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Opinion Game Dev Neil Druckmann: "There are games that are just comfort food. This is not one of those"

REE Machine

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I’ll give you two clear examples, both by our friend Cuckmann.

-Nadine Ross in Uncharted 4: Nadine, this embodiment of the strong female minority beating without a sweat the equivalent of two Rambos in Nathan and Sam. Does she beating and humilliating the crap of them adds anything to the story? Not at all, it’s just literally feminist fanservice. SJW porn. Forced diversity.

-Nate’s daughter: Nate was intented to have a son, but Neil Cuckmann, influenced by the intellectual body work of Anita Sarkeesian, decided to change it and make it a daughter. He literally tells you he changed the gender for political reasons, that’s forced diversity.

So yeah, there is such a thing as forced diversity as opposed to having diversity because it makes sense and that doesn’t serve a political propaganda, like for example having a roster of different people of the world in Street Fighter 2.
Also responding to you again because cant edit my message, Nadine didnt care to beat them, she even states it to the drakes that she is "just buying time" for Rafe.
her winning is just as stupid as Joel getting a rebarr through his abdomen and still being able to fight his way to Ellie against healthy non hurt men, heres a hint.......its a video game, shit happens.
 

oagboghi2

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And this game is about Ellie. Her relationships. Her struggles. Her story. So many video games explore the relationships of the protagonist: relationships with friends, with lovers and with enemies. Why would this game be any different?

that said, you’re welcome to not play the game but like a previous poster said, you are missing out on so much great content if you stay inside a certain box. Again, you can definitely stay in the box but i invite you to expand your horizons.
“Expand your horizons” = pay 60 bucks to be lectured and spoken down to by an sjw.

i can get that for free on twitter
 

REE Machine

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“Expand your horizons” = pay 60 bucks to be lectured and spoken down to by an sjw.

i can get that for free on twitter
Again how can an agenda which tech is creative freedom be truly forced if you have the freedom youself to not purchase the game. Nothing is FORCED like some of you cretins scream from the top of your lungs.

and how are you being spoken down to exactly, are you going to be in the game by name, did you agree to a casting call oh wowwwwww thats awesome your in the game....oh wait no.....you just have no point what so ever.
 
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Shai-Tan

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It's kind of amazing that people can't come to this very real and obvious solution all on their own.

I'm not even against diversity in games. But I am against forced diversity. There's a difference. Don't blame me if you can't see it.

Maybe if the criteria for “forced diversity” were meaningful, not just a catchall for confused, reactionary whining. If we wanted to stay consistent then we’d have to accept that any singular hero like Drake is also a silly power fantasy. None of that shit is remotely realistic. And it would be just as ridiculous whining about old movies with Michelle Yeoh beating people up with martial arts, yet we’re supposed to believe Nadine Ross fighting two dudes is an insidious plot. Drake taking on 100 mercenary dudes totally okay though. It’s almost as if genre conventions favor named characters... hmmmm

edit: we’ve come full circle now though from the people going. on and on about Drake being a mass murderer, confusing genre fiction like it should follow the rules of a psychologically realistic novel to push a vague, fashionable violence is bad mmmkay narrative to people who just want the games to be games... except when it fits into whatever political whining they’re hung up on

maybe take the time to asses the product for what is before seeking out mostly illusory patterns
 
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oagboghi2

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Again how can an agenda which tech is creative freedom be truly forced if you have the freedom youself to not purchase the game. Nothing is FORCED like some of you cretins scream from the top of your lungs.

and how are you being spoken down to exactly, are you going to be in the game by name, did you agree to a casting call oh wowwwwww thats awesome your in the game....oh wait no.....you just have no point what so ever.
Are the words “forced” anywhere in my post?

i suggest reading the op again slowly, and then reading my post. Maybe it will click for you then.

Maybe if the criteria for “forced diversity” were meaningful, not just a catchall for confused, reactionary whining. If we wanted to stay consistent then we’d have to accept that any singular hero like Drake is also a silly power fantasy. None of that shit is remotely realistic. And it would be just as ridiculous whining about old movies with Michelle Yeoh beating people up with martial arts, yet we’re supposed to believe Nadine Ross fighting two dudes is an insidious plot. Drake taking on 100 mercenary dudes totally okay though. It’s almost as if genre conventions favor named characters... hmmmm
😂 because people are denying Drake is a power fantasy now🙄

it‘s clear you guys are choosing to be willfully ignorant.
 
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REE Machine

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Are the words “forced” anywhere in my post?

i suggest reading the op again slowly, and then reading my post. Maybe it will click for you then.


😂 because people are denying Drake is a power fantasy now🙄

it‘s clear you guys are choosing to be willfully ignorant.
Want to respond on how your personally being talked down to
 

SentientStone

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looking at all the lazy caricatures of druckmann in the thread maybe our ability to detect “phoniness” is proportional to the good faith effort put into getting to the bottom of what other people think not just slotting them into a predetermined narrative

But it’s easier to escalate tribalism with the latter. 😇
 

Shai-Tan

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Are the words “forced” anywhere in my post?

i suggest reading the op again slowly, and then reading my post. Maybe it will click for you then.


😂 because people are denying Drake is a power fantasy now🙄

it‘s clear you guys are choosing to be willfully ignorant.

yeah ok buddy. right back at you going on about a game you haven’t played with zero charity in interpretation and they’re the bad guys pushing a narrative
 

oagboghi2

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yeah ok buddy. right back at you going on about a game you haven’t played with zero charity in interpretation and they’re the bad guys pushing a narrative
What charity do I owe them? this is a videogame, remember?

apparently, according to Neil this game will benefit me greatly and change my life. I need to “expand my horizons” and hear this holy lecture. 🙄😂
 

Shai-Tan

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What charity do I owe them? this is a videogame, remember?

apparently, according to Neil this game will benefit me greatly and change my life. I need to “expand my horizons” and hear this holy lecture. 🙄😂

the “charity” is being civil enough to listen to agree or disagree with what they actually said not just feel good about yourself knocking down a silly straw man version of them. if you don’t take that time then how do you expect other people to take you seriously when you opine on authorial intent?
 

oagboghi2

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the “charity” is being civil enough to listen to agree or disagree with what they actually said not just feel good about yourself knocking down a silly straw man version of them. if you don’t take that time then how do you expect other people to take you seriously when you opine on authorial intent?
no offense, but I really don’t give a shit if you take seriously my “authorial intent.” It’s more than apparent according to the spoiler thread and many others that no criticism of Neil or Naughty Dog, no matter how valid, will be taken seriously by their cult like fans.

the fact that Neil talks about his video game having a message that will “benefit“ me, as if I need a lecture from him, says it all really.
 

Shai-Tan

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no offense, but I really don’t give a shit if you take seriously my “authorial intent.” It’s more than apparent according to the spoiler thread and many others that no criticism of Neil or Naughty Dog, no matter how valid, will be taken seriously by their cult like fans.

the fact that Neil talks about his video game having a message that will “benefit“ me, as if I need a lecture from him, says it all really.

yep, no need to consider that maybe there’s more to it than that when you can seize on a line in an interview to imagine he thinks you’re a basket of deplorables who need to be taught a lesson. the headline almost writes itself. unless you’re misconstruing what he meant. i’m not going to go spoil myself to find out but I have seen enough outrage driven hot takes about other games being beyond the pale from sjw and anti-sjw media to know that speculation is often innaccurate and driven by political axe grinding.
 

Jon Neu

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the “charity” is being civil enough to listen to agree or disagree with what they actually said not just feel good about yourself knocking down a silly straw man version of them. if you don’t take that time then how do you expect other people to take you seriously when you opine on authorial intent?

What strawman?

Dude, we are talking about a guy who literally says his videogames are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian and third wave feminism. A guy who has publicly said he has this “secret agenda” to make all games more in line with Anita’s politics.

How do you want to be taken seriously when you apparently know very little of the topic at hand.
 
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shubik

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What strawman?

Dude, we are talking about a guy who literally says his videogames are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian and third wave feminism. A guy who has publicly said he has this “secret agenda” to make all games more in line with Anita’s politics.

How do you want to be taken seriously when you apparently know very little of the topic at hand.


LOL days passed and you are still fighting Druckman. Serious question: When will you stop? Is this your new lifegoal? What will you do when all the perfect scores will come in? Full blown mental breakdown?
 
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GymWolf

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The opposite of comfort food...So it's like eating fish where you have to worry about spines and piece of bones during every bite?
 
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Maybe if the criteria for “forced diversity” were meaningful, not just a catchall for confused, reactionary whining. If we wanted to stay consistent then we’d have to accept that any singular hero like Drake is also a silly power fantasy. None of that shit is remotely realistic. And it would be just as ridiculous whining about old movies with Michelle Yeoh beating people up with martial arts, yet we’re supposed to believe Nadine Ross fighting two dudes is an insidious plot. Drake taking on 100 mercenary dudes totally okay though. It’s almost as if genre conventions favor named characters... hmmmm

edit: we’ve come full circle now though from the people going. on and on about Drake being a mass murderer, confusing genre fiction like it should follow the rules of a psychologically realistic novel to push a vague, fashionable violence is bad mmmkay narrative to people who just want the games to be games... except when it fits into whatever political whining they’re hung up on

maybe take the time to asses the product for what is before seeking out mostly illusory patterns

you’re arguing with the same lunatics from Era, you might as well smash your head against a brick wall. the only difference is they’re the polar opposite.
 

sobaka770

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Why are you arguing with people who write unironically "Cuckmann"?

Have some love in your heart for these lost souls who are hurting as their entertainment game (which will potentially sell in record amounts and be lauded as the greatest writing achievement in gaming in 2020) does not conform with their ever-narrower position on how the world works. They may lash out on the world in these threads but their true pain is inside, so have some compassion and let them go. You will enjoy the game and revel in its success in 2 weeks and that joy will not have a time limit, let them have these 2 weeks to ease their suffering through words on this forum.
 

lock2k

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Why are you arguing with people who write unironically "Cuckmann"?

Have some love in your heart for these lost souls who are hurting as their entertainment game (which will potentially sell in record amounts and be lauded as the greatest writing achievement in gaming in 2020) does not conform with their ever-narrower position on how the world works. They may lash out on the world in these threads but their true pain is inside, so have some compassion and let them go. You will enjoy the game and revel in its success in 2 weeks and that joy will not have a time limit, let them have these 2 weeks to ease their suffering through words on this forum.

Hurting from what?

I personally don't care about this game nor did I care about the first. I'd rather play Pacman.

Tastes differ. Did you know that?

Backstreet Boys sold millions of records but some people preferred to listen to Jazz. I get that those who are interested in the game might be suffering. But some people are just here to analyze the whole thing, like me.
 

REE Machine

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That's your prerrogative, ok. But would you care to explain? Easy to dismiss a post like that and walk away.
Well ok
You have a point but people say forced because it's insincere, it's not from the heart. It's by committee. It's to be hip. If the KKK was all the rage nowadays they would embrace that instead. It's trendy. They give no fucks about gay people. It's the product of Neil's self indulgent egotrip. And it will be dated as fuck in 2 decadea.

The fact you think his story is insincere is stupid because you can tell that not only is he passionate about the game but he jad the creative freedom to make the game he wanted because sony usually allows that with their big first party studios.

its not a product of his ego trip esp sinceypu could claim tlou 1 was woke because it had gay characters, strong female characters etc but it was before all this woke stuff even happened so that was his vision inthe first place. Originally he thought of the idea for the last of us while he was in college, then got hired by naughty dog and develope games and eventually was given reigns for his idea (this was during the making of uncharted 2 i believe when he was brought on board) so 2006-2009 probably. To think that the idea was thought during these movements is stupid because it was before anything was considered woke while he was in college to have a game where you play a male and have to take care of a mute girl in a post apocalyptic world.

also the fact you think neil or any first party developer would make a game starring the kkk because is hip is just a stupidopinion because its an organization that divides and spreads racism, no buddy would risk their career to do that.
 
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lock2k

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Well ok


The fact you think his story is insincere is stupid because you can tell that not only is he passionate about the game but he jad the creative freedom to make the game he wanted because sony usually allows that with their big first party studios.

its not a product of his ego trip esp sinceypu could claim tlou 1 was woke because it had gay characters, strong female characters etc but it was before all this woke stuff even happened so that was his vision inthe first place. Originally he thought of the idea for the last of us while he was in college, then got hired by naughty dog and develope games and eventually was given reigns for his idea. To think that the idea was thought during these movements is stupid because it was before anything was consideeed woke while he was in college to have a game where you play a male and have to take care of a mute girl in a post apocalyptic world.

also the fact you think neil or any first party developer would make a game starring the kkk because is hip is just a stupidopinion because its an organization that divides and spreads racism, no buddy would risk their career to do that.

Bold part 1 - no, it wasn't as "in your face" as it is now. It was minor. Nowadays the game seems more like a vehicle for him to spread his views than something that services the story.

Bold part 2 - And the SJW movement doesn't spread hatred? Give me a break. It's all they do, all the fucking time. Hear me out, if the KKK was considered cool, he would be on that side. Having it be "woke as fuck" will turn it into a product of the time and it will make it REALLY dated because of it.

The KKK was an extreme example. But this guy is virtue signaling in a nutshell. I would maybe take him seriously if he didn't praise fucking Anita Sarkeesian off all things.

"because its an organization that divides and spreads racism"

BLM is doing precisely that. Spreading division - telling whites to be guilty of being white - and it's accepted and embraced. What is the difference?
 
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Fawst

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can't wait for this game. 7 years has it really been that long wtf

I can’t believe it’s been that long since I worked at GameStop!
I’ll give you two clear examples, both by our friend Cuckmann.

-Nadine Ross in Uncharted 4: Nadine, this embodiment of the strong female minority beating without a sweat the equivalent of two Rambos in Nathan and Sam. Does she beating and humilliating the crap of them adds anything to the story? Not at all, it’s just literally feminist fanservice. SJW porn. Forced diversity.

-Nate’s daughter: Nate was intented to have a son, but Neil Cuckmann, influenced by the intellectual body work of Anita Sarkeesian, decided to change it and make it a daughter. He literally tells you he changed the gender for political reasons, that’s forced diversity.

So yeah, there is such a thing as forced diversity as opposed to having diversity because it makes sense and that doesn’t serve a political propaganda, like for example having a roster of different people of the world in Street Fighter 2.

Having no diversity is the same as choosing diversity. It’s just an inaction vs. a conscious action. You’re complaining about what literally every game developer does for literally every game, only you’re upset about the choices made. In the late 90’s and early 00’s, everything was fucking brown, green, and gray. All day long, the same drab, dreary colors. Was that forced mood?
 

REE Machine

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Bold part 1 - no, it wasn't as "in your face" as it is now. It was minor. Nowadays the game seems more like a vehicle for him to spread his views than something that services the story.

Bold part 2 - And the SJW movement doesn't spread hatred? Give me a break. It's all they do, all the fucking time. Hear me out, if the KKK was considered cool, he would be on that side. Having it be "woke as fuck" will turn it into a product of the time and it will make it REALLY dated because of it.

The KKK was an extreme example. But this guy is virtue signaling in a nutshell. I would maybe take him seriously if he didn't praise fucking Anita Sarkeesian off all things.

"because its an organization that divides and spreads racism"

BLM is doing precisely that. Spreading division - telling whites to be guilty of being white - and it's accepted and embraced. What is the difference?
Yea it was actuallg but it was before the "woke"
Movement before sensitive people came out and claimed force. Bill and Ellie were gay, Tess was a strong female character that Joel listened to, remember getting the guns, making the deal alone at the beginning of the game, taking Ellie was all her idea, she told joel what to do not the orher way around and like a good lil boy he listened. Also the fireflies leader was a woman....hmmmm a very woke idea esp back in 2013 to have a female in charge of a bunch of men who could easily take her out or physically dominate her, but that wasnt the case. Also the fact they had alot of minority characters in pivotal roles as well. So yes it was in your face with its diversity and progressiveness problem is now you have a bunch of baby bitches calling out wokeness for even a woman starring in a game or movie now.

BLM doesnt mean only black lives matter, the problem that people tend to have with it is that they think it means ONLY black lives matter when the slogan actually means black lives matter too. Last i checked white people werent slaves to black it was the reverse and if we dont acknowledge that cross generational problems can exist because pf systemic racism or due to residential schools in canada where we wanted to "take the indian out of the indian" then i dont know what to tell you because if you fuck up a people, a culture, a Livelihood you cant tell me there is no research that the effectsof the past can affect the people of the future
 

Fawst

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Like, holy shit, is Japan forcing big tits on children’s bodies on me? NO! I’m not forced to play it! God damn, I only just realized how fucking puerile this fucking stupid argument is. “Don’t force your fucking diversity on me, a person who has choice about the media I consume! In fact, never make this shit again so that I, the person who doesn’t want to play it anyways, doesn’t have to be BURDENED with the decision!” Fuck all the way off with this absurdity. I don’t think organized crime is particularly worth glorifying, maybe this forced immorality should be put to an end! While we are at it, fuck, make women PRETTY again in games, please! This image of Jill Valentine staring at me from the screen is fucking offensive to my sensibilities! How DARE she not make sure to put her makeup on and get as pretty as possible for the zombie apocalypse?!
 

lock2k

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Yea it was actuallg but it was before the "woke"
Movement before sensitive people came out and claimed force. Bill and Ellie were gay, Tess was a strong female character that Joel listened to, remember getting the guns, making the deal alone at the beginning of the game, taking Ellie was all her idea, she told joel what to do not the orher way around and like a good lil boy he listened. Also the fireflies leader was a woman....hmmmm a very woke idea esp back in 2013 to have a female in charge of a bunch of men who could easily take her out or physically dominate her, but that wasnt the case. Also the fact they had alot of minority characters in pivotal roles as well. So yes it was in your face with its diversity and progressiveness problem is now you have a bunch of baby bitches calling out wokeness for even a woman starring in a game or movie now.

BLM doesnt mean only black lives matter, the problem that people tend to have with it is that they think it means ONLY black lives matter when the slogan actually means black lives matter too. Last i checked white people werent slaves to black it was the reverse and if we dont acknowledge that cross generational problems can exist because pf systemic racism or due to residential schools in canada where we wanted to "take the indian out of the indian" then i dont know what to tell you because if you fuck up a people, a culture, a Livelihood you cant tell me there is no research that the effectsof the past can affect the people of the future

No one cares if Ellie and Bill are gay - no one cared then, just idiots cared about that. It's just that it wasn't CENTRAL to the plot of the game. Nowadays it seems like advertising for the Alphabet People - all they do is talk about this. It gets old really fast. Also, female heroes that can take down men are an old concept and most of them, like Wonder Woman, created in 1941 (before my parents were born) was accepted by everyone and it is a fucking cool character. All boys I know loved Wonder Woman. Nothing about this is new. It's the pandering and the finger pointing who is a new thing.

In the 80's everyone and their mom loved Eddie Murphy. No one advertised Eddie Murphy movies as "this movie has a black actor" - no, he was just Eddie Murphy, bigger than any label, and all white people on earth loved Eddie Murphy, I don't know a single motherfucker who hates Eddie Murphy. You had Cosby sitcoms, you had Charlies Angels... hell... the list is endless. There were always black people and woman in positions of power in movies and TV, this is nothing new.

As for the second bold part, I have nothing to do with slavery. I was born in the early 80's. Slavery was abolished here in 1888, almost a hundred years before I was born. I never did a bad thing to a black person in my life and I refuse to take responsibity for shit I never did. My best friend for most of my life was black before the fucker entered this black movement cult and dumped my company because he started to see me like an enemy (showed his true racist nature to me) whereas my family always treated him like family.

My ancestors came to Brazil from Italy after slavery was abolish - they had fuck all to do with it. They came to work in a plantation and the first generation in my family to have college education was mine (two generations after the first arrived). Most of my relatives are still really poor. I really would like to see their privilege because I can't find it.
 

lock2k

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Like, holy shit, is Japan forcing big tits on children’s bodies on me? NO! I’m not forced to play it! God damn, I only just realized how fucking puerile this fucking stupid argument is. “Don’t force your fucking diversity on me, a person who has choice about the media I consume! In fact, never make this shit again so that I, the person who doesn’t want to play it anyways, doesn’t have to be BURDENED with the decision!” Fuck all the way off with this absurdity. I don’t think organized crime is particularly worth glorifying, maybe this forced immorality should be put to an end! While we are at it, fuck, make women PRETTY again in games, please! This image of Jill Valentine staring at me from the screen is fucking offensive to my sensibilities! How DARE she not make sure to put her makeup on and get as pretty as possible for the zombie apocalypse?!

Watch Neil's videos and read his interviews. It's fucking clear he has an agenda. This comparison is total bullshit.
 

RokkanStoned

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I'm kinda interested in the headline quote. Is there any game that can be described as comfort food?

"comfort food

NOUN
mass noun
Food that provides consolation or a feeling of well-being, typically having a high sugar or carbohydrate content and associated with childhood or home cooking."


From the definitions I find of comfort food it seems to base itself on nostalgia, where TLoU2 might actually be considered comfort food, perhaps due to its adrenaline driving content killing people and zombies and the fullness of its simple gameplay, as well as nostalgic status for a lot of people, especially people that were in their teens when TLoU was released.
Narratively is another part, though with the easy success of HBO series with focus on grittiness, moral questionability and sexuality, it might in many ways be comfort food and a reflection of the modern human.

Then again, maybe Druckmann thought comfort food as merely the concept of something comforting you, whereupon that's a really narrow view of what comforts people. And it doesn't ask itself that it might not exist as merely something that's not even challenging for your food tastes, with complexed layered tastes, but rather as a mishmash of tastes that don't match and certainly doesn't make the viewer feel comfortable, but not interested either. Writing narrative stories is an art, as much as it can easily be a mess once you think you can do absolutely anything, not understanding the necessary balance of various elements and the dramaturgi, leading to just a disgusting grey blob of something. Look at how the last season of Game of Thrones ended up. Absolutely hated and that wasn't comfort food.

So any idea good ideas of what the gaming equivalent of comfort food would be? Something like Yooka-Laylee or A Hat In Time? Using some old formula to create a comfortable and sweet and fulfilling nostalgia?
 

lock2k

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I'm kinda interested in the headline quote. Is there any game that can be described as comfort food?

"comfort food

NOUN
mass noun
Food that provides consolation or a feeling of well-being, typically having a high sugar or carbohydrate content and associated with childhood or home cooking."


From the definitions I find of comfort food it seems to base itself on nostalgia, where TLoU2 might actually be considered comfort food, perhaps due to its adrenaline driving content killing people and zombies and the fullness of its simple gameplay, as well as nostalgic status for a lot of people, especially people that were in their teens when TLoU was released.
Narratively is another part, though with the easy success of HBO series with focus on grittiness, moral questionability and sexuality, it might in many ways be comfort food and a reflection of the modern human.

Then again, maybe Druckmann thought comfort food as merely the concept of something comforting you, whereupon that's a really narrow view of what comforts people. And it doesn't ask itself that it might not exist as merely something that's not even challenging for your food tastes, with complexed layered tastes, but rather as a mishmash of tastes that don't match and certainly doesn't make the viewer feel comfortable, but not interested either. Writing narrative stories is an art, as much as it can easily be a mess once you think you can do absolutely anything, not understanding the necessary balance of various elements and the dramaturgi, leading to just a disgusting grey blob of something. Look at how the last season of Game of Thrones ended up. Absolutely hated and that wasn't comfort food.

So any idea good ideas of what the gaming equivalent of comfort food would be? Something like Yooka-Laylee or A Hat In Time? Using some old formula to create a comfortable and sweet and fulfilling nostalgia?

In my point of view, there is, I made a thread about it this very year - https://www.neogaf.com/threads/comfort-gaming.1539603/

Tetris is my ultimate comfort game.

ps: I wonder if Neil Druckmann saw this thread. lol
 
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Fawst

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Watch Neil's videos and read his interviews. It's fucking clear he has an agenda. This comparison is total bullshit.

How is it bullshit? Your distinction is pure semantics. Quentin Tarantino can't fucking WAIT to show you women's feet in his movies. Does he have an agenda, or a kink? It doesn't matter, because he's the artist in control. Again, you don't have to like it and no one is forcing you to. Just like he isn't forcing diversity; he's choosing to include it.
 

lock2k

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How is it bullshit? Your distinction is pure semantics. Quentin Tarantino can't fucking WAIT to show you women's feet in his movies. Does he have an agenda, or a kink? It doesn't matter, because he's the artist in control. Again, you don't have to like it and no one is forcing you to. Just like he isn't forcing diversity; he's choosing to include it.

Last I checked there isn't an equivalent to Anita Sarkeesian advocating to infiltrate every piece of media to show women's feet so the comparison is total bullshit.

The part where you're right is the fact that Neil is the artist in control. It's ok. He can do whatever the fuck he wants to his product, that's totally fine. But people are entitled to think it's bullshit because it's also freedom to think whatever the fuck you want about a product. I'm all for freedom of thought. That's ok. But we know he is doing this to appeal to the retarded SJW crowd and not just because he wants. He is just like crossfit and vegan people who will talk about it all the time and try to shove the lifestyle on others. That's why I think it is insincere and if it was fashionable to fuck trees he would include a tree fucker in the game for woke points. The guy is a total douche and I bet he is fun at parties.
 

REE Machine

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No one cares if Ellie and Bill are gay - no one cared then, just idiots cared about that. It's just that it wasn't CENTRAL to the plot of the game. Nowadays it seems like advertising for the Alphabet People - all they do is talk about this. It gets old really fast. Also, female heroes that can take down men are an old concept and most of them, like Wonder Woman, created in 1941 (before my parents were born) was accepted by everyone and it is a fucking cool character. All boys I know loved Wonder Woman. Nothing about this is new. It's the pandering and the finger pointing who is a new thing.

In the 80's everyone and their mom loved Eddie Murphy. No one advertised Eddie Murphy movies as "this movie has a black actor" - no, he was just Eddie Murphy, bigger than any label, and all white people on earth loved Eddie Murphy, I don't know a single motherfucker who hates Eddie Murphy. You had Cosby sitcoms, you had Charlies Angels... hell... the list is endless. There were always black people and woman in positions of power in movies and TV, this is nothing new.

As for the second bold part, I have nothing to do with slavery. I was born in the early 80's. Slavery was abolished here in 1888, almost a hundred years before I was born. I never did a bad thing to a black person in my life and I refuse to take responsibity for shit I never did. My best friend for most of my life was black before the fucker entered this black movement cult and dumped my company because he started to see me like an enemy (showed his true racist nature to me) whereas my family always treated him like family.

My ancestors came to Brazil from Italy after slavery was abolish - they had fuck all to do with it. They came to work in a plantation and the first generation in my family to have college education was mine (two generations after the first arrived). Most of my relatives are still really poor. I really would like to see their privilege because I can't find it.
I dont care if you have nothing to do with slavery the fact is like I stated you cant ifnore history and think that bad thing happening to people even way back when wouldnt have a generational effect today. Like i said even with residental schools, the last one closed in 1996 but my greant grandmother and father were in them, beig born and raised in poverty but also a family system that was always wound tight too the point the environment was toxic because of what they did to my family, my culture, my way of life etc. The schools didnt teach them to care love and belong like a normal school, its was set up to butcher the culture out and the effects on it are still felt today between many generations of indigenious people and people like you are ignorant to think "well it was a long time ago it shoulnd bother you now"
A big fuck you to think that it doesnt have an effect on people today especially with trust and community. You have your own family problems but your ignorant to the point where your family is still hurt by those effects.

the sad fact is people like yourself say it doesnt matter that ellie is gay yet the whole the whole complaint is about a "woke" movement which has to do with a gay character, again no one cared for the first last of us, its only when sensitive people came out and thought being woke is ineverything which it isnt.
 

Jbomb19

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“Expand your horizons” = pay 60 bucks to be lectured and spoken down to by an sjw.

i can get that for free on twitter
Maybe if the criteria for “forced diversity” were meaningful, not just a catchall for confused, reactionary whining. If we wanted to stay consistent then we’d have to accept that any singular hero like Drake is also a silly power fantasy. None of that shit is remotely realistic. And it would be just as ridiculous whining about old movies with Michelle Yeoh beating people up with martial arts, yet we’re supposed to believe Nadine Ross fighting two dudes is an insidious plot. Drake taking on 100 mercenary dudes totally okay though. It’s almost as if genre conventions favor named characters... hmmmm

edit: we’ve come full circle now though from the people going. on and on about Drake being a mass murderer, confusing genre fiction like it should follow the rules of a psychologically realistic novel to push a vague, fashionable violence is bad mmmkay narrative to people who just want the games to be games... except when it fits into whatever political whining they’re hung up on

maybe take the time to asses the product for what is before seeking out mostly illusory patterns

“Confused, reactionary whining” is their rallying cry.
 
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Jbomb19

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Last I checked there isn't an equivalent to Anita Sarkeesian advocating to infiltrate every piece of media to show women's feet so the comparison is total bullshit.

The part where you're right is the fact that Neil is the artist in control. It's ok. He can do whatever the fuck he wants to his product, that's totally fine. But people are entitled to think it's bullshit because it's also freedom to think whatever the fuck you want about a product. I'm all for freedom of thought. That's ok. But we know he is doing this to appeal to the retarded SJW crowd and not just because he wants. He is just like crossfit and vegan people who will talk about it all the time and try to shove the lifestyle on others. That's why I think it is insincere and if it was fashionable to fuck trees he would include a tree fucker in the game for woke points. The guy is a total douche and I bet he is fun at parties.

 
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carlosrox

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Quentin Tarantino can't fucking WAIT to show you women's feet in his movies

Which I find annoying, but I'm not gonna go around and piss, moan, and lobby for him to get it OUT of his movies.

I also dislike overly sexualized women in games as I have always found it cringey. Same with FHM style magazines which always objectify the hell out of women. But if people enjoy that shit then they can go nuts. I'm allowed to have my opinion that it's lame but I'm not gonna whine and protest about it. People can have it if they want it.

Sorry for not fitting into your little box.

But men more than love great female characters in fiction.

I know the narrative is men hate seeing women in games/movies but it simply isn't true, and no data supports it.

Remember when Ripley was hated? Remember when Captain Marvel bombed? Remember when Tomb Raider faded into obscurity? Remember when Star Wars bombed cuz the new lead was a woman? Remember when Horizon bombed?

TLOU2 is gonna MEGA BOMB cuz Ellie is a woman AND she's gay! Right?

The dumbass narrative that guys hate women in fiction is utter nonsense. It applies to like 0.01% of the population.

Whether women are sexualized or not is another argument entirely. And for the record I do not like super scantily clad women in games, but I'm not gonna cry about them existing either.


Be like me.
 
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lock2k

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I dont care if you have nothing to do with slavery the fact is like I stated you cant ifnore history and think that bad thing happening to people even way back when wouldnt have a generational effect today. Like i said even with residental schools, the last one closed in 1996 but my greant grandmother and father were in them, beig born and raised in poverty but also a family system that was always wound tight too the point the environment was toxic because of what they did to my family, my culture, my way of life etc. The schools didnt teach them to care love and belong like a normal school, its was set up to butcher the culture out and the effects on it are still felt today between many generations of indigenious people and people like you are ignorant to think "well it was a long time ago it shoulnd bother you now"
A big fuck you to think that it doesnt have an effect on people today especially with trust and community. You have your own family problems but your ignorant to the point where your family is still hurt by those effects.

the sad fact is people like yourself say it doesnt matter that ellie is gay yet the whole the whole complaint is about a "woke" movement which has to do with a gay character, again no one cared for the first last of us, its only when sensitive people came out and thought being woke is ineverything which it isnt.

And I don't care about what you think. Stopped right there. I can ignore whatever I want and I don't give a rats ass about what you think. I had nothing to do with slavery, I was never bad to a black person in all my life and I just live my life with no guilt whatsoever, I don't owe anything to anybody and I feel no guilt. It's really cool to live in peace with yourself (more people should try it).

Also, I was raised by a gay person (my father) and I still don't give a fuck if Ellie is gay. You are completely missing the point. All I was saying is that they made it central to the plot and the game didn't really need that.

Also, drop this whole "people like yourself" shit. There are no people like me. I'm my own person. I'm not part of any mobs or groups. Independent thought still exists and I refuse to partake in this "people like you" or "people like me" the only person like myself IS myself.
 

Fawst

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Which I find annoying, but I'm not gonna go around and piss, moan, and lobby for him to get it OUT of his movies.

Neither am I, so right on! Hard to parse if you're agreeing with me or arguing with me in your reply, but it seems like we pretty much are aligned on everything you were saying, so I'll take it as an agreement.
 

lock2k

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Which I find annoying, but I'm not gonna go around and piss, moan, and lobby for him to get it OUT of his movies.

I also dislike overly sexualized women in games as I have always found it cringey. Same with FHM style magazines which always objectify the hell out of women. But if people enjoy that shit then they can go nuts. I'm allowed to have my opinion that it's lame but I'm not gonna whine and protest about it. People can have it if they want it.

Sorry for not fitting into your little box.

But men more than love great female characters in fiction.

I know the narrative is men hate seeing women in games/movies but it simply isn't true, and no data supports it.

Remember when Ripley was hated? Remember when Captain Marvel bombed? Remember when Tomb Raider faded into obscurity? Remember when Star Wars bombed cuz the new lead was a woman? Remember when Horizon bombed?

TLOU2 is gonna MEGA BOMB cuz Ellie is a woman AND she's gay! Right?

The dumbass narrative that guys hate women in fiction is utter nonsense. It applies to like 0.01% of the population.

Whether women are sexualized or not is another argument entirely. And for the record I do not like super scantily clad women in games, but I'm not gonna cry about them existing either.


Be like me.

I like the way you think.
 

REE Machine

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And I don't care about what you think. Stopped right there. I can ignore whatever I want and I don't give a rats ass about what you think. I had nothing to do with slavery, I was never bad to a black person in all my life and I just live my life with no guilt whatsoever, I don't owe anything to anybody and I feel no guilt. It's really cool to live in peace with yourself (more people should try it).

Also, I was raised by a gay person (my father) and I still don't give a fuck if Ellie is gay. You are completely missing the point. All I was saying is that they made it central to the plot and the game didn't really need that.

Also, drop this whole "people like yourself" shit. There are no people like me. I'm my own person. I'm not part of any mobs or groups. Independent thought still exists and I refuse to partake in this "people like you" or "people like me" the only person like myself IS myself.
How do you know its central to the plot if the game isnt even out yet? Yes she is in a relationship so are other characters in other games, do you have a problem with those games?
We have yet to see where the relationship stands on how much importance it has to the overall story, does a tragic event happen yes but we dont know if that it involves her, tommy, joel, jesse etc. As usual you dont know anything about the game and taking snippets and judging the entire product on it
 

Shai-Tan

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What strawman?

Dude, we are talking about a guy who literally says his videogames are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian and third wave feminism. A guy who has publicly said he has this “secret agenda” to make all games more in line with Anita’s politics.

How do you want to be taken seriously when you apparently know very little of the topic at hand.

The straw man where you conflate two people with guilt by association like they aren't capable of independent thought? There has been a lot of insinuations that it has affected the quality of the writing but I haven't seen the evidence yet.

(And for the record I have been critical of Anita going back well before the forum schism because she makes questionable claims about media effects on society that had been made prior about violence in games and other media)
 

Danjin44

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All I was saying is that they made it central to the plot and the game didn't really need that.
It doesn’t matter you think “it doesn’t needed” he made it central plot because that’s what he wants in his game because AGAIN it’s his fucking game, it’s really that simple.


I will keep quoting this until people understand the concept of devs are free to do whatever the fuck they want with their games.

Yoko Taro: “You’re all free to expect whatever you want. And we’re also free to betray those expectations, however we want. Everything is free… long live freedom…”
 

lock2k

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How do you know its central to the plot if the game isnt even out yet? Yes she is in a relationship so are other characters in other games, do you have a problem with those games?
We have yet to see where the relationship stands on how much importance it has to the overall story, does a tragic event happen yes but we dont know if that it involves her, tommy, joel, jesse etc. As usual you dont know anything about the game and taking snippets and judging the entire product on it

Read his interview. It's full of "I'll teach those bastards a lesson" bullshit talk.

This excerpt is the one of the most pretentious ever:

"So if you somehow have a problem with that, well, then that sucks, but the story's gonna win for us. It's ironic or maybe sad - I think that people will benefit the most from this kind of story are the ones that are yelling the loudest right now, but I hope there's enough in the game to draw them in and just normalize stuff that is normal. It is part of our society and it is part of owning up to an interesting nuanced character.

He is clearly using the game as a vehicle to "normalize stuff", make it "acceptable" - he is clear that art is second to message here. Also, "people will benefit from the game" - in what way? Who does he think he is? He wants to "educate" people through a game? The pretentiousness is baffling. Dude thinks he is diversity messiah.

Also this:

"Getting better diversity gives us better story, gives us fresher perspectives on conflict. And I hope once they play the game, they'll realize it. "

Says who? I mean... Yakuza begs to differ. No diversity whatsoever and it is a great story. Total bullshit statement.

I think I'll retire myself from this conversation as I'm not even a fan of the first game, I just think Neil is insufferable and wanted to voice my opinion about what he said.

The only thing I really love about the first game is Gustavo Santaolalla's STELLAR soundtrack.
 
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lock2k

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It doesn’t matter you think “it doesn’t needed” he made it central plot because that’s what he wants in his game because AGAIN it’s his fucking game, it’s really that simple.


I will keep quoting this until people understand the concept of devs are free to do whatever the fuck they want with their games.

He has the freedom to do whatever he wants and I have the freedom to think it's B.S.

Also, I don't expect anything. I don't even like TLOU. I just think he is a douche.
 

lock2k

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How do you know its central to the plot if the game isnt even out yet? Yes she is in a relationship so are other characters in other games, do you have a problem with those games?
We have yet to see where the relationship stands on how much importance it has to the overall story, does a tragic event happen yes but we dont know if that it involves her, tommy, joel, jesse etc. As usual you dont know anything about the game and taking snippets and judging the entire product on it

If it's not central why does his interviews only talk about that?
 

devDemonik

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One thing that pisses me off about this game is the fact they're using a beloved AAA masterpiece like TLOU to try something new. It's just annoying. It's like, that's all well and good, but couldn't you maybe try this with another game?

A ton of people including myself were anticipating TLOU2 for years. Why can't you just tone down the political stuff a bit for a game this big?

And by the way, I went and read the leaks, didn't want to but I thought compelled after all this controversy. And I can confirm that Ellie's sexuality is definitely not the main issue here. You'll see for yourself if you haven't read the spoilers why this game is never going to be a beloved game by fans.

That said, I'll still be buying it and playing it, as there is a chance that the leaks are false, and story itself is only a fraction as to why I play a game anyway - but I'm majorly disappointed.
 
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Shai-Tan

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Read his interview. It's full of "I'll teach those bastards a lesson" bullshit talk.

This excerpt is the one of the most pretentious ever:

"So if you somehow have a problem with that, well, then that sucks, but the story's gonna win for us. It's ironic or maybe sad - I think that people will benefit the most from this kind of story are the ones that are yelling the loudest right now, but I hope there's enough in the game to draw them in and just normalize stuff that is normal. It is part of our society and it is part of owning up to an interesting nuanced character.

He is clearly using the game as a vehicle to "normalize stuff", make it "acceptable" - he is clear that art is second to message here. Also, "people will benefit from the game" - in what way? Who does he think he is? He wants to "educate" people through a game? The pretentiousness is baffling. Dude thinks he is diversity messiah.

Also this:

"Getting better diversity gives us better story, gives us fresher perspectives on conflict. And I hope once they play the game, they'll realize it. "

Says who? I mean... Yakuza begs to differ. No diversity whatsoever and it is a great story. Total bullshit statement.

I think I'll retire myself from this conversation as I'm not even a fan of the first game, I just think Neil is insufferable and wanted to voice my opinion about what he said.

The only thing I really love about the first game is Gustavo Santaolalla's STELLAR soundtrack.

From what I've read hate, conflict and cycle of violence is a theme in the game that is relevant to everyone including him. It's obviously not a solution any more than Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri is (and may be just as cartoonish as characters get distilled into symbols) but it may inspire thought about it

As for "normalizing" diversity I agree it can come off condescending and is likely confused about direction of causality; however in my lifetime we've also had large shifts of public opinion e.g. with gay marriage that in retrospect appear to be prejudiced in a way that can't survive contact when it's acceptable to be that type of person. Trans is the new "human rights frontier" so there may be some provocations along with hyperventilating about the topic but that isn't to be confused with the people that get weaponized in polarized culture war nonsense

In both cases it's assumed there's a preachy take on it with a smug self satisfied writer lurking in the background thinking you're the student and he's the teacher
 
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iorek21

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TLOU2 will be much more divisive than Death Stranding

My greatest question is if opinion will be divisive among reviewers as well
 
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