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Opinion Spoilers Game Dev Naughty Dog On The Last Of Us Part II’s Controversy, Characters, And Ending

sol_bad

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It's a bad thing since it's tokenism, superficial and doesn't mean anything. You can have a rainbow of colors in any environment, but if everyone is an NPC that parrots the same approved thoughts, how is that diversity? It resembles facism a hell of a lot more, except with a rainbow flag because that's the right side of history or something stupid like that.

So having a 100% white cast is white tokenism?
 

farmerboy

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And if I am not mistaken then Naughty Dog also cut a lot from the game (I think in one interview it is being mentioned that the last part in Santa Barbara was supposed to be a lot longer).

I can appreciate that the length of the game can help convey the sheer commitment one would need to go through with travelling across such a long distance.
 
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REE Machine

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Year 2020, when people casually get death threats over silly stuff like paella recipies for years, except this time we have much more people in deep stress, who would have imagined that...
And I have yet to figure how a voice actor managed to get into hotspot.




I liked playing as Neil, who actually had his own agenda and made his own decisions.
I think you mean Joel and you deff forgot the first game. Joel in the beginning didnt do the drop with Tess because he was depressed, her being a woman handled it her self. When it comes to them taking Ellie it was Tess's idea because she wanted the guns back that Robert gave them, Joel wanted no part of it at all. Then when Tess was about to die she made Joel promise he would continue to take her, and I quote he says to her "that was your crusade not mine"
Joel didnt make any of his own decisions other than at the end when he saved Ellie. The whole games plot was because of Tess.
 

DForce

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It is not badly written because favorite character died. IT is badly written because how it was done and how game forces you to like someone you clearly hate and RELIES with rest of the plot that you should like that someone after some time.

Look at how Final Fantasy 7 and 15 handle same exact thing.

In FF7 you spend shitload of time with Aeris, you bond and at some point character dies.
In FF15 you never interact with Lunafreya other than short shitty memory flashback, you arrive in city, you never talk to her in person and then she dies. Literally first time MC in game talks to her is when she is dying and even then they don't talk. Adding salt to injury after she dies she is literally buried without MC involvement. Then you continue game. After about 20 hours you arrive at her home and then game remembers that maybe you should probably care about Luna and gives you backstory to what happened and artistic CGI which at that point makes as much sense as

This is the difference between shitty and good writing.


Your Final Fantasy comparison makes no sense.

In Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 15, we almost know nothing about these two characters in the beginning, so they needed to establish these two character's stories before killing them off. Aerith's death had a bigger impact because we've spend more time with her and she had a close relationship with cloud.

The Last of Us Part II is a sequel. We already know Joel's character and what he meant to Ellie. It's not the first game of the franchise.

If Abby killed Dina, would we really be as motivated to hunt down this killer just like she killed Joel? Absolutely not. The writers wanted to make you feel upset, and they established this by killed off a beloved character.


Bad writing would have us playing as Abby and Joel's actions were completely justified at the end of Part I. We wouldn't need to understand her side because there would be nothing she could to do to make her actions seem right. However, in this game, her actions as justified for Joel killing her father.
 

REE Machine

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It's always funny how the people who indulge in the "both sides are equal" fallacy, are always the people who always defend and do damage control for the woke side.

It really makes you think.



Nobody is doing that except SJW.

Neil launches a game and people criticize it's agenda. It's not the end of the world, really.



The other side is just criticizing an obvious political agenda being thrown in popular culture so suddenly, nobody says to leave things as they are, because we had diversity in videogames literally since always and nobody cared.

Or we have diversity in japanese developers, with all kind of trans, gays and whatever, and everybody is happy about them. Because again, they don't do it to propagate a political agenda.

The weird thing is how some people get so triggered because a political agenda is criticized.



It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's not going to become true.

But I guess in your desperation of trying to defend the second part, you need the first part to be the same. But sorry, it wasn't.



Where did I said that Anita was part of the production? What are you talking about? :messenger_grimmacing_

Dude, you're getting too crazy just for the sake of not allowing criticism of the political agenda of this game.
False Ive stated multiple times no matter what agenda a games focuses it on whether it be left or right, give me good gameplay and good written characters and Ill play it, funny how thats your argument though have fun with that one. I have my issues with the alphabet mafia like others but I dont restrict myself on what I play and watch because im not a sensitive baby about it

like You said people get triggered over an agenda getting criticised, on the other side people get trigger for an agenda that doesnt align with their own And they think all media should be for them when in fact it isnt. Im also fine with the criticism but you cant tell me part 2 went all woke without the same critcisms for 1 and say "nope wasnt woke at all" i want consistency, I want my flags thrown when theres an infraction and I want arguments to be consistent.
 
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sol_bad

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Interview was really good, I'm happy to suck up as much info about this game as possible. I did cringe at the part where the host brought up the whole dog killing thing though. It's just digital dogs dude.
 

Azurro

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So having a 100% white cast is white tokenism?

You are not looking at it from an open minded point of view. It's not and it's never about having 100% white or black or latino characters. Writing should be about coming up with an interesting character that makes sense in the world you are trying to build.

Whereas TLOU2, it feels that they wrote almost every character as if they were genderless and just assigned superficial diversity characteristics while checking off a checklist. This is why most of the women behave like men in that game.
 
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REE Machine

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You are not looking at it from an open minded point of view. It's not and it's never about having 100% white or black or latino characters. Writing should be about coming up with an interesting character that makes sense in the world you are trying to build.

Whereas TLOU2, it feels that they wrote almost every character as if they were a genderless freak and just assigned superficial diversity characteristics while checking off a checklist. This is why most of the women behave like men in that game.
Having strong characters doesnt mean they are genderless, Tess shot first and was strong as fuck in the first game, and Marlene was the head of the fireflies and she was a woman
 
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Azurro

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Having strong characters doesnt mean they are genderless, Tess shot first and was strong as fuck in the first game, and Marlene was the head of the fireflies and she was a woman

It's not about that, it's mannerisms, cadence, the way they speak and think. Almost all the characters in TLOU2 were written as if they were men or genderless and went about making each "diverse". I don't like it, and don't like the LGBT+ propaganda.
 

bishopcruz

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So, when Druckmann and co said they'd created a divisive story, they didn't actually mean divisive. They meant it in that pseudo-divisive "you'll give us a 10/10 and talk about it on your podcast where no one really has a divisive opinion and everyone agrees we're amazing" kinda "divisive".

Were they really unaware that they created a story in the literal sense of divisive ala "some people are going to detest this some people are going to enjoy it"? Surely they're not that out of touch. Say what you will about Rian Johnson, he at least knew and owned that he created a hand-grenade of a movie when he lobbed The Last Jedi into theaters.

If Druckman didn't expect death threats for killing Joel he is an idiot. It isn't right, but death threats for fucking SOAP OPERAS have been a thing since long before email. It is now easier than ever for some yahoo having a bad day and deciding to share it to spend 30 seconds and toss horrible shit his way. He saw what happened in the aftermath of the Last Jedi and he has the balls to say he was SHOCKED? Not preparing his staff and actors for shit that he absolutely had every reason to believe was coming would be on HIM or his HR department. The internet has been in most people's homes for over 20 years now. Social media has been a thing for over a decade. There is no excuse for that level of ignorance.

Which is why I am confident in him flat out lying about this. He knew exactly what was coming, And he was prepared to use it to fan the marketing for the game. He absolutely would not have wanted the leaks to come out. It sucks for people on the team to have that spoiled early. That being said the only reason that Joel's death was such a shock when people were calling it since the first trailer for the game, was that he went out of his way to tell people they were WRONG, and that Joel had a much bigger role. He did this to make sure the shock of his basic ass story actually hit.

The man is a known and admitted liar, so we are expected to believe him now?
 
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bishopcruz

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Honestly some things like the sex scene were sort of a letdown. I expected some disgusting hardcore porn and what I got was a mildly M rated scene.
I will be honest, I was too. It was bad because it came out of nowhere and was awkward as fuck, people built it up to be this long drawn out shit. Nah, it was just laughable in context more than anything else.
 

REE Machine

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It's not about that, it's mannerisms, cadence, the way they speak and think. Almost all the characters in TLOU2 were written as if they were men or genderless and went about making each "diverse". I don't like it, and don't like the LGBT+ propaganda.
Again strong characters does not mean they are genderless, and the way they speak etc....do you realize the climate of the world the game is in. Civilization had fallen, its either kill or be killed, thr strong survive the weak die, you cant trust anyone etc. Those types of conditions harder people. Why do you think Joel is diff person from the beginning of the first game with Sarah to the middle with Ellie. All the characters no matter what gender they are are a product of their environment.
 

Azurro

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Again strong characters does not mean they are genderless, and the way they speak etc....do you realize the climate of the world the game is in. Civilization had fallen, its either kill or be killed, thr strong survive the weak die, you cant trust anyone etc. Those types of conditions harder people. Why do you think Joel is diff person from the beginning of the first game with Sarah to the middle with Ellie. All the characters no matter what gender they are are a product of their environment.

No one is a tabula rasa, so no matter in what situation, men will act like men and women will act like women. Your explanation doesn't make sense anyway, given that despite their tragedies they live in a pretty nice place, so it's not like everyone is a savage.
 

bishopcruz

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You missed the point. It doesn't matter if it didn't stick to you or not, it's the fact that his review was bad and he clearly didn't pay attention to the story.

He can dislike the game all the wants, Neil even said people who played the first game may not like the second game, but at least he should know the story before criticizing it.
That wasn't his review? That was as he said his reaction to the leaks, and he said he would play the game and give the game credit on that, and so he did. And he thought the story was shit. Probably because the story was shit. He paid a LOT of attention to the story, Hell, Alex, the guy who liked it the best out of Joe's crew was probably the harshest ON the story because they story has so many problems on its face the fact that people don't see it would baffle me if it wasn't for the quality of the individual scenes in the game.
 

DForce

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That wasn't his review? That was as he said his reaction to the leaks, and he said he would play the game and give the game credit on that, and so he did. And he thought the story was shit. Probably because the story was shit. He paid a LOT of attention to the story, Hell, Alex, the guy who liked it the best out of Joe's crew was probably the harshest ON the story because they story has so many problems on its face the fact that people don't see it would baffle me if it wasn't for the quality of the individual scenes in the game.

He got many details about the story wrong, but somehow he "paid a lot of attention."

But he says, "no, they're plot holes" when they're really not.

If someone was actually paying attention, then no one would miss this many key details about the story. I can argue that the story is a good game. Just because you call it shit, doesn't mean you're right. It's a subjective matter, but we can argue when someone does not understand the story at all.
 
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Dontero

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not even close, which is why she's not developed nearly so well and why it really doesn't matter.

Then explain me why game keeps coming back to that point despite "it really doesn't matter". It is shitty writing pure and simple. Otherwise they wouldn't go back to that plot and try to shove CGI into your mouth that you should care about Luna.

Obviously to anyone who follows gaming it shows that they had plans for luna but developement was huge trash and they had to cut and change everything till it didn't made any sense in order to release early access game.

If Abby killed Dina, would we really be as motivated to hunt down this killer just like she killed Joel? Absolutely not. The writers wanted to make you feel upset, and they established this by killed off a beloved character.

Great and then ? What is the point in giving players ability to play with his murderer ? I am waiting for you to jump hoops and loops to explain why that gameplay part is not because they want you to care for her and her "view".
 

REE Machine

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No one is a tabula rasa, so no matter in what situation, men will act like men and women will act like women. Your explanation doesn't make sense anyway, given that despite their tragedies they live in a pretty nice place, so it's not like everyone is a savage.
Yes it does, even Ellie. Ellie was a killer and was trained for it by the military because she was a product of her environment, she took out grown men as a child in the first game. Killing people doesnt have a gender defined line nor does surviving. One does what one can in the situation they are given and born in.
 

bishopcruz

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He got many details about the story wrong, but somehow he "paid a lot of attention."

But he says, "no, they're plot holes" when they're really not.

If someone was actually paying attention, then no one would miss this many key details about the story. I can argue that the story is a good game. Just because you call it shit, doesn't mean you're right. It's a subjective matter, but we can argue when someone does not understand the story at all.
That video you put up WAS NOT HIS REVIEW!

Not saying he got everything right, but he had a better grasp of the story than any of the stans I have seen defending the game. So there is that too. Also kind of surprising when you think about it, because the story isn't actually that complex, or complex at all, really.
 

DForce

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Great and then ? What is the point in giving players ability to play with his murderer ? I am waiting for you to jump hoops and loops to explain why that gameplay part is not because they want you to care for her and her "view".

I already explained it. You're playing as her to understand her side of the story.

This was their goal from the start.


Totally. In my experience, people are all across the board, which is so fascinating. There are people who think Joel was an inherently good person, and yet hate Abby. You can look at what both of them have done, and their sins are fairly similar. Their redemption arcs are fairly similar. Why is one more valuable to you than the other?

Any way you feel about Abby is super-valid. We wanted to create a complex character, one who wasn’t inherently — it wasn’t about whether or not you loved her. It was about whether or not you understood her. That was our goal.

In story telling, you don't have to like the good guy and hate the bad guy. I can watch a story about a killer and not care about him, but I can be entertained enough to understand his story and find it intriguing.
 

DForce

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That video you put up WAS NOT HIS REVIEW!

Not saying he got everything right, but he had a better grasp of the story than any of the stans I have seen defending the game. So there is that too. Also kind of surprising when you think about it, because the story isn't actually that complex, or complex at all, really.

Take the time to read my post.

The video I posted was about Angry Joe talking about FAKE leaks. That was the entire purpose of me posting that video.

I THEN talked about his review and how he got many things wrong about the story. This is DIFFERENT from his spoiler (fake spoilers) discussion video.

He got things wrong in it and there's no excuse for it because just wasn't following the story from someone who claims to "know" what happened.

Also kind of surprising when you think about it, because the story isn't actually that complex, or complex at all, really.

It's not.

It also shouldn't be hard to miss something so simple, which he did.
 
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Then explain me why game keeps coming back to that point despite "it really doesn't matter". It is shitty writing pure and simple. Otherwise they wouldn't go back to that plot and try to shove CGI into your mouth that you should care about Luna.

The focus of that game is Noctis and his buddies bonding over a trip that is undertaken basically out of duty alone. Luna is just part of that duty, that destiny. She's more a symbol than a talisman, an element in a heroes journey like Guinevere is to King Arthur and his knights.

Aerith on the other hand is an active participant critical to FFVII's story.

Obviously to anyone who follows gaming it shows that they had plans for luna but developement was huge trash and they had to cut and change everything till it didn't made any sense in order to release early access game.

Yes, the entire story was rewritten when Versus XIII got scrapped. But you can't fairly judge the end result based on something that never actually existed as finished work.

Once again, you are claiming "bad writing" while talking about completely different issues. This is not a semantic trick, you are literally talking apples and oranges which scuppers your argument.

What you have succeeded in though is demonstrating how some fans are unable to get past the ideas they have about certain properties/characters in their heads, and react badly when the actual product goes in a different creative direction.

On topic: Some fans just weren't ready for TLOU2 be anything other than another road trip with Ellie and Joel, same as some fans couldn't handle Versus XIII's Luna being downgraded to a part of lesser significance in FFXV.
 

llien

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I think you mean Joel and you deff forgot the first game. Joel in the beginning didnt do the drop with Tess because he was depressed, her being a woman handled it her self. When it comes to them taking Ellie it was Tess's idea because she wanted the guns back that Robert gave them, Joel wanted no part of it at all. Then when Tess was about to die she made Joel promise he would continue to take her, and I quote he says to her "that was your crusade not mine"
Joel didnt make any of his own decisions other than at the end when he saved Ellie. The whole games plot was because of Tess.

Yes and I mean Joel. For me the game was:
1) Very brief "we gotta have it run by women, cause woke" in the beginning
2) Enjoyable loong part with Joel on his own, with periodical dialogs with annoying "strong girl" (cause woke)
3) Some OK action with the girl
4) An independent and short "Ellie and her POC friend" episode which I didn't particularly like and was annoyed at times

Oh, and I disagreed with Joel's choice, I"d let fireflies have the annoying girl for the sake of humanity.

TLOU2 effectively kills the most enjoyable part, adds big nosed lady as by side char and another lady, which looks like Bartosh from "Dark" as the main character.

It's just my personal taste of course, but for me, TLOU without Joel is like Uncharted without Drake. I didn't bother with "Lost Legacy" despite it being not even remotely as controversial as TLOU2 and even praised over UC4.

That being said, nothing against people who truly enjoy TLOU2, assuming they exist.
 
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REE Machine

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Yes and I mean Joel. For me the game was:
1) Very brief "we gotta have it run by women, cause woke" in the beginning
2) Enjoyable loong part with Joel on his own, with periodical dialogs with annoying "strong girl" (cause woke)
3) Some OK action with the girl
4) An independent and short "Ellie and her POC friend" episode which I didn't particularly like and was annoyed at times

Oh, and I disagreed with Joel's choice, I"d let fireflies have the annoying girl for the sake of humanity.

TLOU2 effectively kills the most enjoyable part, adds big nosed lady as by side char and another lady, which looks like Bartosh from "Dark" as the main character.

It's just my personal taste of course, but for me, TLOU without Joel is like Uncharted without Drake. I didn't bother with "Lost Legacy" despite it being not even remotely as controversial as TLOU2 and even praised over UC4.

That being said, nothing against people who truly enjoy TLOU2, assuming they exist.
Ill agree on one thing that joel is selfishly motivated and he is the reason why the world is still in a rut and he is the reason for his own fall
 

Woggleman

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Badly written is a matter of opinion but it does not have an SJW agenda. It simply has a gay woman as the main protagonist. If that is considered an agenda then we have not progressed as far as we should as a society.
 

Strategize

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Take the time to read my post.

The video I posted was about Angry Joe talking about FAKE leaks. That was the entire purpose of me posting that video.

I THEN talked about his review and how he got many things wrong about the story. This is DIFFERENT from his spoiler (fake spoilers) discussion video.

He got things wrong in it and there's no excuse for it because just wasn't following the story from someone who claims to "know" what happened.



It's not.

It also shouldn't be hard to miss something so simple, which he did.
Yeah I thought Joe's review was a disaster to be honest. Every 2mins he was misunderstanding plot details or character motivation. Worse his streams made him come across like a bit of a manchild.

YongYea's negative review was far more fair despite me not agreeing with alot of it.
 
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sol_bad

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Again strong characters does not mean they are genderless, and the way they speak etc....do you realize the climate of the world the game is in. Civilization had fallen, its either kill or be killed, thr strong survive the weak die, you cant trust anyone etc. Those types of conditions harder people. Why do you think Joel is diff person from the beginning of the first game with Sarah to the middle with Ellie. All the characters no matter what gender they are are a product of their environment.

There is no point, his brain is trapped in the early 1900s where men and women actually did act differently. I don't think he has mingled in the real world for a long time.

My sister is very strong and won't cop shit from anyone at all and she makes a lot of choices in her relationships. Azurro would hate her because she doesn't ..... act like a woman.
 

Azurro

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There is no point, his brain is trapped in the early 1900s where men and women actually did act differently. I don't think he has mingled in the real world for a long time.

My sister is very strong and won't cop shit from anyone at all and she makes a lot of choices in her relationships. Azurro would hate her because she doesn't ..... act like a woman.

I've lived in multiple countries and visited many, many cities, men and women act differently and tend to like different things, I don't know in what world you live.

Honestly, if I can give you some advice: man, you really need to step back and stop taking all of this less personally. I know you defend the game due to some personal situation, but that doesn't make valid points, or reality for that matter, go away.
 

REE Machine

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There is no point, his brain is trapped in the early 1900s where men and women actually did act differently. I don't think he has mingled in the real world for a long time.

My sister is very strong and won't cop shit from anyone at all and she makes a lot of choices in her relationships. Azurro would hate her because she doesn't ..... act like a woman.
Man you wana see a strong woman, date a black woman for a week and se what happens. She wont put up with any shit bruh lol
 
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sol_bad

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I've lived in multiple countries and visited many, many cities, men and women act differently and tend to like different things, I don't know in what world you live.

Honestly, if I can give you some advice: man, you really need to step back and stop taking all of this less personally. I know you defend the game due to some personal situation, but that doesn't make valid points, or reality for that matter, go away.

If you know that women in real life all act differently than I have absolutely no idea what you are rambling on about how the women don't act like women in TLOU2.
lol
 
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Umbral

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I can accept that some people did not like the story but for the millionth time gays and strong women is not an agenda. If people think it is that is their problem. Media in general should not just showcase one group because some people will accuse them of having an agenda if any others are given the spotlight.
He literally said he has an agenda. Your agenda appears to be denying reality. You can not mind it, you can encourage it, you can ignore it, but it’s there and it’s intentional.
 
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Azurro

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If you know that women in real life all act differently than I have absolutely no idea what you are rambling on about how the women don't act like women in TLOU2.
lol

You might want to reread my sentence. Men and women always act differently from each other and tend to have different interests. It's interesting how you go immediately with "strong woman = acting like a man". I never said a woman has to be meek, but the genders do behave in different manners and tend to approach conflict in different ways.

I'm sorry that reality doesn't conform to your agenda. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Keihart

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What makes no sense ? Game literally asks you to care about other party BY PLAYING that party. If developers didn't have in mind that, then you would only play Ellie all the time. You are supposed to care about the other party.

Moreover plot doesn't work because it assumes you care about other party. There is no point at which i rooted for Abby.

It is as badly written as Final Fantasy 15 Lunafreya vs Noctis story. Moreover developers confirm you should care about her death because after that death literally 20-30 hours later you stop at her homeland there goes long CGI as some sort of homage to her as if player cares. At that point i howled laughing how games is badly written.
Empathy vs Sympathy, not the same shit and even Neils talk about understanding the character and not liking them.
You can understand someone and even then condemn their actions.
Abby is depicted as selfish and narrow minded in her side of the story, her only redeemable moment it's saving Lev and letting go of Ellie because of Lev.
 

sol_bad

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You might want to reread my sentence. Men and women always act differently from each other and tend to have different interests. It's interesting how you go immediately with "strong woman = acting like a man". I never said a woman has to be meek, but the genders do behave in different manners and tend to approach conflict in different ways.

I'm sorry that reality doesn't conform to your agenda. 🤷‍♂️

Please explain how the men and women in TLOU2 should be acting.
 

Keihart

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oof, all those strong females ...i guess that the agenda was stronger in the 90's and japanese media. Yikes
People see the boogie man were they want to.
 

bishopcruz

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Empathy vs Sympathy, not the same shit and even Neils talk about understanding the character and not liking them.
You can understand someone and even then condemn their actions.
Abby is depicted as selfish and narrow minded in her side of the story, her only redeemable moment it's saving Lev and letting go of Ellie because of Lev.
Eh, I am fairly certain that most people understand Abby, the problem is that a large part of the audience just doesn't care much about her. It takes all of one flashback to understand her, and then we get 10 more hours with her. Druckman wanted her to be an interesting character, and the entire game HINGES on that happening.wihout it there is no emotional impact at all for over half of the game. That is where the game fails.
 
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Keihart

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Eh, I am fairly certain that most people understand Abby, the problem is that a large part of the audience just doesn't care much about her. It takes all of one flashback to understand her, and then we get 10 more hours with her. Druckman wanted her to be an interesting character, and the entire game HINGES on that happening.wihout it there is no emotional impact at all for over half of the game. That is where the game fails.
i'll agree with that, it doesn't land for everyone as an interesting character.
I personally think that the doctor being Abby's father should of being concealed for as much as possible, it would need some serious reworking of some scenarios, but at least you would be more intrigued in why Abby is doing what she is doing and paying more attention.
 
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bishopcruz

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i'll agree with that, it doesn't land for everyone as an interesting character.
I personally think that the doctor being Abby's father should of being concealed for as much as possible, it would need some serious reworking of some scenarios, but at least you would be more intrigued in why Abby is doing what she is doing and paying more attention.
Problem is her dad is a gigantic piece of shit, so I have negative empathy over his death.
 

Keihart

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No, Empathy is the ability to understand someone's emotions as if they were your own.. Dude is such a piece of shit I think Abby should thank Joel for getting rid of him.
yeah, i guess you are only forced to empathize with Abby although, empathy it's not limited to emotions but just being able to put yourself in someone elses place.
For example, when you understand that if someone closes their eyes they can't see you, that's empathy. Kids at certain age don't have even that.
You don't need to agree or feel sympathy for their actions, just the perspective.

People that investigate serial killers, would hardly sympathize with them but they sure need to empathize to catch them.
 
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bishopcruz

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yeah, i guess you are only forced to empathize with Abby although, empathy it's not limited to emotions but just being able to put yourself in someone elses place.
For example, when you understand that if someone closes their eyes they can't see you, that's empathy. Kids at certain age don't have even that.
You don't need to agree or feel sympathy for their actions, just the perspective.

People that investigate serial killers, would hardly sympathize with them but they sure need to empathize to catch them.
It's a joke, you got that right? Look I understand Abby, I get why she would want Joel dead, she's just a shitty and boring character with next to no redeemable qualities and not someone I want to spend time with. She's like the anti Jamie Lannister.
 
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Mike O'caine

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Jun 13, 2019
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I dont know why people are acting like we dont live in the age of controversy based marketing.

Literally millions of dollars in free press because of people going out of their way to Express disgust at the game with a similar rate of response from fans.

The fact that the people behind the game arent just sitting back and letting it speak for itself but rather playing into the fighting by doing interviews and posting constantly on social media is proof that this is a work.

It's a videogame and people are invested in it politically as if it's a person that they know to the point where theyll spend hours typing long "think pieces" and video essays about it. It's extremely cringy and one of the reasons people make fun of game enthusiasts.
 

leo-j

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Jun 27, 2018
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Not everyone who hates the game is white. Funny how people like you are always like "hurr durr if you don't like the game you're a bigot", and then immediately after make a broad generalization of an entire race. Real good example you're setting there.

Anyway, the fact that you (and others like you) are still defending the story with bullshit like this says it all. It's literally The Last Jedi all over again, and just like TLJ, you know that people who love it either simply don't understand what's wrong (bless them) or don't have the capacity to understand what's wrong (again, bless them). So they lash out with "omg you're just a sexist" or whatever other garbage they can conjure to support their point. It's absolutely pathetic.

when half or more of the lashings are transphobic, homophobic, bigot ass attacks you can make a pretty ACCURATE arguement for my statement. It’s not that hard to see that buddy, stop ignoring reality that’s in front of you. It’s there, whether you wanna ignore it is on you, some of us have the “capacity” to see what’s in front of us.
 
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tassletine

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Oct 24, 2007
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I really wasn’t bothered by the few forced woke moments in the game, it didn’t detract from the experience for me. If anything I appreciated that female empowerment didn’t take the form of all the male characters being morons or uncontrollable and violent. They all get killed, but I consider it a small victory. Having played through it finally I guess I’m not seeing what all the hubbub is about, really good game imo. And I didn’t love the first one, I think it had a much better story. This one has much better gameplay though, so I’m good.
I think the hubbub has far more to do with the pacing of the story and intolerance for long cutscenes than any actual agenda. If the gameplay wasn’t broken up so much and so drawn out people wouldn’t care.
Except Naughty Dog who would probably just scream ‘bigot’ because that’s the story they’ve lined up for the media to exploit. The actual game is fine, but people can smell their publicity bullshit a mile off.
It’s deeply cynical, especially in regards to the stories of ND overworking their employees — which is something that I wouldn’t normally care about — but the game is so needlessly drawn out, that overworking your employees that much for so little gain just seems like deliberate sadism.
 
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tassletine

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At around 31:00 forward is the interesting part most people probably want to hear. The rumors/leaks and how misinformation spread and turned it into a "cultural war". Naughty Dog's perspective and how they were prepared to have people dislike some elements of the game (in the same sense as the ending of the first The Last of Us), but never imagined people going as far as death threats to the developers and voice actors.

Also interesting about some technical and mechanical features they are talking about that never meant it into the game. Like Ellie having a dog and using it during gameplay.

Looks like in the porch scene Ellie was supposed to hug Joel but Ashley Johnson thought it wasn't a good and Ellie wasn't ready to hug Joel. I think that was a good decision and Ashley was right on the money with that one being better (the one we have in the game now) than a hug.
They were prepared for death threats. What a lot of people don't know is that you get a lot of death threats if you are a figurehead in public life. This has always been the case and those threats almost never amount to anything. If you deliberately go out of your way to provoke like Druckman did then you should expect them, and he would have been warned about this by ND publicists.

Left wing groups use this tactic the entire time. Case in point -- Greta Thunburg.
The narrative by the left there is only "How could you attack a child"
When the actual truth is one of two things:
a) If the left are telling the truth, then it means that they are completely ignorant of how people act and react to situations. (ie they are stupid).
b) The left threw a child in front of the media to get that reaction. (ie: they used her to their advantage knowing full well this was going to happen)

Neil falls into category b).
ND can keep up the narrative as long as they can continue the argument and get the reaction they provoked. But sticking your hand in a lion's mouth and getting bitten isn't exactly a point. It's dumb as hell.
UNLESS you are using it to get publicity -- which is what they are doing here.
Druckman's tactic, and he has said as much, is to cause as much commotion as possible. He's from Israel remember, compared to daily bombings he lived through there, this would mean almost nothing to him.