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Naughty Dog needs to Pioneer
- Thread starter Mibu no ookami
- Start date
feynoob
Banned
Bethesda games are untouchable, because of how skilled they are at creating the perfect enviroment for players. You can interact with every object in their games.
You can critize the quality of their games (Bugs), but their games are top notch.
We still dont have a skyrim like game.
Captain Toad
Banned
I agree. Naughty Dog needs to remake Oregon Trail.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Modern Naughty Dog has made exactly one good game, and that's The Last of Us 1.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Stopped reading after the fourth word. Won’t get a sane opinion out of someone who says that.
semiconscious
Member
yep. why do people always seek the solution from the same people that created the problem?...
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Nope. Factually incorrect. You probably haven't played a single one of their games from last gen.
Uncharted 4 felt like a dream to play. The combat and movement was smooth and weighty in the best way.
With TLOU2, they take it up a notch, and through in some of the best level design and enemy AI I've played in years. It's truly second to none.
I really want them to stay continue focusing on wide-linear design and narrative for their single player games. There can be a tweak here and there, but I think people are overestimating just how much further games can "innovate" in the truest sense of the word.
Make it a little wider, more interactive (destruction and physics objects, mostly) and livelier (more NPCs) and advance in everything else they've excelled at to this point, and I don't see how anyone could be dissatisfied. We've got enough open worlds and janky "RPGs" on the market as is.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Speaking of ND.
if anybody who hasn't got it and still wants it
TLoU2 £8 BOMBER 99
if anybody who hasn't got it and still wants it
TLoU2 £8 BOMBER 99
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unintelligent orange
Member
ND's writing had brilliance years ago when Amy was there. Since Amy left idk, the direction is questionable at times.
Still waiting on ND to switch gears and reboot J&D properly.
Doom85
Member
Also, I prefer they wrap up their series’ stories before moving on. I only played Jak and Daxter 1, but I assume the third game wrapped things up mostly. Same happened with Uncharted and wrapping up Nathan’s story, though they could continue Chloe and Nadine’s stories. I feel TLOU should get one more story game to end Ellie’s story on a more positive note. Not a cliched happy ending, but at least leave her in a better spot than how she left Part 2.
Then after that, yes maybe look into starting a new series. But even if it’s another third person shooter, as long as it’s a new genre in terms of story, I’m okay with that.
Stooky
Member
Ultrviolence-porn and woke shit just sounds weird in the same sentence, jus saaaaayin....
Griffon
Member
That's what current culture is at. Nobody bats an eye for incredibly violent and graphic executions, but if the characters aren't part of some token minority everyone loses his shit.
Stooky
Member
you sound like you just started playing games yesterday. games have been violent for a long time that's nothing new. that's what the ESRB was born, and that was a battle bigger than this 'woke' bs your talking about. I hope more 'woke' games come out so i can fill my jet tup up anti woke tears.
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Griffon
Member
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
You sound like you have pretty delicate sensibilities. Quite the snowflake we have here.
Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
Are you sure you don't mean modders who's doing miles better job with mods for their games than Bethesda ever did since Oblivion? Cuz that's what quality work means and how it looks like imho.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
What you might be failing to understand is Motion Matching still requires a pool of animations to draw from and large amount of memory to really work well.
Or seriously now, if it is used for NPCs it's piss poor. Like I said I'm actually looking forward to seeing it work in Mirage but at this point, we're derailing the thread.
Which is why Ubisoft for FC6 is likely using a small pool and low memory version, they have alot more NPC active at any one time than say TLOU2.
All the tech actually does is select the best animation for what the character is doing and what they will be doing next.
You might find it odd but actually watch the NPCs in FarCry 6 then go back and watch NPCs in older games or even many lower budget games or JRPGs today, youll see very sharp transitions in older games where you can basically tell the character went from one state to another, with motion matching the state shift is blended well enough you dont notice the transition, the bigger your pool the better the transtions will be cuz motion matching has more options to choose from that may better fit the situation.
You just got so used to seeing motion matching you arent even realizing it is motion matching.
Or you think motion matching is something else.
FarCry 6 motion matching:
But yes we are derailing the thread.
Now that Ubisoft have L-Motion Matching, we shall see how their Avatar game comes out or if SplinterCell remake will be using L-Motion Matching.
Hugare
Member
You dont think that they pushed the envelope with TLOU Part II?
There are no games with animations thst good, even on the PS5.
And a game of that scope, at that detail, havent been made since. It's 2 games in one, and every room in that game is perfectly rendered with unique stuff.
I believe thst Factions will be what you are looking for. It will be a cinematic, story heavy multiplayer game, and if they are able to pull it off, it will be something unique in the industry.
There are no games with animations thst good, even on the PS5.
And a game of that scope, at that detail, havent been made since. It's 2 games in one, and every room in that game is perfectly rendered with unique stuff.
I believe thst Factions will be what you are looking for. It will be a cinematic, story heavy multiplayer game, and if they are able to pull it off, it will be something unique in the industry.
ZehDon
Member
Naughty Dog's not really the studio to push game design, and innovation isn't really what they do. They haven't been Sony's premier studio since Uncharted 4. Their mechanics are polished from a presentation point of view, and it's clear Sony gives them massive budgets, but they're all about presentation. They've been pretty standard for over a generation. Insomniac and SSM are probably Sony's best innovators right now.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
TLOU 2 advanced the medium.
Whatever they do next will need to build upon that and do it again, even better.
The standards are unbelievably high for this studio. But they've earned it.
Whatever they do next will need to build upon that and do it again, even better.
The standards are unbelievably high for this studio. But they've earned it.
Iced Arcade
Member
ND don't need to do a god damn thing beside what they have been doing.
nowhat
Member
I actually just bought FC6 off the annual PSN sale. It's not a pool that the game draws animations from, rather a puddle. Or a waterdrop. The NPC animations can be hilariously bad, also inverse kinematics seem to be completely absent, NPCs walking up a hill is really jarring.
Unknown?
Member
Woke is just another word for pedophilia, you want games about chopping genitals off or something?
Oof85
Banned
What?
Insomniac? SSM?
The western side of SIE has always been the more iterative side.
Jak was originally a collectathon platformer, GTA3 blitzed the industry and Jak2 on got gritty and dark.
No, the innovative wing of SIE has always been Japan Studio and Team Asobi hasn't shown that they're up to carrying on the mantle so far.
There's no replacement for Team Ico as of yet, hence the dissatisfaction of many long-time Playstation fans.
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True, but I think devs should stop fixating on bigger worlds, and use the horse power to design more intricate and believable smaller worlds. More overlapping systems that interact with eachother to create more dynamic events. Create more depth and unexpected possibilities within a highly replayable and dynamic setting.
Focus on integrating physics into gameplay more (instead of just aesthetics). Designing AI with more interesting states, then just 'agro or non-agro'. Using mechanics and systems to demonstrate the inner workings of your worlds and lore, instead of using the language of film to tell your game's story.
Immersive Sims used to try and breaking these boundaries (even more then the establishment AAA devs), but even they nowadays are using conventional design tropes now (Mainly because development is riskier then ever before), instead of dissecting what the interactive language of games can be. I still feel that AAA mostly stagnated after the PS360 days when it comes to massive leaps in design and structure. They're 7th gen games with amazing visual fidelity, but no real meaningful progress in simulation fidelity.
Obligatory post:
Focus on integrating physics into gameplay more (instead of just aesthetics). Designing AI with more interesting states, then just 'agro or non-agro'. Using mechanics and systems to demonstrate the inner workings of your worlds and lore, instead of using the language of film to tell your game's story.
Immersive Sims used to try and breaking these boundaries (even more then the establishment AAA devs), but even they nowadays are using conventional design tropes now (Mainly because development is riskier then ever before), instead of dissecting what the interactive language of games can be. I still feel that AAA mostly stagnated after the PS360 days when it comes to massive leaps in design and structure. They're 7th gen games with amazing visual fidelity, but no real meaningful progress in simulation fidelity.
Obligatory post:
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I dunno, I generally dislike multiplayer games, mostly because I play games for stories, and not for communities/chat where you just do the same thing, on the same maps over and a over and over again a thousand times to maybe get some new skins. Seems all sorts of pointless to me.
The drips of information we have had regarding TLOU multiplayer suggest they are attempting to bring their rich and extensive story telling you see in their single player games to their multiplayer project. If they actually achieve this then I’d say that is way more “pioneering” than them just spitting out a new normal IP, or an RPG. As much as I would rather they do that.
The next big evolution I see coming to games imo will be ai content generation and dialogue. A big RPG world, 100,000 npc’s all of them unique with their own lives and personalities, instead of the same handful of dialogue lines when you walk past them they are different all the time, talking among each other about their interests, lives, world, events. Instead of just a few prefab dialogue options, you can ask them anything in any way you want, just as you would with chatGPT. Obviously I’d you’re talking to a blacksmith, he wouldn’t know much if you start asking him questions about spell craft, tho he may be friends with someone who does and suggest you go see them, all delivered like a natural conversation you have via the mic in the dual sense. This sort of stuff would make the worlds feel much more alive, varied and immersive.
In addition to that we won’t be far off 3d asset generation along the same lines as midjourney. You need an 18th century pub full of relevant objects? Just ask for it and poof there you go. Vs modelling every room, every jug, chair and table manually. This will lead to much bigger more detailed and varied worlds.
That sort of stuff is what will be “pioneering” we’re probably a few years away tho for all the technologies to be mature enough and all integrated in one place in a game engine.
The drips of information we have had regarding TLOU multiplayer suggest they are attempting to bring their rich and extensive story telling you see in their single player games to their multiplayer project. If they actually achieve this then I’d say that is way more “pioneering” than them just spitting out a new normal IP, or an RPG. As much as I would rather they do that.
The next big evolution I see coming to games imo will be ai content generation and dialogue. A big RPG world, 100,000 npc’s all of them unique with their own lives and personalities, instead of the same handful of dialogue lines when you walk past them they are different all the time, talking among each other about their interests, lives, world, events. Instead of just a few prefab dialogue options, you can ask them anything in any way you want, just as you would with chatGPT. Obviously I’d you’re talking to a blacksmith, he wouldn’t know much if you start asking him questions about spell craft, tho he may be friends with someone who does and suggest you go see them, all delivered like a natural conversation you have via the mic in the dual sense. This sort of stuff would make the worlds feel much more alive, varied and immersive.
In addition to that we won’t be far off 3d asset generation along the same lines as midjourney. You need an 18th century pub full of relevant objects? Just ask for it and poof there you go. Vs modelling every room, every jug, chair and table manually. This will lead to much bigger more detailed and varied worlds.
That sort of stuff is what will be “pioneering” we’re probably a few years away tho for all the technologies to be mature enough and all integrated in one place in a game engine.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Bethesda makes RPGs with Naughty Dog quality?... Huh!?!??!
Bethesda makes RPGs... that's about all I can agree with.
The best RPGs of the last two decades, however, haven't come from Bethesda. The Witcher games are from a little multiplatform Polish studio, who also made Cyberpunk (which despite its bugs, is an excellent game approaching the top tier in quality within the genre).
Heck, I'd even take Bioware's golden age epics, i.e. DA1 and ME1,2&3, over everything Bethesda has put out since Morrowind/Skyrim.
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vaibhavpisal
Member
You don't do that out of nowhere.
Its a skill studios develop over many years, giving up on a lot of superficial qualities in games.
Eg, Obsidian uses dedicated toolset for branching dialogue and start development process with it as fundamental aspect of game design.
That's how they come up with reactive worlds to player choices that they make.
Topher
Gold Member
I agree with you that innovation in gameplay isn't what they do. Where Naughty Dog really excels is presentation, as you say, but I'd say it is also in overall execution. The gameplay is done extremely well as ND nails all the little details. And ND incorporates the gameplay into the animations better than anyone in the industry, imo. It all feels so fluid.
feynoob
Banned
People really need to pay attention to the post sometimes.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Wasn't there something about naughty dog having a hard time holding on the talent because of their insane amount of crunch, and no one besides new artists wants to work there because you are treated like shit?
I remember alot about that around TLoU2.
feynoob
Banned
They are crazy for quality. Their games are like movies..
It's easy to get burn out, when you work for companies like that.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Pioneer made and still makes some pretty good shit. I miss geneon 
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
That's not an excuse to have a work place that treats you like expendable shit.
The "their games are like movies" always makes me sad.
feynoob
Banned
That is normal thing in this industry.
Microsoft uses cheap labor from other countries for their business. Gaming companies used crunch and cheap labor to hit their deadline.
No company reach's that kind of level, without these type of treatment.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
I don't give a fuck who does it or not.
Naughty Dog has been in focus because they are probably the worst, or pretty close to being.
feynoob
Banned
There are worst companies out there. It's just naughty dog is a high profile, it's why you hear about them.
LavitzSlambert
Member
ND is getting too comfortable making linear cinematic blockbuster games, I agree they should branch out. An RPG would be a great transitional project. But I’d like to see them mess around like Asobi and come up with something completely different, the way Housemarque did Returnal.
I would just like one studio from them to work on that and slowly develop it until they can use that refine that process to be able to be used on other first party games. Obsidian and Bethesda aren't ridiculously big so Sony could create something similar in like at most a decade. I feel like Horizon is a step in that direction and they could simply expand from there in the next game.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
I think they pushed the envelope on TLOU2 through polish and iteration more than innovation and revolution.
