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[Maiden Voyage]

You should really have summarised OP, it's not going to get much traction posting an hour long video. I've picked out the relevant pomts though I've had to paraphrase some as literal quotes won't get the point across unless you do watch it all in context

Chapter I

• Explains that he's a player that relies on simple motivations in games. Like achieve this thing, kill this guy, do these tasks;
• Hates stupid downtime in games like slow walking exposition, tailing missions, escort missions etc.
• Says despite those criticisms he really loved TLOU I and the reason for this was because the motivator was the characters and story itself. The emotional attachment and story meant a lot of the simple gameplay mechanics could be overlooked or forgotten
• Says ND are the masters of breaking their game up between story and encounters in small portions so you never really get to appraise how shallow some of those gameplay elements are, until you replay them
• Highlights Bruce Straley interview on Ludonarrative Dissonance as something they chose to address in TLOU I

Chapter 2

• Story is more complex to the detriment of the player attachment;
• Too many strands to ultimately arrive at the same linear path/conclusion;
• Basically the overbearing story and scenes give no simple emotional attachments to evolve. Instead you have a lot of scattered people with diluted emotional attachments;
• The emotion felt was manufactured e.g. it wasn't the emotion of Ellie losing Joel he felt, it was the emotion of knowing you killed off the heart of the story;
• Concept was cool but it fell apart for consistency, gameplay and agency. There was basically too much divergent story in the player didn't have agency in, which led to not having that emotional investment in a lot of it;
• Highlights the boss fight - doesn't matter if you empathise with Ellie or Abby, if Ellie kills Abbie you fail as the 'player' - whereas killing Abbie was the player motivator in the previous 12 hours;
• Highlights the IGN review that picks up on this being the point. Player interactivity in an unalterable story gives a more 'affecting' experience.
• Says basically if that's true, the motivator then becomes the gameplay and combat itself. To kill and maim all these NPCs in the most graphic and creative ways because if it doesn't happen in a cut scene, it basically doesn't matter to the story and then makes the familiar argument of sparing Abbie runs contrary to this way of playing the game;
• Also says the key choice hinges on Ellie having empathy the player built up playing as Abbie - but Ellie wouldn't be aware of any of these incidents or happenigs to build that empathy herself;
• Admits he is being nitpicky and OCD, but says he is beating the drum hard because of all the hype and promise. We were basically promised a genre defining story and experience and it fell way short, so the level of criticism is relative to the level of perceived failure;
• Says the stealth mechanics etc. are still behind games from years ago (e.g. MGS);
• Recounted the ghost sorrow sequence in MGS where the game showed you all the players you had chosen to kill and it had a profound effect on him. Then highlights how TLOU II was focused more on advancing things like going prone, active stealth than improving the thing the game was lauded for (storytelling, emotional attachment etc);
• Says a lot of stuff is surface level and he would have expected something like the sorrow sequence when going through the city morgue to show the people you'd killed etc. Basically did the story presentation do anything creative to support the new mechanics and gameplay additions?
• Says that the most 'affecting' things were the things in gameplay (when he chose to kill a dog), not the cut scenes that were fishing for emotion from the player;
• Goes on to discuss how the game is 'brave' for subverting expectations by killing off Joel. Said it would have been braver to have actually less violence - likened it to mindless shooting in Bioshock Infinite;
• Says it is shallow, hypocritical and outdated if it's intent was to move the subject of video games as a storytelling device forward;
• Runs counter to Bruce Straley's searching question about making an immersive game without killing/murdering;

Chapter III

• At the end you can replay encounters which is amazing and turn your mind off violence and they took 3 and a half hours to complete on their own on hard.
• Game is twice as long and didn't do enough to make him enjoy the vast majority of the game which was meant to be the story and characters;
• Why didnt they actually use the rope for some intriguing puzzles or gameplay moments that don't exist in any other game (recalls one puzzle). Tying up enemies/zombies or tripwires which goes back to non killing/stealth options;
• Finding a note with a safe number on is not a 'puzzle';
• Why isn't auto pickup on by default? There is no circumstance where you will not want to loot items or supplies, no strategy for inventory management;
• Criticises the music as being more background music rather than story complementary;
• Pregnant woman (valued resource) is a medic - why? Story question;
• As a player he didn't want to do half the things Ellie did, and that persisted to the end which left a hollow empty feeling. The flashback was basically a deus ex machina moment and was cheap;

TLR
Basically ND games hide very well the little player agency and choice they actually present and how boring the games are to replay in which 90% is pressing up or triangle. They do this by portioning out the story and encounters by having a compelling story and characters you care about. TLOU II completely destroys this with an overly complex story that is so convoluted you look forward to the gameplay sections more. The only problem is these last at most 4 hours in a 25 hour game.

Despite this, the game does succeed in some places like Yara and Lev but in small portions. But despite the bigger cast and more story strands no characters evoked the close emotional attachment like Joel/Ellie and when it approximated it, the moment was usually over in a flash.

In TLOU I he became Joel
In TLOU I: LB he became Ellie
In TLOU II he became disspponited



Don't @ me bastards

 

[cormack12]

I watched th first 20mins of this before. Need to finish up. He seems to be making good points up until then.

 

[DeeDogg_]

Didn’t this guy say a bad word like 15 years ago? Yeah fuck him

-Era

 

[Ellery]

This is going to be another great TLOU2 thread on Neogaf. We desperately need more of those since we haven't had many of those in the last 5 months.

Also while we are at it please someone make a "september sales chart" thread where TLOU2 fell out of the top 10 game sales in Micronesia.

 

[kikkis]

I have never been bothered with ludonarrative dissonance like apparently some, though cynical me thinks its just low hanging fruit which critics latch onto when they dont like a thing.

also i disagree that design some has to keep up with times whatever that means.

 

[FunkMiller]

This is going to be another great TLOU2 thread on Neogaf. We desperately need more of those since we haven't had many of those in the last 5 months.

Also while we are at it please someone make a "september sales chart" thread where TLOU2 fell out of the top 10 game sales in Micronesia.

I for one dont think we’ve had nearly enough threads about how butch women are completely unrealistic in a post apocalyptic world full of people with mushrooms growing out of their heads.

Can somebody please pull their finger out?

 

[Cert.in.Death]

What started the trend of posting a YT take of *insert name here* to stir conversation? Is this just subversive traffic generation?

 

[martino]

tlou is fine at what he is doing (but i hope ssd will prevent what i hope were loading corridors doing thing not that interesting (a grudge i have more with uncharted 4/ tlou 2 in the end ))
rockstar missions design in open world are bad because they are doing them in an open world (btw ~half got ones are like that)

 

[PlayerPurple]

This should be super interesting, especially since Bruce Straley (TLOU1's Game Director) loved this dude's "Red Dead 2 is Outdated" video.

 

[theHFIC]

In with The Last of Is Part 2 is the Game of the Generation before the floodgates open.
This is a fact regardless of YouTuber opinions. Mash that like button and butt chug that subscribe button with my hot take.

 

[MH3M3D]

They mostly made sequels to PS3 games with better graphics. I promise you their next gen new IP will be groundbreaking.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

This is going to be another great TLOU2 thread on Neogaf. We desperately need more of those since we haven't had many of those in the last 5 months.

Also while we are at it please someone make a "september sales chart" thread where TLOU2 fell out of the top 10 game sales in Micronesia.

 

[cyber_ninja]

This dude is a moron.

 

[Ellery]

Come on grow up man. You could have posted that video in the dedicated TLOU2 thread. You are the one behaving like a baby responding like that.

 

[TonyK]

 

[abstract alien]

Before TLOU2, I'd have agreed.

 

[hemo memo]

Great video. I don’t play TLoU or Uncharted for the gameplay. Same reason why I don’t play Tomb Raider games for the story.

 

[The Alien]

Not a lot of chatter here about the video's actual content and topic.

Im really interested in whatever Naughty Dog is working on next. I'm aware they have over a decade of acclaim but I think it could be an important game for them both creatively and critically. I think he makes a fair argument and hopefully ND will continue to evolve.

• TLOU2 is on my backlog but thought it loooked great...especially since TLOU1 is in my personal Top 10. However, it wasn't universally as well received and sales seemed to have slowed.
• Uncharted is very samey in its level design and story structure. 2 is awesome, enjoyed 1, hated 3, 4 started strong but became a slog, Lost Legacy was good too but much more of the same as 4. I think they handed this franchise off at the right time.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

This is going to be another great TLOU2 thread on Neogaf. We desperately need more of those since we haven't had many of those in the last 5 months.

Imagine if Tlou2 was put on GamePass! (It would be the best game on it).

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Not a lot of chatter here about the video's actual content and topic.

Im really interested in whatever Naughty Dog is working on next. I'm aware they have over a decade of acclaim but I think it could be an important game for them both creatively and critically. I think he makes a fair argument and hopefully ND will continue to evolve.

• TLOU2 is on my backlog but thought it loooked great...especially since TLOU1 is in my personal Top 10. However, it wasn't universally as well received and sales seemed to have slowed.
• Uncharted is very samey in its level design and story structure. 2 is awesome, enjoyed 1, hated 3, 4 started strong but became a slog, Lost Legacy was good too but much more of the same as 4. I think they handed this franchise off at the right time.

A 50 min video on why game design is outdated is a big ask. It's unfortunate but it's to be expected. It's much easier to complain about what you think the contents of the video are, rather than watching it.

His criticism is a big part why the ND catalog has never really appealed to me. I played but never completed Uncharted 1-3. I will however watch the shit out of the YouTube "movie" cuts of the games. TLOU2 is the first one I skipped, based solely on my reading of the plot spoilers. I'm sure I'll watch at some point, but across the board it seems like a letdown compared to the previous games.

Much like his Rockstar game design video, I agree with Jake's take on ND. The only difference for me, is I never liked ND gameplay but I have loved but slowly soured on R*.

 

[MoreJRPG]

Didn’t this guy say a bad word like 15 years ago? Yeah fuck him

-Era

We should ban him because his views are different than ours!

 

[lifa-cobex]

"MGS 3 did it better"

Yup

 

[Roberts]

Not going to watch the video and can't speak for TLOU2 as I haven't played it, but Uncharted 4 gameplay was stuck in 2006. That doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing, but it's clearly outdated.

 

[PlayerPurple]

A 50 min video on why game design is outdated is a big ask. It's unfortunate but it's to be expected. It's much easier to complain about what you think the contents of the video are, rather than watching it.

His criticism is a big part why the ND catalog has never really appealed to me. I played but never completed Uncharted 1-3. I will however watch the shit out of the YouTube "movie" cuts of the games. TLOU2 is the first one I skipped, based solely on my reading of the plot spoilers. I'm sure I'll watch at some point, but across the board it seems like a letdown compared to the previous games.

Much like his Rockstar game design video, I agree with Jake's take on ND. The only difference for me, is I never liked ND gameplay but I have loved but slowly soured on R*.

Though I agree if we’re talking about ND’s single player, I think they do deserve more gameplay credit for their Multiplayer modes that few seem to talk about.

Uncharted 4 MP in particular is still, I’d say, the best feeling TPS this gen.

 

[ZywyPL]

Outdated is a wrong wording, it's more to the fact that the "TPP/over the shoulder cinematic experience" formula has reached the "enough is enough" point, like all the dude-bro shooters before in PS360 era, and like open-world titles or BR games from PS4/XB1 are slowly but surely reaching as well. A generation lasts 6-8 years, that's long enough to get bored by the same type of games over and over again.

 

[Terenty]

A generation lasts 6-8 years, that's long enough to get bored by the same type of games over and over again.

Prepare to play the same "cinematic experience" for the duration of the nextgen as well. That's where the money is

 

[turtlepowa]

It's not just ND. Im completely fed up with this cinematic 3rd person action adventure stuff with mostly mediocre gameplay and hours and hours of scripted scenes and videos. But many people still seem to like it.

 

[Woggleman]

If that is outdated then I guess give me more outdated. I will take it over the lastest microtransaction laced cash grabber any day of the week. There are plenty of games which are not story driven action games so why not play them?

 

[sublimit]

Only Naughty Dog's? This type of game design applies to 60% of AAA games with the other 40% being the Ubisoft type of open world games.

 

[Ellery]

It's not just ND. Im completely fed up with this cinematic 3rd person action adventure stuff with mostly mediocre gameplay and hours and hours of scripted scenes and videos. But many people still seem to like it.

I mean there are like thousand of different games including probably 100 indie games on gamepass that have no story and cinematics at all. Basically all Nintendo games don't have any cinematic and are purely gameplay.

How can you be fed up with this when only a handful of games do it and you have all the options in the world to play different stuff?

 

[Woggleman]

I mean there are like thousand of different games including probably 100 indie games on gamepass that have no story and cinematics at all. Basically all Nintendo games don't have any cinematic and are purely gameplay.

How can you be fed up with this when only a handful of games do it and you have all the options in the world to play different stuff?

Basically. Sony and a few others are really the only ones doing this kind of stuff. Do people want it to not exist at all?

 

[vpance]

TLOU2 was held back by lack of CPU power. Sure, the levels were bigger and there were more enemies, but they were still pretty dumb like in the first game.

 

[ZywyPL]

Prepare to play the same "cinematic experience" for the duration of the nextgen as well. That's where the money is

Call me naive but I truly believe than once the cross-gen period is over after 3 or so years, the devs will be able to focus solely on those 14 Zen2 threads and introduce never see before experience, if not even completely new genres.

 

[cormack12]

You should really have summarised OP, it's not going to get much traction posting an hour long video. I've picked out the relevant pomts though I've had to paraphrase some as literal quotes won't get the point across unless you do watch it all in context

Chapter I

• Explains that he's a player that relies on simple motivations in games. Like achieve this thing, kill this guy, do these tasks;
• Hates stupid downtime in games like slow walking exposition, tailing missions, escort missions etc.
• Says despite those criticisms he really loved TLOU I and the reason for this was because the motivator was the characters and story itself. The emotional attachment and story meant a lot of the simple gameplay mechanics could be overlooked or forgotten
• Says ND are the masters of breaking their game up between story and encounters in small portions so you never really get to appraise how shallow some of those gameplay elements are, until you replay them
• Highlights Bruce Straley interview on Ludonarrative Dissonance as something they chose to address in TLOU I

Chapter 2

• Story is more complex to the detriment of the player attachment;
• Too many strands to ultimately arrive at the same linear path/conclusion;
• Basically the overbearing story and scenes give no simple emotional attachments to evolve. Instead you have a lot of scattered people with diluted emotional attachments;
• The emotion felt was manufactured e.g. it wasn't the emotion of Ellie losing Joel he felt, it was the emotion of knowing you killed off the heart of the story;
• Concept was cool but it fell apart for consistency, gameplay and agency. There was basically too much divergent story in the player didn't have agency in, which led to not having that emotional investment in a lot of it;
• Highlights the boss fight - doesn't matter if you empathise with Ellie or Abby, if Ellie kills Abbie you fail as the 'player' - whereas killing Abbie was the player motivator in the previous 12 hours;
• Highlights the IGN review that picks up on this being the point. Player interactivity in an unalterable story gives a more 'affecting' experience.
• Says basically if that's true, the motivator then becomes the gameplay and combat itself. To kill and maim all these NPCs in the most graphic and creative ways because if it doesn't happen in a cut scene, it basically doesn't matter to the story and then makes the familiar argument of sparing Abbie runs contrary to this way of playing the game;
• Also says the key choice hinges on Ellie having empathy the player built up playing as Abbie - but Ellie wouldn't be aware of any of these incidents or happenigs to build that empathy herself;
• Admits he is being nitpicky and OCD, but says he is beating the drum hard because of all the hype and promise. We were basically promised a genre defining story and experience and it fell way short, so the level of criticism is relative to the level of perceived failure;
• Says the stealth mechanics etc. are still behind games from years ago (e.g. MGS);
• Recounted the ghost sorrow sequence in MGS where the game showed you all the players you had chosen to kill and it had a profound effect on him. Then highlights how TLOU II was focused more on advancing things like going prone, active stealth than improving the thing the game was lauded for (storytelling, emotional attachment etc);
• Says a lot of stuff is surface level and he would have expected something like the sorrow sequence when going through the city morgue to show the people you'd killed etc. Basically did the story presentation do anything creative to support the new mechanics and gameplay additions?
• Says that the most 'affecting' things were the things in gameplay (when he chose to kill a dog), not the cut scenes that were fishing for emotion from the player;
• Goes on to discuss how the game is 'brave' for subverting expectations by killing off Joel. Said it would have been braver to have actually less violence - likened it to mindless shooting in Bioshock Infinite;
• Says it is shallow, hypocritical and outdated if it's intent was to move the subject of video games as a storytelling device forward;
• Runs counter to Bruce Straley's searching question about making an immersive game without killing/murdering;

Chapter III

• At the end you can replay encounters which is amazing and turn your mind off violence and they took 3 and a half hours to complete on their own on hard.
• Game is twice as long and didn't do enough to make him enjoy the vast majority of the game which was meant to be the story and characters;
• Why didnt they actually use the rope for some intriguing puzzles or gameplay moments that don't exist in any other game (recalls one puzzle). Tying up enemies/zombies or tripwires which goes back to non killing/stealth options;
• Finding a note with a safe number on is not a 'puzzle';
• Why isn't auto pickup on by default? There is no circumstance where you will not want to loot items or supplies, no strategy for inventory management;
• Criticises the music as being more background music rather than story complementary;
• Pregnant woman (valued resource) is a medic - why? Story question;
• As a player he didn't want to do half the things Ellie did, and that persisted to the end which left a hollow empty feeling. The flashback was basically a deus ex machina moment and was cheap;

TL DR
Basically ND games hide very well the little player agency and choice they actually present and how boring the games are to replay in which 90% is pressing up or triangle. They do this by portioning out the story and encounters by having a compelling story and characters you care about. TLOU II completely destroys this with an overly complex story that is so convoluted you look forward to the gameplay sections more. The only problem is these last at most 4 hours in a 25 hour game.

Despite this, the game does succeed in some places like Yara and Lev but in small portions. But despite the bigger cast and more story strands no characters evoked the close emotional attachment like Joel/Ellie and when it approximated it, the moment was usually over in a flash.

In TLOU I he became Joel
In TLOU I: LB he became Ellie
In TLOU II he became disspponited



Don't @ me bastards

 

[DForce]

Outdated is a wrong wording, it's more to the fact that the "TPP/over the shoulder cinematic experience" formula has reached the "enough is enough" point, like all the dude-bro shooters before in PS360 era, and like open-world titles or BR games from PS4/XB1 are slowly but surely reaching as well. A generation lasts 6-8 years, that's long enough to get bored by the same type of games over and over again.

Yeah, give us more FPS games that have been nearly the same for 20+ years.

 

[Hendrick's]

I don't even think that can be argued. They make super pretty old-school games.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

You should really have summarised OP, it's not going to get much traction posting an hour long video. I've picked out the relevant pomts though I've had to paraphrase some as literal quotes won't get the point across unless you do watch it all in context

Chapter I

• Explains that he's a player that relies on simple motivations in games. Like achieve this thing, kill this guy, do these tasks;
• Hates stupid downtime in games like slow walking exposition, tailing missions, escort missions etc.
• Says despite those criticisms he really loved TLOU I and the reason for this was because the motivator was the characters and story itself. The emotional attachment and story meant a lot of the simple gameplay mechanics could be overlooked or forgotten
• Says ND are the masters of breaking their game up between story and encounters in small portions so you never really get to appraise how shallow some of those gameplay elements are, until you replay them
• Highlights Bruce Straley interview on Ludonarrative Dissonance as something they chose to address in TLOU I

Chapter 2

• Story is more complex to the detriment of the player attachment;
• Too many strands to ultimately arrive at the same linear path/conclusion;
• Basically the overbearing story and scenes give no simple emotional attachments to evolve. Instead you have a lot of scattered people with diluted emotional attachments;
• The emotion felt was manufactured e.g. it wasn't the emotion of Ellie losing Joel he felt, it was the emotion of knowing you killed off the heart of the story;
• Concept was cool but it fell apart for consistency, gameplay and agency. There was basically too much divergent story in the player didn't have agency in, which led to not having that emotional investment in a lot of it;
• Highlights the boss fight - doesn't matter if you empathise with Ellie or Abby, if Ellie kills Abbie you fail as the 'player' - whereas killing Abbie was the player motivator in the previous 12 hours;
• Highlights the IGN review that picks up on this being the point. Player interactivity in an unalterable story gives a more 'affecting' experience.
• Says basically if that's true, the motivator then becomes the gameplay and combat itself. To kill and maim all these NPCs in the most graphic and creative ways because if it doesn't happen in a cut scene, it basically doesn't matter to the story and then makes the familiar argument of sparing Abbie runs contrary to this way of playing the game;
• Also says the key choice hinges on Ellie having empathy the player built up playing as Abbie - but Ellie wouldn't be aware of any of these incidents or happenigs to build that empathy herself;
• Admits he is being nitpicky and OCD, but says he is beating the drum hard because of all the hype and promise. We were basically promised a genre defining story and experience and it fell way short, so the level of criticism is relative to the level of perceived failure;
• Says the stealth mechanics etc. are still behind games from years ago (e.g. MGS);
• Recounted the ghost sorrow sequence in MGS where the game showed you all the players you had chosen to kill and it had a profound effect on him. Then highlights how TLOU II was focused more on advancing things like going prone, active stealth than improving the thing the game was lauded for (storytelling, emotional attachment etc);
• Says a lot of stuff is surface level and he would have expected something like the sorrow sequence when going through the city morgue to show the people you'd killed etc. Basically did the story presentation do anything creative to support the new mechanics and gameplay additions?
• Says that the most 'affecting' things were the things in gameplay (when he chose to kill a dog), not the cut scenes that were fishing for emotion from the player;
• Goes on to discuss how the game is 'brave' for subverting expectations by killing off Joel. Said it would have been braver to have actually less violence - likened it to mindless shooting in Bioshock Infinite;
• Says it is shallow, hypocritical and outdated if it's intent was to move the subject of video games as a storytelling device forward;
• Runs counter to Bruce Straley's searching question about making an immersive game without killing/murdering;

Chapter III

• At the end you can replay encounters which is amazing and turn your mind off violence and they took 3 and a half hours to complete on their own on hard.
• Game is twice as long and didn't do enough to make him enjoy the vast majority of the game which was meant to be the story and characters;
• Why didnt they actually use the rope for some intriguing puzzles or gameplay moments that don't exist in any other game (recalls one puzzle). Tying up enemies/zombies or tripwires which goes back to non killing/stealth options;
• Finding a note with a safe number on is not a 'puzzle';
• Why isn't auto pickup on by default? There is no circumstance where you will not want to loot items or supplies, no strategy for inventory management;
• Criticises the music as being more background music rather than story complementary;
• Pregnant woman (valued resource) is a medic - why? Story question;
• As a player he didn't want to do half the things Ellie did, and that persisted to the end which left a hollow empty feeling. The flashback was basically a deus ex machina moment and was cheap;

TLR
Basically ND games hide very well the little player agency and choice they actually present and how boring the games are to replay in which 90% is pressing up or triangle. They do this by portioning out the story and encounters by having a compelling story and characters you care about. TLOU II completely destroys this with an overly complex story that is so convoluted you look forward to the gameplay sections more. The only problem is these last at most 4 hours in a 25 hour game.

Despite this, the game does succeed in some places like Yara and Lev but in small portions. But despite the bigger cast and more story strands no characters evoked the close emotional attachment like Joel/Ellie and when it approximated it, the moment was usually over in a flash.

In TLOU I he became Joel
In TLOU I: LB he became Ellie
In TLOU II he became disspponited



Don't @ me bastards

Updated OP.

 

[LazyParrot]

Maybe. They have been doing the same shit for ages. I'm not sure if that alone is enough to stop them from selling, though. Seems like many people just don't mind. I mean, CoD, BF, FIFA and pretty much every other major sports franchise still sell, right?

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Pregnant woman (valued resource) is a medic - why? Story question;

The point was that a pregnant medic is being put out into the field of battle, not that she was a pregnant medic.

 

[prinz_valium]

Dated not outdated
That's quite a difference

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

 

[Ellery]

You should really have summarised OP, it's not going to get much traction posting an hour long video. I've picked out the relevant pomts though I've had to paraphrase some as literal quotes won't get the point across unless you do watch it all in context

Chapter I

• Explains that he's a player that relies on simple motivations in games. Like achieve this thing, kill this guy, do these tasks;
• Hates stupid downtime in games like slow walking exposition, tailing missions, escort missions etc.
• Says despite those criticisms he really loved TLOU I and the reason for this was because the motivator was the characters and story itself. The emotional attachment and story meant a lot of the simple gameplay mechanics could be overlooked or forgotten
• Says ND are the masters of breaking their game up between story and encounters in small portions so you never really get to appraise how shallow some of those gameplay elements are, until you replay them
• Highlights Bruce Straley interview on Ludonarrative Dissonance as something they chose to address in TLOU I

Chapter 2

• Story is more complex to the detriment of the player attachment;
• Too many strands to ultimately arrive at the same linear path/conclusion;
• Basically the overbearing story and scenes give no simple emotional attachments to evolve. Instead you have a lot of scattered people with diluted emotional attachments;
• The emotion felt was manufactured e.g. it wasn't the emotion of Ellie losing Joel he felt, it was the emotion of knowing you killed off the heart of the story;
• Concept was cool but it fell apart for consistency, gameplay and agency. There was basically too much divergent story in the player didn't have agency in, which led to not having that emotional investment in a lot of it;
• Highlights the boss fight - doesn't matter if you empathise with Ellie or Abby, if Ellie kills Abbie you fail as the 'player' - whereas killing Abbie was the player motivator in the previous 12 hours;
• Highlights the IGN review that picks up on this being the point. Player interactivity in an unalterable story gives a more 'affecting' experience.
• Says basically if that's true, the motivator then becomes the gameplay and combat itself. To kill and maim all these NPCs in the most graphic and creative ways because if it doesn't happen in a cut scene, it basically doesn't matter to the story and then makes the familiar argument of sparing Abbie runs contrary to this way of playing the game;
• Also says the key choice hinges on Ellie having empathy the player built up playing as Abbie - but Ellie wouldn't be aware of any of these incidents or happenigs to build that empathy herself;
• Admits he is being nitpicky and OCD, but says he is beating the drum hard because of all the hype and promise. We were basically promised a genre defining story and experience and it fell way short, so the level of criticism is relative to the level of perceived failure;
• Says the stealth mechanics etc. are still behind games from years ago (e.g. MGS);
• Recounted the ghost sorrow sequence in MGS where the game showed you all the players you had chosen to kill and it had a profound effect on him. Then highlights how TLOU II was focused more on advancing things like going prone, active stealth than improving the thing the game was lauded for (storytelling, emotional attachment etc);
• Says a lot of stuff is surface level and he would have expected something like the sorrow sequence when going through the city morgue to show the people you'd killed etc. Basically did the story presentation do anything creative to support the new mechanics and gameplay additions?
• Says that the most 'affecting' things were the things in gameplay (when he chose to kill a dog), not the cut scenes that were fishing for emotion from the player;
• Goes on to discuss how the game is 'brave' for subverting expectations by killing off Joel. Said it would have been braver to have actually less violence - likened it to mindless shooting in Bioshock Infinite;
• Says it is shallow, hypocritical and outdated if it's intent was to move the subject of video games as a storytelling device forward;
• Runs counter to Bruce Straley's searching question about making an immersive game without killing/murdering;

Chapter III

• At the end you can replay encounters which is amazing and turn your mind off violence and they took 3 and a half hours to complete on their own on hard.
• Game is twice as long and didn't do enough to make him enjoy the vast majority of the game which was meant to be the story and characters;
• Why didnt they actually use the rope for some intriguing puzzles or gameplay moments that don't exist in any other game (recalls one puzzle). Tying up enemies/zombies or tripwires which goes back to non killing/stealth options;
• Finding a note with a safe number on is not a 'puzzle';
• Why isn't auto pickup on by default? There is no circumstance where you will not want to loot items or supplies, no strategy for inventory management;
• Criticises the music as being more background music rather than story complementary;
• Pregnant woman (valued resource) is a medic - why? Story question;
• As a player he didn't want to do half the things Ellie did, and that persisted to the end which left a hollow empty feeling. The flashback was basically a deus ex machina moment and was cheap;

TL DR
Basically ND games hide very well the little player agency and choice they actually present and how boring the games are to replay in which 90% is pressing up or triangle. They do this by portioning out the story and encounters by having a compelling story and characters you care about. TLOU II completely destroys this with an overly complex story that is so convoluted you look forward to the gameplay sections more. The only problem is these last at most 4 hours in a 25 hour game.

Despite this, the game does succeed in some places like Yara and Lev but in small portions. But despite the bigger cast and more story strands no characters evoked the close emotional attachment like Joel/Ellie and when it approximated it, the moment was usually over in a flash.

In TLOU I he became Joel
In TLOU I: LB he became Ellie
In TLOU II he became disspponited



Don't @ me bastards

Did you watch the video and write it all up?

I mean I don't agree with many of these points since they are basically all subjective, but I think it is remarkable people trading their time to do that especially if they don't like something and get nothing out of it.

 

[Clear]

Not saying that ND are above criticism, but unless you understand that their whole design philosophy is predicated on very specific goals for the presentation Specifically cinematic "naturalism", where every action is depicted with intricate interstitial animations, and the narrative is rigid to maintain the authorial voice, there's little to be said.

Honestly, armchair game-designers should go suck a big bag of rancid dicks imho.

 

[Ellery]

Not saying that ND are above criticism, but unless you understand that their whole design philosophy is predicated on very specific goals for the presentation Specifically cinematic "naturalism", where every action is depicted with intricate interstitial animations, and the narrative is rigid to maintain the authorial voice, there's little to be said.

Honestly, armchair game-designers should go suck a big bag of rancid dicks imho.

Good point and something often overlooked. There are too many people thinking they are qualified to present their uneducated opinions about something as objective criticism.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is wrong. 90% of ND games aren't pressing up or triangle. That's just dumb. And who is this guy to say what is outdated in game design?

 

[cormack12]

Did you watch the video and write it all up?

I mean I don't agree with many of these points since they are basically all subjective, but I think it is remarkable people trading their time to do that especially if they don't like something and get nothing out of it.

I was watching and made some quick notes. It's not for me I haven't played it so haven't really got an opinion. We all gotta chip in for GAF!

 

[Roberts]

If that is outdated then I guess give me more outdated. I will take it over the lastest microtransaction laced cash grabber any day of the week.

You are saying that as if almost every game is like this. I have played probably around 50 games this year and none of them had "in your face" micro-transactions (most games had non at all).

 

[Valentino]

MMMmMmMm so woke - yum. Your over the 3rd person action adventure? Okay girl bye. I'm not over them - so what now? It's a genre. Go enjoy another genre?

 

[Great Hair]

Here is the TLDW
"less QTE, less climbing and more grappling hook action!"

Mario, a fucking plumber kills mushrooms and abuses the last living dino on the planet while chasing a big turtle. WTF?!?!?!

Can we finally get a real plumbing game, Nintenda? Ludo-narrative dissonance my arse. Watta abaut Lora Kraft?

 

[Elysion]

The video makes some good points. I especially like what he said about how ND introduced a rope with amazing physics, but doesn’t use it for cool environmental puzzles or traps or something like that.