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Neil Druckmann has being getting transphobic, homophobic, anti-Semitic messages

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Deer/Dur
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10K+ plus posts here and not one worth a damn it seems. Hilarious. I've witnessed some sad cunt moves in all my years here, but when the best defence someone can trot out in a discussion thread is some Hand wave variation on 'Well it didn't bother me' as if their low critical standards are some magical shield that invalidates all criticisms of others, kind of takes the soggy biscuit of intellectual debasement when all is said and done . Bravo I guess. You win at failing.

Considering the amount of time and effort that went into creating the environmental design, the animations, etc, etc, all of which are done in the service of generating player immersion, lacklustre world building is a surefire way to undermine it at the end of the day, and in that regard TLOU 2 is guilty on several counts, your ignorance not withstanding.
What am I supposed to say beyond that? I explained why thought that it was a nothingburger both in terms of story impact - Lev and the Seraphites are a sub plot, not the main thrust of the tale- and that people moaning about it on "politics in muh vidyagames" grounds are just doing the same reetarded dance we've been ripping on forever, just with a right-wing bent.

You deserve having the piss taken (gently) out if you, which if truth be told is what's really the bug up your tightly puckered little ass. Because "incongruity" sure as shit isn't a convincing justification.

And yeah 10k+ posts over 11 years. Its called staying power.
 
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Data Ghost

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I have just completed the game and I have to say I don't know what all the negative fuss is about. Oh and personally I enjoyed playing as Abby far more than as Ellie.

For the people who didn't like the story and the directions it took, well unfortunately that is the story they wanted to tell, not some nostalgic tale of Joel and Ellie kicking zombie ass.
 

karkaran

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I have just completed the game and I have to say I don't know what all the negative fuss is about. Oh and personally I enjoyed playing as Abby far more than as Ellie.

For the people who didn't like the story and the directions it took, well unfortunately that is the story they wanted to tell, not some nostalgic tale of Joel and Ellie kicking zombie ass.
Most people already came to the conclusion that the story sucked waaaay before the game came out.

This hate is mostly a meme. Most people who enjoyed the game doesn't spent so much time around the internet talking about it.
 
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Jon Neu

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Most people already came to the conclusion that the story sucked waaaay before the game came out.
Well, the leaks made a very good case of the potential of the story being a Rian Johnsonesque subverting of expectations + edgy antagonism + style over substance + muh diversity.

And turns out everybody was right in expecting that.
 
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Data Ghost

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Most people already came to the conclusion that the story sucked waaaay before the game came out.

This hate is mostly a meme. Most people who enjoyed the game doesn't spent so much time around the internet talking about it.
Yeah you are probably right. In my case I played it, really enjoyed it, and now I'll move on and not really discuss it a great deal. Meanwhile the haters will continue to spew some odd misguided hate all over social media at any given opportunity (which in itself is weird).

Never looked at any of the leaks so I went in with a fresh perspective, and honestly I thought it was a masterfully crafted and maturely told story.

I don't want to discuss specific things as to not spoil the story too much for others, but one of the better known 'issues' was LGBTQ. Personally why anyone would be bothered that there was a gay relationship in a mature game in 2020 is beyond me. I presume that must be the more immature/younger audience (who probably shouldn't be playing the game anyway) or certain cultures who hate anything gay and want to kill them (whilst often surpressing and hating themselves for their own desires).

Also the way they handled Joel had some people throwing an absolute tantrum, and to those people I say: please grow up.
 
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Jon Neu

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Personally why anyone would be bothered that there was a gay relationship in a mature game in 2020 is beyond me.
Imagine still believing that people are criticizing the game because there are gay people on it.

It's the ultimate strawman.

Also the way they handled Joel had some people throwing an absolute tantrum, and to those people I say: please grow up.
-I don't like how they killed this beloved character, his death could have been wrote much better.

-You're mad they killed your favourite character? Grow up, you're so inmature!

It really makes you think.
 

bishopcruz

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Yeah you are probably right. In my case I played it, really enjoyed it, and now I'll move on and not really discuss it a great deal. Meanwhile the haters will continue to spew some odd misguided hate all over social media at any given opportunity (which in itself is weird).

Never looked at any of the leaks so I went in with a fresh perspective, and honestly I thought it was a masterfully crafted and maturely told story.

I don't want to discuss specific things as to not spoil the story too much for others, but one of the better known 'issues' was LGBTQ. Personally why anyone would be bothered that there was a gay relationship in a mature game in 2020 is beyond me. I presume that must be the more immature/younger audience (who probably shouldn't be playing the game anyway) or certain cultures who hate anything gay and want to kill them (whilst often surpressing and hating themselves for their own desires).

Also the way they handled Joel had some people throwing an absolute tantrum, and to those people I say: please grow up.
Someone doesn't like a thing I like, and they are discussing why on the internet! The HORROR.

Let me then make it seem that the main reasons they don't like the game are because of a gay character that was known to be gay 7 years ago! Not the fact that the story is a sloppily constructed mess that was clearly cobbled together with whatever they had left after nearly completely axing two major areas of the game. And now let me assume that anyone who doesn't like the game is immature and young as that is just classy.
 
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UnNamed

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I left this thread some time ago, I just want to know if I can partecipate again or are we still at the point
I hated the game and Druckman said something really stupid, harassment and death threat are well deserved.
 
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Jon Neu

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I left this thread some time ago, I just want to know if I can partecipate again or are we still at the point
I hated the game and Druckman said something really stupid, harassment and death threat are well deserved.
No, we still advocate for Cuckmann to be publicly tortured and beheaded. Like William Wallace in Braveheart.


It's just me every time I read ND Agenda I imagine Illuminati guys who want to control our minds with chemical trails?
That's weird.

I just picture Cuckmann saying he has a secret agenda, that he introduces a political message by the design of his characters alone and that his games are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian.

And by picture I mean that I remember those things he said. Like in real life.
 
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Clear

Deer/Dur
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It's just me every time I read ND Agenda I imagine Illuminati guys who want to control our minds with chemical trails?
I know... its just daffy. But then again in this thread there were people asserting the the threats Druckmann was receiving were false-flags or straight up "fake news".

That shit, pushed me pretty close to just stopping posting here. Which I'm sure would delight some people, but I doubt I'd be the only one feeling queasy at the prospect of association with that sort of rhetoric.
 
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Ellery

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I left this thread some time ago, I just want to know if I can partecipate again or are we still at the point
I hated the game and Druckman said something really stupid, harassment and death threat are well deserved.
Still a lot of I hate the game and then proceeding into conspiracy theory mode trying to explain why the game is objectively bad and then referencing the leaks whilst using words like "Cuckmann" unironically.

There is also some good discussion about why people dislike the game (or rather parts of the game), but you know how it is with a small number of people screaming the loudest thinking their own resonating toxic screams inside their bubble are the cheering jubilations of the entire world.
 
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namekuseijin

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I just picture Cuckmann saying he has a secret agenda, that he introduces a political message by the design of his characters alone and that his games are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian.

And by picture I mean that I remember those things he said. Like in real life.
yeah, his talk is some of the worst kept secrets ever
 
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Kadayi

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What am I supposed to say beyond that? I explained why thought that it was a nothingburger both in terms of story impact - Lev and the Seraphites are a sub plot, not the main thrust of the tale- and that people moaning about it on "politics in muh vidyagames" grounds are just doing the same reetarded dance we've been ripping on forever, just with a right-wing bent.
None of which matters a lot to the criticisms I have raised with the game overall

You deserve having the piss taken (gently) out if you,
You ranting about right wingers doesn't really do that though, because my issues aren't with SJW politics being in games. My issues are with incongruity of a lot of aspects of the narrative that actively undermine the games world building and break immersion.

which if truth be told is what's really the bug up your tightly puckered little ass. Because "incongruity" sure as shit isn't a convincing justification
It's not a convincing justification then how come you're apparently incapable of formulating any form of counterpoint?

And yeah 10k+ posts over 11 years. Its called staying power.
11 Years of



Is hardly anything to brag about
 
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Clear

Deer/Dur
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It's not a convincing justification then how come you're apparently incapable of formulating any form of counterpoint?
Because its not necessary!

I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong because you are way too emotionally committed to arguing with me to not continue to double down.

The only advancement in your "argument" is escalating your lame ad-hominem attacks to cover over a decade's worth of my posting on GAF! Which now I think about is emblematic of your predilection for baseless, indefensible hyperbole.

I mean, seriously, this stupidity is supposed to rile me up?

11 Years of



Is hardly anything to brag about
Try harder son, at least my zingers at your expense were funny, and actually on point with the argument.
 
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Data Ghost

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Imagine still believing that people are criticizing the game because there are gay people on it.

It's the ultimate strawman.
If its a strawman then why do I see so many homophobic replies to tweets about TLoU2?

In any case I genuinely don't care if some people hate the game. I enjoyed it, I got my moneys worth, I thought the story had impact, and now I am readying myself for both next gen consoles. I think I only ended up in this thread out of boredom.

Adios!
 

Woggleman

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Agenda and forced politics are code words for we don't like diversity and I see them come up many times by people discussing the game.
 
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Shinobitron

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Most people already came to the conclusion that the story sucked waaaay before the game came out.

This hate is mostly a meme. Most people who enjoyed the game doesn't spent so much time around the internet talking about it.
just because something has been praised doesn't mean there still won't be people disliking it. It's not a meme. Opinions on entertainment will always be subjective. Millions of people hated it and millions loved it, the naughty dog fanbase is huge and you can see the divide everywhere. I just sense a lot of immature critics not understanding this. You cannot debate with someone by just shrugging it off as meme lol, or insulting someone calling them an isim or a phobe, or you just don't understand it, or it went over your head man. that just tells me people don't have the intellectual ability to describe what they want to say.

Just remember like I said above entertainment is subjective no one has the same opinion on anything, people will like or hate things for many different reasons. This thread has shown me that a lot of gamers are just way to protective of something they love.

Fuck I can't believe I actually have to explain this lol
 
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Shinobitron

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We have to be honest in a debate, not throw threats at each other

there are pros and cons to all entertainment, every opinion is valid even if you think its a bad one.
Criticize the game, not the person. Conversations would go a lot smoother around here if people just respected peoples opinions.
 
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Strategize

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I genuinely wonder how this game would've been received overall if

1) The game never leaked.
2) Abby was more conventionally attractive.
 
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Shinobitron

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Agenda and forced politics are code words for we don't like diversity and I see them come up many times by people discussing the game.
No they are not. see here is an example of a horrible take lol
this is not an opinion, your making a statement of fact, this is just stupid.

some have an opinion and would say that a story about a virus infected world should not have for example levs story at all. This is valid and not some code for "we don't like diversity"
 
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Jon Neu

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If its a strawman then why do I see so many homophobic replies to tweets about TLoU2?
You mean to tell me that there are some crazy and edgy people on twitter?

Agenda and forced politics are code words for we don't like diversity and I see them come up many times by people discussing the game.
We don't like diversity are also code words for Hitler was right.

So there you have it, all who criticize the political agenda do so because they are homophobes, sexist, transphobes and racists. And also nazis.

The argumentation of the people trying to defend the game's political agenda is getting better by the minute.
 
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Ellery

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I genuinely wonder how this game would've been received overall if

1) The game never leaked.
2) Abby was more conventionally attractive.
I do wonder the same thing. The leaks were probably the worst thing that could've happened to this game and incidentally the worst that happened to those that read those leaks (intentional or not). I feel like a great deal of people were robbed of the true experience and that saddens me a bit. So yes I think the game would've been received a bit better (except for those that just want to hate Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann. There was never any hope for them) if nothing had leaked. I still believe that it is a controversial game and it will/would have never get/gotten universal love.

About Abby I am not sure. There are certainly people who are intimidated by her, but overall I think it is more about what she did (before Seattle).
 

Woggleman

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No they are not. see here is an example of a horrible take lol
this is not an opinion, your making a statement of fact, this is just stupid.

some have an opinion and would say that a story about a virus infected world should not have for example levs story at all. This is valid and not some code for "we don't like diversity"
They are dog whistles. I am not saying that everybody who dislikes the game is bad or a bigot but words like that are dog whistles like states rights and other words when people don't want to say how they really feel. The hate that this game receives from some corners started during the 2018 kiss trailer and hit a fever pitch with the leaks. On Resetera they actually like the game quite a bit and I notice the same for other progressive minded boards.
 

Jon Neu

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I do wonder the same thing. The leaks were probably the worst thing that could've happened to this game and incidentally the worst that happened to those that read those leaks (intentional or not). I feel like a great deal of people were robbed of the true experience and that saddens me a bit. So yes I think the game would've been received a bit better (except for those that just want to hate Naughty Dog and Neil Druckmann. There was never any hope for them) if nothing had leaked. I still believe that it is a controversial game and it will/would have never get/gotten universal love.
I think you both are indulging in wishful thinking and making excuses for why the game has had such a bad reaction to it's plot.

The people who don't like the plot would not like it if they saw it while playing it.

There are certainly people who are intimidated by her
We are afraid of strong, independent pixels that represent a woman.

You totally got us.

They are dog whistles. I am not saying that everybody who dislikes the game is bad or a bigot but words like that are dog whistles like states rights and other words when people don't want to say how they really feel.
So we can say that everything you say is full of dog whistles disguiding the fact that you are racist towards white people?
 
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Ellery

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I think you both are indulging in wishful thinking and making excuses for why the game has had such a bad reaction to it's plot.

The people who don't like the plot would not like it if they saw it while playing it.
Maybe, but there are many things way worse than wishing other people joy.
Beats living in a toxic bubble only seeing the bad in my opinion.
 
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Woggleman

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On the positive side overall the game has a lot of people that love it. It sold very well even if it didn't beat Animal crossing and there are more people who enjoy it then you think. It has a nearly 50% completion rate which is very good for a game of it's length and it even won a poll of best game of the year so far on this board which is hostile territory. If they made the safe Ellie and Joel buddy adventure that people wanted it would have done very well but people would have shrugged and moved on.
 
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Jon Neu

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Maybe, but there are many things way worse than wishing other people joy.
Beats living in a toxic bubble only seeing the bad in my opinion.
The wishful thinking is relative to your own joy, as you both are obviously invested in defend the game.

It has nothing to do with being an altruistic angel who wishes joy for others. It's quite the contrary, it's selfishness and incapacity to deal with people disliking what you like.

I mean, I had and I have so much joy talking about this game and his political agenda, but you can't accept my joy because it comes from totally different reasons.

I have probably enjoyed this game much more than you and all the people trying to do damage control for it.
 
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Ellery

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The wishful thinking is relative to your own joy, as you both are obviously invested in defend the game.

It has nothing to do with being an altruistic angel who wishes joy for others. It's quite the contrary, it's selfishness and incapacity to deal with people disliking what you like.

I mean, I had and I have so much joy talking about this game and his political agenda, but you can't accept my joy because it comes for totally different reasons.

I have probably enjoyed this game much more than you and all the people trying to do damage control for it.
Great to hear that you enjoyed my personal favorite game of all time more than I did, but I am sad to hear that you see me in that light you just described.
 

bishopcruz

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I left this thread some time ago, I just want to know if I can partecipate again or are we still at the point
I hated the game and Druckman said something really stupid, harassment and death threat are well deserved.
We were never at that point?
I genuinely wonder how this game would've been received overall if

1) The game never leaked.
2) Abby was more conventionally attractive.
I think that overall the reception would have been the same in both cases. Though for some the leak let them come to terms with the story and actually enjoy it. As far as Abby, she'd still be a shit character in a contrived narrative who is just an awful human being. Her body type is unusual and doesn't make a ton of sense for some so it's an easy thing to meme so people do it.

I am more curious as to what people would say if Abby was a man. Pretty sure everyone would absolutely despise her, and I mean everyone. Considering that just about everything she does is the epitome of what some call toxic masculinity.

Our Abigail (m):
1. Beats the shit out of a man over twice her age, tortures him, and murders him in front of his "daughter" as she begs for him to stop.
2. Is the top enforcer for a fascist organization that is known for murdering anyone who dissents in the smallest way.
3. Bangs his who is way too drunk to consent and then kicks them to the curb the next morning. Oh and the ex is dating their best friend.
4 . Beats the shit out of a nineteen year old lesbian, can you say hate crime?
5. Nearly kills a pregnant woman, and is only stopped at the last minute.
6. Betrays their entire organization on a whim, and murders the shit out of them.
7. Likes dogs more than people.
8. And Oked the sacrifice of a 14 year old girl without her consent.

So pretty sure a lot of the woke scolds would fucking despise him.
 
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sol_bad

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More examples? Sure.

-Characters being dumb when the plot needs them to. Like when Abby literally gives mercy to Ellie not only once, but twice. Even Dina asks Ellie why they spared her life, and Ellie responded: maybe they're dumb. Bravo.

-Pregnant woman who is a super important doctor going into the open when Abby literally tells her that she could stay if she asked. Well, obviously pregnant women are brave and stunning, so let's put this pregnant woman in a situation of danger to show how badass she is. Write something that makes sense as to why is she in that situation of danger you say? That's too much work.

-Terminator Abby. The most emotionless bitch ever, all her friends and her crush die because of her and her only reaction is to spare Ellie's life. 10/10 script.

-The embarrassing attempts at making us sympathize with She Hulk. Self explanatory, really. Look, a doggo! Quickly, we have to kill it. Do you start to feel bad for Abby yet? No, well... Look! A zebra!

-The Ending. Well, turns out that revenge bad, dude. We have decimated half the population of the USA, but when the person who genuinely deserves to die is at our mercy, fucking Joel playing guitar appears and suddenly we came to the realization that revenge bad. Are your expectations subverted enough?

-Dina & Ellie's relationship. Zero chemistry and so boring is not even funny. And of course the asian guy had to die so they could make a family. You know Ellie? You could have killed the psychopath who killed Jesse and bring some closure for the people who loved him, but neither you or Dina cared about him at all. Cycle of revenge has to be stopped at this particular moment for subverting reasons!

And there's much more, but I don't remember them all right now and I don't think we have to go through all of it right now.
No reply at all about how none of your points have absolutely nothing to do with a political agenda?

Agenda and forced politics are code words for we don't like diversity and I see them come up many times by people discussing the game.
Jon Neu Jon Neu says that the games story is really bad due to political agendas and then he proceeds to list a bunch of plot points that he thinks are bad but have nothing to do with political agendas.
*shrugs*

If the plot points he mentions have nothing to do with a political agenda than why is he so upset about a political agenda? He also says he swings left politically, but is still angry about a political agenda. Doesn't make sense.

I'm still waiting for him to explain why the political agenda has made the game so bad.
 
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Jon Neu

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No reply at all about how none of your points have absolutely nothing to do with a political agenda?
I didn't felt like to explain something so obvious as that criticism of the plot is not only because it has a political agenda, it's also because it has bad writing in general, regardless of the political agenda. But there you have it.

If the plot points he mentions have nothing to do with a political agenda than why is he so upset about a political agenda?
Again, you can criticize both the political agenda and the plot.

Really surprised you can't grasp such a simple concept.

He also says he swings left politically, but is still angry about a political agenda. Doesn't make sense.
Are you claiming that woke agendas should be tolerated without criticism by leftists? I'm supposed to accept that Anita Sarkeesian is my queen, that white cis males are the root of all evil and that gender is a social construct?

Dude, I have to tell you: you have the weirdest takes.
 

Woggleman

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But Anita Sarkeesian had nothing to do with TLOU2 and the game doesn't say any of those things. Race and gender are not even mentioned.
 

Jon Neu

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But Anita Sarkeesian had nothing to do with TLOU2
You mean the Anita Sarkeesian and his Femenist Frequency videos that Neil cites as an influence on his works? The same Anita that he idolizes and literally thinks she is some kind of brave and stunning hero?

Race and gender are not even mentioned.
Gender is literally mentioned, but you don't have to mention it for it to be all over the game.
 

Kadayi

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Because its not necessary!
Again, your low standards are not universal fare. That you're apparently easily pleased and are happy to accept any old doggerel in your media is your burden. Some of us with a keener eye on the future actually want to see much better writing in games and that is not going to happen if middling writing is continually given accolades just because everything else is seemingly shiny. You wouldn't expect a film reviewer to ignore the flaws in a films story just because the cinematography, editing & score were top notch. How much less so the gaming press?

I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong because you are way too emotionally committed to arguing with me to not continue to double down.
LOL. Projection much? I've been more invested in 100%ing RoTTR these last couple of days versus this discussion.

The only advancement in your "argument" is escalating your lame ad-hominem attacks to cover over a decade's worth of my posting on GAF! Which now I think about is emblematic of your predilection for baseless, indefensible hyperbole.
An Ad-Hominem would imply you have an argument. I've yet to see one.

Try harder son, at least my zingers at your expense were funny, and actually on point with the argument.
You don't have an argument, at best you have an attitude and at worst a closed mindset
 

sol_bad

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I didn't felt like to explain something so obvious as that criticism of the plot is not only because it has a political agenda, it's also because it has bad writing in general, regardless of the political agenda. But there you have it.



Again, you can criticize both the political agenda and the plot.

Really surprised you can't grasp such a simple concept.



Are you claiming that woke agendas should be tolerated without criticism by leftists? I'm supposed to accept that Anita Sarkeesian is my queen, that white cis males are the root of all evil and that gender is a social construct?

Dude, I have to tell you: you have the weirdest takes.
You are the one saying the game is bad due to pushing political agendas so please explain how this is so. Like I said, all the plot points you mentioned have nothing to do with political agendas.
 

Jon Neu

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You are the one saying the game is bad due to pushing political agendas so please explain how this is so.
Where did I say that?

Because hate will find a way no matter how bad things are.
Thinking about how TLOU2 is a game so in Love of it's drama and gritty violence porn, I found really strange that somehow they have missed to include the one thing that would be super widespread in any postapocalyptic world: rape.

In the setting of TLOU2, every female would be so raped, that Ellie would have already half a dozen of sons. Yet somehow rape doesn't exist, because depicting rape means depicting females as physically weaker and at the mercy of males, and that's a sin that contradicts the message that females are strong.

When in reality, overcoming being raped shows far more strength that all the silly muscles of Abby combined. But seems that feminists literally need to overcompensate for their inferiority complex regarding men and have to put strong ass woman in every kind of fiction.
 
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Saber

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I genuinely wonder how this game would've been received overall if

1) The game never leaked.
2) Abby was more conventionally attractive.
Ellie would still kill a pregnant woman, Owen would still not mention that to Ellie in order to protect the baby, Abby would still beat the crap out of Ellie, Joel still have the worst death among any character in this game, Dina would still leaves Ellie, pregnant Mel would be still doing missions, bigot sandwitch, etc, etc

How can one think the game would be received better with a change of a character appearance? Abby being a very attractive woman wouldn't make the plot and execcution better.

The only thing I can see is more people being angry because they bought something thinking those LoU2 ad videos were true(which isn't).
 
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PanzerAzel

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Oct 31, 2019
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I didn't mean to insult you, but if I did... so be it, you had it coming for the word salad dig anyway.

What did I say anyway that was so insulting to you?

I'm sorry but my opinion is that if this sort of thing bothers you that much then you are way too invested in the culture war.

Its not healthy to interrogate every piece of entertainment content for political bias. Hell it doesn't seem like 5 mins ago we were roasting the Resetera mob for doing that exact thing.
"Invested in the culture war?"

Wake up. People are being blacklisted, professionally and socially ostracized, their livelihoods threatened in the industries they occupy, for doing nothing but taking positions on this (by your estimation) innocuous "culture war". People are so invested because unfortunately it's gotten to the point where their very livelihoods are at risk if they dare to question things that goes against a particular ideological grain.....if you make a modicum in suggestion of impropriety......you're done. People always like to try to equate the anti-SJWs to the SJWs......yet I never see the former making concerted attempts to destroy the lives of those they object to, trying to leave their professional prospects in tatters, their social reputations as well, as the latter do. Show me where anti-SJWs are taking such collective initiative to destroy others because their ideology isn't being adhered to and is (heaven forbid) being challenged.

It's not healthy to interrogate all media for political bias, but it is imperative and very healthy to call it out when it's blatantly apparent, especially in this day and age, and as it is with TLoU II. And in doing such, people DON'T deserve to have their personal lives destroyed by the pathetic self-righteous sycophantic virtue-signaling mobs who believe they don't have the responsibility to substantiate their positions, merely proclaim it superior based on the ambiguity of their own moral grandstanding before taking such initiative. Piss off with this shit and stop attempting to downplay it.

This should bother anyone with a reasonable head on their shoulders a great deal, as it does me. Unfortunate (yet not entirely unsurprising) that it doesn't you, among others on this board.

Agenda and forced politics are code words for we don't like diversity and I see them come up many times by people discussing the game.
Right. :pie_eyeroll:

Do you agree that agendas can exist, or not? If so, how do you make the distinction between an agenda existing and such motivations as "we don't like diversity"? On what basis do you claim that, knowing nothing of the person who is making the argument? Do you believe that agendas can be harmful? If so, what's the distinction from those that aren't? It all seems to be very simplistic to you people. Agenda=not liking something. Done. Wow, what insight.

Here's a little clue for you guys: agendas exist. They can be benign, and they can be malignant. Just because someone calls out an agenda doesn't automatically equate their issue with an agenda with what that agenda is pushing. People can fully support the cause of an agenda and at the same time oppose it because it is harming that cause in manner of its execution. Agendas and the ideologies behind them are separate issues!
 

Truespeed

Member
May 6, 2007
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I wonder how Sony Japan feels about all this negative press. I have a feeling Sony is going to clean house over there.