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Neil Druckmann has being getting transphobic, homophobic, anti-Semitic messages

Jun 27, 2020
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I fully support CDPR telling haters and the outrage mob to take a hike because an artist should stand behind their work but I do notice that when ND does the same thing it is a problem for people. Both of them are standing up to the outrage brigade at the end of the day.
One game is out and players hate the story so they want to stand against the obvious agenda of ND and their associates

The other game isn’t out. We don’t know what will be there and will not. We have not the full scope.

Their situation are completely different. And oh btw don’t compare these two mobs. They’re not the same whatsoever
 

Woggleman

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One game is out and players hate the story so they want to stand against the obvious agenda of ND and their associates

The other game isn’t out. We don’t know what will be there and will not. We have not the full scope.

Their situation are completely different. And oh btw don’t compare these two mobs. They’re not the same whatsoever
It is the same thing. They are both outrage mobs but from different ideologies They both don't like the way a game is made and instead of moving on they go on the attack. SJWS and Anti-SJWs are cut from the same cloth.
 
Jun 27, 2020
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It is the same thing. They are both outrage mobs but from different ideologies They both don't like the way a game is made and instead of moving on they go on the attack. SJWS and Anti-SJWs are cut from the same cloth.
Agree to disagree

if you compared the mob before the TLOU was out it would be something. CDPR game isn’t out, TLOU is.
 

sol_bad

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Criticising the game agenda is legitimate criticism. Seeing the obvious political agenda in character designs and dialogues takes away from the immersion and the scenes and dialogues are normally not of the highest quality (the cringe in the bigot Sandwich scene is over the top).

The fact that some people like to pretend that the agenda doesn't exist even when the creator himself says that it exists, and they act all holier than thou criticising "both sides" when they are obviously in one side and always criticizing the same side, makes it incredibly disingenuous when people try to claim that the political agenda isn't a valid criticism.
Some people just don't give a shit.
If you are going to say putting a lesbian and a buff woman in a game is an agenda than you have to say that putting a straight woman and a slim curvy woman in a game is also an agenda.
Bigot sandwich? Saying jerk/loser/idiot sandwich would be just as cringe and funny if the scene involved a straight character. No one cared about Jill sandwich back in the day, who really cares about bigot sandwich.
 
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Jon Neu

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If you are going to say putting a lesbian and a buff woman in a game is an agenda than you have to say that putting a straight woman and a slim curvy woman in a game is also an agenda.
Everything is an agenda, sure.

But there's a clear difference between having an agenda of making cool characters for your videogame for the sake of it; or having a political agenda to which you use the characters to deliver your political propaganda.

Bigot sandwich? Saying jerk/loser/idiot sandwich would be just as cringe and funny if the scene involved a straight character. No one cared about Jill sandwich back in the day, who really cares about bigot sandwich.
Bigot sandwich is the result of having to insert your political agenda on the game. It comes across as irrelevant, unnecessary, cringe and preachy. It takes you away from the immersion, like many many other political strings you can see in the game. When you experience a narrative based media, the best thing that can happen is that you immerse in that media without noticing the strings of the puppeteers.

But SJW polítics is so cringe and so bombastic and propagandistic in it's nature, it's impossible for it to not affect the experience.

That scene would simply don't exist if it wasn't for the need of the creator of doing a politically charged scene in which the poor lesbians suffer some bigotry but they react with stunningness and bravery. It's just fanservice for SJW.
 
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Woggleman

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Honestly this whole situation has actually made me sympathize with SJWs. If anybody but straight white men being front and center in a game is considered an agenda I can see why they push so hard.
 
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EviLore

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Honestly this whole situation has actually made me sympathize with SJWs. If anybody but straight white men being front and center in a game is considered an agenda I can see why they push so hard.
Few people seem to have a problem with Ellie, though (myself included). I like Ellie. The bigot sandwich line is ridiculous, but a tiny part of the game and she doesn’t continue along those lines at any other point.

Abby the Destroyer, on the other hand...
 

Sleepwalker

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Game came and went, it's old news, Like Druckmann. Just let him retreat back into the shadows until they decide to totally ruin Uncharted in a few years.
 

Woggleman

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Few people seem to have a problem with Ellie, though (myself included). I like Ellie. The bigot sandwich line is ridiculous, but a tiny part of the game and she doesn’t continue along those lines at any other point.

Abby the Destroyer, on the other hand...
That kiss trailer got a lot of backlash and even the backlash against Abby is absurd. There are tons of ugly men in games but a woman doesn't look like a supermodel and everybody throws a fit to the point that the actress gets death threats. In no way am I saying that everybody who dislikes this game is in this group. There are many intelligent reasons to like and dislike it but it has no doubt attracted some very ugly elements.
 

Jon Neu

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Two years ago I couldn't stand them. I thought society had progressed and had become more enlightened so they didn't have to be so aggressive. I clearly see that I was wrong.
So your problem with SJW never was their polítics, but their agressiveness. Meaning that you are pretty much in tune with their ideologies.

Again, we aren't discovering anything new here. Most of the people that comes and says stuff like "oh, just because the protagonists aren't white males the game is political?" and other marvelous fallacies, are clearly very politically in tune with the SJW ideologies.
 

Woggleman

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So your problem with SJW never was their polítics, but their agressiveness. Meaning that you are pretty much in tune with their ideologies.

Again, we aren't discovering anything new here. Most of the people that comes and says stuff like "oh, just because the protagonists aren't white males the game is political?" and other marvelous fallacies, are clearly very politically in tune with the SJW ideologies.
Yes I am more in turn with the left but around 2013 or 2014 the woke brigade started losing me and turning me off. Ironically they started emulating the right with the need to control everything and get offended at the slightest thing.
 
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Jon Neu

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Yes I am more in turn with the left but around 2013 or 2014 the woke brigade started losing me and turning me off. Ironically they started emulating the right with the need to control everything and get offended at the slightest thing.
I'm a leftist myself, but ideologically I couldn't be more contrary to those ideologies.

But somehow SJW's have hijacked what it means to be a leftist, and now you can't be on the left if you don't suport comunism, third wave feminism, identity politics and the rest of authoritarian and extremist ideologies that are disguided as "progress".
 

sol_bad

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Everything is an agenda, sure.

But there's a clear difference between having an agenda of making cool characters for your videogame for the sake of it; or having a political agenda to which you use the characters to deliver your political propaganda.



Bigot sandwich is the result of having to insert your political agenda on the game. It comes across as irrelevant, unnecessary, cringe and preachy. It takes you away from the immersion, like many many other political strings you can see in the game. When you experience a narrative based media, the best thing that can happen is that you immerse in that media without noticing the strings of the puppeteers.

But SJW polítics is so cringe and so bombastic and propagandistic in it's nature, it's impossible for it to not affect the experience.

That scene would simply don't exist if it wasn't for the need of the creator of doing a politically charged scene in which the poor lesbians suffer some bigotry but they react with stunningness and bravery. It's just fanservice for SJW.
I think Dante, Snake, Ellie and Abby are all equally cool characters. I care not for whatever agendas were behind creating them.

Bigot sandwich isn't the greatest line created no, but it's delivery was done well by the actor and due to this I wasn't personally taken out of the scene.

As to the politics being "bombastic" and "propagandistic", that's going to boil down to each individual persons own spectrum. For example you could take Lev and keep her as being happy to be a girl, remove any references to trans. She simply doesn't want to be married to some pig man that wants an underage wife. It's still highly politicised but maybe to you it won't be so "bombastic" as you can relate to the situation better.
Seth insulting Ellie and Dina? Turn one of them into a male and have Seth insult the female. The male will act all "stunning" and "brave" to protect his girlfriend, try to punch Seth and what not. But people won't call the male in that scene stunning and brave, because they relate to the scene better.

It's actually quite funny, this game tries to teach people to look at things from another perspective but all the haters of the game literally can't understand or accept other perspectives.
 

Woggleman

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I know the pandemic in the game is much more severe but coronavirus has not healed our divisions so what makes you think that the pandemic in the game would cure bigotry?
 

Jon Neu

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I think Dante, Snake, Ellie and Abby are all equally cool characters.
Man, it was hard reading the rest of the message after this...

It's actually quite funny, this game tries to teach people to look at things from another perspective but all the haters of the game literally can't understand or accept other perspectives.
I always love this argument.

It's literally like when feminists are so full of themselves that think that you can't believe in women's rights without being a feminist. It's either you are a feminist or you are against women's rights. It's literally acting like a religion, because outside of X religion you can't have morals neither! The monopoly on morals is on religions and the monopoly on women's rights is on feminism. The similarities of their thinking are uncanny.

But no, sorry; we have been seeing different perspectives since forever and nobody cared, people aren't bigots for seeing the obvious new political agenda and criticize it. The fact that there's people in this thread who believe that criticizing this game agenda makes someone a bigot, it's precisely why this game agenda should be criticized in the first place.
 

sol_bad

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Man, it was hard reading the rest of the message after this...



I always love this argument.

It's literally like when feminists are so full of themselves that think that you can't believe in women's rights without being a feminist. It's either you are a feminist or you are against women's rights. It's literally acting like a religion, because outside of X religion you can't have morals neither! The monopoly on morals is on religions and the monopoly on women's rights is on feminism. The similarities of their thinking are uncanny.

But no, sorry; we have been seeing different perspectives since forever and nobody cared, people aren't bigots for seeing the obvious new political agenda and criticize it. The fact that there's people in this thread who believe that criticizing this game agenda makes someone a bigot, it's precisely why this game agenda should be criticized in the first place.
I'm not sure why me loving all 4 characters would make the rest of what I say hard to read. All 4 of them are great characters.

I'm not calling anyone a bigot at all. I've just given you 2 scenarios where the game could have avoided "gender politics" but you glossed over them and ignored my entire point and actually double downed on what I was saying by deflecting into some alternative narrative. If Lev was a "normal" heterosexual who was happy with who she was and if Ellie was defended from Seth by a male character, the people bitching about the game wouldn't be bitching. But the people who want more diversity would be bitching. It's the same coin with 2 sides.

Using the 2 examples that I mentioned, how would the game be better if they used those ideas instead of what we got?
 

Fbh

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Honestly this whole situation has actually made me sympathize with SJWs. If anybody but straight white men being front and center in a game is considered an agenda I can see why they push so hard.
It's a shame that a couple of annoying people who are probably actually misogynists are being used as an excuse to deflect any criticism about the story of the TLOU2 as "you are just upset she is a muscular woman".

You could replace Abby with a white, straight blonde dude and it wouldn't make the plot in TLOU2 any better.

I'll never know for sure if there was actually an agenda being pushed, because I didn't work on the game. But the thing that does at least make me suspect that it might have been the case is that I think the entire Abby plot line is very weak and uninteresting. It feels less like someone had an amazing idea for a follow up story to the TLOU1, and more like the characters of Abby and Lev where decided upon first and only then did they begin to write the plot in a way that would include them.
 

farmerboy

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Abby did seem to lose a lot of muscle condition after being trapped by the Rattlers. I think that more than justifies her physique in the beginning of the game, with access to decent food and a gym
 
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SlimySnake

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I think Abby's hate is partly ND's fault. I dont know if it's agenda driven or not, but her character model is absolutely ridiculous and its really apparent during the sex scene and when she wakes up afterwards. I understand that some women who are body builders look like that, but i really dont understand why she had to look like that. I played the entire game thinking she was trans. It's actually kinda sexist to assume that women can only be powerful and badass if they look like men.

The other part of Abby's hate that she killed Joel and now we must hate her and send Neil death threats is something I just cant sympathize with. Characters are killed off all the time. it's why game of thrones became such a cultural phenomenon. She had a pretty decent reason for killing him too, and she lets Ellie live not once but twice. She isnt the greatest of characters, but thats ok. Not everyone needs to be witty, clever, funny and charming. She is who she is, and she doesnt deserve the hate. Apathy, sure. But hate to the point you are sending her actress death threats?
 

tassletine

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Portrayed and Presented mean different things and are used in different contexts.
How something is presented is different from how something is portrayed over time.

I'm guessing that the crux of your argument is geared towards reductionism and not about nuance though.
 

tassletine

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Well if people are insulting the developers and voice actors directly with hateful language and vile imagery ... that is a difference to disliking the game.
There is nothing wrong with disliking the game, but it says a lot about the people posting those things (that Neil Druckmann received) on social media.

I have seen plenty of people saying they can't connect to the story and they are thrown off by the pacing. That's cool. Completely fair. There are plenty of things I don't like, but I don't go on social media attacking creators for something personal outside the game. I couldn't even imagine to begin to be that little of a man threatening violence to someone who created something that is completely optional to my life.
I think there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest Druckman etc. was baiting the community in this.
As Druckman himself has said "There are always going to be haters" -- so why not steer that hate?

As far as I can see the hate for the game online is vastly disproportional to the mainstream media complaining that the game is being trolled by right wing groups etc.
The fuss being made by the mainstream does not line up with what I've read, which is mostly about the game just being overlong etc. The mainstream seems to want to make it out that the game is bad because of it's political overtones, which I don't think is the case.
I have seen almost no complaints about this game down to it's social agenda, mainly because it barely seems to have one -- but several complaints about how they changed the story to a limp soap opera, which I think is accurate.

The game is overlong with too many cutscenes and drab incidental characters -- it's a very common complaint, and one that you can level at almost every videogame.
But Naughty Dog shouldn't get off the hook by making those characters progressive or trying to divert our attention towards 'bigotry' etc. -- This is bog standard videogame writing.
 
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Jon Neu

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All 4 of them are great characters.
You know damn right why is hard to read, but you like just to play dumb to reinforce your take of Abby as a great character.

If it was me, I would make putting Solid Snake and Abby in the same sentence as a federal crime.


I'm not calling anyone a bigot at all
I didn’t said you did.

But the people who think like you and exhibit the same discourse as you, tend to do it.

In this thread alone there are a few.


I've just given you 2 scenarios where the game could have avoided "gender politics" but you glossed over them and ignored my entire point and actually double downed on what I was saying by deflecting into some alternative narrative
Seems to me you are the one indulging in deflecting by using alternative narratives.


If Lev was a "normal" heterosexual who was happy with who she was and if Ellie was defended from Seth by a male character, the people bitching about the game wouldn't be bitching. But the people who want more diversity would be bitching. It's the same coin with 2 sides
There’s still a difference you aren’t capable to grasp yet. People who “bitch” about the agenda aren’t bitching about trans or lesbians, they are criticizing the political agenda behind all those decisions. It doesn’t matter if you change the sex or the sexual preferences of the characters

You can make any character without it’s gender being a political weapon. You are clearly on the side with the people obsessed about the gender and who their videogame characters want to fuck, I am with the people who think that’s a silly politization of videogames.

They are not the same, at all.


Using the 2 examples that I mentioned, how would the game be better if they used those ideas instead of what we got
Well, for starters if ND didn’t spend so much time trying to make a political message out of it’s characters and games, they could actually take more time and more freedom (SJW rules are very constricted) to actually make better scripts.

Before the game was out we knew there was going to be some cringe scenes like the bigot sandwich one. And we knew it because it’s the logical result of trying to push a silly political propaganda through videogames.
 
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PanzerAzel

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I happen to really like the game but I can respect those who have a different opinion but when people start talking about a woke or political agenda they lose me. It seems like some of them just don't gay characters or strong women or any of that to have a large presence in a game. I am not talking about all critics of the game but those who use it to push their culture war.
Why do they lose you? This is an interesting read that further evidences ND's intent and throws more evidence on the pile. Some quotes:

There's an open-door policy at Naughty Dog, Druckmann said, in which anyone on the team can pitch ideas for a game the company is developing. In addition, he said, prominent members of Naughty Dog are part of the LGBTQ community, and a dedicated segment of the company is devoted to finding ways to prioritize diversity in its games. It was a confluence of these things that led to the conception of Lev and his portrayal in the final game, Druckmann said.

"There was a pitch to make a trans character, and we felt like we can make it work with Lev," he said, adding that making the character trans would give the siblings a reason to be running away from their religious tribe. "It felt like a way to make him complex in a new way than anything we've seen in a video game."


------------------------------

Right there in bold underlined, explicitly spelled out by the creators themselves, is the problem. There was a pitch not to make a character, but a "trans" character right from the start. Not to establish values, motivations, or the desires of that character......but only to focus on the most superficial of their traits that categorize it to justify its inclusion to achieve a political end, to, as ND says, "prioritize diversity in its games", and then conform the rest of the game around that in accomodation. Is that how straight cis characters are written? I very much doubt it, heck I doubt gender identity and orientation are even near the top of considerations while writing a character. Why is it alright to place traits in front of characterization instead of building characterization which would then utilize traits, as needed, to further develop it as the plot demanded? The former is what makes it an agenda and makes it feel unnatural and forced instead of vice versa.

What loses me is how people cannot see this distinction in their posts dismissing the claims of an agenda, especially when the creator comes out and explicitly states as much in the methodology of character inception. Are these people willingly intellectually dishonest? Ideologically blinded? I'm baffled how anyone could argue there's not an agenda going on given the abundance of evidence, statements and actions from Naughty Dog themselves, at this point the conversation should've far moved on to whether it is harmful or not.

Given this backwards approach to characterization and narrative in the affordance of ideological interest, hell, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the entire concept, design, and inclusion of the Seraphites was done solely for the purpose of laying the foundation of religious intolerance towards nontraditional gender roles to be able to afford a situation conducive to Lev's plight. A plight, btw, that was massively irrelevant to the overall plot, it bloated the game, and stuck out like a sore thumb considering such a first world problem would FAR reside on the back burner of issues in such a merciless world. That portion of the game largely came off to me as a catalyst for ideological promotion as much as it was relevant to how it helped the game narratively.
 
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mcjmetroid

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That kiss trailer got a lot of backlash and even the backlash against Abby is absurd. There are tons of ugly men in games but a woman doesn't look like a supermodel and everybody throws a fit to the point that the actress gets death threats. In no way am I saying that everybody who dislikes this game is in this group. There are many intelligent reasons to like and dislike it but it has no doubt attracted some very ugly elements.
I have to agree in a way with you.

BUT

See there is a line between agenda and well.. the opposite to agenda. Non agenda I guess.

There are things out there like Doctor Who the new series which is very heavily agenda ridden with its storylines and things like terminator dark fate which had Uber powerful female characters with no weaknesses.
Sarah Connor from Terminator 2 was strong and believable and also had plenty of weaknesses. She was paranoid, obsessed and cried like crazy when the terminator first showed up.

but also I feel like the internet jumps on things as well far too soon.

I hated the new Star Wars movies but SJW agendas? I don't know about that. They sucked for a variety of other reasons.

Sometimes bad writing is bad writing without needing an agenda.

I take issue with the fact that when they do put a black guy in a movie or a female lead they always tend to be safe shit movies.

Wonder Woman I thought was trash, I really don't get how it got all the praise in the world. The movie was far too safe.
Take this scene from the animated movie.
Much funnier much more humourous and light hearted.

In comedies especially you just can't have good risky jokes when women are involved. It puts me off not because I'm a sexist but because I know what I'm going to get before I see it.
 
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Jon Neu

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I'll never know for sure if there was actually an agenda being pushed, because I didn't work on the game.
There’s always the deflection some people use with the old dishonest“how do you know there is an agenda? Prove it! And then they proceed to dismiss any proof.

For the people who like to do damage control for SJW, they admit that woke political agendas can exist; but only in theory. In practice it’s never real, no matter what.

In this case, Neil has publicly outlined how he introduces his political agenda into his games and he is not shy of letting the world know how wonderful they are for striving for diversity™.

The political agenda is pretty much a fact that no one with a slice of a brain can’t deny. And yet, there are still people denying that the game has a woke agenda, despite the creator of the game saying as much.
 
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Ellery

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I think there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest Druckman etc. was baiting the community in this.
As Druckman himself has said "There are always going to be haters" -- so why not steer that hate?

As far as I can see the hate for the game online is vastly disproportional to the mainstream media complaining that the game is being trolled by right wing groups etc.
The fuss being made by the mainstream does not line up with what I've read, which is mostly about the game just being overlong etc. The mainstream seems to want to make it out that the game is bad because of it's political overtones, which I don't think is the case.
I have seen almost no complaints about this game down to it's social agenda, mainly because it barely seems to have one -- but several complaints about how they changed the story to a limp soap opera, which I think is accurate.

The game is overlong with too many cutscenes and drab incidental characters -- it's a very common complaint, and one that you can level at almost every videogame.
But Naughty Dog shouldn't get off the hook by making those characters progressive or trying to divert our attention towards 'bigotry' etc. -- This is bog standard videogame writing.

I don't see it the way you do and I certainly don't think that any of what you wrote (which I think is how you perceive what is happening around the game and mostly anecdotal) is an excuse for harassing someone with death threats even if all of it was the 100% universal truth you believe it to be.

No game is perfect and like you said a lot of the complaints you can level at almost every videogame. I have no idea why people are so damn obsessed with hating The Last of Us Part II and trying to find something by overreading into the things they want to overread, but ignoring everything else.

It is sad that some people are too tangled up with the surroundings of everything that happens around this game instead of just playing through it with an open mind and experiencing/feeling (in my opinion) of of the best games ever made.
 

Clear

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Why do they lose you? This is an interesting read that further evidences ND's intent and throws more evidence on the pile. Some quotes:

There's an open-door policy at Naughty Dog, Druckmann said, in which anyone on the team can pitch ideas for a game the company is developing. In addition, he said, prominent members of Naughty Dog are part of the LGBTQ community, and a dedicated segment of the company is devoted to finding ways to prioritize diversity in its games. It was a confluence of these things that led to the conception of Lev and his portrayal in the final game, Druckmann said.

"There was a pitch to make a trans character, and we felt like we can make it work with Lev," he said, adding that making the character trans would give the siblings a reason to be running away from their religious tribe. "It felt like a way to make him complex in a new way than anything we've seen in a video game."


------------------------------

Right there in bold underlined, explicitly spelled out by the creators themselves, is the problem. There was a pitch not to make a character, but a "trans" character right from the start. Not to establish values, motivations, or the desires of that character......but only to focus on the most superficial of their traits that categorize it to justify its inclusion to achieve a political end, to, as ND says, "prioritize diversity in its games", and then conform the rest of the game around that in accomodation. Is that how straight cis characters are written? I very much doubt it, heck I doubt gender identity and orientation are even near the top of considerations while writing a character. Why is it alright to place traits in front of characterization instead of building characterization which would then utilize traits, as needed, to further develop it as the plot demanded? The former is what makes it an agenda and makes it feel unnatural and forced instead of vice versa.

What loses me is how people cannot see this distinction in their posts dismissing the claims of an agenda, especially when the creator comes out and explicitly states as much in the methodology of character inception. Are these people willingly intellectually dishonest? Ideologically blinded? I'm baffled how anyone could argue there's not an agenda going on given the abundance of evidence, statements and actions from Naughty Dog themselves, at this point the conversation should've far moved on to whether it is harmful or not.

Given this backwards approach to characterization and narrative in the affordance of ideological interest, hell, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the entire concept, design, and inclusion of the Seraphites was done solely for the purpose of laying the foundation of religious intolerance towards nontraditional gender roles to be able to afford a situation conducive to Lev's plight. A plight, btw, that was massively irrelevant to the overall plot, it bloated the game, and stuck out like a sore thumb considering such a first world problem would FAR reside on the back burner of issues in such a merciless world. That portion of the game largely came off to me as a catalyst for ideological promotion as much as it was relevant to how it helped the game narratively.
Stop whining.

Lev's not a playable character. Their gender status is integrated naturally in the story as part of that character's motivation to leave the Seraphite cult, who's function in the status is not to critique organized religion but to offer a foil for the WLF.

If they wanted to critique organized religion as part of their agenda its not like they'd be short of real world inspiration, from Catholic priests fucking boys, to Iranian gays transitioning so so to avoid execution under sharia law, its stupid easy to soapbox. And that's disregarding major historical events where religion and politics combined with genocidal results....
 
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Shinobitron

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Stop whining.

Lev's not a playable character. Their gender status is integrated naturally in the story as part of that character's motivation to leave the Seraphite cult, who's function in the status is not to critique organized religion but to offer a foil for the WLF.

If they wanted to critique organized religion as part of their agenda its not like they'd be short of real world inspiration, from Catholic priests fucking boys, to Iranian gays transitioning so so to avoid execution under sharia law, its stupid easy to soapbox. And that's disregarding major historical events where religion and politics combined with genocidal results....
Levs mindset and motivations make no sense in a zombie apocalypse, no matter what word salad you whip up.
 

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Deer/Dur
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Levs mindset and motivations make no sense in a zombie apocalypse, no matter what word salad you whip up.
Thats me told... you being an expert on post apocalyptic psychology and all!

For real though, its harmless. If this bothers you that much it says more about you than the game or ND.
 
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Shinobitron

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Thats me told... you being an expert on post apocalyptic psychology and all!

For real though, its harmless. If this bothers you that much it says more about you than the game or ND.
No it doesn't say anything about me, why do you get personal like this?
Thanks for insulting me for no justifiable reason lol
If you can't take someone else's opinion without insulting them maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror and question what is wrong with you.
 

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Deer/Dur
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No it doesn't say anything about me, why do you get personal like this?
Thanks for insulting me for no justifiable reason lol
If you can't take someone else's opinion without insulting them maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror and question what is wrong with you.
I didn't mean to insult you, but if I did... so be it, you had it coming for the word salad dig anyway.

What did I say anyway that was so insulting to you?

I'm sorry but my opinion is that if this sort of thing bothers you that much then you are way too invested in the culture war.

Its not healthy to interrogate every piece of entertainment content for political bias. Hell it doesn't seem like 5 mins ago we were roasting the Resetera mob for doing that exact thing.
 
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Jon Neu

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That's what Clear do. Don't let it get to you.
That's what most SJW apologists do, sadly. If you criticize SJW agenda, it must be because you hate women and are afraid of gay people, etc... It's an ad hominem meant to disqualify your opinion by invalidating you as a person.

Also they inevitably ask you: why do you care so much? All while they care at least as much to even retort to this ad hominem extremes just because someone criticizes a political agenda.
 
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V4skunk

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Yes I am more in turn with the left but around 2013 or 2014 the woke brigade started losing me and turning me off. Ironically they started emulating the right with the need to control everything and get offended at the slightest thing.
The right is the complete opposite of total control you low iq idiot.
 
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Kadayi

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Lev's not a playable character. Their gender status is integrated naturally in the story as part of that character's motivation to leave the Seraphite cult, who's function in the status is not to critique organized religion but to offer a foil for the WLF.

If they wanted to critique organized religion as part of their agenda its not like they'd be short of real world inspiration, from Catholic priests fucking boys, to Iranian gays transitioning so so to avoid execution under sharia law, its stupid easy to soapbox. And that's disregarding major historical events where religion and politics combined with genocidal results....
Seriously? Let me quote myself from earlier in the thread

25 Years into a post-apocalyptic future when the remnants of humanity are on the very precipice of extinction and everyday is a fight for survival what's really important is undoubtedly what people identify as over anything else for sure. Do you think Cormac McCarthy's The Road needs a rewrite so we can have the Boy coming out as Gender Neutral just before his Dad dies? Get a grip. If there's a story to be told of a trans child escaping persecution from a religious cult, there's a place for that no doubt (probably in a future Life is Strange Game), but inserted into a AAA tale of humanities survival not only feels absurdly indulgent, but also tone deaf to the grim world building already established. I dare say it will have succeeded in garnering Druckmann a life time of 'stunning and brave' awards from the Twitterari, but it for anyone else grounded in actual reality it was a 'Really? We're doing this, here in the middle of a goddamn war zone?' it was just terribly eye-rolling (along with the bigot sandwiches) .
Just as the past isn't culturally now but with worst hygiene, your post-apoc future isn't culturally now but with clickers and shotguns. The problem with TLOU2 is that the writing doesn't actively embrace a world view beyond the now for its characters, versus treat the actual setting as wallpaper for the most part (it's there, it's just in the background). It's a failure of imagination in that regard and within its setting the nods to modern social commentary just feel tonally incongruous when push comes to shove.

There are glimmers of interesting ideas like the Seraphites, the problem is I could buy a cult of that order 100 years and a few generations deep into the setting, but in real terms it's been 25 years. A lot of the 'elders' would have been happily living their lives pre-apocalypse (2013) and had jobs and 20th Century lives so I wasn't sold on the whole Luddite back to basics nature of them. The more militaristic nature of the WLF on the other hand is abjectly undermined by the constant casual nature of all involved. Beyond Isaac being in charge there's no sense of structure or of an actual hierarchy to things.

Conversely, Ellie, Dina, and Abby and her pals are all characters whose entire lives has been spent living after everything went to shit, especially civilisation. Yet they feel like they could easily fit in at Blackwell Academy, Arcadia Bay in many ways (I don't say that with scorn BTW, I loved LIS) . There's a certain triteness to the whole thing, not the least of which is the folksy styling of Jackson as some western town throwback with its barn dance, or the utterly saccharine Dina and Ellie Little house in the Hills sequence that frankly felt like it was going to turn out to be a fever dream (pity it didn't).

Fundamentally there is an abject lack of rigour to the world building both in terms of the setting, the characters and their mindset, that is hard to look past. From the lassie-fare attitude of Manny to Mel's Pregnancy (absolutely no way she'd even be allowed out on Patrol), to the idea that not only would the WLF be A-OK with Owen not only living off Base, but also apparently tapping them up to power an entire (seemingly ) still functional (after 20+ years no less) abandoned aquarium, which is simply in there because Druckmann wanted to make a parallel between Ellie and Joel visiting the museum in their flashback.
 
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sol_bad

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You know damn right why is hard to read, but you like just to play dumb to reinforce your take of Abby as a great character.

If it was me, I would make putting Solid Snake and Abby in the same sentence as a federal crime.
You argue that you can accept other opinions and perspectives but here you are demolishing the idea that someone could love Abby as much as a character as Dante or Snake.
hmmm

I didn’t said you did.

But the people who think like you and exhibit the same discourse as you, tend to do it.

In this thread alone there are a few.
You are labeling me even after I said I'm not calling you or anyone a bigot?

Seems to me you are the one indulging in deflecting by using alternative narratives.
I'm not deflecting, you are the one saying that Naughty Dog should avoid "politics". I provided scenarios where they could be avoided. My original intent was to suggest that even if they avoided politics there would still be people who would be annoyed and upset at the choices made for the story. You now are twisting what I was originally trying to put across to you, rather than discussing my points you are ignoring them and creating your own narrative of what I'm saying.

There’s still a difference you aren’t capable to grasp yet. People who “bitch” about the agenda aren’t bitching about trans or lesbians, they are criticizing the political agenda behind all those decisions. It doesn’t matter if you change the sex or the sexual preferences of the characters

You can make any character without it’s gender being a political weapon. You are clearly on the side with the people obsessed about the gender and who their videogame characters want to fuck, I am with the people who think that’s a silly politization of videogames.

They are not the same, at all.
I don't care who characters want to fuck, like I said, Dante and Snake are 2 of my favourite video game characters. I don't care who Ellie wants to fuck either.
I mean, do you like Final Fantasy 7? Did you get all annoyed when they were pushing a love triangle between Cloud, Tifa and Aeries. Did you scream at the top of your lungs "WHY THE FUCK IS THIS RELATIONSHIP SHIT IN MY GAME????!!!!". Did you complain and ask why they are pushing for Cloud to be a straight man that is attracted to women?
Did you you enjoy God of War 1-3? Were you annoyed that they pushed the fact that Kratos was a straight man that was married to a woman?

What does it matter if the development company decides to put a trans character in a game? I mean, Japan has done it for years for joke characters. But put a serious trans character in a game and it's the end of the world. As long as it works for the story it's fine and it works perfectly fine with Lev.

Well, for starters if ND didn’t spend so much time trying to make a political message out of it’s characters and games, they could actually take more time and more freedom (SJW rules are very constricted) to actually make better scripts.

Before the game was out we knew there was going to be some cringe scenes like the bigot sandwich one. And we knew it because it’s the logical result of trying to push a silly political propaganda through videogames.
Here you are with the bigot sandwich example again. The only example that you have. What other examples of bad writing do you have for TLOU2 that we can dissect?
 

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Seriously? Let me quote myself from earlier in the thread



Just as the past isn't culturally now but with worst hygiene, your post-apoc future isn't culturally now but with clickers and shotguns. The problem with TLOU2 is that the writing doesn't actively embrace a world view beyond the now for its characters, versus treat the actual setting as wallpaper for the most part (it's there, it's just in the background). It's a failure of imagination in that regard and within its setting the nods to modern social commentary just feel tonally incongruous when push comes to shove.

There are glimmers of interesting ideas like the Seraphites, the problem is I could buy a cult of that order 100 years and a few generations deep into the setting, but in real terms it's been 25 years. A lot of the 'elders' would have been happily living their lives pre-apocalypse (2013) and had jobs and 20th Century lives so I wasn't sold on the whole Luddite back to basics nature of them. The more militaristic nature of the WLF on the other hand is abjectly undermined by the constant casual nature of all involved. Beyond Isaac being in charge there's no sense of structure or of an actual hierarchy to things.

Conversely, Ellie, Dina, and Abby and her pals are all characters whose entire lives has been spent living after everything went to shit, especially civilisation. Yet they feel like they could easily fit in at Blackwell Academy, Arcadia Bay in many ways (I don't say that with scorn BTW, I loved LIS) . There's a certain triteness to the whole thing, not the least of which is the folksy styling of Jackson as some western town throwback with its barn dance, or the utterly saccharine Dina and Ellie Little house in the Hills sequence that frankly felt like it was going to turn out to be a fever dream (pity it didn't).

And...

Would you like to address my point that Lev and his trans status is a big nothingburger.

Here's what I think: Without that backstory Lev would be really obviously a basic plot device, a simple McGuffin for the protagonist to chase after. The trans aspect Is just something to give an illusion of inner-life and motivation.

Yes its basically an embellishment, but its what storytellers do; they fluff out with self-indulgent details. As I've said before its like Tarantino's foot fetish: always there but more an affectation than a statement of sexual intent.

Point being, at no point did I find TLOU2 to be in-my-face preachy at all. There's a lot of progressivism in its creative choices but I certainly didn't come away feeling like I'd just had my privelige checked!

Its really not bad at all. The overreaction to it and the whole ND "agenda" thing is just daffy.
 

Kadayi

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And...

Would you like to address my point that Lev and his trans status is a big nothingburger.

Here's what I think: Without that backstory Lev would be really obviously a basic plot device, a simple McGuffin for the protagonist to chase after. The trans aspect Is just something to give an illusion of inner-life and motivation.

Yes its basically an embellishment, but its what storytellers do; they fluff out with self-indulgent details. As I've said before its like Tarantino's foot fetish: always there but more an affectation than a statement of sexual intent.

Point being, at no point did I find TLOU2 to be in-my-face preachy at all. There's a lot of progressivism in its creative choices but I certainly didn't come away feeling like I'd just had my privelige checked!

Its really not bad at all. The overreaction to it and the whole ND "agenda" thing is just daffy.
It you'd actually bothered to read what I said, versus sniffing your own farts you'd have picked up on the word 'incongruous' and the explanation given as to why. It's not about being preachy, it's that it feels extremely out of place within the context of the setting and unnecessarily convoluted when all is said and done, to the extent that it erodes immersion.

You say it's nothing burger, but there's a clear failure there to understand that with writing the world building is happening after the characters, not before. The Seraphites are little more than a hollow plot delivery device, which just don't hold up to a great deal of scrutiny when you consider the brief time frame of societal collapse.
 
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Jon Neu

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You argue that you can accept other opinions and perspectives but here you are demolishing the idea that someone could love Abby as much as a character as Dante or Snake.
hmmm
You seem to wrongly intèrpret that accepting other opinions and perspectives means you have to say those opinions and perspectives are good and can't be criticized for some reason. That's not what accepting other perspectives means.

You are totally in your right to believe that Abby is as good of a character as Solid Snake. And I'm totally in my right to tell you that such opinion is so dumb it's like saying the 2018 Ghostbusters is as good of a movie as Children Of Men. I hate when people devolve into silly subjectivism.

You are labeling me even after I said I'm not calling you or anyone a bigot?
I'm literally saying that you aren't doing it.

I'm not deflecting, you are the one saying that Naughty Dog should avoid "politics".
Oh really? When I have said such thing?

Quite the contrary, in all of these TLOU2 threads, I repeated ad nauseam that Cuckmann is totally in his right to fill his games with whatever political agenda he wants.

But again, the fact that he has "opinions and perspectives" doesn't make him inmune to criticism.

My original intent was to suggest that even if they avoided politics there would still be people who would be annoyed and upset at the choices made for the story.
What you did was trying to equate SJW with people who critizice SJW polítics.

I mean, do you like Final Fantasy 7? Did you get all annoyed when they were pushing a love triangle between Cloud, Tifa and Aeries. Did you scream at the top of your lungs "WHY THE FUCK IS THIS RELATIONSHIP SHIT IN MY GAME????!!!!". Did you complain and ask why they are pushing for Cloud to be a straight man that is attracted to women?
Did you you enjoy God of War 1-3? Were you annoyed that they pushed the fact that Kratos was a straight man that was married to a woman?
I'm sometimes annoyed when a Love situation is added in any story just for the sake of it. Sometimes it's just a cop-out for not having to actually write something instead. But at least I know it's not part of a tòxic political propaganda.

What does it matter if the development company decides to put a trans character in a game? I mean, Japan has done it for years for joke characters. But put a serious trans character in a game and it's the end of the world. As long as it works for the story it's fine and it works perfectly fine with Lev.
Exactly, you have hit the nail here. Why does Japan gets away with so many trans, with so many gayness and so much weird gender stuff?



Because they actually do it for organical reasons, the only agenda they have is to make fun characters and stories. Their choices aren't dictated by following a woke agenda. And that's the point, people don't criticize lesbian characters or trans characters, people criticize using those characters as political weapons at the service of a toxic ideology.

Here you are with the bigot sandwich example again. The only example that you have. What other examples of bad writing do you have for TLOU2 that we can dissect?
More examples? Sure.

-Characters being dumb when the plot needs them to. Like when Abby literally gives mercy to Ellie not only once, but twice. Even Dina asks Ellie why they spared her life, and Ellie responded: maybe they're dumb. Bravo.

-Pregnant woman who is a super important doctor going into the open when Abby literally tells her that she could stay if she asked. Well, obviously pregnant women are brave and stunning, so let's put this pregnant woman in a situation of danger to show how badass she is. Write something that makes sense as to why is she in that situation of danger you say? That's too much work.

-Terminator Abby. The most emotionless bitch ever, all her friends and her crush die because of her and her only reaction is to spare Ellie's life. 10/10 script.

-The embarrassing attempts at making us sympathize with She Hulk. Self explanatory, really. Look, a doggo! Quickly, we have to kill it. Do you start to feel bad for Abby yet? No, well... Look! A zebra!

-The Ending. Well, turns out that revenge bad, dude. We have decimated half the population of the USA, but when the person who genuinely deserves to die is at our mercy, fucking Joel playing guitar appears and suddenly we came to the realization that revenge bad. Are your expectations subverted enough?

-Dina & Ellie's relationship. Zero chemistry and so boring is not even funny. And of course the asian guy had to die so they could make a family. You know Ellie? You could have killed the psychopath who killed Jesse and bring some closure for the people who loved him, but neither you or Dina cared about him at all. Cycle of revenge has to be stopped at this particular moment for subverting reasons!

And there's much more, but I don't remember them all right now and I don't think we have to go through all of it right now.
 
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anothertech

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Mob mentality. It goes all directions. If you are on one side, you are 100% not on the other. (in their minds)

One day the madness will end.
 

sol_bad

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More examples? Sure.

-Characters being dumb when the plot needs them to. Like when Abby literally gives mercy to Ellie not only once, but twice. Even Dina asks Ellie why they spared her life, and Ellie responded: maybe they're dumb. Bravo.

-Pregnant woman who is a super important doctor going into the open when Abby literally tells her that she could stay if she asked. Well, obviously pregnant women are brave and stunning, so let's put this pregnant woman in a situation of danger to show how badass she is. Write something that makes sense as to why is she in that situation of danger you say? That's too much work.

-Terminator Abby. The most emotionless bitch ever, all her friends and her crush die because of her and her only reaction is to spare Ellie's life. 10/10 script.

-The embarrassing attempts at making us sympathize with She Hulk. Self explanatory, really. Look, a doggo! Quickly, we have to kill it. Do you start to feel bad for Abby yet? No, well... Look! A zebra!

-The Ending. Well, turns out that revenge bad, dude. We have decimated half the population of the USA, but when the person who genuinely deserves to die is at our mercy, fucking Joel playing guitar appears and suddenly we came to the realization that revenge bad. Are your expectations subverted enough?

-Dina & Ellie's relationship. Zero chemistry and so boring is not even funny. And of course the asian guy had to die so they could make a family. You know Ellie? You could have killed the psychopath who killed Jesse and bring some closure for the people who loved him, but neither you or Dina cared about him at all. Cycle of revenge has to be stopped at this particular moment for subverting reasons!

And there's much more, but I don't remember them all right now and I don't think we have to go through all of it right now.
Except for Mel being pregnant what do any of these points have to do with a political agenda?
 
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It you'd actually bothered to read what I said, versus sniffing your own farts you'd have picked up on the word 'incongruous' and the explanation given as to why. It's not about being preachy, it's that it feels extremely out of place within the context of the setting and unnecessarily convoluted when all is said and done, to the extent that it erodes immersion.

You say it's nothing burger, but there's a clear failure there to understand that with writing the world building is happening after the characters, not before. The Seraphites are little more than a hollow plot delivery device, which just don't hold up to a great deal of scrutiny when you consider the brief time frame of societal collapse.
So you are this aggravated by an incongruity... that's completely different and not at all an overreaction!

I disagree, didn't pull me out of the story because the Seraphites are not a focal element. They are essentially a sub-plot.
 

Kadayi

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So you are this aggravated by an incongruity... that's completely different and not at all an overreaction!

I disagree, didn't pull me out of the story because the Seraphites are not a focal element. They are essentially a sub-plot.
10K+ plus posts here and not one worth a damn it seems. Hilarious. I've witnessed some sad cunt moves in all my years here, but when the best defence someone can trot out in a discussion thread is some Hand wave variation on 'Well it didn't bother me' as if their low critical standards are some magical shield that invalidates all criticisms of others, kind of takes the soggy biscuit of intellectual debasement when all is said and done . Bravo I guess. You win at failing.

Considering the amount of time and effort that went into creating the environmental design, the animations, etc, etc, all of which are done in the service of generating player immersion, lacklustre world building is a surefire way to undermine it at the end of the day, and in that regard TLOU 2 is guilty on several counts, your ignorance not withstanding.
 
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