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Naughty Dog's Game Design is Outdated [NakeyJakey]
- Thread starter Maiden Voyage
- Start date
- Opinion
turtlepowa
Banned
I don't get your point. I know that i have other options, but that doesn't change the fact that i don't like this type of games anymore.
Killer Sakoman
Member
I hate the story and characters of TLOU2, but gameplay was excellent.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
I skipped out on Naughty Dog games during the PlayStation 3 era and they made me enjoy gaming on consoles again with their Uncharted and Last of Us series.
Open world games like BotW don't keep me entertained enough. Interactive environments may bring a few hours of enjoyment, but I need more than that to keep motivated.
This is why I'm not a huge fan of most open world games. Side quest are often just fillers to make you believe there's a lot to do in a game.
Open world games like BotW don't keep me entertained enough. Interactive environments may bring a few hours of enjoyment, but I need more than that to keep motivated.
This is why I'm not a huge fan of most open world games. Side quest are often just fillers to make you believe there's a lot to do in a game.
mikefrails
Banned
It’s funny seeing youtubers and the like try to intellectualize their opinions on the design now, as if they’ve ever ever worked on a game before.
Tomeru
Member
Its the wrong headline if all he did was explain why he didnt like the 2nd game, or ehy he doesnt like their games anymore. Which is fine, really. I stopped playing u4 somewhere down the raod, but I finished tlou2 because I loved most of what he didnt.
There is nothing wrong with what they did in tlou2. You cant please everyone, and all the emotional discussion surrounding it is testament to the high standard they were put to.
Oh well, times change.
There is nothing wrong with what they did in tlou2. You cant please everyone, and all the emotional discussion surrounding it is testament to the high standard they were put to.
Oh well, times change.
Javthusiast
Banned
Haven't watched the video yet, just here to say TLOU2 is gotg.
Ellery
Member
I see. Though no idea why it would bother you then. There are so many games that are not my type, but I am not fed up with them. I just play something else. Why focus on the negatives when you can cherish the positives?
turtlepowa
Banned
I had a PS4, played a couple of them and am fed up with them now. I know i don't like sports or battle royale games without being fed up, because i never played them. That's the difference.I see. Though no idea why it would bother you then. There are so many games that are not my type, but I am not fed up with them. I just play something else. Why focus on the negatives when you can cherish the positives?
deriks
4-Time GIF/Meme God
I imagined, and Banjo Kazooie still wins
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Outdated doesn't really mean anything with all the indie retro games getting attention these days. I think Naughty Dog want to break new ground in weaving story-telling into the gameplay of their games and make that gameplay cinematic even when you aren't necessarily good at it. If you understand their design goals it all makes sense. But this guy fundamentally misunderstood the goals of RDR 2 for example, lots of people do to be fair, they say the open world is at odds with the missions when the open world is meant to immerse you in characters/setting so the high stakes of the missions matter more. That said if this argument doesn't work on you RDR 2 doesn't force you to engage it's story missions after the tutorial section. I'd have to watch this video to know if he's once more missing the point but the title is clickbait and he's not really someone I agree with in general.
Okay... a little bit in... simple motivators work for games that aren't trying to be subversive or meta or whatever else. These games he's using as comparison points are so far off from either TLOU game.
I feel like he's circling the right airport, talking about how the characters mattered to him but the motivator was cliche for getting Ellie to Fireflies... he's avoiding the fact that because of falling in love with the characters you forsake the cliche motivator and what purpose that serves.
Okay now it feels like he's there at that airport.
I'm fine with this TLOU 2 stuff mostly, it'd be more interesting with divergent paths it can go down, I don't disagree with that.
The spare the main villain after slaughtering their underlings thing is a pretty common trope in all of media, honestly.
I dunno, this argument feels a little weak about criticizing violence while having you commit violence. I think he needed more to it.
Yeah, more rope stuff would be neat.
Yeah... so... it's not a "miraculous flashback" it's the game showing you her internal rationale for doing what she did, that talking point is so annoying.
More of this hand waving of the lessons as being elementary despite the gaming medium rarely touching on them. I'm not sure what the point is of reducing the themes the way he does and pretending they're so simplistic? What was more complex about the thematics of the first? When he cites another example of a game doing it "better" with MGS 3 his point wasn't that the theme was less elementary but that you had a choice... but... doesn't he admit a lot of the time in TLOU 2 you have a choice? He seems focused on the moments when you don't but the problem with that is how many moments in MGS 3 also take that away? It feels like cherry picking, especially when he flagrantly admits to a part in TLOU 2 where he kills a dog being powerful because he chose it... so both games do it? I'm fine with the idea the game should have had divergent paths and more options but he's trying to make a bigger case than that and I think that part of his argument falls a bit flat.
Okay... a little bit in... simple motivators work for games that aren't trying to be subversive or meta or whatever else. These games he's using as comparison points are so far off from either TLOU game.
I feel like he's circling the right airport, talking about how the characters mattered to him but the motivator was cliche for getting Ellie to Fireflies... he's avoiding the fact that because of falling in love with the characters you forsake the cliche motivator and what purpose that serves.
Okay now it feels like he's there at that airport.
I'm fine with this TLOU 2 stuff mostly, it'd be more interesting with divergent paths it can go down, I don't disagree with that.
The spare the main villain after slaughtering their underlings thing is a pretty common trope in all of media, honestly.
I dunno, this argument feels a little weak about criticizing violence while having you commit violence. I think he needed more to it.
Yeah, more rope stuff would be neat.
Yeah... so... it's not a "miraculous flashback" it's the game showing you her internal rationale for doing what she did, that talking point is so annoying.
More of this hand waving of the lessons as being elementary despite the gaming medium rarely touching on them. I'm not sure what the point is of reducing the themes the way he does and pretending they're so simplistic? What was more complex about the thematics of the first? When he cites another example of a game doing it "better" with MGS 3 his point wasn't that the theme was less elementary but that you had a choice... but... doesn't he admit a lot of the time in TLOU 2 you have a choice? He seems focused on the moments when you don't but the problem with that is how many moments in MGS 3 also take that away? It feels like cherry picking, especially when he flagrantly admits to a part in TLOU 2 where he kills a dog being powerful because he chose it... so both games do it? I'm fine with the idea the game should have had divergent paths and more options but he's trying to make a bigger case than that and I think that part of his argument falls a bit flat.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Exactly!
meech
Member
Well, how about the following points: If you put stealth sections\options in a game, give me the option to hide the bodies. I shouldnt have to wait until an enemy walks through gras but be able
to move the body there after him out. Also give the option to create distraction and\ or options to bypass combat completely. All these things were possible
in recent Deus Ex Games, why not in Uncharted 4?
to move the body there after him out. Also give the option to create distraction and\ or options to bypass combat completely. All these things were possible
in recent Deus Ex Games, why not in Uncharted 4?
Keihart
Member
I enjoy both of you examples and tbh, TloU2 would probably had been a better paced story if the idea of having hubs would of of panned out.
Next ND game it's probably gonna have a structure similar to how GOW is now if they get their way.
I'm a big fan of discovery in games, discovering mechanics even, which is why I love Botw, a game mechincally rich can keep me entertained if it gives me the ability to create my own goals, the las zelda shines at this.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
I haven't watched the video, but based on some of the points in the OP, I agree. I have never understood Naughty Dog Worship. They are the single most overrated developer.
They make games that are the inverse of something like Ninja Gaiden Black. That game had amazing game mechanics and was amazing to play, but the story was a joke. It is one of my favorite games of all time. Ultimately, I'd rather watch a really good movie than play a Naughty Dog Game, since movies have perfected the art of story telling, while stuff like The Last of Us is only good when compared to the overall shit stories found in most games.
They make games that are the inverse of something like Ninja Gaiden Black. That game had amazing game mechanics and was amazing to play, but the story was a joke. It is one of my favorite games of all time. Ultimately, I'd rather watch a really good movie than play a Naughty Dog Game, since movies have perfected the art of story telling, while stuff like The Last of Us is only good when compared to the overall shit stories found in most games.
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
"Outdated" is kind of a loaded term. One, because it implies "modern" design is better, which is laughable. Two, because it implies that sticking to a formula that has been around awhile is bad.
I've lost interest in their games and i can see why a lot of others aren't charmed by the glitz and bombastic action. Is what it is.
I've lost interest in their games and i can see why a lot of others aren't charmed by the glitz and bombastic action. Is what it is.
lock2k
Banned
Do you need to work on a game to analyze the design? Do you need to be a musician to know if you like a song? This is pointless. You don't have to be an expert in a craft from the inside out to be able to criticize it. I'm also not a game designer. I was once a game localizer, but I also have my opinions regarding design and everyone in this very site does as well.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
This just my opinion but one thing I have noticed through out years of gaming is how western developers hate their games to feel "gamey", they will do everything they can to get away from it and to me it huge, huge mistake and its gotten worst as the graphics became more realistic.
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lock2k
Banned
This. I like to have control 99% of the time. To me that is the definition of gaming. No offense at all to people who enjoy story driven shit, but I'm sick of it. I just want to press buttons like a madman and wreck havok.
Heavy_D206
Member
Ignoring the story completely TLOU2 has some of the best gameplay I've ever experienced and not many games with that style of gameplay can match it. The game has flaws, story and length being the worst offenders, but the gameplay is fucking fantastic.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
This going to get worst even in next gen because most of western developers aim is for their game to be more "immersive" and I go as far as say this pursuit for "realistic" graphics it whats going to hold gaming back.
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MiguelItUp
Member
You can already go through this thread and see salt, lol Jesus Christ. Like a lot of you have said, yeah, it's an opinion. I think he makes some valid points, but again, they are opinions that not everyone may agree with, hahaha.
bender
What time is it?
Throughout their history, they've mostly been followers and not leaders when it coms to game mechanics. Uncharted was a weird hybrid of a stripped down Tomb Raider with less of a focus on challenging platforming and puzzle solving combined with a 3rd person cover shooter which wasn't up to snuff with the competition (Gears of War). My favorite part of Uncharted is that the Tomb Raider reboots decided to follow the Uncharted formula instead of classic Tomb Raider.
TLOU is a more grounded, gritty version of Uncharted. The gun play feels better but that has a lot to do with how weighty and brutal it feels. It still has braindead platforming (with way less handholds collapsing beneath you) and puzzles.
Jak and Daxter went from a breezy 3D platformer with inspirations from Nintendo and then decided that style of game wasn't in vogue anymore and decided to take elements from GTA and turn Jak into an edgelord. Oddly enough, of all the stuff they've aped, I think the original is probably their most solid game mechanically.
Game design and originally aren't their strengths. Their focus and what they are good at is cutting edge visuals, bombast and story telling. It's mostly why I have little excitement for their output these days.
TLOU is a more grounded, gritty version of Uncharted. The gun play feels better but that has a lot to do with how weighty and brutal it feels. It still has braindead platforming (with way less handholds collapsing beneath you) and puzzles.
Jak and Daxter went from a breezy 3D platformer with inspirations from Nintendo and then decided that style of game wasn't in vogue anymore and decided to take elements from GTA and turn Jak into an edgelord. Oddly enough, of all the stuff they've aped, I think the original is probably their most solid game mechanically.
Game design and originally aren't their strengths. Their focus and what they are good at is cutting edge visuals, bombast and story telling. It's mostly why I have little excitement for their output these days.
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
Kinda feel this way with most games released anymore. They are almost all based off of formulas that have been financially successful. Every once in a while you'll get an outlier like Jet Set Radio, Breakdown, Sunset Overdrive, Titanfall or Mirrors Edge, but it doesn't take long for them to be replicated by many
TimFL
Member
This. I stopped playing Naughty Dog games for the story (TLOU1 was the last good one imho), only playing them for the „wow“ moment their graphics and gameplay cause.
mikefrails
Banned
You can critique whatever you want, but I can also discern who's credible and who's not. Beyond that it's just people shooting the shit about games.
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Ellery
Member
That is cool. Always important to find the games you like and don't let others influence you. No judgement I think it is a beautiful thing when people find games they love. It is much better than being unsufferable.
lock2k
Banned
But who defines what's credible?
Neff
Member
Yeah nah.
It's not saying much if you establish a format for critique and then undermine it by essentially saying 'well this one doesn't count'.
What's more, I disagree fundamentally. TLoU1 held me in its thrall due to the atmosphere and gameplay, not the story or characters. If anything, TLoU2 was a game which actually did manage to hook me in that regard. And the gameplay was leaps and bounds better than it was in the original.
It's starting to taint Japanese games now too. Capcom admitted they tried DMC5 with the same instant reactions and snappy animations of the old games, but decided against it because it looked 'silly' with the realistic graphics. So what we got was delayed reactions and more elastic animations at the consequence of less satisfying feedback.
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Halo is Back
Member
How dare people have opinions! The audacity! Only game designers can accurately assess my games because everyone else are dumb armchair game designers!
kuncol02
Banned
Looks like you didn't understood even one thing from that video?
If killing mushroms (which you do less in mario than climbing in average ND game) would require keeping analog in one direction then Nintendo would not exists as company for like 20 years or more.
kuncol02
Banned
Strange thing that no one would say same thing about movie, book, music or even food critic.
mindfreak191
Member
I enjoyed TLOU2, the whole video is on point and I share the same opinion with him, it's definitely not a masterpiece.
The Bloody-Nine
Member
You can add sports to that. "You haven't done it so you're not in a position to criticise it" as an argument is risible.
Le Big Mac
Member
I mean this is a thread discussing and critiquing TLOU2. If all you want is positive engagement with TLOU2, then maybe don't enter a TLOU2 dicussion/critique thread?I see. Though no idea why it would bother you then. There are so many games that are not my type, but I am not fed up with them. I just play something else. Why focus on the negatives when you can cherish the positives?
I'll be the first to admit (hell you can see my post history) that dicussing TLou2 can be tiresome given the frequency of threads with new videos/sales figures for them. As it goes, I imagine a lot of people have mixed feelings about the game so you would expect this kind of response?
Hawking Radiation
Member
/Thread.
bitbydeath
Member
Compared to what?
In terms of wide-linear, third person titles they are leading the charge.
Who else is even in that space? Or is that the issue and they want their games to become open world?
In terms of wide-linear, third person titles they are leading the charge.
Who else is even in that space? Or is that the issue and they want their games to become open world?
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Ellery
Member
All good no worries.
Bladed Thesis
Member
This is a pretty long video that I think isn't as well argued as the creator seems to think.
And while some points are easy to agree with, I think the majority of his points can be called "taste" or "opinions" and discounted as something everybody has to varying degrees.
And while some points are easy to agree with, I think the majority of his points can be called "taste" or "opinions" and discounted as something everybody has to varying degrees.
kuncol02
Banned
And Tomb Raider (2013) is best uncharted game on market. For some reason bow in second was not as satisfying as one in first.Throughout their history, they've mostly been followers and not leaders when it coms to game mechanics. Uncharted was a weird hybrid of a stripped down Tomb Raider with less of a focus on challenging platforming and puzzle solving combined with a 3rd person cover shooter which wasn't up to snuff with the competition (Gears of War). My favorite part of Uncharted is that the Tomb Raider reboots decided to follow the Uncharted formula instead of classic Tomb Raider.
TLOU is a more grounded, gritty version of Uncharted. The gun play feels better but that has a lot to do with how weighty and brutal it feels. It still has braindead platforming (with way less handholds collapsing beneath you) and puzzles.
Jak and Daxter went from a breezy 3D platformer with inspirations from Nintendo and then decided that style of game wasn't in vogue anymore and decided to take elements from GTA and turn Jak into an edgelord. Oddly enough, of all the stuff they've aped, I think the original is probably their most solid game mechanically.
Game design and originally aren't their strengths. Their focus and what they are good at is cutting edge visuals, bombast and story telling. It's mostly why I have little excitement for their output these days.
Great Hair
Banned
The tone of the game(world) is set from the get-go, those who played the prequel would know.
Find the ludo-narrative in TLOU2 ... i can not find one.
cutscenes, story being told > violence, kill to survive, revenge
gameplay, world to explore > violence, kill to survive, revenge
No one breaks character, everyone´s an asshole trying to survive among zombies, cannibals, bill cosbys, racist and gangs in this dystopian world of Seattle.
The gameplay fits the narrative on display. Even Indiana Jones killed people and he is a teacher, that prolly could be considered LND. I dont see any confilict between the story and the gameplay.
Maybe Ellie gets a grappling hook in part 3 ...
mikefrails
Banned
The only provable mark against the game's perceived success is the user score on metacritic. I'm inclined to side against the people with no provable credentials or history designing good games when it comes down to deciding who's right.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a game and explaining why, but when you start using words like "design" and going out of your way to produce content tearing down the game, then I ask for proof you could do better.
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