something. If you lose BATMAN you lose Batman. This is a consequence Character and the world needs to deal with. All these multiple universes, characters is fuckig confusing.

In american comics, we have legacy characters. The Flash was originally Barry Allenm.. but the Mantle of The Flash was passed to Wally West. He actually became the fastest version of The Flash because he mainlines the Speed Force. This actually stayed cannon for over 20 years until Barry came back from the dead.

Any of the Robins can take up the Mantle of Batman (Damian Wayne, the current Robin actually did in an alternative timeline where everyone was infected with the Anti-life equation).

So can one of the Superboys (yes, Jon Kent, the son of Superman, and Connor Kent, the clone of Superman, are both Superboy in the current timeline).

Just like Sam Wilson was bestowed the mantle of Captain America when Steve Rogers was killed (but the govt didn't want a black Captain America).

Legacy characters are a big thing in comics...
 

RokkanStoned

Member
Jan 14, 2018
2,587
3,073
635
Norway
Just like with Spiderman, I don't care about any Spiderman other than Peter Parker. In Batman, I don't care about any Batman other than Bruce Wayne. Good that it's related to an established character at least, however, it's just not interesting to put anyone else than the original in the outfit. Especially with characters whose traumas are inherent to their superhero personas. I accept it the few times it's during a crisis of character, in which it's on a short term basis as the "rebuilding"/rediscovery of the hero starts (again).
I wonder how they'll handle a sense of it being in the future, since that often ends up being mishmashy at times. I'd honestly prefer something like Batman Beyond instead, where Bruce Wayne would still be in the picture and instead mentor the young Tim, as he's no longer physically able to don the mask as Batman. That keeps Bruce Wayne as an essential part still, which makes me far more interesting in reading it.

In american comics, we have legacy characters. The Flash was originally Barry Allenm..

Eh.... no.
Flash was originally Jay Garrick. And honestly, the switching of people donning the Flash persona is a big weakness in the franchise for me. Its redeeming quality is the bigger speedster family, which makes for a lot of fun. That and the fact that speed and time related powers are always hype. But I prefer Batman, Spiderman and X-Men far more. Tried to read myself through various essential issues of Barry, Wally and Bart's runs.... and they were just okay.
Legacy characters are honestly scuffed. At least DC has traditionally made them more bearable as a part of a mentorship, having sidekicks that jump into the role. Still, overall, they just seem like failed attempts at mixing things up, refreshing for new readers, but trying to cling onto a superhero persona (and building up for the return). And sure, in some cases they make sense, as means of pretending that the hero never died/got put outta commision. I can't remember a legacy character that makes me go "yeeaaah!". I'm sure there might be one or two, but I can't remember who they are.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dunki