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Opinion Spoilers Game Dev Naughty Dog On The Last Of Us Part II’s Controversy, Characters, And Ending

REE Machine

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Side character that his gender had nothing to do with the story, neither was used to virtue signal.



Ironically, Tess is probably the most sexy character of this universe.

In the second part we have She Hulk, Noselina and pregnantlina.

And the fat ugly asian who had a PSP.



That's mostly true. Again, nobody says Cuckmann didn't have his fetishes being in development, but comparing the first game with the second just doesn't hold up.

He also made Nadine and Nathan's daughter in Uncharted 4, but that doesn't mean the game was retardedly woke. Cuckmann didn't start all crazy with the political agenda, he has being progressively "radicalized" through the years and the culmination so far is TLOU2. His political agenda is now starting to get really bad.

He has literally said that diversity is as important as the gameplay, the graphics or the story. And that's something he realized after making Uncharted 4.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/uncharted-dev-says-character-diversity-just-as-imp/1100-6441800/

It's like watching the evolution of a super villain. It doesn't start as bad, but it gets progressively worse with time.
1. Still a gay character in a main role that helps you, also we find out ellie is gay through dlc which is still connected to the game

2. Tess being the sexiest character in tlou universe is not speaking volumes at all honestly, all women are fugly in it

3. it was his lead concept artist that pitched to him about Nate having a daughter instead, he went on record and said this and he said sure why not.

4. diversity is also important because it also brings about different perspectives you may not see or acknowledge without said diversity in the game. The fact people moan about this is jarring.
 

Jon Neu

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3. it was his lead concept artist that pitched to him about Nate having a daughter instead, he went on record and said this and he said sure why not.

He has all this people working for him pushing him to be more progressive and woke because he wants them to do so.

4. diversity is also important because it also brings about different perspectives you may not see or acknowledge without said diversity in the game. The fact people moan about this is jarring.

There's literally zero real diversity in the game, is all just empty tokenism for virtue signalling reasons.

And that's the problem with the woke cult, they claim to be about diversity but in reality their notion of diversity it's an incredibly constricted set of cliches and tokenisms based on the most Surface level idea of what means to be different.

Claiming that diversity is as important as gameplay, story or graphics already tells you the artificial political value they give to it. And also how detrimental diversity™ is for game development, because if they didn't spend so much time thinking how to portray trans characters, maybe they could have wrote a less lazy script.
 
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REE Machine

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He has all this people working for him pushing him to be more progressive and woke because he wants them to do so.



There's literally zero real diversity in the game, is all just empty tokenism for virtue signalling reasons.

And that's the problem with the woke cult, they claim to be about diversity but in reality their notion of diversity it's an incredibly constricted set of cliches and tokenisms based on the most Surface level idea of what means to be different.

Claiming that diversity is as important as gameplay, story or graphics already tells you the artificial political value they give to it. And also how detrimental diversity™ is for game development, because if they didn't spend so much time thinking how to portray trans characters, maybe they could have wrote a less lazy script.
Im not going to censor a developer and tell them what to do with their creation. The fact that both sides are moronic is jarring because they are different sides to the same coin. One sides wants different perspectives and diversity in games when it comes to the look and stories they tell and the other side wants to leave things the way they are which may eventually become stagnate. In the end its the developers story and ideas not mine, whether you chose to accept them or not is up to you, but you cant shout that tlou 1 isnt political compared to part 2 which it is. They are running the same bests but in a different way, esp to both crowd which are ultra sensitive about everything these days, esp lies like how you spread where anita was part of the production of this game and worked on it which is also indeed false.
 

brian0057

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It's neat that Neil was fond of the idea of death being unexpected because that's how it is in real life. But here is the problem:

"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
- Tom Clancy.

Also, the game has the narrative subtlety of a sledgehammer to the cranium so there's that.

Maybe the show will be better now that all that pesky gameplay and video game BS is out the window.
 

The Alien

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“I have an agenda” - Neil Druckmann.
He knew exactly what the fuck he was doing. The game reeks of agenda. Of course, people who send death threats are scum but it doesn’t change the fact that the game is inherently divisive due to its glaring and -in my opinion- disgusting agenda.
I agree.

Instead of quelling the storm, I feel Druckmann intentionally antagonized a hornet's nest. Afterward, he played the victim card to be "so stunning and brave" while ending up on "the right side of history".
 

Joshmyersbv

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Im confused, Neil talks about YouTubers spreading false spoilers about the story but everything I read when the story leaked ended up being true. I remember after the leaks hit in interviews before the game released he kept saying that context matters when it involved the story. I watch that game from beginning to end and in no way did the context of the plot change my opinion on how shitty that story was.
 
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llien

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never imagined people going as far as death threats to the developers and voice actors.

Year 2020, when people casually get death threats over silly stuff like paella recipies for years, except this time we have much more people in deep stress, who would have imagined that...
And I have yet to figure how a voice actor managed to get into hotspot.



go play the first game again, lol people out on their own lens thinking "well the first game isnt political because you play as a man"
I liked playing as Neil, who actually had his own agenda and made his own decisions.
 
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leo-j

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Considering 90 percent of the haters in this thread and in other TLOU threads went rampant crazy about “SJW” and “Trans” agenda or whatever. It’s crazy how the plot they hated ended up being false. And yet they still act as if it’s the reality. Some people need help. Let’s hope one day they Get out of their basements and stop being so dam 2001 with their homophobia/ white men conservative agenda, the confederacy ended.
 
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leo-j

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Im confused, Neil talks about YouTubers spreading false spoilers about the story but everything I read when the story leaked ended up being true. I remember after the leaks hit in interviews before the game released he kept saying that context matters when it involved the story. I watch that game from beginning to end and in no way did the context of the plot change my opinion on how shitty that story was.
There is no anti gay Christian cult, there is no trans character you play as to kill the anti gay Christians. The story does not revolve around any of the above.
 
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Revolutionary

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Considering 90 percent of the haters in this thread and in other TLOU threads went rampant crazy about “SJW” and “Trans” agenda or whatever. It’s crazy how the plot they hated ended up being false. And yet they still act as if it’s the reality. Some people need help. Let’s hope one day they Get out of their basements and stop being so dam 2001 with their homophobia/ white men conservative agenda, the confederacy ended.
Not everyone who hates the game is white. Funny how people like you are always like "hurr durr if you don't like the game you're a bigot", and then immediately after make a broad generalization of an entire race. Real good example you're setting there.

Anyway, the fact that you (and others like you) are still defending the story with bullshit like this says it all. It's literally The Last Jedi all over again, and just like TLJ, you know that people who love it either simply don't understand what's wrong (bless them) or don't have the capacity to understand what's wrong (again, bless them). So they lash out with "omg you're just a sexist" or whatever other garbage they can conjure to support their point. It's absolutely pathetic.
 

DForce

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Im confused, Neil talks about YouTubers spreading false spoilers about the story but everything I read when the story leaked ended up being true. I remember after the leaks hit in interviews before the game released he kept saying that context matters when it involved the story. I watch that game from beginning to end and in no way did the context of the plot change my opinion on how shitty that story was.


He's talking about two 4chan rumors that were circulating months before the game released.



You don't have to read it, but it calls the mysterious woman Ellie's mom and that turned out to be fake. That's a major sign that this is fake.


This was picked up by several websites and it was circulating across the web.



Late April, leaked footage of the game started to surface and it was followed by this 4chan leak.

There is some truth to this, but about 98% of this "plot leak" is fake.


Many people thought it was real because....

Ellie looked dead when her face was covered in blood.

You can see by people's reaction on Resetera forum, people thought this confirmed the 4chan leaks. It was like the "perfect storm" for people who wanted to find a reason to shit on this game. It wasn't until more footage started to surface that people realized that the 4chan leaks turned out to be fake.

Still, people thought it was real until the game released but the damage had already been done.


If you look at the spoiler discussion videos on YouTube before the game released, you will see people going over the fake 4chan leaks.


I'm sure Angry Joe was one of the people Neil was talking about in his video.

Starting at the 8:30 mark, Alex (?) starts going over the fake leaks.

(It's mostly fake but it contains some spoilers)


Doesn't surprise me now that Angry Joe got so many things wrong in his The Last of Us 2 Review. If he didn't understand the story, he just excused it by calling it "plot holes".

It was so bad.
 
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Amiga

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There is no anti gay Christian cult, there is no trans character you play as to kill the anti gay Christians. The story does not revolve around any of the above.

There is nothing wrong with having an agenda. Niel is more forthcoming about it so you know what to expect. on the contrary I appreciate looking through a window to a well conceived tale, but this game is no such thing. Ironically Lev is an interesting character, you could feel the inner struggle within him trying to cope with his nature and his society rejection of him. but the main arc of Ellie and Abby just doesn't work.
He's talking about two 4chan rumors that were circulating months before the game released.



You don't have to read it, but it calls the mysterious woman Ellie's mom and that turned out to be fake. That's a major sign that this is fake.


This was picked up by several websites and it was circulating across the web.



Late April, leaked footage of the game started to surface and it was followed by this 4chan leak.

There is some truth to this, but about 98% of this "plot leak" is fake.


Many people thought it was real because....

Ellie looked dead when her face was covered in blood.

You can see by people's reaction on Resetera forum, people thought this confirmed the 4chan leaks. It was like the "perfect storm" for people who wanted to find a reason to shit on this game. It wasn't until more footage started to surface that people realized that the 4chan leaks turned out to be fake.

Still, people thought it was real until the game released but the damage had already been done.


If you look at the spoiler discussion videos on YouTube before the game released, you will see people going over the fake 4chan leaks.


I'm sure Angry Joe was one of the people Neil was talking about in his video.

Starting at the 8:30 mark, Alex (?) starts going over the fake leaks.

(It's mostly fake but it contains some spoilers)


Doesn't surprise me now that Angry Joe got so many things wrong in his The Last of Us 2 Review. If he didn't understand the story, he just excused it by calling it "plot holes".

It was so bad.

I avoided the spoilers, I also avoided all previews of the game other than that first trailer. no matter how you cut it the plot doesn't stick together.

And if I was Joe I would never meet up with Niel face to face from now on..

 

DForce

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I avoided the spoilers, I also avoided all previews of the game other than that first trailer. no matter how you cut it the plot doesn't stick together.

And if I was Joe I would never meet up with Niel face to face from now on..

You missed the point. It doesn't matter if it didn't stick to you or not, it's the fact that his review was bad and he clearly didn't pay attention to the story.

He can dislike the game all the wants, Neil even said people who played the first game may not like the second game, but at least he should know the story before criticizing it.
 
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laser_printer

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“I have an agenda” - Neil Druckmann.
He knew exactly what the fuck he was doing. The game reeks of agenda. Of course, people who send death threats are scum but it doesn’t change the fact that the game is inherently divisive due to its glaring and -in my opinion- disgusting agenda.

What's the agenda exactly? I thought there was one from the REEEing but when I played it I didn't see jack shit lol
 
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Dontero

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Doesn't surprise me now that Angry Joe got so many things wrong in his The Last of Us 2 Review. If he didn't understand the story, he just excused it by calling it "plot holes".

It was so bad.

Care to explain what he got wrong ? Because it seems to me you didn't even watch his review.

Naughty Dog killed beloved character and then it forces you to play murderer party and you are supposed to care about them. IT is so fucking badly written then you can't possibly write it more badly. He even said in review that it would be 10 times better if player would first play other party, understand them and then murder Joel. Because then player would have moral choice to make. It would be struggle between characters you love like parents when they have spat.

Whole story relies on player buying that the other party are actually good people or something and that you are supposed to care about them. But the moment you kill Joel there is no longer any way for most of people to "buy" that hook. They only thing how to kill that party.

Imagine for a second that someone murders your so and then you are forced to watch that murderer life and someone expects you to like them.

TLOU2 is just badly written.

To understand better this problem. Imagine TLOU1 starts with Joel killing Fireflies and rescuing Ellie and then you play rest of the game as retrospection. It takes completely punch out of ending. That is considered bad writing. Or even worse game starts with ending where Ellie gets killed by fireflies. So you play whole game with mind that Ellie dies at the end which naturally makes it hard to bond with Ellie as player.
 
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DForce

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Care to explain what he got wrong ? Because it seems to me you didn't even watch his review.

Naughty Dog killed beloved character and then it forces you to play murderer party and you are supposed to care about them. IT is so fucking badly written then you can't possibly write it more badly. He even said in review that it would be 10 times better if player would first play other party, understand them and then murder Joel. Because then player would have moral choice to make. It would be struggle between characters you love like parents when they have spat.

Whole story relies on player buying that the other party are actually good people or something and that you are supposed to care about them. But the moment you kill Joel there is no longer any way for most of people to "buy" that hook. They only thing how to kill that party.

Imagine for a second that someone murders your so and then you are forced to watch that murderer life and someone expects you to like them.

TLOU2 is just badly written.

To understand better this problem. Imagine TLOU1 starts with Joel killing Fireflies and rescuing Ellie and then you play rest of the game as retrospection. It takes completely punch out of ending. That is considered bad writing. Or even worse game starts with ending where Ellie gets killed by fireflies. So you play whole game with mind that Ellie dies at the end which naturally makes it hard to bond with Ellie as player.


Angry Joe claims the game self references its own plot holes.

Two examples:
1. Dina asking Ellie why they let her and Tommy go.
Owen is a the reason why Tommy and Ellie were released. The entire flashbacks with Abby shows Owen wanted to Abby to move on from Joel, but she could just let go. Owen is good at heart and didn't want to see his friends or even innocent people involved in Joel's death. Abby talked about capturing innocent people from Jackson before she killed Joel and Owen didn't want to.

If Angry Joe paid attention, then he would realize that the game wants you to think Abby and her friends are bad guys, right until you play as Abby and find out Owen was the reason why Ellie and Tommy survived.

The reason why Dina asked the question was for the gamers to ask themselves the question and wonder why they let them survive.

2. Pregnant woman being allowed in the front line of combat. Here's a scene in which Mel says she should drink while pregnant.

Joe says it was bad writing that they let a pregnant woman travel and fight on the front line without realizing that Mel was only traveling with Abby and Manny to another base. This is not plot hole and it would be dumb to call it "bad writing.


Most of the time people talk about bad writing in this game makes no sense. I can make the argument that the writing is, for the most part very good..

There's no point of going back and forth because we're going to go nowhere.

The problem is that Angry Joe criticized the story and didn't understand what was going on. They even tried to reason with themselves that "Ellie sacrifice meant nothing because there's no cure for a fungible infection." That is very stupid.

These are one of many reasons why his criticism of the game made no sense. He can dislike parts of the game, but the 3 things I mentioned above are stupid.

EDIT: I would bring out a few other dumb points Angry Joe made.

He said it was a sheer coincidence that Abby found Joel. Let me explain to you how that is dumb.

1. Abby knew where Tommy was located before traveling to Jackson.
2. Joel and Tommy love to do their patrol at the ski resort (This was shown in the flashback).
3. Owen spotted people from Jackson doing patrols at the ski resort when he found the city of Jackson, which turned out to be Tommy and Joel.
4. Abby went alone to find anyone from Jackson and tracked Tommy and Joel down after finding horse tracks.

This is not a sheer coincidence. It's set up perfectly for Abby to run into Joel. There is no plot holes or bad writing that made Abby run into Joel.


Another point he made is that people are "saved" too many times in the story that made people look stupid.

What about the first game?

- Tommy saves Joel from being shot.
- Bill saved Joel from being killed by a clicker.
- Henry comes back to save Joel from drowning
- Ellie saves Joel.

Characters looking dumb
- Ellie doesn't save Joel when she's right next to him before he is impaled.
- David lets Ellie go (obviously to find Joel).
- David captures Ellie and locks her in a cage.
- Ellie is able to break free by convincing David she was bitten (but she was locked in a cage for hours) and he leaves the machete near her hand.
- David finds her again and she's kill her instantly.


This is not considered bad writing, but.
Joel saving Abby and Manny saving Abby is considered bad writing? He's inconsistent with his criticism.

I will agree that the part where Dina is shot down from the glass and he goes over to strangle her instead to shoot her was a bit stupid.
 
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sol_bad

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Naughty Dog killed beloved character and then it forces you to play murderer party and you are supposed to care about them. IT is so fucking badly written then you can't possibly write it more badly. He even said in review that it would be 10 times better if player would first play other party, understand them and then murder Joel. Because then player would have moral choice to make. It would be struggle between characters you love like parents when they have spat.

That makes no sense.

The scene plays out the way it does because you are meant to hate the fuck out of Abby for the first half of the game. You are meant to feel the way that Ellie feels. If you play and understand Abby before the murder happens that feeling of hate is completely removed. You can't say it's badly written if you don't understand the intent of the structure of the game.
Also, the games TLOU1 and TLOU2 are not about choice. People say that the player should have had choices at certain points in TLOU2 but if that's the case than you should have had a choice whether Ellie was saved or not in the first game. It's not about choice, they have a story that they want to tell.
 

AV

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Considering how much people complain about this game having agendas, it's funny to me how often these two are totally ignored.
 

PanzerAzel

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I think your trying to neglect what the first game had was and is about while claiming the second game is exploring these ideas and themes for the first time which is in fact false. The first game had a political agenda much like this one, no one cared though
Because it was well written and implemented. Not hamfisted.
 

Halo is Dead

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Neil knew what he was doing. He knew the story was going to be divisive at best even before the leaks. He tried something "bold" and a lot of people didn't like it.
 
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Man, can we please stop calling characters doing dumb shit plot holes, especially if those actions can be made to be in-character! If people being stupid is a plot hole then the number of plot holes created by people in reality should swallow us all whole.
 

Azurro

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4. diversity is also important because it also brings about different perspectives you may not see or acknowledge without said diversity in the game. The fact people moan about this is jarring.

That diversity of different perspectives comes from diversity of thought. In this game, and in the progressive agenda, diversity simply means people have more colors, some men feel like women, some viceversa and some like to put penises and vaginas in their mouths when normally they wouldn't. However they all think exactly the same. All of them and you will be expelled from the group if you disagree.

It's nothing but tokenism, that diversity you speak of doesn't exist.
 
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sol_bad

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That diversity of different perspectives comes from diversity of thought. In this game, and in the progressive agenda, diversity simply means people have more colors, some men feel like women, some viceversa and some like to put penises and vaginas in their mouths when normally they wouldn't. However they all think exactly the same. All of them and you will be expelled from the group if you disagree.

And why is this a bad thing? You have a cast that's 100% white, not everyone of them is going to be an important character.
Why does this need to change when more diversity is implemented?
 

Dontero

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That makes no sense.

stuff

What makes no sense ? Game literally asks you to care about other party BY PLAYING that party. If developers didn't have in mind that, then you would only play Ellie all the time. You are supposed to care about the other party.

Moreover plot doesn't work because it assumes you care about other party. There is no point at which i rooted for Abby.

It is as badly written as Final Fantasy 15 Lunafreya vs Noctis story. Moreover developers confirm you should care about her death because after that death literally 20-30 hours later you stop at her homeland there goes long CGI as some sort of homage to her as if player cares. At that point i howled laughing how games is badly written.
 
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"Badly written" tlou2 came out and all of sudden gamers have MAs, BAs and Phds in creative writing because their favourite character got killed off, damn, telling Neil Druckman/naughty dog how to do their job like your more qualified, foh

Stop wasting your brilliance on video game threads, go show them how its done:messenger_grinning_smiling:
 

highrider

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I think TLOU2 is not getting enough praise for the gameplay. I found it to be a gigantic step up from the first game and the gameplay has a certain weight to it that goes really well with the tone and atmosphere of overall game.
The technical team at Naughty Dog is two steps ahead and it shows. For me the enjoyable side of the gameplay is not actually moving the character around and doing something special in some fancy action style of way, but rather all those little details coming together and being immersed into the raw brutality of the gameplay.

I personally can’t think of a more impactful and entertaining 3rd person shooter. It’s really kind of ruined a lot of other games for me lol.
 
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Ellery

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I personally can’t think of a more impactful and entertaining 3rd person shooter. It’s really kind of ruined a lot of other games for me lol.

Same happened to me with the first The Last Of Us. After I finished it felt like it left a big void. Not from a gameplay perspective, but I think it was mostly due to Joel and Ellie being absolutely brilliant (and even though it doesn't need to be mentioned but Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson killed it and I think both stepped it up a notch for TLOU2 which makes the scenes Joel is in so god damn emotional that it is impossible to hold back tears even in happy scenes)
 

highrider

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What makes no sense ? Game literally asks you to care about other party BY PLAYING that party. If developers didn't have in mind that, then you would only play Ellie all the time. You are supposed to care about the other party.

Moreover plot doesn't work because it assumes you care about other party. There is no point at which i rooted for Abby.

It is as badly written as Final Fantasy 15 Lunafreya vs Noctis story. Moreover developers confirm you should care about her death because after that death literally 20-30 hours later you stop at her homeland there goes long CGI as some sort of homage to her as if player cares. At that point i howled laughing how games is badly written.

I don’t think you’re meant to rout for her, so much as understand her outlook and motives. I think that’s what the whole story is centered on. What motivates these people? Why are they doing this? That is the story, and I agree that it isn’t nearly as strong story wise as the first game. But dat gameplay tho.
 
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Jon Neu

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Im not going to censor a developer and tell them what to do with their creation. The fact that both sides are moronic is jarring because they are different sides to the same coin. One sides wants different perspectives and diversity in games when it comes to the look and stories they tell and the other side wants to leave things the way they are which may eventually become stagnate. In the end its the developers story and ideas not mine, whether you chose to accept them or not is up to you, but you cant shout that tlou 1 isnt political compared to part 2 which it is. They are running the same bests but in a different way, esp to both crowd which are ultra sensitive about everything these days, esp lies like how you spread where anita was part of the production of this game and worked on it which is also indeed false.

It's always funny how the people who indulge in the "both sides are equal" fallacy, are always the people who always defend and do damage control for the woke side.

It really makes you think.

Im not going to censor a developer and tell them what to do with their creation.

Nobody is doing that except SJW.

Neil launches a game and people criticize it's agenda. It's not the end of the world, really.

and the other side wants to leave things the way they are which may eventually become stagnate

The other side is just criticizing an obvious political agenda being thrown in popular culture so suddenly, nobody says to leave things as they are, because we had diversity in videogames literally since always and nobody cared.

Or we have diversity in japanese developers, with all kind of trans, gays and whatever, and everybody is happy about them. Because again, they don't do it to propagate a political agenda.

The weird thing is how some people get so triggered because a political agenda is criticized.

but you cant shout that tlou 1 isnt political compared to part 2 which it is

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it's not going to become true.

But I guess in your desperation of trying to defend the second part, you need the first part to be the same. But sorry, it wasn't.

esp lies like how you spread where anita was part of the production of this game and worked on it which is also indeed false.

Where did I said that Anita was part of the production? What are you talking about? :messenger_grimmacing_

Dude, you're getting too crazy just for the sake of not allowing criticism of the political agenda of this game.
 

Jon Neu

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1. Dina asking Ellie why they let her and Tommy go.
Owen is a the reason why Tommy and Ellie were released. The entire flashbacks with Abby shows Owen wanted to Abby to move on from Joel, but she could just let go. Owen is good at heart and didn't want to see his friends or even innocent people involved in Joel's death. Abby talked about capturing innocent people from Jackson before she killed Joel and Owen didn't want to.

If Angry Joe paid attention, then he would realize that the game wants you to think Abby and her friends are bad guys, right until you play as Abby and find out Owen was the reason why Ellie and Tommy survived.

The reason why Dina asked the question was for the gamers to ask themselves the question and wonder why they let them survive.

The funny thing is how Ellie responds to Dina, she literally says: maybe they are dumb.

Well, yes, they are dumb because they are only as smart as the people writing them.

Imagine being a soldier on a secret mission to kill some dude that lives in a very populated and dangerous town. Remember: you are a soldier of a paramilitary group that is ok with killing children and torturing people. Yet somehow, when you have killed the man you came to kill, you decide to let his brother and the girl that is shouting that she is going to kill you all back to their highly populated and armed town. You are going to be a father, but somehow you don't care about your security and the security of your son and his mother.

All the problems of Abby's group would have never happened if they simply killed the two strangers that are nothing to them but have seen their faces and are shouting their deaths. Literally they all get killed because of that incoherent and dumb decision.

And after Ellie kills her doggo, her lover, her pregnant woman friend and tries to actively kill her, Abby -this total psycho who tortured a man to death in front of a crying girl-, just spares her life a second time because, well, we need the plot to continue or something. 10/10 writting.

2. Pregnant woman being allowed in the front line of combat. Here's a scene in which Mel says she should drink while pregnant.

Joe says it was bad writing that they let a pregnant woman travel and fight on the front line without realizing that Mel was only traveling with Abby and Manny to another base. This is not plot hole and it would be dumb to call it "bad writing.

Most of the time people talk about bad writing in this game makes no sense. I can make the argument that the writing is, for the most part very good..

Abby literally tells Mel that she could stay if she asks for. Because even Abby knows that a pregnant woman traveling in the open is fucking stupid and dangerous, especially when that pregnant woman is your most valuable doctor.

It's dumb to not call it bad writting, because it's literally what it is.
 
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pLow7

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It's been a month and you guys still can't let it go. Still the same people arguing all over again.
 

Azurro

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And why is this a bad thing? You have a cast that's 100% white, not everyone of them is going to be an important character.
Why does this need to change when more diversity is implemented?

It's a bad thing since it's tokenism, superficial and doesn't mean anything. You can have a rainbow of colors in any environment, but if everyone is an NPC that parrots the same approved thoughts, how is that diversity? It resembles facism a hell of a lot more, except with a rainbow flag because that's the right side of history or something stupid like that.
 
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Ellery

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It's been a month and you guys still can't let it go. Still the same people arguing all over again.

It is what makes the game so damn special. I am currently replaying it for the third time and the game gives you a lot to think about, challenges you and there is always more to find and to dig deeper. On top of having extremely satisfying gameplay.
Why The Last of Us Part II still lives rent free inside the heads of those that dislike the game I can't answer, but to be fair it is quite a big game and takes people some time to finish. Probably around 25-35 hours and some folks only play 1 hour or less a day and it is great to hear from those people what they think about the game and what they felt after experiencing the game in it's entirety.
 

INCUBASE

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Just give me an option to play as joel in the abby sections, you could play as different skins in uncharted

Just do that, and I'll replay it
 
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sobaka770

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It's a bad thing since it's tokenism, superficial and doesn't mean anything. You can have a rainbow of colors in any environment, but if everyone is an NPC that parrots the same approved thoughts, how is that diversity? It resembles facism a hell of a lot more, except with a rainbow flag because that's the right side of history or something stupid like that.

Oh please, if it's a minority character doesn't greatly impact the main plot you call it "tokienism". If a minority character has a huge part of the main plot - it's "SJW agenda".
So basically any minority inclusion is a lose situation.

Why don't you just admit that you just want to go back to good old days of buff male protags saving boobs-y women. Good news: you got FFVII remake, where the great writing features an effeminate-looking overpowered brooding protag who doesn't speak much but gets several chicks to pine over him.

The inclusivity never bothered me, the mix was very tastefully done.
 
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Dontero

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"Badly written" tlou2 came out and all of sudden gamers have MAs, BAs and Phds in creative writing because their favourite character got killed off, damn, telling Neil Druckman/naughty dog how to do their job like your more qualified, foh

It is not badly written because favorite character died. IT is badly written because how it was done and how game forces you to like someone you clearly hate and RELIES with rest of the plot that you should like that someone after some time.

Look at how Final Fantasy 7 and 15 handle same exact thing.

In FF7 you spend shitload of time with Aeris, you bond and at some point character dies.
In FF15 you never interact with Lunafreya other than short shitty memory flashback, you arrive in city, you never talk to her in person and then she dies. Literally first time MC in game talks to her is when she is dying and even then they don't talk. Adding salt to injury after she dies she is literally buried without MC involvement. Then you continue game. After about 20 hours you arrive at her home and then game remembers that maybe you should probably care about Luna and gives you backstory to what happened and artistic CGI which at that point makes as much sense as

This is the difference between shitty and good writing.
 
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Jon Neu

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Oh please, if it's a minority character doesn't greatly impact the main plot you call it "tokienism". If a minority character has a huge part of the main plot - it's "SJW agenda".
So basically any minority inclusion is a lose situation.

I don't know man, when the creator of the game literally says he has this agenda based on third wave feminism and he says that his works are influenced by Anita Sarkeesian, calls himself very progressive and claims that diversity is just as important as gameplay or the story, maybe there is a political agenda at play here.
 
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Azurro

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Oh please, if it's a minority character doesn't greatly impact the main plot you call it "tokienism".

"tokienism"? To be honest, I'd rather have Tolkienism. More Lord of the Rings! ...oh wait, orcs are racist now, somehow. :(

If a minority character has a huge part of the main plot - it's "SJW agenda".
So basically any minority inclusion is a lose situation.

Why don't you just admit that you just want to go back to good old days of buff male protags saving boobs-y women. You got FFVII remake, we got TLOU2.

The inclusivity never bothered me, the mix was very tastefully done.

Oh please, you are setting up a strawman here. How many LGBT people do you see on a daily basis walking downtown? They are less than 5% of the population, having one maybe makes sense if diversity is your drift, but having a zoo of ideology tokens is jarring.

And nice way of calling me a bigot in a roundabout way, but no, I dislike having ideologues come and insert their "activism" into existing popular IPs, do them with a terrible plot (because their ideas is what matter now, not the plot), and then call people names if they don't like it.

If Neil wanted to do a LGBT+ game, he should have made a new IP with all sorts of colors of the rainbow, instead of highjacking existing IPs.

And well, I like to play as relatable, cool characters. If that makes me a "-ist" of whatever, then sure thing, I have no interest in playing as raaaaged "I'm written as a man now, I'm actually a man" Ellie that offs a pregnant lady because Neil gets off on how edgy he is.
 
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DForce

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The funny thing is how Ellie responds to Dina, she literally says: maybe they are dumb.

Well, yes, they are dumb because they are only as smart as the people writing them.

Imagine being a soldier on a secret mission to kill some dude that lives in a very populated and dangerous town. Remember: you are a soldier of a paramilitary group that is ok with killing children and torturing people. Yet somehow, when you have killed the man you came to kill, you decide to let his brother and the girl that is shouting that she is going to kill you all back to their highly populated and armed town. You are going to be a father, but somehow you don't care about your security and the security of your son and his mother.

All the problems of Abby's group would have never happened if they simply killed the two strangers that are nothing to them but have seen their faces and are shouting their deaths. Literally they all get killed because of that incoherent and dumb decision.

And after Ellie kills her doggo, her lover, her pregnant woman friend and tries to actively kill her, Abby -this total psycho who tortured a man to death in front of a crying girl-, just spares her life a second time because, well, we need the plot to continue or something. 10/10 writting.


Makes no sense.

The scene shows Owen keeping the others away from from Ellie so they wouldn't kill her. People keep saying it's bad writing tell others what should happen, which is even far worse and considered.. bad writing.

Abby literally tells Mel that she could stay if she asks for. Because even Abby knows that a pregnant woman traveling in the open is fucking stupid and dangerous, especially when that pregnant woman is your most valuable doctor.

It's dumb to not call it bad writting, because it's literally what it is.

Traveling to a different location is not dumb. They said in the game that the route was secure and the Scars breached it.
 

Ellery

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It is not badly written because favorite character died. IT is badly written because how it was done and how game forces you to like someone you clearly hate and RELIES with rest of the plot that you should like that someone after some time.

Look at how Final Fantasy 7 and 15 handle same exact thing.

In FF7 you spend shitload of time with Aeris, you bond and at some point character dies.
In FF15 you never interact with Lunafreya other than short shitty memory flashback, you arrive in city, you never talk to her in person and then she dies. Literally first time MC in game talks to her is when she is dying and even then they don't talk. Adding salt to injury after she dies she is literally buried without MC involvement.

This is the difference between shitty and good writing.

What exactly would you change about that scene in TLOU2? Where would you put that scene in the game and how should it all go down in your eyes to be considered "good writing"?

Also in my opinion you are not supposed to like Abby by default. The game is not black and white. It is about parallels, perspectives, understanding, growing, the loss of what happens when your mind is filled with nothing but hatred and taking blind revenge and in essence about the consequences of what you do.
 
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farmerboy

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Loved the game. Enjoyed the story. Would have liked them to linger on Joel a bit more, because I fucking loved the character. Give him a proper send off. But it is what it is.

I'll tell you what though, a 33 hr playthrough for me is what you get when its two women involved. Cant they make their bloody minds up? You wanna kill each other or what?

If Joel was Abby, the game would've been 2 hrs long.

Seriously though, my biggest gripe was the length. Felt like we played a directors cut. 8 hrs needed to be cut from that game.
 
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brian0057

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What exactly would you change about that scene in TLOU2? Where would you put that scene in the game and how should it all go down in your eyes to be considered "good writing"?

Also in my opinion you are not supposed to like Abby by default. The game is not black and white. It is about parallels, perspectives, understanding, growing, the loss of what happens when your mind is filled with nothing but hatred and taking blind revenge and in essence about the consequences of what you do.
Maybe have Abby collaborate with Ellie and Joel's group for much longer after he saves Abby but not reveal the names due to Joel and Ellie being cautious.
Later on, when Ellie, Abby and Joel are friendly and respect each other, then you can drop the hammer by Abby learning their names and forcing her to make a Sophie's Choice.
Now the player has a reason to give a damn about Abby and it puts them in an uncomfortable position.
 
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Psykodad

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I noticed when some youtubers were playing they kept saying that the game was anti-male including Angry Joe and I just don't see it. I am a straight white man myself and I fail to see where this assault on me is supposed to be. Some people really do have a zero sum mentality where they thing that if somebody else is rising up then they must be getting pushed down.
It's just beta-males feeling insecure, is all.
I mean, Abby is more alpha than the majority of men nowadays.
Even Ellie is, tbh.
 
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Clear

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It is not badly written because favorite character died. IT is badly written because how it was done and how game forces you to like someone you clearly hate and RELIES with rest of the plot that you should like that someone after some time.

Look at how Final Fantasy 7 and 15 handle same exact thing.

In FF7 you spend shitload of time with Aeris, you bond and at some point character dies.
In FF15 you never interact with Lunafreya other than short shitty memory flashback, you arrive in city, you never talk to her in person and then she dies. Literally first time MC in game talks to her is when she is dying and even then they don't talk. Adding salt to injury after she dies she is literally buried without MC involvement. Then you continue game. After about 20 hours you arrive at her home and then game remembers that maybe you should probably care about Luna and gives you backstory to what happened and artistic CGI which at that point makes as much sense as

This is the difference between shitty and good writing.

Making a character playable and thus present for a huge chunk of the story is not writing, its basic game design. Just having anything around for that length of time will build attachment and make its loss noteworthy. I've seen people get upset over losing favourite guns, but that's to do with utility not narrative brilliance.

Bad writing is having a character around for hours and not using that time to cultivate an impression of them that enriches the overall plot. Luna's plot function in FFXV is not the same as Aerith's in FFVII, not even close, which is why she's not developed nearly so well and why it really doesn't matter.
 
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Hendrick's

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Im confused, Neil talks about YouTubers spreading false spoilers about the story but everything I read when the story leaked ended up being true. I remember after the leaks hit in interviews before the game released he kept saying that context matters when it involved the story. I watch that game from beginning to end and in no way did the context of the plot change my opinion on how shitty that story was.
The leaks were the actual cut-scenes from the game. Not sure how they could be false.
 

Ellery

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Maybe have Abby collaborate with Ellie and Joel's group for much longer after he saves Abby but not reveal the names due to Joel and Ellie being cautious.
Later on, when Ellie, Abby and Joel are friendly and respect each other, then you can drop the hammer by Abby learning their names and forcing her to make a Sophie's Choice.
Now the player has a reason to give a damn about Abby and it puts them in an uncomfortable position.

It sounds like an interesting idea worth exploring (maybe Naughty Dog actually did. In interviews they said they tried a lot of thigns and see what works) where Joel and Tommy maybe give her a wrong name and instead of Abby, Joel and Tommy escaping to the Chalet and meeting Abby's friends they end up somewhere else and meet Ellie and Dina instead and they are using Joel's real name and at that point Abby realizes who is he (to be fair I am not certain if Abby knows what Joel looks like or if she just knows his name). It would be an entirely different game then or a longer one depending on what would follow.

Loved the game. Enjoyed the story. Would have liked them to linger on Joel a bit more, because I fucking loved the character. Give him a proper send off. But it is what it is.

I'll tell you what though, a 33 hr playthrough for me is what you get when its two women involved. Cant they make their bloody minds up? You wanna kill each other or what?

If Joel was Abby, the game would've been 2 hrs long.

Seriously though, my biggest gripe was the length. Felt like we played a directors cut. 8 hrs needed to be cut from that game.

And if I am not mistaken then Naughty Dog also cut a lot from the game (I think in one interview it is being mentioned that the last part in Santa Barbara was supposed to be a lot longer).

Im confused, Neil talks about YouTubers spreading false spoilers about the story but everything I read when the story leaked ended up being true. I remember after the leaks hit in interviews before the game released he kept saying that context matters when it involved the story. I watch that game from beginning to end and in no way did the context of the plot change my opinion on how shitty that story was.

Because there were youtubers saying that both Joel and Ellie die in the game. There were "leaks" that said Abby was trans. There were "leaks" that said Ellie is being hunted down by a christian cult, because Ellie is gay.
That is what Neil Druckmann was talking about.
 
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