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Neil Druckmann has being getting transphobic, homophobic, anti-Semitic messages

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That's cause there is none.
Even in TLOU2 the so caleed "agenda" stuff has barely any incidence on the overall plot, it's just there.

But it's easier to be biased, not play the game, not even watch the game properly and then say Druckmann invited death threats cause he's a master manipulator.
The only sensible response is no matter what your beliefs or agenda is you never "invite" death threats. I think the basic right for life comes ahead of free speech.
Yep. The most obvious agendas at work are those held by the people who've been gunning for this game since before it came out. Its blatant, especially those who have sought to hold Druckmann personally responsible for everything from crunch through to personally organizing DMCA strikes against Youtubers.

Its stupid, but what can you do? You can't convince these conspiracy nutjobs that its all in their fevered brains and how they are really no different from the leftist idiot faction that sees "-isms" and "microagressons" in anything.

Even when they prove the fact by getting comically indignant when their similarity to their ideological opposites get pointed our, neither can abide "both sidesism"! Even though its just a matter of consistency.
 

Dick Jones

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The worst part of this is that people can have vaild complaints on the game. I've heard some, I might not have agreed in all cases but I understood their rationale, the game is not perfect, it's punishing and emotionally draining. That was the reaction it was looking for. It's when the reason given for the negative reaction is wrapped in politics or beliefs of a director but never expanded on as to why it is an issue is bullshit.

I automatically stop reading posts that have Cuckmann in them. (Oh God you're hilarious with that creative joke no one else has made)
He's in the game, how fucking vain is he?
That's a different person entirely.
Whatever.
He ruined the game with his politics!
Did you play it?
No.
Okay, great input on the new game
Or
Abby is too big, that's bullshit, steroids don't work that far in the future!
Did you know TLOU revolves around upgrading abilities by collecting and taking drugs, I've never once heard people complain about those drugs that shouldn't work. She sleeps beside a gym. Anyone want to see Christian Bale in the Machinist and The Dark Knight (he had 6 months between finishing the Machinist and starting filming as Batman) and tell me that getting buff in 4 years is unrealistic. In that case what about that El Gigante fucker at the Scars Island, should he not be as big? He has no gym and i doubt the religious cult takes drugs so where is that outrage?

Legitimate criticism I've heard is about how the opening act was too convenient and could have been tightened up to not be as fortuitous. I've heard better set ups to the opening act that looking back I would have preferred. Criticism is fine when you can explain what the problem is without slating his politics and leaving it as is.
 
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Ten_Fold

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Death threats is dumb, but should be expected since you messed the story up pretty bad. Also Twitter was a mistake.
 

Dick Jones

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how about dog lovers?
Fan of dogs or dog fuckers? It's 2020, unfortunately you have to be more specific. 😂😂😂😂

People complaining about killing dogs when you kill people are disturbed. They are not cute little doggies that want to jump and lick on your face. They are worse than bloaters and King Rat. They are vicious creatures and Hillcrest can go fuck itself. Apologies to anyone from Hillcrest.
 

Woggleman

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I happen to really like the game but I can respect those who have a different opinion but when people start talking about a woke or political agenda they lose me. It seems like some of them just don't gay characters or strong women or any of that to have a large presence in a game. I am not talking about all critics of the game but those who use it to push their culture war.
 

VincentMatts

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Ill never understand how this stuff happens. I mean, im very disappointed about how 343 have treated Halo since Bungie left. But thats about it, im disappointed.

How people can go to those extremes is baffling to me.
 

Hulk_Smash

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Did he really write trigger warning?
And does anyone read them and wipe their brow in relief “Wow, I almost read that! Thanks trigger warning.”

Or do they dive right in knowing it’s going to be juicy gossip.
 
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Ozrimandias

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How miserable your life can be in order to send threats to a developer, an actress and other artists because you don't like A FUCKING GAME?! I just can't understand it.
 

Jon Neu

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How miserable your life can be in order to send threats to a developer, an actress and other artists because you don't like A FUCKING GAME?! I just can't understand it.
Welcome to the internet.

You can find people doing “death threats” to anybody for any reason. They’re obviously not real and are just people trolling and insulting someone. That’s why this type of news are just a big nothingburger.
 
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Dick Jones

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Seems like an American thing all right. I just don't understand how is this the thing, sending death threads.
It's not just an American thing. I remember that actors on British soaps got death threats in the 1980s and 1990s. A common story in Ireland is that a sporting analyst got an abusive message in the post. It was addressed to 'Pat the Bollix, Co. Kerry' and it still reached him. Stupid and abusive messages is everywhere, it might be more obvious in the States but it's not isolated.
 

M1chl

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It's not just an American thing. I remember that actors on British soaps got death threats in the 1980s and 1990s. A common story in Ireland is that a sporting analyst got an abusive message in the post. It was addressed to 'Pat the Bollix, Co. Kerry' and it still reached him. Stupid and abusive messages is everywhere, it might be more obvious in the States but it's not isolated.
Sorry should have clarified, mainly Anglo Saxons does this shit over a game, if someone more east does this, it's many times meant really seriously. Not in a way, that's "another day, another death threat.
 
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Inxes

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That's not what happened at all. Educate yourself before you go off spouting nonsense, please.


Ah, the strawman argument. Classic.
First, the man asked a friend to marry him on Twitter which is a big mistake, the internet, or Twitter if your prefer, gave him shit for their decision, which isnt harmful by itself, but it is when the comment is not "Man, this is not how you should approach this" but rather "what the fuck go kill yourself". As I said, maybe for people like you and me, these are just assholes and we can deal with it no problem, but for a person who has been for the most part of his life dealing with severe mental problems, its not the case at all.

Obviously the guy didnt kill himself only because Twitter, but rather it was another reason to do so, and probably the last nail in the coffin.

Secondly, I don't know why would you say I commited a falacy. I am in no way saying he didnt do this to get some pats in the back or just because he wanted to create controversy. What I said is that making a controversial game, or even thinking that you created an absolute liberal masterpiece and that your views should be the ones adopted by this world is not the same as wishing death to those who dont share your opinions. Not even close.

And on other topic, even If you disagree with him, any sensible person would agree that this game has been wrongly attacked. Not for the fact that the story is bad (that is a valid reasoning imo), but due to things like needing 25 hours to complete and having a shit ton of 0s two or three hours after the game released. You cant say the story is bad based on leaks, you dont know jack shit about what has happened and what led the plot there. Denying that is being stupid.
 

Jon Neu

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Legitimate criticism I've heard is about how the opening act was too convenient and could have been tightened up to not be as fortuitous. I've heard better set ups to the opening act that looking back I would have preferred. Criticism is fine when you can explain what the problem is without slating his politics and leaving it as is.
Criticising the game agenda is legitimate criticism. Seeing the obvious political agenda in character designs and dialogues takes away from the immersion and the scenes and dialogues are normally not of the highest quality (the cringe in the bigot Sandwich scene is over the top).

The fact that some people like to pretend that the agenda doesn't exist even when the creator himself says that it exists, and they act all holier than thou criticising "both sides" when they are obviously in one side and always criticizing the same side, makes it incredibly disingenuous when people try to claim that the political agenda isn't a valid criticism.
 

Dick Jones

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Criticising the game agenda is legitimate criticism. Seeing the obvious political agenda in character designs and dialogues takes away from the immersion and the scenes and dialogues are normally not of the highest quality (the cringe in the bigot Sandwich scene is over the top).

The fact that some people like to pretend that the agenda doesn't exist even when the creator himself says that it exists, and they act all holier than thou criticising "both sides" when they are obviously in one side and always criticizing the same side, makes it incredibly disingenuous when people try to claim that the political agenda isn't a valid criticism.
Your only example is the bigot sandwich scene at the start of the game. Game writing generally sucks but it has come on leaps and bounds in the past decade, it's not at movies level as there is more cash in cinema for screenwriters. Okay, we don't know until a later flashback what argument both parties had. If it's the actual scene in total was cringe, apologies for some are tough to say are usually through a third party trying to keep the peace. I've made apologies in similar manners and other times it was easier to apologise. It depends on the severity of the comment. Is it the poor writing part or the fact that people who are homophobic were called bigots in the game? If It was the writing what would you have changed (bearing in mind the last night incident was a catalyst for another scene so we still need conflict between Ellie and someone so Joel can interject himself onto the conflict)?

Criticising the game's agenda is fine but you need more examples than one line in a 30+ hour game to explain what the problem is. Saying Druckmann is pushing a political agenda is so vague when you don't give specific examples with it, and why they don't work with the story. It's not on the posters you're debating with to figure out what specifically you don't like about the game.

So if you want to give more examples of the political agenda that you don't like and explain how it doesn't work, fire ahead. I like the game and yet I have heard at least three separate scenarios for the Jackson chapter to follow that are better than Druckmann's version. Druckmann is not infallible.
 
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Jon Neu

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Your only example is the bigot sandwich
That's precisely what an example is.

Is it the poor writing part or the fact that people who are homophobic were called bigots in the game?
We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie and/or Dina were going to suffer some kind of "oppression" for being lesbians and that they were going to respond in the habitual brave and stunning way. We knew the game was going to have that type of scenes because we know the agenda of the people doing the game.

Saying Druckmann is pushing a political agenda is so vague when you don't give specific examples with it, and why they don't work with the story. It's not on the posters you're debating with to figure out what specifically you don't like about the game.
Saying that Neil is pushing a political agenda is literally saying what he, the creator of the game, says. The people claiming that there is no political agenda are literally contradicting the creator of the game himself. He has publicly outlined how he introduces a political agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian through character design alone (and it shows). You just have to take a look at the female characters in his games, they are basically third wave feminist fanservice. They are all cut by the same pattern.

He doesn't even need to have a bigot Sandwich scene to push his political agenda, or to have a poor trans CHILD face oppression, he doesn't need to make a she-hulk woman who is basically a third wave feminism power fantasy. And yet, he did all of that too to the surprise of nobody.
 
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Steve.1981

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If It was the writing what would you have changed (bearing in mind the last night incident was a catalyst for another scene so we still need conflict between Ellie and someone so Joel can interject himself onto the conflict)?
The scene at the party could play out pretty much as is, but with the sole difference being that Seth says, "Oh just what this town needs! Another smart-ass little know-it-all bitch"

Joel would still step in if someone spoke to Ellie that way.

In my opinion, the bigot sandwich scene is ridiculous, serves no purpose other than woke virtue-signalling & can be cut out of the game completely without any problems for the narrative. It would be enough to just have Jesse & Maria both mention the scene at the party to Ellie, & have her reluctant to talk about it, before she meets Dina & heads out.
 
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Meh the death threats and hate are just not effective anymore. The shock and awe has faded and it’s become too common.

Now hearing someone say “I hope you step on a fucking LEGO” or I hope you stub your toe on your coffee table”. Hurt deeper now for some reason
 
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Dick Jones

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That's precisely what an example is.
In that post it is your only example, the rest was incoherent rambling about political agenda but unable to pick out anything but a throwaway line in 30+ hour game.

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie and/or Dina were going to suffer some kind of "oppression" for being lesbians and that they were going to respond in the habitual brave and stunning way. We knew the game was going to have that type of scenes because we know the agenda of the people doing the game.
So a short conversation/apology at the start of a game and the later flashback explaining why there was an apology that took 5 minutes overall. The apology at the start of the game was Ellie biting her lip being forced to accept the apology. The offending bigot sandwich comment wasn't even made to the bigot. That's not stunning or brave to be bullied into accepting an apology. Ellie was bullied into accepting an apology. In the first game Bill was gay and lived in a church, did that ruin the game for you then?


Saying that Neil is pushing a political agenda is literally saying what he, the creator of the game, says. The people claiming that there is no political agenda are literally contradicting the creator of the game himself. He has publicly outlined how he introduces a political agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian through character design alone (and it shows). You just have to take a look at the female characters in his games, they are basically third wave feminist fanservice. They are all cut by the same pattern.
He said it was political, no shit. All narrative driven games have political agendas, developers draw from their experiences. Did you hate BioShock for being political as well? Or the Metal Gear Solid series? Please name me one narrative game without a political agenda. If including a trans character in a game is political (you haven't made any effort to explain the political parts so I'm guessing), then likewise not including a trans character in a game is political.

Do you have an overall problem playing games as a female character? Was Horizon: Zero Dawn a chore because you played as Aloy or did you avoid it? What is so bad about the design of the female characters in Druckmann's games and why is it poor design? In real life women come in all shapes and sizes, they are not all models. Is Anita in the credits for TLOU2? I think Anita is a scam artist myself but she did not make any part of this game.

He doesn't even need to have a bigot Sandwich scene to push his political agenda, or to have a poor trans CHILD face oppression, he doesn't need to make a she-hulk woman who is basically a third wave feminism power fantasy. And yet, he did all of that too to the surprise of nobody.
Okay, the hurt you feel over the bigot sandwich line is worrying. Again a few seconds out of 30+ hours. Do you identify with the man behind the bar? Are you homophobic?

Regarding trans people, they do exist. I glanced at Wikipedia and the lowest who identify as trans is 0.6% so about 1 in 200 people are trans. So this game has well over 200 npcs in it so happens to have one who is trans. So % wise you expect to have at least one trans person in the game if we are to use your request for realism in the game (basing this off your later she-hulk comment). If we took the top 200 best selling games of all time, I doubt we have one trans playable character in that list do we? Yet 1 NPC (not even a playable character) in one game of which you likely played hundreds of games is too much representation for you.

She-hulk? You mean Abby right. Power fantasy, okay. How many games have power fantasy male characters been the playable character. Have you complained about that before? Abby's frame was taken from an actual woman. There is proof biological women like that exist, you may not like the figure but some women do look like that. If you have a problem with her frame and it's unrealistic, then you must also be angry with the big fucker in Scar Island as he wouldn't be that size and frame either without steroids (That wouldn't work this far into the future) either. I'm sure you simply forgot to include that in your cons list of this game. You are allowed to not warm to Abby as a character but if her frame is your only issue, you are sad. I have problems with parts of her character but I don't give a shit what she looks like.

You were likely spoiled by the leaks and told there was a trans character and you hate Abby as a result and affected by the big spoiler near the start. This anger in you festered as you didn't have an overall view of the game. The leaks comments were more SJW than the released game.

As I said in earlier posts, give examples. You wrote vague shite, mention lesbian and trans oppression and expect me to finish your homework. Please make an effort to explain yourself using concrete examples and rationale. Your complete argument on trans characters in TLOU2 is "or to have a poor trans CHILD face oppression" with no explanation of why this is bad or why it shouldn't be in the game. Maybe if you explained it, other people could see you point of view. Otherwise people reading your posts can only see a homophobic, transphobic and misogynist bigot as you are just giving out but not explaining yourself at all. So you need to expand on your complaints of the game rather than make general comments.
 
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Dick Jones

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That's precisely what an example is.
In that post it is your only example, the rest was incoherent rambling about political agenda but unable to pick out anything but a throwaway line in 30+ hour game.

We knew before the game was out that there was going to be a scene in which Ellie and/or Dina were going to suffer some kind of "oppression" for being lesbians and that they were going to respond in the habitual brave and stunning way. We knew the game was going to have that type of scenes because we know the agenda of the people doing the game.
So a short conversation/apology at the start of a game and the later flashback explaining why there was an apology that took 5 minutes overall. The apology at the start of the game was Ellie biting her lip being forced to accept the apology. The offending bigot sandwich comment wasn't even made to the bigot. That's not stunning or brave to be bullied into accepting an apology. Ellie was bullied into accepting an apology. In the first game Bill was gay and lived in a church, did that ruin the game for you then?


Saying that Neil is pushing a political agenda is literally saying what he, the creator of the game, says. The people claiming that there is no political agenda are literally contradicting the creator of the game himself. He has publicly outlined how he introduces a political agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian through character design alone (and it shows). You just have to take a look at the female characters in his games, they are basically third wave feminist fanservice. They are all cut by the same pattern.
He said it was political, no shit. All narrative driven games have political agendas, developers draw from their experiences. Did you hate BioShock for being political as well? Or the Metal Gear Solid series? Please name me one narrative game without a political agenda. If including a trans character in a game is political (you haven't made any effort to explain the political parts so I'm guessing), then likewise not including a trans character in a game is political.

Do you have an overall problem playing games as a female character? Was Horizon: Zero Dawn a chore because you played as Aloy or did you avoid it? What is so bad about the design of the female characters in Druckmann's games and why is it poor design? In real life women come in all shapes and sizes, they are not all models. Is Anita in the credits for TLOU2? I think Anita is a scam artist myself but she did not make any part of this game.

He doesn't even need to have a bigot Sandwich scene to push his political agenda, or to have a poor trans CHILD face oppression, he doesn't need to make a she-hulk woman who is basically a third wave feminism power fantasy. And yet, he did all of that too to the surprise of nobody.
Okay, the hurt you feel over the bigot sandwich line is worrying. Again a few seconds out of 30+ hours. Do you identify with the man behind the bar? Are you homophobic?

Regarding trans people, they do exist. I glanced at Wikipedia and the lowest who identify as trans is 0.6% so about 1 in 200 people are trans. So this game has well over 200 npcs in it so happens to have one who is trans. So % wise you expect to have at least one trans person in the game if we are to use your request for realism in the game (basing this off your later she-hulk comment). If we took the top 200 best selling games of all time, I doubt we have one trans playable character in that list do we? Yet 1 NPC (not even a playable character) in one game of which you likely played hundreds of games is too much representation for you.

She-hulk? You mean Abby right. Power fantasy, okay. How many games have power fantasy male characters been the playable character. Have you complained about that before? Abby's frame was taken from an actual woman. There is proof biological women like that exist, you may not like the figure but some women do look like that. If you have a problem with her frame and it's unrealistic, then you must also be angry with the big fucker in Scar Island as he wouldn't be that size and frame either without steroids (That wouldn't work this far into the future) either. I'm sure you simply forgot to include that in your cons list of this game. You are allowed to not warm to Abby as a character but if her frame is your only issue, you are sad. I have problems with parts of her character but I don't give a shit what she looks like.

You were likely spoiled by the leaks and told there was a trans character and you hate Abby as a result and affected by the big spoiler near the start. This anger in you festered as you didn't have an overall view of the game. The leaks comments were more SJW than the released game.

As I said in earlier posts, give examples. You wrote vague shite, mention lesbian and trans oppression and expect me to finish your homework. Please make an effort to explain yourself using concrete examples and rationale. Your complete argument on trans characters in TLOU2 is "or to have a poor trans CHILD face oppression" with no explanation of why this is bad or why it shouldn't be in the game. Maybe if you explained it, other people could see you point of view. Otherwise people reading your posts can only see a homophobic, transphobic and misogynist bigot as you are just giving out but not explaining yourself at all. So you need to expand on your complaints of the game rather than make general comments.
 
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Kadayi

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He said it was political, no shit. All narrative driven games have political agendas, developers draw from their experiences.
So what was the political agenda of the first game?

Regarding trans people, they do exist. I glanced at Wikipedia and the lowest who identify as trans is 0.6% so about 1 in 200 people are trans. So this game has well over 200 npcs in it so happens to have one who is trans. So % wise you expect to have at least one trans person in the game if we are to use your request for realism in the game (basing this off your later she-hulk comment). If we took the top 200 best selling games of all time, I doubt we have one trans playable character in that list do we? Yet 1 NPC (not even a playable character) in one game of which you likely played hundreds of games is too much representation for you.
25 Years into a post-apocalyptic future when the remnants of humanity are on the very precipice of extinction and everyday is a fight for survival what's really important is undoubtedly what people identify as over anything else for sure. Do you think Cormac McCarthy's The Road needs a rewrite so we can have the Boy coming out as Gender Neutral just before his Dad dies? Get a grip. If there's a story to be told of a trans child escaping persecution from a religious cult, there's a place for that no doubt (probably in a future Life is Strange Game), but inserted into a AAA tale of humanities survival not only feels absurdly indulgent, but also tone deaf to the grim world building already established. I dare say it will have succeeded in garnering Druckmann a life time of 'stunning and brave' awards from the Twitterari, but it for anyone else grounded in actual reality it was a 'Really? We're doing this, here in the middle of a goddamn war zone?' it was just terribly eye-rolling (along with the bigot sandwiches) .
 
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Dick Jones

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The scene at the party could play out pretty much as is, but with the sole difference being that Seth says, "Oh just what this town needs! Another smart-ass little know-it-all bitch"

Joel would still step in if someone spoke to Ellie that way.

In my opinion, the bigot sandwich scene is ridiculous, serves no purpose other than woke virtue-signalling & can be cut out of the game completely without any problems for the narrative. It would be enough to just have Jesse & Maria both mention the scene at the party to Ellie, & have her reluctant to talk about it, before she meets Dina & heads out.
This is what i was asking for in this thread, explain why you think something is shit and how you'd fix it. I do agree with you that the bigot sandwich line is shit. Having lesbians where zero people in this game give a shit whether someone is gay or not is normalizing gay relationships more than making a tiny reference that gay people are still facing oppression 25 years into an apocalypse. Narratively something was needed for conflict as Joel came in as a white knight to effectively be told to fuck off. If it was Ellie and Dina accidentally bumping into Seth who spills alcohol on himself and starts shouting (cursing at them nothing bigoted) and throws the empty glass at their feet. I'd be fine with something like that. Joel steps in and you can keep the apology the following morning at the start (with no reference) and cut out bigoted sandwich.
 

Dick Jones

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So what was the political agenda of the first game?
Off the top of my head, playing as a character who has lost his daughter at the beginning of the game and years later bonds with a teenage girl about his daughter age on a journey across America. When he finds out that she has to die to get the cure, he chooses to rescue her as he didn't want to go through losing another 'daughter'. He was selfish in that he chose his happiness over the greater good, even going so far as to lie to Ellie about it.

I could expand but that's the rough answer. The needs of the many v the needs of the few. Man seeking redemption in humanity for losing it after losing his daughter.
 
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Steve.1981

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Having lesbians where zero people in this game give a shit whether someone is gay or not is normalizing gay relationships more than making a tiny reference that gay people are still facing oppression 25 years into an apocalypse.
I agree with everything you said, but this part in particular is spot on.
 
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Rikoi

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Off the top of my head, playing as a character who has lost his daughter at the beginning of the game and years later bonds with a teenage girl about his daughter age on a journey across America. When he finds out that she has to die to get the cure, he chooses to rescue her as he didn't want to go through losing another 'daughter'. He was selfish in that he chose his happiness over the greater good, even going so far as to lie to Ellie about it.

I could expand but that's the rough answer. The needs of the many v the needs of the few. Man seeking redemption in humanity for losing it after losing his daughter.
And how is that a political agenda?
There is no political agenda in the first game. You are trying too hard.
It was a simple story of a father wanting to keep his daughter safe, it has nothing to do with politics, every decent human being would save his children.
Now tell me that choosing to save your children over some unknown people is a political choice.
 
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Jon Neu

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In that post it is your only example
You seem to still don't understand what an example is and what is it's purpose.

The offending bigot sandwich comment wasn't even made to the bigot.
What a weird defending argumentation. B-b-but the bigot didn't even heard her calling him bigot!

That totally changes the purpose of the scene, obviously. It's not like the purpose of the scene is to comunicate with the audience, not with the white old bigot.

In the first game Bill was gay and lived in a church, did that ruin the game for you then?
Oh, you seem very intellectually honest with not totally at all loaded qüestions and desperate ad hominems.

What is your next question going to be. Something like "are you afraid of strong women?" or "why do you hate gays?"

Everytime the agenda is critiziced, every time there's some crazy reactionary who borderline calls the people who criticize it as sexist, racist, homophobics and what not.

It really makes for a great honest conversation.


He said it was political, no shit. All narrative driven games have political agendas,
Then why are you so triggered that we criticize this political agenda in particular? We have to agree with third wave feminists or then that means we hate women?

You, like the other wolves disguided as sheeps, have a very totalitarian reaction to anybody making fun or criticizing the political agenda of the game.

What is so bad about the design of the female characters in Druckmann's games and why is it poor design?
I've never said the character designs are bad per se, but seems clear it's too much asking you some level of reading comprehension when you are already jumping to the extremist 101 reaction.

Cuckmann is constricted to a very narrow version of how females have to be. The hypocisy of his political agenda is really comical, but he is totally entitled to design his characters in the way he wants.

In real life women come in all shapes and sizes, they are not all models.
That's precisely what the game lacks, women from all shapes and sizes. But you can only have certain type of women in the game, otherwise you are sexist.

Is Anita in the credits for TLOU2?
Neil has cited Anita as a big influence on his games. She doesn't need to be in the credits for her ideals to be in the game.

Do you identify with the man behind the bar? Are you homophobic?
I like to identify myself as a bigot sandwich. Pronouns: The greatest/Xe.


Regarding trans people, they do exist.
Well, that's like, your opinion, man.

But again, you are too focused in your totalitarian mode you don't even understand that the problem isn't trans people, or lesbians or whatever. The problem is the weaponization of those "minority groups™" to virtue signal. Nobody really cares to whom a fictional videogame character has sex with, but it's all a part of a very new and clear political propaganda.

Ironically, Lev was one of the most sympathetic characters in the game. And it's a little bit weird, because he hardly has a personality.

She-hulk? You mean Abby right. Power fantasy, okay. How many games have power fantasy male characters been the playable character. Have you complained about that before? Abby's frame was taken from an actual woman. There is proof biological women like that exist, you may not like the figure but some women do look like that. If you have a problem with her frame and it's unrealistic, then you must also be angry with the big fucker in Scar Island as he wouldn't be that size and frame either without steroids (That wouldn't work this far into the future) either. I'm sure you simply forgot to include that in your cons list of this game. You are allowed to not warm to Abby as a character but if her frame is your only issue, you are sad. I have problems with parts of her character but I don't give a shit what she looks like.
Again, someone points at the moon and you look at the finger.

You wanted more examples of the political agenda, but if we take into account how Abby plays as the typical power fantasy role in the third wave feminists (like Nadine too), you still get mad.

And yes, obviously the power fantasy is super male centric. But that's because every art is based on reality. And men are just genetically much more gifted for combat than women.


You were likely spoiled by the leaks and told there was a trans character and you hate Abby as a result and affected by the big spoiler near the start. This anger in you festered as you didn't have an overall view of the game. The leaks comments were more SJW than the released game.
I knew that Abby wasn't going to be the trans character, because that then would dismiss the most important trait of her design; which is to play to the women are as strong as men feminist fantasy.

If she or Nadine were actually biological dudes, then that would defeat the purpose of their designs and their incredible strength.

I didn't had any anger when the leaks happened, to the contrary, they were the best thing that happened in gaming this year. I had such a great time when it all happened.

As I said in earlier posts, give examples. You wrote vague shite, mention lesbian and trans oppression and expect me to finish your homework.
The funny thing is that you still don't understand that your damage control is irrelevant. Literally the creator of the game has stated his political agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian that he materializes by character design alone. It's a fact, no matter how much you try to not acknowledge it.

But don't worry, you are not the first to do this type of bullshit.
 

Kadayi

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Off the top of my head, playing as a character who has lost his daughter at the beginning of the game and years later bonds with a teenage girl about his daughter age on a journey across America. When he finds out that she has to die to get the cure, he chooses to rescue her as he didn't want to go through losing another 'daughter'. He was selfish in that he chose his happiness over the greater good, even going so far as to lie to Ellie about it.

I could expand but that's the rough answer. The needs of the many v the needs of the few. Man seeking redemption in humanity for losing it after losing his daughter.
LOL. Let's try again shall we.

So what was the political agenda of the first game?
 
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Dick Jones

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And how is that a political agenda?
There is no political agenda in the first game. You are trying too hard.
It was a simple story of a father wanting to keep his daughter safe, it has nothing to do with politics, every decent human being would save his children.
Now tell me that choosing to save your children over some unknown people is a political choice.
Ellie is not nor at any stage Joel's daughter. He chose to save someone he bonded with for selfish reasons, without giving her a choice, and lied to her. What political to you and I'll come back to you.
 

Kadayi

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Ellie is not nor at any stage Joel's daughter. He chose to save someone he bonded with for selfish reasons, without giving her a choice, and lied to her. What political to you and I'll come back to you.
Regardless

So what was the political agenda of the first game?

Cmon Dick. Nut up .
 
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Dick Jones

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You seem to still don't understand what an example is and what is it's purpose.



What a weird defending argumentation. B-b-but the bigot didn't even heard her calling him bigot!

That totally changes the purpose of the scene, obviously. It's not like the purpose of the scene is to comunicate with the audience, not with the white old bigot.



Oh, you seem very intellectually honest with not totally at all loaded qüestions and desperate ad hominems.

What is your next question going to be. Something like "are you afraid of strong women?" or "why do you hate gays?"

Everytime the agenda is critiziced, every time there's some crazy reactionary who borderline calls the people who criticize it as sexist, racist, homophobics and what not.

It really makes for a great honest conversation.




Then why are you so triggered that we criticize this political agenda in particular? We have to agree with third wave feminists or then that means we hate women?

You, like the other wolves disguided as sheeps, have a very totalitarian reaction to anybody making fun or criticizing the political agenda of the game.



I've never said the character designs are bad per se, but seems clear it's too much asking you some level of reading comprehension when you are already jumping to the extremist 101 reaction.

Cuckmann is constricted to a very narrow version of how females have to be. The hypocisy of his political agenda is really comical, but he is totally entitled to design his characters in the way he wants.



That's precisely what the game lacks, women from all shapes and sizes. But you can only have certain type of women in the game, otherwise you are sexist.



Neil has cited Anita as a big influence on his games. She doesn't need to be in the credits for her ideals to be in the game.



I like to identify myself as a bigot sandwich. Pronouns: The greatest/Xe.




Well, that's like, your opinion, man.

But again, you are too focused in your totalitarian mode you don't even understand that the problem isn't trans people, or lesbians or whatever. The problem is the weaponization of those "minority groups™" to virtue signal. Nobody really cares to whom a fictional videogame character has sex with, but it's all a part of a very new and clear political propaganda.

Ironically, Lev was one of the most sympathetic characters in the game. And it's a little bit weird, because he hardly has a personality.



Again, someone points at the moon and you look at the finger.

You wanted more examples of the political agenda, but if we take into account how Abby plays as the typical power fantasy role in the third wave feminists (like Nadine too), you still get mad.

And yes, obviously the power fantasy is super male centric. But that's because every art is based on reality. And men are just genetically much more gifted for combat than women.




I knew that Abby wasn't going to be the trans character, because that then would dismiss the most important trait of her design; which is to play to the women are as strong as men feminist fantasy.

If she or Nadine were actually biological dudes, then that would defeat the purpose of their designs and their incredible strength.

I didn't had any anger when the leaks happened, to the contrary, they were the best thing that happened in gaming this year. I had such a great time when it all happened.



The funny thing is that you still don't understand that your damage control is irrelevant. Literally the creator of the game has stated his political agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian that he materializes by character design alone. It's a fact, no matter how much you try to not acknowledge it.

But don't worry, you are not the first to do this type of bullshit.
Cuckmann, oh you're one of those people. Explains a lot of the shite I had to shovel through reading it. Grow up lad, and stop being afraid of women. When you talk to them like an adult they do talk back instead of ignoring you.
 
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Jon Neu

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Ellie is not nor at any stage Joel's daughter. He chose to save someone he bonded with for selfish reasons, without giving her a choice, and lied to her. What political to you and I'll come back to you.
When you have to retort to the silly "everything is political" just to try and defend the inserted political agenda of Cuckmann, something is definitely wrong.

Cuckmann, oh you're one of those people. Explains a lot of the shite I had to shovel through reading it. Grow up lad, and stop being afraid of women. When you talk to them like an adult they do talk back instead of ignoring you.
Wait, let me answer you at your same level:

Hold on just right there, Dick! If you continue to white knight and be a good ally, someday you will lose your virginity. At this rate, it's possible you manage to do it before you hit your 40's!
 
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Rikoi

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Ellie is not nor at any stage Joel's daughter. He chose to save someone he bonded with for selfish reasons, without giving her a choice, and lied to her. What political to you and I'll come back to you.
She represents his daughter. She lost his biological daughter so he sees in Ellie his lost daughter, it's not that hard to understand. They are both alone and they both survive together, of course they would bond to each other.
Again, there is no political agenda in a story like this.
 
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Rikoi

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What's political in the second game? Humour me since you can't explain what you think political is.
Man, you are the one that stated that every narrative game is driven by politics, you can't just use that question after people explained countless times what's political in the second game but you try to ignore arguments.
 
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Steve.1981

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Ellie is not nor at any stage Joel's daughter. He chose to save someone he bonded with for selfish reasons, without giving her a choice, and lied to her.
Come on man. Joel & Ellie very clearly develop a father daughter bond & very clearly need that from each other. She tells him how much she needs him in one of part 1's best scenes. He's not actually her dad, but he becomes her dad & that's why he does what he does at the end. Saves an innocent child that he loves like a daughter. I just can't dismiss that as selfish.

Also, Joel had no option to give Ellie any choice. Those lovely Fireflies saw to that. You know, when they jumped straight to "Kill the kid & cut up her brain!" without giving her a choice.

He did lie to her about it though. You're right there.
 
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Kadayi

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What's political in the second game? Humour me since you can't explain what you think political is.
Dick, you're the one who said

All narrative driven games have political agendas, developers draw from their experiences.
So the onus is on you to explain the political agenda of the first game?

Nothing you've written so far constitutes political. Do better with your next post.
 
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Dick Jones

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Man, you are the one that stated that every narrative game is driven by politics, you can't just use that question after people explained countless times what's political in the second game but you try to ignore arguments.
In your version of political agenda putting gay characters in games, Trans characters in games, playing as strong women? I that's your only opinion on politics in games then the opposite is true.
 
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bishopcruz

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Come on man. Joel & Ellie very clearly develop a father daughter bond & very clearly need that from each other. She tells him how much she needs him in one of part 1's best scenes. He's not actually her dad, but he becomes her dad & that's why he does what he does at the end. Saves an innocent child that he loves like a daughter. I just can't dismiss that as selfish.

Also, Joel had no option to give Ellie any choice. Those lovely Fireflies saw to that. You know, when they jumped straight to "Kill the kid & cut up her brain!" without giving her a choice.

He did lie to her about it though. You're right there.
People also don't realize that him saving Ellie is actually Joel completing his hero's journey. The man who didn't care about anyone but himself before runs in to absolutely suicidal odds to save the girl he couldn't wait to get rid of at the start of the game. Joel at the beginning would have let her die.

But no, Joel was and remains 100% justified on account of the fireflies being absolute delusional idiots who turned what would be a moral dilemma into a completely justified massacre.
 
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Kadayi

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In your version of political agenda putting gay characters in games, Trans characters in games, playing as strong women? I that's your only opinion on politics in games then the opposite is true.
So what was the political agenda of the first game?
 

Jon Neu

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Come on man. Joel & Ellie very clearly develop a father daughter bond & very clearly need that from each other. She tells him how much she needs him in one of part 1's best scenes. He's not actually her dad, but he becomes her dad & that's why he does what he does at the end. Saves an innocent child that he loves like a daughter. I just can't dismiss that as selfish.

Also, Joel had no option to give Ellie any choice. Those lovely Fireflies saw to that. You know, when they jumped straight to "Kill the kid & cut up her brain!" without giving her a choice.

He did lie to her about it though. You're right there.
Joel was someone who had everything taken away from him. Meeting Ellie was rediscovering his humanity, regaining a will to live -not simply survive- and amend the horrors of his past.

The world took everything away from him once, and he wasn't going to let it happen again.
 
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Rikoi

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In your version of political agenda putting gay characters in games, Trans characters in games, playing as strong women? I that's your only opinion on politics in games then the opposite is true.
The political agenda is very clear when you put trans characters, lesbian couples, pregnant women on the first line, bigot sandwiches, she-hulk characters,
killing the white male father and spitting on him.
Again, the political agenda in the second game is very clear, yet you stated that every narrative game is driven by politics but now you are backpedaling.
 

Dick Jones

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The political agenda is very clear when you put trans characters, lesbian couples, pregnant women on the first line, bigot sandwiches, she-hulk characters,
killing the white male father and spitting on him.
Again, the political agenda in the second game is very clear, yet you stated that every narrative game is driven by politics but now you are backpedaling.
Thanks for that clarification. In your eyes a political agenda is whether or not to include a trans character or not? That's every game made. The developers in every story driven game make a decision to include trans characters or not. Every game is now political. Ellie was a lesbian in the first game, how did it come as a shock to you in the second game? Bill was gay in the first games and you saw his partner after the school section. ND chose to make Tommy straight, just like they chose to make Riley gay. It's all political with your view.
 

Jon Neu

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pregnant women on the first line
We should do a Redlettermedia style prediction for the third part. I throw a couple fast ones:

-I bet there is going to be a scene in which Dina breastfeeds JJ in the open, and there is going to be someone making a sexist remark about it, to which she or Ellie will reply with braveness and stunningness.

-JJ is Jesse Joel or Joel Jesse.
 
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Rikoi

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Thanks for that clarification. In your eyes a political agenda is whether or not to include a trans character or not? That's every game made. The developers in every story driven game make a decision to include trans characters or not. Every game is now political. Ellie was a lesbian in the first game, how did it come as a shock to you in the second game? Bill was gay in the first games and you saw his partner after the school section. ND chose to make Tommy straight, just like they chose to make Riley gay. It's all political with your view.
I had no doubt that you would highlight only the trans part and ignore the rest.
See, I have no issue with trans or lesbian characters, I'd play a trans/lesbian story game if it was good.
I had no issues in playing Life in strange 1 and 2.
The issue is when you put all that stuff I mentioned into a single post-apocalyptic zombie game making it crystal clear what you are trying to tell.
 
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Kadayi

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I refer to my previous explanation. You can disagree with it but you need to explain your views on what you see as political in gaming so I can see how we differ.
LOL. I don't need to explain shit. There is no political agenda to the first game, it's a simple tale of disparate strangers thrown into a difficult situation coming together as they overcome hardships and travails on the long road to their destination, and change occurring. Nothing more, nothing less. Same as there's no political agenda in a whole raft of media of various types . The very notion that 'everything is political' never really holds up to any degree of actual scrutiny, which is largely why whenever some lack-wit throws it out there I quite enjoy watching them flail around trying to back up their nonsense when they're called on it. In that regard Dick, you've played your part admirably, with the doggedness and tenacity of the proverbial monkey caught in the trap simply because it won't let go of the nut it's clinging to. :messenger_grinning_smiling:
 
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