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Opinion Spoilers Game Dev Naughty Dog On The Last Of Us Part II’s Controversy, Characters, And Ending

tassletine

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He has all this people working for him pushing him to be more progressive and woke because he wants them to do so.



There's literally zero real diversity in the game, is all just empty tokenism for virtue signalling reasons.

And that's the problem with the woke cult, they claim to be about diversity but in reality their notion of diversity it's an incredibly constricted set of cliches and tokenisms based on the most Surface level idea of what means to be different.

Claiming that diversity is as important as gameplay, story or graphics already tells you the artificial political value they give to it. And also how detrimental diversity™ is for game development, because if they didn't spend so much time thinking how to portray trans characters, maybe they could have wrote a less lazy script.
I totally agree. When I saw big nosed Dina talk about the holocaust I was kind of shocked -- Not in a offended way -- but that was the point in the game where I realised that this game wasn't aware of what it was doing and was actually reinforcing stereotypes. That they deliberately desexualised the character didn't help.
I'm not sure if you know any Jewish people but the ones I know have never mention the holocaust -- and all are really funny. The game never captured that. Any sense of actual culture or real banter was lost, instead it was all just 'holocaust' and that's it.

The characters in this game are generally very boring though so at least we had that. I wouldn't know how to define Owen, apart from he's probably the lamest character I've seen in a videogame.
 
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tassletine

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What exactly would you change about that scene in TLOU2? Where would you put that scene in the game and how should it all go down in your eyes to be considered "good writing"?

Also in my opinion you are not supposed to like Abby by default. The game is not black and white. It is about parallels, perspectives, understanding, growing, the loss of what happens when your mind is filled with nothing but hatred and taking blind revenge and in essence about the consequences of what you do.
The problem is, it's almost ALL about parallels and that doesn't make a good story.
Yes, Joel gets his arms put up in a crucifix, yes we find Abby crucified at the end. Yes there are two pregnancies, but so what? Is this a religious story? No. Do they want it to be? I dunno.... Does it make me think? No -- because the symbolism is so obvious, yet utterly scattershot that it veers in parody.
I really don't need to see a genocide, a child kill it's mother, a birth, freeing of slaves AND crucifixion in the space of an hour. Just make a simple point concisely, like the first game did. This was ridiculous and utterly at odds with the realistic tone. Bigger and louder does not make it better.

There is a good, tried and tested reason that you traditionally don't put twists in the middle of stories. The reason is, is that the audience inherently knows they are cheap and manipulative, so after the thrill (which is the only real emotion you can get from a twist) you need to end the story quickly, just to show you have some respect for the reader. ND made basic mistakes with the structure that serve no real purpose and could have been done in any number of ways.

I think a much better ending would have been to show Abby escaping and being happy. Actually see her soften in comparison to Ellie hardening so the two stories are properly mirrored.
They both end up in opposite ends of the spectrum from where they started. Ellie THEN has to kill Abbie in cold blood as shes having dinner with her family.
Show us what Ellie has sacrificed her happiness to get there, and then ask the player to take that happiness away from someone else. Have the revenge feel cold, uneventful and pointless. Not some exciting fight.
 

Ellery

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They were prepared for death threats. What a lot of people don't know is that you get a lot of death threats if you are a figurehead in public life. This has always been the case and those threats almost never amount to anything. If you deliberately go out of your way to provoke like Druckman did then you should expect them, and he would have been warned about this by ND publicists.

Left wing groups use this tactic the entire time. Case in point -- Greta Thunburg.
The narrative by the left there is only "How could you attack a child"
When the actual truth is one of two things:
a) If the left are telling the truth, then it means that they are completely ignorant of how people act and react to situations. (ie they are stupid).
b) The left threw a child in front of the media to get that reaction. (ie: they used her to their advantage knowing full well this was going to happen)

Neil falls into category b).
ND can keep up the narrative as long as they can continue the argument and get the reaction they provoked. But sticking your hand in a lion's mouth and getting bitten isn't exactly a point. It's dumb as hell.
UNLESS you are using it to get publicity -- which is what they are doing here.
Druckman's tactic, and he has said as much, is to cause as much commotion as possible. He's from Israel remember, compared to daily bombings he lived through there, this would mean almost nothing to him.

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see it that way and it still wouldn't explain why Laura Bailey, one of the best VA in the business, is getting death threats for voicing a character.

And honestly in a way I am a little bit scared of what lengths people go through to justify death threats.

The problem is, it's almost ALL about parallels and that doesn't make a good story.
Yes, Joel gets his arms put up in a crucifix, yes we find Abby crucified at the end. Yes there are two pregnancies, but so what? Is this a religious story? No. Do they want it to be? I dunno.... Does it make me think? No -- because the symbolism is so obvious, yet utterly scattershot that it veers in parody.
I really don't need to see a genocide, a child kill it's mother, a birth, freeing of slaves AND crucifixion in the space of an hour. Just make a simple point concisely, like the first game did. This was ridiculous and utterly at odds with the realistic tone. Bigger and louder does not make it better.

There is a good, tried and tested reason that you traditionally don't put twists in the middle of stories. The reason is, is that the audience inherently knows they are cheap and manipulative, so after the thrill (which is the only real emotion you can get from a twist) you need to end the story quickly, just to show you have some respect for the reader. ND made basic mistakes with the structure that serve no real purpose and could have been done in any number of ways.

I think a much better ending would have been to show Abby escaping and being happy. Actually see her soften in comparison to Ellie hardening so the two stories are properly mirrored.
They both end up in opposite ends of the spectrum from where they started. Ellie THEN has to kill Abbie in cold blood as shes having dinner with her family.
Show us what Ellie has sacrificed her happiness to get there, and then ask the player to take that happiness away from someone else. Have the revenge feel cold, uneventful and pointless. Not some exciting fight.

I don't feel like ND didn't respect me. I think the structure was excatly how it was supposed to be in the end so the scenes had the biggest emotional impact and put me into the characters emotional

The ending idea sounds interesting, but the entire game would need to be different. It could definitely work, but it wouldn't work for what the game is right now just swapping out the ending. A big theme of the game was understanding other people's perspective and ending the cycle of violence.
If we were to take your idea then people would maybe complain about bad writing that playing as Abby and seeing her side doesn't make any sense in the end and you would be in Neil Druckmann's position and some people would overread what happens in your ending. Maybe some people would call you a transphobic for doing that to Lev or an insecure male for killing off a strong female character? Who knows.

(Also Ellie has sacrificed a lot and thought it was enough. She lost people. She lost two fingers. We don't know what happened to Dina and JJ though I guess they are in Jackson. The loss of the two fingers might actually be my very favorite thing in the game. As a metaphor)
 

tassletine

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I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see it that way and it still wouldn't explain why Laura Bailey, one of the best VA in the business, is getting death threats for voicing a character.

And honestly in a way I am a little bit scared of what lengths people go through to justify death threats.



I don't feel like ND didn't respect me. I think the structure was excatly how it was supposed to be in the end so the scenes had the biggest emotional impact and put me into the characters emotional

The ending idea sounds interesting, but the entire game would need to be different. It could definitely work, but it wouldn't work for what the game is right now just swapping out the ending. A big theme of the game was understanding other people's perspective and ending the cycle of violence.
If we were to take your idea then people would maybe complain about bad writing that playing as Abby and seeing her side doesn't make any sense in the end and you would be in Neil Druckmann's position and some people would overread what happens in your ending. Maybe some people would call you a transphobic for doing that to Lev or an insecure male for killing off a strong female character? Who knows.

(Also Ellie has sacrificed a lot and thought it was enough. She lost people. She lost two fingers. We don't know what happened to Dina and JJ though I guess they are in Jackson. The loss of the two fingers might actually be my very favorite thing in the game. As a metaphor)

There is never any justification for death threats. I hope you weren't suggesting that I was trying to do that? -- It's just a fact that if you're famous you will most likely get threats. There are too many weirdos out there with nothing better to do. It doesn't actually mean they are serious however.

What I do take issue with is Druckman using these threats to advertise his game and promote those themes within it. Especially after he stoked those topics in the first place.
That move is deeply cynical and possibly even sociopathic. It's a terrible way to behave and utterly transparent in my view. I like the gameplay a lot, and was moved, but the more I think about LOU2 it the more it falls apart and the more I get annoyed by it's cynicial, preachy attitude.

That ending above I just came up with on the spot for fun. No serious thought, The game would definitely have to be changed for it to work. I agree with that.
I've heard a few more suggestions for plots online, and all of them were pretty good but crucially they all worked on paper.

The ending to the game we have, doesn't work on paper in my opinion. I honestly don't know what it's trying to say, mainly because it continually pounds the same message through the entire game.
Ellie realises she has lost everything at the end, but as the viewer WE experienced that firsthand 30 odd hours ago, so this is no revelation, we're just watching what we knew was going to happen but crucially have actually FELT before, along with her.

Regards the fingers and loss etc. The main problem I have with the game is it tries so hard to be realistic, but those characteristics of realism don't gel with the actual story.
The justification as you say, is that Ellie has experienced loss, that would be fine if the story was set in the present day -- but she's living in a world where everyone she knows would have experienced the same loss -- And there is no mention of that, at all She would have so many people to lean on, but we never really see that.
The problem really is there are so many realistic, nuanced story details that are used to excuse plot (like Joel being comfortable in Jackson so his guard is let down) -- but when you actually examine the game under that sort of lens it falls apart.
There are some superb moments in the game and some moving acting but these things happen mostly in isolation and rarely make proper sense when you start to think about it.
It's very odd examining a videogame this closely, but the authors practically beg you to.
 

Ellery

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There are some superb moments in the game and some moving acting but these things happen mostly in isolation and rarely make proper sense when you start to think about it.
It's very odd examining a videogame this closely, but the authors practically beg you to.

You also have to factor in the human element, other perspectives, that people don't think the way we do in our present world and that humans are not perfect. They make mistake or act in way we see as illogical/stupid.

And to be fair if any videogame is put under the microscope as much as TLOU2 is being put under the lens now it would take a lot of the enjoyment. There will never be a perfect movie/show/game that makes perfect sense for each individual human being in every single moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Can also help a lot with it. Nobody here is an expert on what life looks like in a fictional future where fungus monsters run around.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it is completely fine if people dislike TLOU2 and questioning logical things and motives in the game and I also think it is fine to question the writing and narrative of Druckmann and Gross. Though I don't think the amount of scrutiny people apply to this game, compared to movies shows and other games they love, is fair.
 

bishopcruz

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You also have to factor in the human element, other perspectives, that people don't think the way we do in our present world and that humans are not perfect. They make mistake or act in way we see as illogical/stupid.

And to be fair if any videogame is put under the microscope as much as TLOU2 is being put under the lens now it would take a lot of the enjoyment. There will never be a perfect movie/show/game that makes perfect sense for each individual human being in every single moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Can also help a lot with it. Nobody here is an expert on what life looks like in a fictional future where fungus monsters run around.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it is completely fine if people dislike TLOU2 and questioning logical things and motives in the game and I also think it is fine to question the writing and narrative of Druckmann and Gross. Though I don't think the amount of scrutiny people apply to this game, compared to movies shows and other games they love, is fair.

Part of the reason that the game is under such scrutiny is because people loved the first one so much. TLoU is about as close as a modern game can get to being universally adored. Some people might not have loved the gameplay, but as far as the story and characters went they were considered top tier. When you go into something like that and then decide out of the gate that you are going to upset a large portion of your fanbase you had better have the writing chops to back it up. You have to be BETTER than the original in every way or you're going to get destroyed.

I think a lot of the scrutiny is due to the effulgent praise that was dropped onto the game as if it was the second coming of Mario when a sizable part of the audience, people who adored the first one, pretty much despise the story in the second. There is going to be a backlash to that, especially when a lot of the reviews ignore some pretty basic flaws.

Then there is what makes the game such great discussion fodder. It does a LOT of things right and a lot of things wrong too. If the things it does right stick with you and are the memorable parts, then you'll likely love the game. If the things it did wrong pull you out of the narrative, you are likely to despise it. I think the stuff it does wrong is so egregious that try as it might it can't come together as an effective whole. A lot of those same problems are also unforced errors that come from Druckman being too clever by half.
 
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The_Mike

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"Badly written" tlou2 came out and all of sudden gamers have MAs, BAs and Phds in creative writing because their favourite character got killed off, damn, telling Neil Druckman/naughty dog how to do their job like your more qualified, foh

Stop wasting your brilliance on video game threads, go show them how its done:messenger_grinning_smiling:

The thing is, everyone can give their opinion on art, since it's subjective.

What you are basically saying is "unless you create your own stories then stfu".

Remember that when you criticize music, movies, or god forbid - other video games. You are only allowed to praise them by your logic.
 
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highrider

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I think the hubbub has far more to do with the pacing of the story and intolerance for long cutscenes than any actual agenda. If the gameplay wasn’t broken up so much and so drawn out people wouldn’t care.
Except Naughty Dog who would probably just scream ‘bigot’ because that’s the story they’ve lined up for the media to exploit. The actual game is fine, but people can smell their publicity bullshit a mile off.
It’s deeply cynical, especially in regards to the stories of ND overworking their employees — which is something that I wouldn’t normally care about — but the game is so needlessly drawn out, that overworking your employees that much for so little gain just seems like deliberate sadism.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I haven’t even followed the production of the game enough to know about behind the scenes stuff.
 
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Matsuchezz

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The thing is, everyone can give their opinion on art, since it's subjective.

What you are basically saying is "unless you create your own stories then stfu".

Remember that when you criticize music, movies, or god forbid - other video games. You are only allowed to praise them by your logic.
I agree with you on this. Everyone can give their opinion about the writing and the game, but when they start calling someone a hack, talent less and lots of negative adjectives to a person they do not even know, that is when their opinion become trash, when they come at people with insults, death threats, and all that nonsense, they become extremists that abandon reason and embrace stupidity and madness.
The only way someone could ever come with that kind of behavior is when they can produce better stuff than the person they are attacking, and that would be questionable because they would not be humble but douche bags.
I guess probably an educated adult/person can come up with better arguments without insults, but as we have seen there is a lot of uneducated people that behave in such a basic level and let their emotions drive their mouths and actions.

About the interview, it is always nice to learn the creative thought process from the Creative people in this case Neil and Halley and some ideas that are added from anyone from the team, like when Ellie is attacked in the apartment when she is upgrading her weapons. I really enjoyed the game, the game resonated with me, I liked the approach with both characters, I wish there things would have played out differently, but overall is a great game, I have played it twice from start to finish, i have seen lots reactions to the game, and i think is great, and it will be remembered as a classic for a lot of people down the road. For many others it will be a game they did not like, for the emotional unbalanced people that hate trivial stuff such as games, they will keep hating it.
 
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Woggleman

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I hope they make more dark games. This has me in the mood for Days Gone 2 and I hope they go darker.
 

Dipsed

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Still trying to figure out what agenda people say the game conveyed which we already didnt know before the game was released lol
We knew ellie is gay
Abby is buff etc
So what agenda is there that is reeked throughout the game
Anti straight male agenda
It's what I love about this game. Deaths are so real. They are quick and unexpected. They're not corny deaths leading up to a set piece then ending in a speech while bleeding to death and dying exactly when you've finished your last sentence.
Still trying to figure out what agenda people say the game conveyed which we already didnt know before the game was released lol
We knew ellie is gay
Abby is buff etc
So what agenda is there that is reeked throughout the game
Anti straight male Agenda. Much worse if you are white ( btw I’m not white but I can see this pretty clearly )
Every straight male is killed abruptly while the heroine strong female leads avoid death almost miraculously.
The somewhat decent straight males are all abruptly killed. Jesse and Manny for example. These two were decent, caring and sacrificed themselves for those who they loved. Couldn’t be white though because you know white people bad

The rest

Joel- emasculated, selfish, murderous asshole.
Tommy- emasculated murderous asshole that’s an even bigger asshole, selfish and bitter at the end.
Owen- Selfish, emasculated, asshole that considered abandoning their pregnant wife plus a cheater.
Head of the human trafficking group greasy white male.
Dude at the party that called what’s her name the D word. White bigoted straight male.

Also the whole notion that the unreasonably violent bigoted religious group was like the cherry on top.

I can go on for days. This is like the feminist movement. It isn’t about equal representation, instead is about utter destruction and emasculation of the opposite sex.

Don’t know how to add the spoiler warnings here can someone help me. Thank you
 
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Umbral

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"Badly written" tlou2 came out and all of sudden gamers have MAs, BAs and Phds in creative writing because their favourite character got killed off, damn, telling Neil Druckman/naughty dog how to do their job like your more qualified, foh

Stop wasting your brilliance on video game threads, go show them how its done:messenger_grinning_smiling:
Degrees don’t mean shit. You know how many idiots there are with degrees? You know how many brilliant people there are who never finished high school or never went to college? It’s naive to suggest that you have to have some sort of degree to know what you’re talking about.
You also have to factor in the human element, other perspectives, that people don't think the way we do in our present world and that humans are not perfect. They make mistake or act in way we see as illogical/stupid.

And to be fair if any videogame is put under the microscope as much as TLOU2 is being put under the lens now it would take a lot of the enjoyment. There will never be a perfect movie/show/game that makes perfect sense for each individual human being in every single moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Can also help a lot with it. Nobody here is an expert on what life looks like in a fictional future where fungus monsters run around.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it is completely fine if people dislike TLOU2 and questioning logical things and motives in the game and I also think it is fine to question the writing and narrative of Druckmann and Gross. Though I don't think the amount of scrutiny people apply to this game, compared to movies shows and other games they love, is fair.
The issue with the “humans do illogical things sometimes” argument is that it can be and often is used to excuse poor writing. It’s not a good defense.

The ”mushroom monsters” argument is also bad because the game attempts realism despite being fictional, i.e., the mushroom monsters are based on a real fungus that takes over the bodies of insects. Regardless, fiction has rules. There have to be parameters to stay within, unless your goal is to create something completely chaotic.
 

bishopcruz

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If the game were good there'd be no controversy
Eh, just because there is controversy doesn't mean that it is bad, or not good.

That being said, if the story was told better I think that there would be far less controversy. If you expected that people might not like some of your plot points, but would accept it, with a few outliers not liking it at all, and it seems to be closer to a 50/50 split on love and hate, ya dun fucked up.
 

tassletine

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Anti straight male agenda


Anti straight male Agenda. Much worse if you are white ( btw I’m not white but I can see this pretty clearly )
Every straight male is killed abruptly while the heroine strong female leads avoid death almost miraculously.
The somewhat decent straight males are all abruptly killed. Jesse and Manny for example. These two were decent, caring and sacrificed themselves for those who they loved. Couldn’t be white though because you know white people bad

The rest

Joel- emasculated, selfish, murderous asshole.
Tommy- emasculated murderous asshole that’s an even bigger asshole, selfish and bitter at the end.
Owen- Selfish, emasculated, asshole that considered abandoning their pregnant wife plus a cheater.
Head of the human trafficking group greasy white male.
Dude at the party that called what’s her name the D word. White bigoted straight male.

Also the whole notion that the unreasonably violent bigoted religious group was like the cherry on top.

I can go on for days. This is like the feminist movement. It isn’t about equal representation, instead is about utter destruction and emasculation of the opposite sex.

Don’t know how to add the spoiler warnings here can someone help me. Thank you
That all may be true, but I'd take issue with the female leads being portrayed as strong. They're presented as strong or 'kickass' initially but ultimately they are portrayed as the most despicable characters in the story. If you look at it objectively this is a story about two insane women killing all sorts of people. You could very well make the argument that it deliberately slurs that community in this context.

However, given that the far left have an amazing capacity for blinkered thought, I doubt they'd see anything other than the proverbial Strong Woman. Especially since, in Ellie's case anyway, her actions are seen as her imitating Joel.
 
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That all may be true, but I'd take issue with the female leads being portrayed as strong. They're presented as strong or 'kickass' initially but ultimately they are portrayed as the most despicable characters in the story. If you look at it objectively this is a story about two insane women killing all sorts of people. You could very well make the argument that it deliberately slurs that community in this context.

However, given that the far left have an amazing capacity for blinkered thought, I doubt they'd see anything other than the proverbial Strong Woman. Especially since, in Ellie's case anyway, her actions are seen as her imitating Joel.

If women who are independent in a video game must also be without flaws then they'll be boring characters relegated to the sidelines or if they're main characters your story will be boring most likely. Some writers will tell you all great stories are borne from character, I don't fully agree but I do agree it's a huge component in many great stories and the one TLOU II is telling is more character than plot, so for these characters to not be multi-dimensional to appease wokeness or feminism would be a disservice to the narrative of the game, which is more important to me. Art will outlast whatever dumb identity politics rule the day, unless we start destroying art because the woke slider goes off the charts.
 

tassletine

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If women who are independent in a video game must also be without flaws then they'll be boring characters relegated to the sidelines or if they're main characters your story will be boring most likely. Some writers will tell you all great stories are borne from character, I don't fully agree but I do agree it's a huge component in many great stories and the one TLOU II is telling is more character than plot, so for these characters to not be multi-dimensional to appease wokeness or feminism would be a disservice to the narrative of the game, which is more important to me. Art will outlast whatever dumb identity politics rule the day, unless we start destroying art because the woke slider goes off the charts.
There's are flaws and then there's this, which aren't so much flaws as just someone ramming imagery down your throat and going "What do you think now?"
I'd agree with you usually as the point you're making is solid -- but I don't think that the characters are well written enough for that to be the case here.
The characters are well acted, and there are some great emotional moments, but those work in isolation. I don't think they are particularly multidimensional either, as they all come across quite similarly and don't get into any serious conflict with each other -- which is bizarre given the circumstances.

I don't consider this game art either as it's clearly designed by committee and don't see much of a personal touch -- It's an iteration of gameplay that ND have been doing for well over a decade.
As far as I'm concerned it's the studio doing the same thing but now just aiming the story at young women or activists, who's group traditionally contain a lot of beta males.
I find those people to be pretty dull in real life -- which is maybe why I didn't enjoy hanging around with a commercialised version of them here.

I really think Druckman got lucky with the first game. He read The Road and managed to piggyback off Cormac McCarthy, but he certainly doesn't have the writing chops for this. He believes he does and is trying really hard but I found it quite embarrassing because of that -- And it's weird feeling embarrassed for a videogame.
I did enjoy the gameplay a lot though and actually think that people are deliberately shrugging that part of the game off to neg the rest of it.
 
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Ellery

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Come on guys many of these posts read like some of you feel genuinely attacked that this game features women in the main roles and are trying your hardest to blame it on wokeness, far left or anti male agenda.

Doesn't it at some point make you feel like you are exactly like the people who you are angry at but just from the exact opposite side? Like the people being triggered that Star Wars Fallen Order features a white male, but in a mirrored universe lmao.

Next up Vice article Uncharted 4 featuring 3 straight males going on a road trip behind a woman's back to fight a black woman. FAR RIGHT FANTASY SIMULATOR?
 

Amiga

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You also have to factor in the human element, other perspectives, that people don't think the way we do in our present world and that humans are not perfect. They make mistake or act in way we see as illogical/stupid.

And to be fair if any videogame is put under the microscope as much as TLOU2 is being put under the lens now it would take a lot of the enjoyment. There will never be a perfect movie/show/game that makes perfect sense for each individual human being in every single moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Can also help a lot with it. Nobody here is an expert on what life looks like in a fictional future where fungus monsters run around.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it is completely fine if people dislike TLOU2 and questioning logical things and motives in the game and I also think it is fine to question the writing and narrative of Druckmann and Gross. Though I don't think the amount of scrutiny people apply to this game, compared to movies shows and other games they love, is fair.

Fiction dose depend on the audience playing along. but the writer must be crafty in leading them in a reasonably plausible way through it. but the writer is also constrained by the world he built. you can't just ham fist drama and demand reactions. this is an ancient rule of drama this failure in storytelling is so common it has a famous term"deus ex machina", used to describe contrived events that force changes in the circumstances.
 
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tassletine

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You also have to factor in the human element, other perspectives, that people don't think the way we do in our present world and that humans are not perfect. They make mistake or act in way we see as illogical/stupid.

And to be fair if any videogame is put under the microscope as much as TLOU2 is being put under the lens now it would take a lot of the enjoyment. There will never be a perfect movie/show/game that makes perfect sense for each individual human being in every single moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Can also help a lot with it. Nobody here is an expert on what life looks like in a fictional future where fungus monsters run around.

Don't get me wrong though. I think it is completely fine if people dislike TLOU2 and questioning logical things and motives in the game and I also think it is fine to question the writing and narrative of Druckmann and Gross. Though I don't think the amount of scrutiny people apply to this game, compared to movies shows and other games they love, is fair.
I completely agree. I would have forgiven everything if the game wasn't so badly paced -- But if you're going to force me to watch 40 minutes of character development -- then I'm going to dive right in.
If I saw a TV show like this I would have turned it off within a couple of minutes.

It's an interesting thing suspension of disbelief, it can help a lot, but I think it works best when things are abstract, not detailed like here -- And also, suspension of disbelief is actually what you're paying for, so, as they have done their upmost to make this as real as possible, they can get criticised on the work.

One example I hear is the comparison between Abby and Arnie. Some people say it's unrealistic that she's so buff, then another group will come in and say 'you never had a problem with Arnie or Chris Redfield etc)--- But Resident Evil is a cartoon and Arnie never did any serious films -- That's the real problem here. You can feel those conflicting tones and decisions made by committee, and that doesn't sit well with the intimate story it's trying to tell.
 

tassletine

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Come on guys many of these posts read like some of you feel genuinely attacked that this game features women in the main roles and are trying your hardest to blame it on wokeness, far left or anti male agenda.

Doesn't it at some point make you feel like you are exactly like the people who you are angry at but just from the exact opposite side? Like the people being triggered that Star Wars Fallen Order features a white male, but in a mirrored universe lmao.

Next up Vice article Uncharted 4 featuring 3 straight males going on a road trip behind a woman's back to fight a black woman. FAR RIGHT FANTASY SIMULATOR?
I enjoyed the game but given that the far left DO have an anti white male agenda and say as much, I think it's fair to discuss it now it's a trope.
As far as I'm concerned the game is deliberately trying to evoke the response from the right that it has. It's designed to piss people off. It's a revenge story after all, and the point you're making about seeing the other side is the only point really made in the game. Again and again and again. People tend to get annoyed when you overuse tropes, so it's correct to call out that lecture as being boring.

I do wish the defense was more eloquent though, as yes, the far right are just as hysterical as the far left.
 

Yoboman

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“I have an agenda” - Neil Druckmann.
He knew exactly what the fuck he was doing. The game reeks of agenda. Of course, people who send death threats are scum but it doesn’t change the fact that the game is inherently divisive due to its glaring and -in my opinion- disgusting agenda.
Whats the disgusting agenda?
 

Ellery

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Fiction dose depend on the audience playing along. but the writer must be crafty in leading them in a reasonably plausible way through it. but the writer is also constrained by the world he built. you can't just ham fist drama and demand reactions. this is an ancient rule of drama this failure in storytelling is so common it has a famous term"deus ex machina", used to describe contrived events that force changes in the circumstances.

Yup. Worked well for me with TLOU2 and I am thankful for it, but then again I went in blind (wasn't spoiled) and I wasn't looking for agendas or politics, but rather a videogame sequel to one of my favorite games of all time. I was enjoying entertainment and it clicked with me incredibly well.

(I am not saying the game is perfect. Nothing ever really is)

I completely agree. I would have forgiven everything if the game wasn't so badly paced -- But if you're going to force me to watch 40 minutes of character development -- then I'm going to dive right in.
If I saw a TV show like this I would have turned it off within a couple of minutes.

It's an interesting thing suspension of disbelief, it can help a lot, but I think it works best when things are abstract, not detailed like here -- And also, suspension of disbelief is actually what you're paying for, so, as they have done their upmost to make this as real as possible, they can get criticised on the work.

One example I hear is the comparison between Abby and Arnie. Some people say it's unrealistic that she's so buff, then another group will come in and say 'you never had a problem with Arnie or Chris Redfield etc)--- But Resident Evil is a cartoon and Arnie never did any serious films -- That's the real problem here. You can feel those conflicting tones and decisions made by committee, and that doesn't sit well with the intimate story it's trying to tell.

Completely fine if you found the pacing to be bad and boring. It is a valid argument and I agree to a degree that TLOU2 could have been "cleaner" in that regard and more simple. Ever so slightly cutting some fat here and there, but TLOU2 is also a game that doesn't rely on spoon feeding certain things. It requires you to make certain connections and some scenes are longer than they need to be in order to put you in certain positions (emotionally).
You have to open up and put yourself in it and I can understand that it isn't to everyone's liking how the game is structured (I would have changed things as well and move stuff around and cut/add things even though TLOU2 is my favorite game of all time).

I really really really really don't understand what you are trying to say with Abby and Chris Redfield from Resident Evil and why Resident Evil is a cartoon? I think Abby being "buff" is also a contrast to Ellie, who is small and nimble but still deadly. So when you play Abby you are having all these parallels to Ellie despite Abby and Ellie are physically different in a big way.

And in one way I think Abby being strong and muscular is showing how she "prepared" for finding Joel. Abby's mucles represent her preparation for that moment and she spent all that time obsessing over Joel like people obsessing over muscles. It is a metaphor. She was ready.

I enjoyed the game but given that the far left DO have an anti white male agenda and say as much, I think it's fair to discuss it now it's a trope.
As far as I'm concerned the game is deliberately trying to evoke the response from the right that it has. It's designed to piss people off. It's a revenge story after all, and the point you're making about seeing the other side is the only point really made in the game. Again and again and again. People tend to get annoyed when you overuse tropes, so it's correct to call out that lecture as being boring.

I do wish the defense was more eloquent though, as yes, the far right are just as hysterical as the far left.

Now is the question if you see Naughty Dog as far left and if you had that expectation when going into the game.
Personally I don't see an anti white male agenda in TLOU2. Yup the game has a diverse set of characters and yes there are white people doing bad things in this game (just like there are black people doing bad things. Hello Isaac) and even though you play as two females the most important character is still a straight white male who is constantly in your mind and he gets all the best scenes in the game.
 

ZZZZ

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Yep, i completely missed my mark on Joel's character.
According to Troy Baker he's the mirror image of David.

 

tassletine

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You have to open up and put yourself in it and I can understand that it isn't to everyone's liking how the game is structured (I would have changed things as well and move stuff around and cut/add things even though TLOU2 is my favorite game of all time).

I really really really really don't understand what you are trying to say with Abby and Chris Redfield from Resident Evil and why Resident Evil is a cartoon? I think Abby being "buff" is also a contrast to Ellie, who is small and nimble but still deadly. So when you play Abby you are having all these parallels to Ellie despite Abby and Ellie are physically different in a big way.

And in one way I think Abby being strong and muscular is showing how she "prepared" for finding Joel. Abby's mucles represent her preparation for that moment and she spent all that time obsessing over Joel like people obsessing over muscles. It is a metaphor. She was ready.



Now is the question if you see Naughty Dog as far left and if you had that expectation when going into the game.
Personally I don't see an anti white male agenda in TLOU2. Yup the game has a diverse set of characters and yes there are white people doing bad things in this game (just like there are black people doing bad things. Hello Isaac) and even though you play as two females the most important character is still a straight white male who is constantly in your mind and he gets all the best scenes in the game.

I don't buy the argument that you need to be open to appreciate this game. It was pretty heavy handed and it wasn't so much as I was allowed to draw connections, but forced to.
Genocide, cruxifiction, preganancy etc, are not subtle nods that you need to look out for and decode, but heavy handed wallops trying to force meaning where proper character writing could have done the job. It's subtext forced to surface level.

Regards the muscles being a metaphore. I found Abby's appearance jarring, but only in the way that it looked like her face was separate from her body. I had the same problem with Chris Redfield though and Arnie has always looked ridiculous. Arnie's frame works in a cartoon setting (like Predator for example) but you couldn't make any real sense of Predators' logic as it barely has any, luckily that film doesn't ask you to believe in it.

The Last of Us 2 does though, it tries to ground it's self so seriously that Abby sticks out quite a bit. You can't have ultra realism one minute and then the muscles are a metaphore the next. It needs to be consistent for that to work.
It's not that people like her actually exist, they obviously do, but I've only met a woman who looks like that twice in my life, so Abby's inclusion in the LOU world seems forced -- And that's beside the argument about how much training you need to get to that level, and lots of other fine detail nitpicks like not being able to swim as well, run as fast or climb rope etc.
-- But I seriously think that's the point, make her as unlikable and unrelatable as possible, then get the audience to relate her -- There's nothing wrong with that, except in my opinion they failed. They made her character too dull, too asexual and basically all attitude -- Almost completely one dimensional.

It's a very standard thing to make your leads bland, most Hollywood films do this (Avatar) but here it's at odds with the message as it reduces the contrast between the characters. Same with Ellie and Dina -- their voices are almost identical. In contrast to the first game Joel and Ellie are complete opposites.

I do see Naughty Dog (or Druckman at least) as being far left as that is pretty well known, and Druckman's pessimistic attitude certainly fits in with that way of thinking. But I kept the leaks etc away. I did know that
Joel Died,
but I actually don't mind that a plot device. It actually seemed pretty obvious to me that was going to happen given ND's marketing.

As for an anti male agenda, I don't think it's that explicit, and I'm certainly not one to start crying about it (I'm from the UK and British men have been portrayed as the villains in Hollywood as long as I've been alive) but the test in these situations is to switch the race of the characters -- And if you did that it would raise all sorts of questions as to why it's mainly black men getting shot.
 

Ellery

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I don't buy the argument that you need to be open to appreciate this game. It was pretty heavy handed and it wasn't so much as I was allowed to draw connections, but forced to.
Genocide, cruxifiction, preganancy etc, are not subtle nods that you need to look out for and decode, but heavy handed wallops trying to force meaning where proper character writing could have done the job. It's subtext forced to surface level.

Regards the muscles being a metaphore. I found Abby's appearance jarring, but only in the way that it looked like her face was separate from her body. I had the same problem with Chris Redfield though and Arnie has always looked ridiculous. Arnie's frame works in a cartoon setting (like Predator for example) but you couldn't make any real sense of Predators' logic as it barely has any, luckily that film doesn't ask you to believe in it.

The Last of Us 2 does though, it tries to ground it's self so seriously that Abby sticks out quite a bit. You can't have ultra realism one minute and then the muscles are a metaphore the next. It needs to be consistent for that to work.
It's not that people like her actually exist, they obviously do, but I've only met a woman who looks like that twice in my life, so Abby's inclusion in the LOU world seems forced -- And that's beside the argument about how much training you need to get to that level, and lots of other fine detail nitpicks like not being able to swim as well, run as fast or climb rope etc.
-- But I seriously think that's the point, make her as unlikable and unrelatable as possible, then get the audience to relate her -- There's nothing wrong with that, except in my opinion they failed. They made her character too dull, too asexual and basically all attitude -- Almost completely one dimensional.

It's a very standard thing to make your leads bland, most Hollywood films do this (Avatar) but here it's at odds with the message as it reduces the contrast between the characters. Same with Ellie and Dina -- their voices are almost identical. In contrast to the first game Joel and Ellie are complete opposites.

I do see Naughty Dog (or Druckman at least) as being far left as that is pretty well known, and Druckman's pessimistic attitude certainly fits in with that way of thinking. But I kept the leaks etc away. I did know that
Joel Died,
but I actually don't mind that a plot device. It actually seemed pretty obvious to me that was going to happen given ND's marketing.

As for an anti male agenda, I don't think it's that explicit, and I'm certainly not one to start crying about it (I'm from the UK and British men have been portrayed as the villains in Hollywood as long as I've been alive) but the test in these situations is to switch the race of the characters -- And if you did that it would raise all sorts of questions as to why it's mainly black men getting shot.

Well even though we interpret different things from the same material I can appreciate that you articulate your concerns the way you do and I hope people give other games in the future the same scrutiny TLOU2 is getting although it is rare for games to go that deep and have that much surface area for discussion/interpretation.

Also about the Abby part I didn't mean a metaphor (my bad), but rather a manifestation/product of your environment, past, mission and preparation.

Would it be right/Do people want to never have women like that in fictional video games or other forms of entertainment, because we rarely see them in our current real world? When I first played the game Abby's physique was unusual to me as well, but the awkwardness of it also made me realize that it was the way I look at it and not the character or the character design.
 
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Amiga

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I agree to a degree that TLOU2 could have been "cleaner" in that regard and more simple. Ever so slightly (1)cutting some fat here and there, but TLOU2 is also a game that doesn't rely on spoon feeding certain things. It (2)requires you to make certain connections and some scenes are longer than they need to be in order to (3)put you in certain positions (emotionally).
You have to open up and put yourself in it and I can understand that it isn't to everyone's liking how the game is structured (1)I would have changed things as well and move stuff around and cut/add things even though TLOU2 is my favorite game of all time).

(4)I hope people give other games in the future the same scrutiny TLOU2 is getting

1) so you agree the narrative needs work, so much that you mentioned it twice. plenty feel the same. you are correct.
2) it's the job of the narrative to be compelling.
3) that is why the characters don't make sense. the writer was just using them as tools to manipulate the audience. that has been the focus of the game all throughout, how you react, not how the characters react. that's why there is point to the people here trying to rationalize the characters.
4) the theme of suspense naturally puts the audience in a higher state of focus, paying extra attention to detail to guess what the situation is and what could happen next. that's why some add element's of comic relief and satire to their work. they are asking the audience to relax and go easy on them. what Niel dose is the opposite he raised the stakes against himself then cries foul when his work falls flat.
 
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tassletine

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Well even though we interpret different things from the same material I can appreciate that you articulate your concerns the way you do and I hope people give other games in the future the same scrutiny TLOU2 is getting although it is rare for games to go that deep and have that much surface area for discussion/interpretation.

Also about the Abby part I didn't mean a metaphor (my bad), but rather a manifestation/product of your environment, past, mission and preparation.

Would it be right/Do people want to never have women like that in fictional video games or other forms of entertainment, because we rarely see them in our current real world? When I first played the game Abby's physique was unusual to me as well, but the awkwardness of it also made me realize that it was the way I look at it and not the character or the character design.
I agree. Thanks for articulating yourself clearly as well. Discourse like this is always enjoyable.

I think it's fine to have any sort of person in a videogame as long as it fits the context. Although I don't play it, it looks like Fortnite does this sort of thing well. I think it's a fair assessment to say that this was not the way to do it here -- And by that I mean they really, really tried to make you hate Abby -- so a large majority of the audience did.
I'll maintain that the actual gameplay with Abbie was the strongest part of the game -- but by that time the story was so muddled it overwhelmed the 'empathy' part that was supposed to redeem her. At least for me.

I have to say though I'm still confused as to what the game was trying to say (if it was at all) -- as if it's anti revenge but also a story about two people -- Then Abby got her revenge, and escaped to an idylic life, but Ellie gave up on that revenge and got shafted.
That seems like a really bad message to send, but crucially counter to what the rest of the game was trying to say. I mean Abby was crucified and escaped to heaven (metaphorically) but what does that mean? It just seems to be pilling on metaphore for the sake of doing it.

I think the bigger issue is probably just bringing in ANY real world politics into a videogame -- as this always seems to rile people up. Just setting something in a real place can be seen as a political statement now. I seem to remember with Far Cry 5 people were enraged that it didn't tackle Trump, even though it was developed before he was in office -- And that was mainly because it was set in the US.
 
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sainraja

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I really wasn’t bothered by the few forced woke moments in the game, it didn’t detract from the experience for me. If anything I appreciated that female empowerment didn’t take the form of all the male characters being morons or uncontrollable and violent. They all get killed, but I consider it a small victory. Having played through it finally I guess I’m not seeing what all the hubbub is about, really good game imo. And I didn’t love the first one, I think it had a much better story. This one has much better gameplay though, so I’m good.

Gameplay wise, part 2 is definitely better from the first and I was so glad not to see the silly water plank puzzles.
 

Clear

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There is never any justification for death threats. I hope you weren't suggesting that I was trying to do that? -- It's just a fact that if you're famous you will most likely get threats. There are too many weirdos out there with nothing better to do. It doesn't actually mean they are serious however.

What I do take issue with is Druckman using these threats to advertise his game and promote those themes within it. Especially after he stoked those topics in the first place.
That move is deeply cynical and possibly even sociopathic. It's a terrible way to behave and utterly transparent in my view. I like the gameplay a lot, and was moved, but the more I think about LOU2 it the more it falls apart and the more I get annoyed by it's cynicial, preachy attitude.

Yikes. So you're supposed to ignore death threats as part of the cost of doing business, but remarking upon them is "sociopathic"?

Do you not recognize how twisted your justifications are?

The guy made a game not everyone liked, and now he's a sociopath because he had the temerity to defend his work and his collaborators against anonymous internet scumbags?
 
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Umbral

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It’s a shame they didn’t take any risks with the gameplay/mechanics like they did with the story.
 

A.Romero

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It’s been expressed in just about every Part II thread. It won’t take you long to find. In fact, scroll up and read.

I did. Maybe I'm dumb but I can't pinpoint it. I see that there things that don't make sense. I'm curious about what is what the game supposed to be pushing. That women are stronger? White men are trash? Normalizing homosexuality?
 

Umbral

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There are gays, muscular women and lev is trans. That is pretty much it.
You are being dishonest again.
I did. Maybe I'm dumb but I can't pinpoint it. I see that there things that don't make sense. I'm curious about what is what the game supposed to be pushing. That women are stronger? White men are trash? Normalizing homosexuality?
These are the one’s I’ve seen. I do not agree with all of these and haven’t looked closely at many of them:
  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive.
  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian.
  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain.
  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance.
  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently.
  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered.
  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.
  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men.
  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets.
  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina.
  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol.
  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering.
  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction.
  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart.
  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male.
  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men.
  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol.
  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting.
  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive.
  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites.
Not an exhaustive list, but everything I could remember off the top of my head.

Edit: fixing a poorly worded sentence.
 
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A.Romero

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You are being dishonest again.

These are the one’s I’ve seen. I do not agree with all of these and haven’t looked closely at many of them:
  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive.
  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian.
  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain.
  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance.
  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently.
  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered.
  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.
  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men.
  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets.
  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina.
  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol.
  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering.
  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction.
  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart.
  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male.
  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men.
  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol.
  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting.
  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive.
  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites.
Not an exhaustive list, but everything I could remember off the top of my head.

Edit: fixing a poorly worded sentence.


Thanks for the write up. I did see stuff like that on several threads but I thought it could be considered more like an expression of an agenda and not the agenda itself.

I guess you could summarize it by stating that it is pushing extreme left wing values onto society through the games?

Edit: If that's the issue should we complain about Call of Duty pushing for racism against Russians or whatever?

Obviously game creators have ideologies and a lot of times they will express them through their creations. I'd see it as reading a book that proposes different ideas to what the reader believes. Would that make a book worse than if the ideology was aligned to what the reader thinks? I think that would be boring.

For example I played Hatred and enjoyed it for what it is but I'm not in favor of senseless violence and hate.
 
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Woggleman

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I am not even some extreme feminist and I am quick to call out the anti-male crowd but this knee jerk reaction to anything that shows strong and capable women is not it either. In this kind of world any women that survive will be tough. Look at any low income and crime ridden kind of area and the women are not shrieking violets and neither are women in this world where danger is around every corner. Trust me I would rather deal with a woman like Abby than deal with the shrieking violet. The latter are the ones who will run to HR if you look at them the wrong way.
 

sol_bad

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You are being dishonest again.

These are the one’s I’ve seen. I do not agree with all of these and haven’t looked closely at many of them:
  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive.
  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian.
  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain.
  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance.
  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently.
  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered.
  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.
  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men.
  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets.
  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina.
  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol.
  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering.
  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction.
  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart.
  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male.
  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men.
  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol.
  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting.
  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive.
  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites.
Not an exhaustive list, but everything I could remember off the top of my head.

Edit: fixing a poorly worded sentence.

  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive. Funny how people are happy to point out that Abby is too muscular for an apocalypse but at the same time think that women should look gorgeous, glamorous and sexy during an apocalypse....
  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian. What does this have to do with the game?
  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain. So it's OK for men to be highly muscular but not women during this apocalypse? You saw the WLF's base right and how stocked it was? And you do remember that they had full control of a hospital and it's supplies right? AND Abby has a massive gym she can go to.
  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance. About the only "woke" thing in the game.
  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently. Not sure what this has to do with being woke. Words always disappear and reappear from common usage and have various contexts.
  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered. Men and women are treated the same in the games world.
  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.
    You mean like Mel and Yara? They definitely survived right?
  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men. What does this even mean? It's well known that women are way more emotional than men and that their emotions take control of them.
  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets. Neil probably picked everyone for their roles. If you read and listen to interviews, Lev's character seemed to have been set up, as in she/he was not wanting to be a part of the crazy cult. For whatever reason, whether it's just her not wanting to be married to a creepy pedo guy or because she identifies as male doesn't change much. It's something you or other people simply don't like, it's not about being "unnecessary".
  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina. I don't even know what to say to this........ Jessie and Dina obviously loved each other and neither of them knew she was pregnant at first. This scenario happens to thousands of people around the world.
  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol. Simply not true, this has been said a million times. They were traveling from one base to another base, within WLF territory. They were unexpectedly ambushed. Why was Mel traveling? Because she has a skill set that is not very common in their world and she was needed.
  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering. Yeah, but why should the man have the final say? Why can't Mel decide what to do? It's her body. What's so woke about a woman doing what she wants to do? Should we be stuck in the 60's where men control everything?
  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction. The WLF seem to be going pretty darn well to me and are no where near extinct.
  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart. Maria was in charge in the last game.
    So Ellie and Dina's relationship didn't fall apart and was perfect?
  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male. So?
  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men. Game isn't meant to be real, the infected aren't a realistic thing so why does the game need to be realistic when it comes to female/male fights?
  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol. And?
  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting. Are you saying America isn't diverse? Or are you saying you live in a predominantly singe race area? I live in Australia, my mum lives in an area that is predominantly white. I live in an area where it's like, "spot the white person" because it's so diverse. What does this "unrealistically diverse" saying even mean? Are you saying that the game should be predominantly white because white people have better survival skills?
  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive. Rumours? .... Not facts?
  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites. You realise that Tess and Maria are the leaders in the first game and make all the decisions? Why should men now be the leaders all of a sudden?
 
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  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive. Funny how people are happy to point out that Abby is too muscular for an apocalypse but at the same time think that women should look gorgeous, glamorous and sexy during an apocalypse....
  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian. What does this have to do with the game?
  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain. So it's OK for men to be highly muscular but not women during this apocalypse? You saw the WLF's base right and how stocked it was? And you do remember that they had full control of a hospital and it's supplies right? AND Abby has a massive gym she can go to.
  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance. About the only "woke" thing in the game.
  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently. Not sure what this has to do with being woke. Words always disappear and reappear from common usage and have various contexts.
  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered. Men and women are treated the same in the games world.
  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.
    You mean like Mel and Yara? They definitely survived right?
  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men. What does this even mean? It's well known that women are way more emotional than men and that their emotions take control of them.
  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets. Neil probably picked everyone for their roles. If you read and listen to interviews, Lev's character seemed to have been set up, as in she/he was not wanting to be a part of the crazy cult. For whatever reason, whether it's just her not wanting to be married to a creepy pedo guy or because she identifies as male doesn't change much. It's something you or other people simply don't like, it's not about being "unnecessary".
  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina. I don't even know what to say to this........ Jessie and Dina obviously loved each other and neither of them knew she was pregnant at first. This scenario happens to thousands of people around the world.
  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol. Simply not true, this has been said a million times. They were traveling from one base to another base, within WLF territory. They were unexpectedly ambushed. Why was Mel traveling? Because she has a skill set that is not very common in their world and she was needed.
  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering. Yeah, but why should the man have the final say? Why can't Mel decide what to do? It's her body. What's so woke about a woman doing what she wants to do? Should we be stuck in the 60's where men control everything?
  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction. The WLF seem to be going pretty darn well to me and are no where near extinct.
  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart. Maria was in charge in the last game.
    So Ellie and Dina's relationship didn't fall apart and was perfect?
  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male. So?
  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men. Game isn't meant to be real, the infected aren't a realistic thing so why does the game need to be realistic when it comes to female/male fights?
  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol. And?
  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting. Are you saying America isn't diverse? Or are you saying you live in a predominantly singe race area? I live in Australia, my mum lives in an area that is predominantly white. I live in an area where it's like, "spot the white person" because it's so diverse. What does this "unrealistically diverse" saying even mean? Are you saying that the game should be predominantly white because white people have better survival skills?
  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive. Rumours? .... Not facts?
  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites. You realise that Tess and Maria are the leaders in the first game and make all the decisions? Why should men now be the leaders all of a sudden?

I do not agree with all of these and haven’t looked closely at many of them
 
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Freeman

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  • Neil gave a talk wherein he announced he has an agenda, looked to Anita Sarkeesian for inspiration, and criticized female characters for being attractive eye candy instead of characters. His examples were Quiet, Cortana, and I think Ayane from Dead or Alive.

    Just because Anita Sarkeesian is a con artist doesn't mean that games can't try to improve on certain things. Cortana and Quiter are cringe.

  • Neil presented an award to Anita Sarkeesian.

    Is Neil Drukkman on trial for being a leftist? A lot of people fall for her bs.

  • Abby is unrealistically muscular for the post-apocalypse. She is also a female, which would require either testosterone or steroids, and an enormous amount of work to attain.

    Yes so what? When was that ever a problem in games?

  • Ellie uses bigot to describe Seth, a white man, because he called Dina a “mouthy dyke” when she kissed Ellie at the dance.

    It's a little forced that Ellie would use that term in post-apocalyptic 2038 but people that have a problem with gays do exists, it would be odd if Ellie never encountered them. The guy even tries to make up for it, they don't portrait him as irredeemable.

  • ”Bigot sandwiches” line. Bigot is an old word that was nearly dead and didn’t enter back into common usage until recently.

    Better than Jill Sandwiche.

  • The men are emasculated, cast aside, or murdered.

    Interesting that you wouldn't have a problem if it was the other way around... yes the two main characters are female and pretty much everyone dies, including a bunch of other females, one is tortured to death and a pregnant woman is slaughtered.

  • The cast is dominated by females and they seem to have plot armor.

    Come on. Really? Seems like we are getting at the core issue here.

  • This type of revenge/vengeance story is usually told with men because it makes more sense with men.

    Lmao.

  • Lev being trans is completely unnecessary to the story. Neil also hand-picked the actor who plays Lev. This actor has made numerous racist tweets.

    Barely a thing in the story and is actually used well. I don't care about some actor I don't know.

  • Jesse is used as a sperm donor to make a baby for Ellie and Dina.

    Jesse fucks.

  • Pregnant women on active military duty and on patrol.

    This in fact made no sense. She also was able to lift her pregnant weight while claiming around.

  • When asked if Owen was ok with her going on active patrol because she’s pregnant, Mel says “Why would it be up to Owen?”. It’s his child as well she is endangering.

    She is a character and that's her opinion.

  • When Jesse finds out Dina is pregnant he asks Ellie if she is going to keep it, as though abortion is normal and approved of when humanity is supposedly on the edge of extinction.

    Well, liberals survived the apocalypse too.

  • Maria runs the town, not in partnership with Tommy. She insults him and they later split up. There are no heterosexual relationships in the game that aren’t in ruins or falling apart.

    Tommy likes to go on patrols with his bro, sniping infected, living the life.

  • The WLF that run into Joel is 50/50 female to male.

    That's Abby crew. Why does this bother you?

  • The idea that “string-bean” Ellie can overpower full-grown men.

    Lmao. It was realistic for Joel to do it? You have no self awereness.

  • The Seraphite symbol is similar to the Jesus fish symbol.

    So? They are a religious group.

  • The game is unrealistically diverse for its setting.

    Is that so? Not enough white people?

  • Rumors that they intentionally made the women unattractive.

    Why is that a problem? If you wanna jerk off go to pornhub or play some weebo game.

  • Maria leads Jackson, Abby leads in the WLF (Isaac’s top Scar killer), Emily leads in the Seraphites.

    Isaac is a women now? Abby doesn't lead shit.
Not an exhaustive list, but everything I could remember off the top of my head.

Edit: fixing a poorly worded sentence.
 
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Umbral

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He asked for people’s complaints about an agenda. I listed what I have heard. Second sentence of my post. I even bolded it. You’re arguing with a ghost.

I reiterate:

I do not agree with all of these and haven’t looked closely at many of them.
 
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