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MLiD is take on the PS5 pro and new Xbox

Vognerful

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May 21, 2020
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Summary:

  • The PS5 pro and slim are coming by end of 2023 according to his sources.
  • Did not share details on the spec but will use 6nm
  • His take on 8K gaming is that it is waste of resources and the games has to come with method of upscaling
  • Microsoft is planning to release an update for Xbox series S by end of 2022. It will unlock all disabled CU and match Xbox series X clocks and will use 6nm as well.
  • The price target is less than 350.
  • The Xbox series S (original) will be reduced in price between 190 to 250 USD.
  • The updated Xbox series X will come after 2023 and probably after ps5 pro is released.
 

RoadHazard

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Actual 8K rendering would take more than 4x the pixel pushing power we have now ("more than" because we usually aren't even at native 4K currently), so yeah, that's not happening. And shouldn't. Focus on native 4K60 with some other bells and whistles over current consoles (better RT etc), and you've eaten up a 2x increase in power, which is about what we can hope for.
 
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supernova8

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And wasn't this all his guesses? That summary sounds like he's got sources saying all those things.................................................................

He's been pretty good with AMD, Intel and Nvidia stuff. Not perfect but who is? Based on that, I'd say it's not crazy to think he has sources related to console stuff.

Funny though that there's talk about mid-gen refreshes when so many people cannot even get hold of the current next-gen consoles at MSRP.
 

Banjo64

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Ludicrous take sorry.

I just can’t see it. The Pro/One X made sense because of the uplift in 4k TV sales, whilst when the generation started with people primarily using 1080p sets.

There is no uptake in 8k TV sales and they haven’t penetrated the market.

I can maybe see revisions that target true 4k instead of 1440p-1800p upscale but what is the point really?

The only way I can see this happening is if it’s now more cost effective for the console manufacturers to release upgrades instead of slim models.
 
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clintar

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He's been pretty good with AMD, Intel and Nvidia stuff. Not perfect but who is? Based on that, I'd say it's not crazy to think he has sources related to console stuff.

Funny though that there's talk about mid-gen refreshes when so many people cannot even get hold of the current next-gen consoles at MSRP.
But I watched that video and thought he repeatedly said it was just his take or what he thought what they might do.
 

elbourreau

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Give me 128K or give me death!!

explosion GIF
 

SegaSnatcher

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Creating a new console to support 8K is wasteful. Vast majority won't even own such sets and those who do would need to much closer to their screens to even notice a difference and even then 8K is at the point of diminishing returns.
 
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Hunnybun

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I'd much much rather we just made an earlier move to next gen.

We've seen with Metro Exodus that PCs are pretty much ready to have games designed around RT, and so for as long as this generation exists that big leap in graphics is basically going to be held back because of the rudimentary RT performance of the consoles.
 
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Badbreezy

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They can hardly make the current consoles now due to the chip shortage, if anything they're going to cut costs and make it more efficient
 

TrueLegend

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My take is that I am all in for Ps5 pro, Series X refresh because TSMC cares about selling silicon. And if new and upcoming silicon goes into making PS5 and Series X then that is better than being used for GPUs which will never be sold at sensible prices as long as mining is not globally banned. Hell even consoles can be used for mining but unless the cost of consoles is too low they wont be getting into mining. We need a better Microsoft and Sony store front with reasonable pricing and then I wouldn't mind playing only on console. The cost of consoles is high but the cost of GPU is just messed up.
 

M1chl

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I'd much much rather we just made an earlier move to next gen.

We've seen with Metro Exodus that PCs are pretty much ready to have games designed around RT, and so for as long as this generation exists that big leap in graphics is basically going to be held back because of the rudimentary RT performance of the consoles.
Umm...that same game, is running in 1440p on Consoles in 60 FPS, I am not sure if that's a "rudimentary RT performance"...
 

Hunnybun

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Umm...that same game, is running in 1440p on Consoles in 60 FPS, I am not sure if that's a "rudimentary RT performance"...

I think it's less than that on PS5, and this is on a last gen game.

I doubt many developers are going to be willing to target basically 1080p for the biggest platform out there, so imo the likelihood is that very few games will be designed around RT lighting, and RT features that are just bolted on like shadows or reflections are almost worthless compared to that.

Therefore the consoles are bound to hold back proper RT implementation for as long as they're the lead platforms.
 

Hunnybun

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Classic "leaker" tactic,just say there might be a sequel to a popular recent game at a new event and you always have a chance of being right

He did specifically say that it'd be revealed as a 2021 game, though, which was a bit curious. Don't forget that very few people really expected that announcement then, either, because of the huge number of reveals Sony already made at the first show.

I think in general the guy is full of shit, but I imagine he'd probably heard something about GOW from somewhere.
 
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Xyphie

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Has this guy ever been right

He's actually had some info about Intel stuff that wasn't widely known, so I'll give him some credit there. Most of his content is just regurgitating leaks from other sources as his own, or just making dumb shit up by himself (Zen3 SMT4, PS5 has Infinity Cache/RDNA3/Unified Cache, AMD consumer GPUs will have SSDs on them etc) though.
 
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M1chl

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I think it's less than that on PS5, and this is on a last gen game.

I doubt many developers are going to be willing to target basically 1080p for the biggest platform out there, so imo the likelihood is that very few games will be designed around RT lighting, and RT features that are just bolted on like shadows or reflections are almost worthless compared to that.

Therefore the consoles are bound to hold back proper RT implementation for as long as they're the lead platforms.
The engine has been reworked, it's something which other games from 4A will run on. It has full RT pipeline and honestly, I would recommend you to play it. The jump from 30 FPS from last Pro consoles to 60FPS and with this RT pipeline on top is crazy jump. So I think these console can last quite a bit of time. Sure 4k and 120hz would be better, but that's like an unreasonable for 500 fucking dollars. Fuck on PC you won't buy just a GPU for this price.

I can guarantee you that the game is impressive, it was before, but yet again 4A is showing that they are on the very top of the industry in technical solutions. And this is studio, which began, when they smuggled PC to Ukraine, they simply cannot get enough praise.
 
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supernova8

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But I watched that video and thought he repeatedly said it was just his take or what he thought what they might do.

Yeah not saying what he said was based on sources (this time). Just saying I wouldn't be surprised if he knew stuff because he does seem to have sources inside the major chip companies. Other "leakers" occasionally credit him with leaking stuff first (or rather conveying what others are leaking who actually have the first-hand information) so I suspect he does have stuff.

It's annoying how he sort of dripfeeds information when it's obvious he's sitting on more, but at least it's better than RedGamingTech who just vomits out videos on a daily basis with no real effort whatsoever (not to mention his disgusting oily hair and 400-year old t-shirt).
 

supernova8

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He did specifically say that it'd be revealed as a 2021 game, though, which was a bit curious. Don't forget that very few people really expected that announcement then, either, because of the huge number of reveals Sony already made at the first show.

I think in general the guy is full of shit, but I imagine he'd probably heard something about GOW from somewhere.

To be fair he did clearly say that most of his comments regarding game announcements were just his opinion and not based on any sources. I think he only made that video to cash in on the hype and clicks pre-Sony's event. He usually steers clear of gaming software stuff and just sticks to hardware (which he does seem to be good with).
 

ZywyPL

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Has this gut been right at least once? I mean:

- Did not share details on the spec but will use 6nm

That's where he already has it all wrong, 6nm is way not enough advancement compared to 7nm for a Pro model, let alone Slim. The 350$ doesn't make any sense at all either, if anything, MS will want to lower the price point even further.
 
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Hunnybun

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The engine has been reworked, it's something which other games from 4A will run on. It has full RT pipeline and honestly, I would recommend you to play it. The jump from 30 FPS from last Pro consoles to 60FPS and with this RT pipeline on top is crazy jump. So I think these console can last quite a bit of time. Sure 4k and 120hz would be better, but that's like an unreasonable for 500 fucking dollars. Fuck on PC you won't buy just a GPU for this price.

I can guarantee you that the game is impressive, it was before, but yet again 4A is showing that they are on the very top of the industry in technical solutions. And this is studio, which began, when they smuggled PC to Ukraine, they simply cannot get enough praise.

I think we're talking at cross purposes. I'm not denying that the game is impressive. I'm actually using it as an example of what can be achieved when a game is designed around RT.

The point is, though, that that approach doesn't look that fruitful to me because the consoles struggle to run it at 60fps at a good resolution. Personally I doubt they'd be able to do it at all with a next gen game that's already using some resources on more advanced graphics.

Therefore it won't pay for developers to design next gen games around RT lighting. Therefore games won't be, and the PCs that could easily handle such lighting will be left to use that power on more marginal RT features like reflections etc.

Just my prediction.
 

M1chl

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I think we're talking at cross purposes. I'm not denying that the game is impressive. I'm actually using it as an example of what can be achieved when a game is designed around RT.

The point is, though, that that approach doesn't look that fruitful to me because the consoles struggle to run it at 60fps at a good resolution. Personally I doubt they'd be able to do it at all with a next gen game that's already using some resources on more advanced graphics.

Therefore it won't pay for developers to design next gen games around RT lighting. Therefore games won't be, and the PCs that could easily handle such lighting will be left to use that power on more marginal RT features like reflections etc.

Just my prediction.
Well what is "good resolution" and what is "next-gen games", because for a long time we are getting at the very top of what humans can achieve in reasonable time. For me no game is worth 5 year of waiting for it to be 10 hour product. I think in terms of scope, we are already pretty much "there", only issue was in the last game slow HDDs, which is now solved. And also CPU for physics.

Besides in this gen, is possible to fly without loading throughout the whole world, I don't think you can get much more next-gen that this...
 

On Demand

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Consoles are having a hard time being manufactured now. Let’s introduce another model where there would be even less manufactured.

Doesn’t make any sense and I don’t believe there will be any different more powerful spec console releases this generation. It’s not needed anyway.
 
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Hunnybun

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Well what is "good resolution" and what is "next-gen games", because for a long time we are getting at the very top of what humans can achieve in reasonable time. For me no game is worth 5 year of waiting for it to be 10 hour product. I think in terms of scope, we are already pretty much "there", only issue was in the last game slow HDDs, which is now solved. And also CPU for physics.

Besides in this gen, is possible to fly without loading throughout the whole world, I don't think you can get much more next-gen that this...

A good resolution is one that looks crisp on a 4k tv.

A next gen game is one that takes significant advantage of the increased processing power of next gen consoles.

Given that one would assume that the general increase in fidelity of, say, R&C Rift Apart at 60fps with no RT over R&C 2016 at 60fps on PS5, requires the consumption of some of that extra processing power, doesn't it stand to reason that there would be less power left for the RT operations?

That's to say, once games move properly into the next gen era, there'll actually be less spare power for RT like we saw in Metro Exodus, and so unless devs just go for ~1080p OR 30fps (neither of which are worth tolerating for RT), then I don't see how we're going to get lots of titles specifically designed around RT global lighting.
 

Bernd Lauert

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8K is 4x of 4K... current consoles can't even do 4K consistently. Unless these pro consoles are 50+ TF, 8K will stay a meme.
 

M1chl

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A good resolution is one that looks crisp on a 4k tv.

A next gen game is one that takes significant advantage of the increased processing power of next gen consoles.

Given that one would assume that the general increase in fidelity of, say, R&C Rift Apart at 60fps with no RT over R&C 2016 at 60fps on PS5, requires the consumption of some of that extra processing power, doesn't it stand to reason that there would be less power left for the RT operations?

That's to say, once games move properly into the next gen era, there'll actually be less spare power for RT like we saw in Metro Exodus, and so unless devs just go for ~1080p OR 30fps (neither of which are worth tolerating for RT), then I don't see how we're going to get lots of titles specifically designed around RT global lighting.
1440p is pretty crisp and it's better than 4k 30, that's for sure. And yes RT ops and Rasterize ops, eating extra resources, because they are not decoupled. That's why the Metro Exodus: EE is revolutionary in a sense, that it's using solely RT, that way both system are not eating each others resources. However, there is one catch, which is that current development, the creation process have to change, since there isn't a "prebaked" lights thing to do, if it's full RT. So maybe games in the initial stage of this process will look bland. And the reason why you haven't see much titles with global illumination and so on is that the hybrid approach with RT and raster isn't something which is RDNA 2 strong at.
 

Sosokrates

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If they want to keep the pro consoles at the same power usage of about 220watts, I dont see a massive improvement for a pro version,
If sony were to do the same strategy as the ps4 pro and double the compute units to 72 it would require a lot more power and SoC size andore cost.

For a pro model I dont see sony goong higher then 56cus with 4 inactive, giving 15tflops @2254mhz


Buy to be honest, 6nm is not a big enough jump to make pro versions possible at the cost and power requirements of a home console.

Microsoft doing a revised S model sounds plausible. But it will still inactive cus to help with redundancy.

A 24 active cu @ 1825mhz would provide a 5.6tflop GPU, which would make it better but not massivly metro exodus would be like 720p- 1152p instead of dipping below 600p in some areas and being like 590p - 900p it is now
 

Sosokrates

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Also, I hope the pro variants are about Raytracing,lumen rather then just resolution increases.

While native 4k is great and given the choice i would choose it over a lower resolution, I think with the xsx + ps5 we have gotten to the point where resolution is good enough and not really the area that should be focused on.

I suppose one silver lining for me is, if these consoles are all about higher res, it means I wont be getting one which will save me a buck or 2.
 

ZywyPL

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8K is 4x of 4K... current consoles can't even do 4K consistently. Unless these pro consoles are 50+ TF, 8K will stay a meme.

Yeah, current consoles do around 1440-1800p, while real 4K is already rare with not even one year into the generation, and it'll only get lower with time, so 8K is obviously a song of a distant future, unless they'll (most definitely) bet on image upscaling/reconstruction. An RTX 3090 already does 8K30 thanks to DLSS, so nothing's impossible. But given that the consoles are based on AMD hardware, I expect FSR to become widely utilized in the future, with the tech itself being more advanced than it is today.

But I personally think that if the mid-gen refresh models will indeed be a thing again, I think this time around they'll focus not on resolution but on framerate instead. With people already getting a taste of more than a mere 30FPS and loving it, I think many would like to buy a console targeting 60-120FPS in every single title.
 

Rikkori

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If they market 8K it will be just the same as they did with 4K with the Pro consoles, it's going to be reconstructed to it. 8K DLSS UP (1440p->4320p) still looks better than 4K DLSS Q (1440p->2160p) so by the time it releases I'm sure AMD will have a solution like that available also (and obviously XeSS will be available too as it's open source).

 
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anyone could pull this stuff out their ass because it's so damn obvious.

IF Sony/MS are doing mid gen refreshes then it's not too crazy or absurd to think that 2023 is that year that will happen. last gen started in 2013 and got refreshed in 2016. so ~3 years after launch is the perfect time to do another refresh.

not sharing the specs = he doesn't know shit.

8K gaming is absolutely ridiculously pointless. unless you sit really close to your TV and i mean like inches away OR you have an really large TV (like 90-120") then you will NOT notice any difference from 4K. it's a waste of processing power. PC gaming hasn't even moved to 5K yet and we are talking about a small low powered box with shit airflow doing 8K? hahahahahahahahahahaha. YES if "8K" was to be done on consoles it would absolutely need upscaling. to get 8K upscaling you'd need to RENDER a game at 1440p at least with really good AI upscaling. and even then what's the point? it's "fake" pixels. just fucking stick to 4K for goodness sake.
 

iHaunter

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Actual 8K rendering would take more than 4x the pixel pushing power we have now ("more than" because we usually aren't even at native 4K currently), so yeah, that's not happening. And shouldn't. Focus on native 4K60 with some other bells and whistles over current consoles (better RT etc), and you've eaten up a 2x increase in power, which is about what we can hope for.
They can barely do 4k/60. These clowns think they're going to do 8k on a $400 console?

$4k PC will struggle to do 8k/30.
 

hlm666

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(and obviously XeSS will be available too as it's open source).
The digital foundry interview with intel when they are talking about xess (19 minutes is where the question starts) doesn't sound as open source as open source implies. They basically say they are publishing an api and using their own "internal engines" (that's what people call black boxes when nvidia does it) under the api and he never answers the source code question so that's pretty much a yeh no source code.

It'll run on amd and nvidia hardware but this sounds like another physx to me, you get the bare bones version unless your running on specific intel hardware. AMD and nvidia are not going to be able to do anything with those internal engines to optimise them for their hardware.
 

Silver Wattle

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6nm is just a slightly improved 7nm, it will only be used to reduce costs, not to add more performance, this guy is full of it.