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Opinion Clickbait Naughty Dog made female characters less feminine to be trans friendly (No Spoilers)

FALCON_KICK

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I mean, dude, literally the motherfucking creator of this games says he has this secret agenda based on third wave feminism and Anita Sarkeesian that he infuses into his games and his character designs.
Has anyone able to explain why Asav from lost legacy able to dodge and land punches/kicks on Nadine Ross who is touted as being better at combat because of her military background while Nathan Drake and his brother unable to do the same.

Is it because of feminist ideology that Nadine can beat Nathan/Sam?
Is it because Nathan Drake and his brother white so they dont beat woman? So is ND racist against Asav?

 

Grinchy

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Where does abby get all that juice in the post apocalypse? Sounds to me like drukman has a fetish for muscular women.
Of all people to paraphrase, I actually think Pewdiepie said it well (and I hate writing that sentence).

He said the way that Dreck-Man decided to push some kind of little wokeness into so many characters makes you see the sock puppet man instead of the sock puppets. In other words, it becomes so glaringly obvious why these choices were made for the characters that you are pulled out of the illusion of the story because all you can see is the guy who so desperately wanted to push these choices.

And I totally agree. Your brain can't ignore this many ridiculous choices all at once. When you go from She-Hulk to trans boy to pregnant lady doing acrobatics to lesbian romance to....you know what I'm saying? It's just one thing after another, that on their own, wouldn't have stuck out so much. But it's like you're being hit with a woke machinegun that's guaranteed to pull you out.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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If that statement is really true, doesn’t that philosophy or thought process technically apply to majority of Western developers now? Seems like most Western developers are purposely making their characters less feminine, plain-looking, uglier or less imaginative.

This is not even remotely surprising. Remember MK11, Dishonored 2, Remnant of the Ashes, The Division, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, Uncharted: LL to name a few? Capcom was even supposedly told to “tone down” Claire’s feminine appearance in RE2: Remake for the Western audience. Jill’s classic RE3 outfit was censored or toned down as well.
 
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BlitzerRadic

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Taller, not more muscular

Owen is taller and more muscular. Compare the arms:



 
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Business

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Of all people to paraphrase, I actually think Pewdiepie said it well (and I hate writing that sentence).

He said the way that Dreck-Man decided to push some kind of little wokeness into so many characters makes you see the sock puppet man instead of the sock puppets. In other words, it becomes so glaringly obvious why these choices were made for the characters that you are pulled out of the illusion of the story because all you can see is the guy who so desperately wanted to push these choices.

And I totally agree. Your brain can't ignore this many ridiculous choices all at once. When you go from She-Hulk to trans boy to pregnant lady doing acrobatics to lesbian romance to....you know what I'm saying? It's just one thing after another, that on their own, wouldn't have stuck out so much. But it's like you're being hit with a woke machinegun that's guaranteed to pull you out.

Exactly, I posted basically the same yesterday on another thread.

Then there's the famous agenda. I personally don't mind if there's a lesbian character, a lesbian couple with a kid sexing around the house, a woman built like an ox that's physically stronger than basically any other character in the game or a kid that comes out as trans. None of these is really an issue, but I will say that having them ALL combined in the few characters of the main cast of the game is borderline ridiculous.
 
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BlitzerRadic

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They’re pretty much in the same ballpark, though in game Abby’s arms look bigger.

Funny how the pre sex scene is Abby manhandling Owen and he grabs her from her hair. Doesn’t seem that Owen is stronger than her.

Abby looks like she's ~3" shorter than Owen. Men have bigger heads than women. Compare the size of Owen's arms relative to his head and compare the size of Abby's arms relative to the size of her head. Abby's arms may look bigger but that is because her torso is a lot smaller compared to Owen's.

There is also a scene in the game where they are standing next to each other at the aquarium and you can clearly see in that scene that Owen is a lot bigger than Abby.

I'm not saying Abby isn't jacked, because she is. She's far more muscular than a typical woman. But she is not in the same ballpark as Owen.
 

TissueBox

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Actually, it could have used some diversity in their female characters.

Hot women and women who dress sexy exist. Stop oppressing them.

And there's a lot of them depicted in media, nothing wrong with showing the other side for a change.
 

CobraXT

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I have to say after watching the whole game in youtube , Abby muscles are absolutely dumb and hilarious , no way in hell she's consuming
enough kcal a day in an apocalypse to keep her muscle mass like that, sure her base is a literal gym, but she's literally the only buff person
around , not to mention even with that women cannot get this kind of body without male hormones and steroids

From another thread >
 
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supernova8

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Genuine question to everyone who is getting uppety about this (and partly playing devil's advocate):

I see a lot of comments where people say "Well it'd be OK if it weren't so forced" or "It feels like they are shoe-horning LGBTQXYZ (whatever) people into X game".

Under what circumstances could developers/publishers include LGBT people and it not come across as being forced/shoe-horned?

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of those comments are a cover for "I just don't want LGBT people in X game". Honestly, correct me if I'm wrong!
 
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Rikoi

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Genuine question to everyone who is getting uppety about this (and partly playing devil's advocate):

I see a lot of comments where people say "Well it'd be OK if it weren't so forced" or "It feels like they are shoe-horning LGBTQXYZ (whatever) people into X game".

Under what circumstances could developers/publishers include LGBT people and it not come across as being forced/shoe-horned?

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of those comments are a cover for "I just don't want LGBT people in X game". Honestly, correct me if I'm wrong!
Someone might know better than me but I read somewhere that people that have a same sex attraction (so this counts bi- and trans too I guess?) is about 5% of the total. So that makes it.... 1 character every 20 characters? Unless you want to include more on purpose.
 
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supernova8

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Someone might know better than me but I read somewhere that people that have a same sex attraction (so this counts bi- and trans too I guess?) is about 5% of the total. So that makes it.... 1 character every 20 characters? Unless you want to include more on purpose.

Yeah that makes sense. In counter to that, I would say that the vast majority of characters aren't any kind of LGBT. It might just be because these Naughty Dog games get the lion's share of mindshare (shares all round) that it seems like more. I guess it depends on whether you mean only 1/20 of Naughty Dog's character should be LGBT (if any) or the industry as a whole in terms of game/character design.

If you looked at all games in existence, I would hazard a guess that even less than 1/20 of the characters are LGBT.

Or as a more recent example, if you look at the Sony PS5 reveal, I can only think of Goodbye Volcano High as a title that seemed to be making any references to LGBT. I guess given the number of games actually shown, you could say it was more than the 1/20 hypothetical quota but... meh I used to get irritated by this stuff but now I feel that as long as the game itself is still good, I find that I become less bothered over time.
 
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PanzerAzel

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Genuine question to everyone who is getting uppety about this (and partly playing devil's advocate):

I see a lot of comments where people say "Well it'd be OK if it weren't so forced" or "It feels like they are shoe-horning LGBTQXYZ (whatever) people into X game".

Under what circumstances could developers/publishers include LGBT people and it not come across as being forced/shoe-horned?

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of those comments are a cover for "I just don't want LGBT people in X game". Honestly, correct me if I'm wrong!
It's difficult to articulate, but easy to spot. Placing priority upon the narrative first is under what circumstances it's fine. That's when it comes off as natural and unforced. Beginning with an ideology and placing focus upon it to make a social and political commentary stemming from outside the game within the game is when people take issue.

As someone mentioned above, it's like being repeatedly hit with a woke machine gun over and over and over while playing. A LGBT couple? No problem whatsoever, in fact fully expected given where we had left off on Left Behind's characterization of Ellie with her relationship with Riley. "Bigot Sandwiches"? Alright, amusing. Garbage, meme-tier writing, but amusing. A she-hulk playable character that's given no real narrative justification in the game world for her size and that stretches believability? Sure. A pregnant woman dead-lifting her weight up a rope? Uh-huh. Oh yeah, here's a trans kid you have to go rescue and hear of his gender identity tale of woe. But not before the female Sepharite brutes you have to fight that are laughably large, alongside many female models in the game that are highly androgynous in their design. As a final note, we'll include this "Dr. Uckman" super-hero collectible card "fighting for equality", just to make sure, if you've somehow miraculously missed all the above. Then we'll bookend the game with both an opening and closing shot of a butterfly on the neck of the guitar.

But it seems if we take any issue with any of this, we're bigoted, homophobic, transphobic basement-dwelling virgin incel losers.

Any one of those on their own wouldn't raise anyone's brow. But after a certain point, as a collective, it's so glaringly obvious what's going on here that it pulls you out of the experience because an agenda is consistently being pushed in your face again, and again, and again. Druckmann couldn't help but unload his ideological wad all over this game. It's like he's just been waiting to be appointed creative director so he could bust his nut in one go. It saddens me that one of my favorite studios of Sony's is now headed by this hack who is using Naughty Dog to vent his ideological frustrations, and we can all rest assured, all future games from them are going to double-down on this artificial and hamfisted nonsense. It's only going to get worse from here.
 
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M3Freak

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Someone might know better than me but I read somewhere that people that have a same sex attraction (so this counts bi- and trans too I guess?) is about 5% of the total. So that makes it.... 1 character every 20 characters? Unless you want to include more on purpose.

5% seems way too high. It's less than that; a lot less. Think about it. The number has to be lower or you're looking at a human population crash. It's gotta be right around 1%.
 

supernova8

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It's difficult to articulate, but easy to spot. Placing priority upon the narrative first is under what circumstances it's fine. That's when it comes off as natural and unforced. Beginning with an ideology and placing focus upon it to make a social and political commentary stemming from outside the game within the game is when people take issue.

As someone mentioned above, it's like being repeatedly hit with a woke machine gun over and over and over while playing. A LGBT couple? No problem whatsoever, in fact fully expected given where we had left off on Left Behind's characterization of Ellie with her relationship with Riley. "Bigot Sandwiches"? Alright, amusing. Garbage, meme-tier writing, but amusing. A she-hulk playable character that's given no real narrative justification in the game world for her size and that stretches believability? Sure. A pregnant woman dead-lifting her weight up a rope? Uh-huh. Oh yeah, here's a trans kid you have to go rescue and hear of his gender identity tale of woe. But not before the female Sepharite brutes you have to fight that are laughably large, alongside many female models in the game that are highly androgynous in their design. As a final note, we'll include this "Dr. Uckman" super-hero collectible card "fighting for equality", just to make sure, if you've somehow miraculously missed all the above. Then we'll bookend the game with both an opening and closing shot of a butterfly on the neck of the guitar.

But it seems if we take any issue with any of this, we're bigoted, homophobic, transphobic basement-dwelling virgin incel losers.

Any one of those on their own wouldn't raise anyone's brow. But after a certain point, as a collective, it's so glaringly obvious what's going on here that it pulls you out of the experience because an agenda is consistently being pushed in your face again, and again, and again. Druckmann couldn't help but unload his ideological wad all over this game. It's like he's just been waiting to be appointed creative director so he could bust his nut in one go. It saddens me that one of my favorite studios of Sony's is now headed by this hack who is using Naughty Dog to vent his ideological frustrations, and we can all rest assured, all future games from them are going to double-down on this artificial and hamfisted nonsense. It's only going to get worse from here.

Hey there thanks for the detailed and considered response. I personally haven't played the game (don't intend to... TLoU as a series just isn't my thing) so I guess I cannot really relate to some of the in-game details you mention, but I guess it makes more sense now you've fleshed it out a bit. The Dr.Uckman thing sounds almost like a troll that he put in there to specifically trigger people.

I too long for the days when games were free of politics, X people's rights movements etc. I personally pick up a game to temporarily remove myself from the real world of people moaning all the time (on both sides) but if what you describe is accurate, it sounds like we cannot even escape this stuff in games.

I'm maybe paraphrasing but your argument seems to be that you don't mind there being LGBT characters as long as there's no included long-winded narrative/segment about their struggles as an X whatever person that detracts from the main point of the game. I can see that. I would tend to agree. Personally would not care one bit if, say, Nate Drake was gay. If the first half of the game was him going on about how his life has been such a misery because he couldn't find the right moment to 'come out' (which I don't belittle in any way, I'm sure it is hard to do in many circumstances), I would find it tedious pretty fast.

It would be perfect if we could get to the point where the fact that a character is LGBT is literally just in their bio and has no bearing on the game itself, because, in theory, it shouldn't. I'm not gonna lie and say I wouldn't skip a guy-on-guy kissing scene but to be honest I would probably skip a guy-on-girl kissing scene in a game because I'm not into hentai heh...
 

brokenduck

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Thing is the trans community still hates them for all that anyway. That’s the mentality of many of transgender people. Hopefully they will have data of how many LGBT people bought their game, likely very few.
 
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shubik

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Thing is the trans community still hates them for all that anyway. That’s the mentality of many of transgender people. Hopefully they will have data of how many LGBT people bought their game, likely very few.

How would you even acquire such data? Are you asking your customers about their sexual identity during check out? Also, I´m really not a fan of your generalized statements.
 

Jon Neu

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Genuine question to everyone who is getting uppety about this (and partly playing devil's advocate):

I see a lot of comments where people say "Well it'd be OK if it weren't so forced" or "It feels like they are shoe-horning LGBTQXYZ (whatever) people into X game".

Under what circumstances could developers/publishers include LGBT people and it not come across as being forced/shoe-horned?

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like most of those comments are a cover for "I just don't want LGBT people in X game". Honestly, correct me if I'm wrong!

Ironically, SJW have ruined diversity inclusion in media.

Their choices of including any type of inclusive character in a game is always political, is always meant to sent a message. They don’t choose a gay character because it can be fun, they do it to preach and virtue signalling. They do it because it’s part of a political discourse.

We sensed before the game was out that Ellie was going to face a “bigot” situation. And then there’s the whole little girl who wants to be a male but she is oppressed by it. And then Abby, and then the rest of the females of that world and the way they are designed is so obvious. It’s a political agenda, an agenda we are seeing being forced into everything, a reactionary political agenda that among other things, claim that white cis males are inherently evil. A totalitarian political wave which is behind the cancel culture of today and the vilification of gamers and nerds because they were all basically cis white males.
 
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shubik

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Ironically, SJW have ruined diversity inclusion in media.

Their choices of including any type of inclusive character in a game is always political, is always meant to sent a message. They don’t choose a gay character because it can be fun, they do it to preach and virtue signalling. They do it because it’s part of a political discourse.

We sensed before the game was out that Ellie was going to face a “bigot” situation. And then there’s the whole little girl who wants to be a male but she is oppressed by it. And then Abby, and then the rest of the females of that world and the way they are designed is so obvious. It’s a political agenda, an agenda we are seeing being forced into everything, a reactionary political agenda that among other things, claim that white cis males are inherently evil. A totalitarian political wave which is behind the cancel culture of today and the vilification of gamers and nerds because they were all basically cis white males.


Your posts are fucking insane. Please get help
 
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shubik

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What a surprise. Guy writes down a detailed post and all you can do is try to perform a personal attack against him because you can't counter an argument. It's always the same attitude lol

LOL, I was arguing with this guy for days. What's the point? He is not even trying to answer questions. He just keeps spamming every single The las of us 2 thread with his deranged political bullshit agenda. It's borderline insane. And I´m passive aggressive? Yeah sure...
 
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RJMacready73

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Or maybe seeing as I have yet to play the game (I really shouldn’t be dipping in and out of these threads as I’ve managed to remain spoiler free ffs) the women are portrayed exactly as one would imagine women to be in a post-apocalyptic world once you remove all the usual assortment of female stereotypes.. It’s a fucking godamn zombie apocalypse not a nite out on the town with your girlfriends dolled to nines, these women would be lean, rough looking killing machines probably on par with their male counterparts… anyways im noppin out before I see something I shouldnt
 
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lock2k

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LOL, I was arguing with this guy for days. What's the point? He is not even trying to answer questions. He just keeps spamming every single The las of us 2 thread with his deranged political bullshit agenda. It's borderline insane. And I´m passive aggressive? Yeah sure...

Google Neil Druckmann and see who actually has a deranged political bullshit agenda. lol
 

shubik

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Google Neil Druckmann and see who actually has a deranged political bullshit agenda. lol

Sure sure... the liberal agenda to secretly make gamers gay or trans and to plant the Marxist/neoliberal one-world government political idea in their head?
 
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lock2k

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Sure sure... the liberal agenda to secretly make gamers gay or trans and to plant the Marxist/neoliberal one-world government political idea in their head?

The dude had fucking Anita Sarkeesian on stage and stated her influence on his work. That IS political bullshit. And it's not secret, it's well documented.

This whole "turn gamers gay or trans" bullshit is on you. It's not about that. Not one sane soul is saying that.
 

Rikoi

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LOL, I was arguing with this guy for days. What's the point? He is not even trying to answer questions. He just keeps spamming every single The las of us 2 thread with his deranged political bullshit agenda. It's borderline insane. And I´m passive aggressive? Yeah sure...
So you are telling me, you have been arguing with him for days and he's the one having a mental breakdown because he keeps stating his opinion and won't change his mind. Why do you keep replying him if you think it's all bs? How come he needs mental help and you don't? I'd be interested to know why you think you are right and he's wrong.
 
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shubik

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The dude had fucking Anita Sarkeesian on stage and stated her influence on his work. That IS political bullshit. And it's not secret, it's well documented.

This whole "turn gamers gay or trans" bullshit is on you. It's not about that. Not one sane soul is saying that.

I was exaggerating on purpose...

Ok, and how did this actually reflect on ND´s games so far and TLOU2 in particular? How did Druckmann mentioning her as his influence made the las of us part 2 a worse game than it could have been?
 

shubik

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So you are telling me, you have been arguing with him for days and he's the one having a mental breakdown because he keeps stating his opinion and won't change his mind. Why do you keep replying him if you think it's all bs? How come he needs mental help and you don't? I'd be interested to know why you think you are right and he's wrong.


It´s not that he states his opinion. It´s how he is doing it. He is not interested in a discussion. He is derailing every single Thread with this over and over again. He brings up the same stuff without context. That's why I´m trying to argue with him.

Never said I don´t need mental help. Maybe we all do every once in a while
 

lock2k

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I was exaggerating on purpose...

Ok, and how did this actually reflect on ND´s games so far and TLOU2 in particular? How did Druckmann mentioning her as his influence made the las of us part 2 a worse game than it could have been?

Who said anything about the quality of game? I don't recall saying anything about that.

You are always evading what we are saying and coming up with stuff that's unrelated.
 

shubik

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Who said anything about the quality of game? I don't recall saying anything about that.

You are always evading what we are saying and coming up with stuff that's unrelated.


that´s what he said several times. So just to make sure I got you right. You only dislike Druckmann because of his political views that he displayed during a conference and several interviews he gave in the past but you don´t think that this reflects in his games right?
 

lock2k

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that´s what he said several times. So just to make sure I got you right. You only dislike Druckmann because of his political views that he displayed during a conference and several interviews he gave in the past but you don´t think that this reflects in his games right?

Again. Where did I say that?