• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

Microsoft staff are openly questioning the value of diversity

Barnabot

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,464
5,046
680
From:
https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/

Some Microsoft employees are openly questioning whether diversity is important, in a lengthy discussion on an internal online messaging board meant for communicating with CEO Satya Nadella.

Two posts on the board criticizing Microsoft diversity initiatives as “discriminatory hiring” and suggesting that women are less suited for engineering roles have elicited more than 800 comments, both affirming and criticizing the viewpoints, multiple Microsoft employees have told Quartz. The posts were written by a female Microsoft program manager. Quartz reached out to her directly for comment, and isn’t making her name public at this point, pending her response.

“Does Microsoft have any plans to end the current policy that financially incentivizes discriminatory hiring practices? To be clear, I am referring to the fact that senior leadership is awarded more money if they discriminate against Asians and white men,” read the original post by the Microsoft program manager on Yammer, a corporate messaging platform owned by Microsoft. The employee commented consistently throughout the thread, making similar arguments. Quartz reviewed lengthy sections of the internal discussion provided by Microsoft employees.

“I have an ever-increasing file of white male Microsoft employees who have faced outright and overt discrimination because they had the misfortune of being born both white and male. This is unacceptable,” the program manager wrote in a comment later. The Microsoft employees who spoke to Quartz said they weren’t aware of any action by the company in response, despite the comments being reported to Microsoft’s human resources department.

When contacted by Quartz, Microsoft pointed to comments by three company officials in the message-board threads. A member of Microsoft’s employee investigations team responded to the initial post in January, writing that the company does not tolerate discrimination of any kind. Another Microsoft staff member, who leads the team that helps the board of directors determine executive pay, explained the diversity-based compensation initiative. “Our board and executive leadership team believe diverse and inclusive teams are good for business and consistent with our mission and inspire-to culture,” she wrote. “Linking compensation to these aspirations is an important demonstration of executive commitment to something we believe strongly in.

“Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy…’”
The internal debate over the merits of diversity comes as Microsoft is grappling with an uproar over allegations of sexism and sexual harassment that some staff said the company hasn’t adequately responded to over the years. It is also a powerful glimpse into internal dissent against efforts by the world’s biggest tech companies to increase the number of women and people of color on staff, in the face of criticism that those groups are underrepresented, especially in the leadership ranks.

The Microsoft author echoes former Google employee James Damore, who in 2017 wrote a memo that went internally viral at Google, leaning on pseudoscience to argue that women aren’t cut out for the tech industry. Damore was fired for breaching the company’s code of conduct amid enormous public and internal controversy, and Google CEO Sundar Pichai wrote in a memo that the firing was due to “advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace.”

Below is a selection of comments from the Microsoft employee, with the capitalization for emphasis in the original comments by the employee:

“Because women used to be actively prohibited from full-time employment many decades ago, there is now the misguided belief that women SHOULD work, and if women AREN’T working, there’s something wrong…. Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy,’ it’s because men and women aren’t identical, and women are much more inclined to gain fulfillment elsewhere.”
“We still lack any empirical evidence that the demographic distribution in tech is rationally and logically detrimental to the success of the business in this industry….We have a plethora of data available that demonstrate women are less likely to be interested in engineering AT ALL than men, and it’s not because of any *ism or *phobia or ‘unconscious bias’- it’s because men and women think very differently from each other, and the specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women. This is an established fact. However, this established fact makes people very uncomfortable, because it suggests that the gender distribution in engineering might not actually be a problem (and thus women can no longer bleat about being victims of sexism in the workplace), these facts are ignored in favor of meaningless platitudes our SLT [senior leadership team] continues to shove down our throats – e.g. ‘We’re not doing enough’ and ‘we clearly have a long way to go.’”
“We MUST immediately cease the practice of attaching financial incentives and performance metrics to ‘diversity hiring’ – as long as we give more money and higher annual reviews explicitly for NOT hiring/promoting white men and Asians, this will continue to be a serious problem at the company.”
One of the posts was written on January 10 and had more than 625 comments, and the other was written on April 4 and had more than 175 comments, according to Microsoft employees who wished to remain anonymous.

There is more coming from that article...

My two cents: Microsoft as a private company can and will hire anyone they want to. Having said that if that part of "discrimination against Asian and white men" is true this is going to give a lot of people a bad taste. Because this is not diversity when you promote it by vilifying a specific group of people because of their skin color.

So what you think, GAF?
 
Last edited:

SurprisedPikachu

Gold Member
Feb 16, 2014
918
1,316
915
Earth
The liberals hate boner for white and asian people is really stupid. With that being said if this can be proven through a government investigation, I would hope that Microsoft would get hit with some serious fines or (which this is much needed anyway) broken up into smaller companies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ownage and pramod

Texas Pride

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
3,007
5,656
665
Texas
I think anytime you're hiring for a quota instead of most qualified you've just discriminated against someone. Everyone has a bias one way or another ingrained in us it's just a human thing to do. Ask yourself something. If you had to have life saving surgery. Would you rather it be done by the most qualified person that would increase your chance of survival or by the guy hired for a diversity quota? If you say diversity you're lying to yourself.

Furthermore if you're not hiring the best you're only hurting the performance of your company in the end.
 
Last edited:

Pagusas

Elden Member
Jun 9, 2006
12,664
4,283
1,685
Prosper, Tx
One day I hope the most capable person is normally chooses for a job and not some metric induced diversity system forcing choices. However I fully understand why today is not that day, I’ve seen first hand disgusting people intentionally avoid a resume because the name didn’t sound like a typical name to them. Some people are gross disgusting human beings and unfortunately keep ruining a lot of the world for everyone. These rules are there to protect us from those people, they don’t work well (if at all) but I understand why they are there.
 
Last edited:

Pejo

Member
Jul 1, 2009
12,156
5,706
1,315
I don't parrot a lot of Jordan Peterson's stuff, but something that really resonated with me was Equality of Opportunity vs. Equality of Outcome.

I think it's great that more PoC and women have been getting opportunities and are gaining interest in STEM stuff. I also think that the best person should be hired for the job, regardless of any demographic.

I've been in enough positions to see that when a person is hired for a job that they shouldn't have (through nepotism or whatever reason), it really ruins the workplace for everyone involved. We need less of that.
 

ZehDon

Member
Jun 13, 2013
3,492
5,099
735
Australia
Ideally, when hiring a new employee, you first establish goals for the role they’ll fulfil. Then, you conduct a hiring process, designed to find the person who best achieves the goals you’ve set out. If your goal is “diversity” - so, “get a black woman”, or at it seems, “don’t get a white man or an Asian” - then that’s what you’ll get - and their role on the team will be “black girl” or “Muslim man” rather than the “engineer”, “UI designer”, or “programmer” that the individual was hoping for. It demeans the people you hire, discriminates against the people you don’t, and leaves you with a second rate team who are viewed by their race, religion or gender first - you know, the things that it’s illegal to discriminate against.
 
Jan 25, 2018
5,459
7,319
700
31
Southeastern USA
It's all a great big scam assholes have concocted as a way to get ahead in the corporate world and basically get money for nothing.

Imagine all the money that will go to waste paying employees that don't need to be there, probably don't know a thing about what they're doing, but they are the correct race and gender and thus untouchable, scientific and technological progress will grind to a halt if this scam is allowed to continue.

A person's race and gender means nothing, do they actually have the skills to do what you want them to do? That is what matters.
 
Mar 26, 2019
48
24
125
Ideally, when hiring a new employee, you first establish goals for the role they’ll fulfil. Then, you conduct a hiring process, designed to find the person who best achieves the goals you’ve set out. If your goal is “diversity” - so, “get a black woman”, or at it seems, “don’t get a white man or an Asian” - then that’s what you’ll get - and their role on the team will be “black girl” or “Muslim man” rather than the “engineer”, “UI designer”, or “programmer” that the individual was hoping for. It demeans the people you hire, discriminates against the people you don’t, and leaves you with a second rate team who are viewed by their race, religion or gender first - you know, the things that it’s illegal to discriminate against.

I had a few black colleagues when I went through grad school who were against affirmative action for this reason, they didn't want to do the work of earning an advanced degree and then wonder if they landed a job because they were considered the best hire, or if a manager thought it would look good to have a black person on the team.

It's all a great big scam assholes have concocted as a way to get ahead in the corporate world and basically get money for nothing.

Imagine all the money that will go to waste paying employees that don't need to be there, probably don't know a thing about what they're doing, but they are the correct race and gender and thus untouchable, scientific and technological progress will grind to a halt if this scam is allowed to continue.

A person's race and gender means nothing, do they actually have the skills to do what you want them to do? That is what matters.

Have you actually seen this happen? People are sometimes hired because for reasons outside their qualifications, but it's not like companies are hiring high school graduates as engineers and scientists.

It's also hard to imagine scientific progress "grinding to a halt." Hiring to meet quotas has worrying consequences, sure, but this is ridiculous.
 
Last edited:

michaelius

Member
Jan 5, 2012
16,113
1,985
935
James Demore 2.0. Let's hope these people don't get fired for "starting a conversation".

Thankfully it's women starting this conversation so she will probably be safe. If it was white male he would be fired on spot the moment whole thing got public.
 

TheGreatYosh

Banned
Jul 19, 2018
2,577
2,468
585
The liberals hate boner for white and asian people is really stupid. With that being said if this can be proven through a government investigation, I would hope that Microsoft would get hit with some serious fines or (which this is much needed anyway) broken up into smaller companies.
It’s not really stupid. We are all told everyone is equal. If you believe this, and most of the people in the tech industry are White men, and Asians. Then the logical conclusion is the companies are racist, sexist. So to not be “racist”, “sexist” they have to discriminate against White men, and Asians.
 

TheGreatYosh

Banned
Jul 19, 2018
2,577
2,468
585
Thankfully it's women starting this conversation so she will probably be safe. If it was white male he would be fired on spot the moment whole thing got public.
Maybe, didn’t a black lady get fired from Google for saying something controversial/truthful?
 

petran79

Banned
Sep 17, 2012
10,406
1,800
910
I think anytime you're hiring for a quota instead of most qualified you've just discriminated against someone. Everyone has a bias one way or another ingrained in us it's just a human thing to do. Ask yourself something. If you had to have life saving surgery. Would you rather it be done by the most qualified person that would increase your chance of survival or by the guy hired for a diversity quota? If you say diversity you're lying to yourself.

Furthermore if you're not hiring the best you're only hurting the performance of your company in the end.


Problem is that hiring with quotas usually leads that workforce to low skill jobs, without many choices. And even if they are hired in higher ranked jobs, they are just reduced to making photocopies or bringing coffee
 

Barnabot

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,464
5,046
680
It’s not really stupid. We are all told everyone is equal. If you believe this, and most of the people in the tech industry are White men, and Asians. Then the logical conclusion is the companies are racist, sexist. So to not be “racist”, “sexist” they have to discriminate against White men, and Asians.
"Fighting racism with more racism. That will teach everyone how woke we are". That's the Disneyland of double standards.
 

TheGreatYosh

Banned
Jul 19, 2018
2,577
2,468
585
"Fighting racism with more racism. That will teach everyone how woke we are". That's the Disneyland of double standards.
They are fighting reality with racism, sexism. White men, and Asians are just disproportionately suited for that field. They are discriminating against White men, and Asians to perpetuate the fantasy that everyone is equal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: appaws

TheGreatYosh

Banned
Jul 19, 2018
2,577
2,468
585
Problem is that hiring with quotas usually leads that workforce to low skill jobs, without many choices. And even if they are hired in higher ranked jobs, they are just reduced to making photocopies or bringing coffee
I’m not hating on them. That’s a come up. I wouldn’t mind getting payed good money to make photocopies, and bring coffee.
 
  • Like
Reactions: petran79

Tygeezy

Member
Sep 28, 2018
1,115
1,114
465
It looks like it isn't just our friends at google that are woke and tripping over themselves to hire anything that isn't white, or asian males. How long will this continue before there people say enough is enough and go back to just hiring who is the best fit for the job?

"Two posts on the board criticizing Microsoft diversity initiatives as “discriminatory hiring” and suggesting that women are less suited for engineering roles have elicited more than 800 comments, both affirming and criticizing the viewpoints, multiple Microsoft employees have told Quartz. The posts were written by a female Microsoft program manager. Quartz reached out to her directly for comment, and isn’t making her name public at this point, pending her response. "

"
Does Microsoft have any plans to end the current policy that financially incentivizes discriminatory hiring practices? To be clear, I am referring to the fact that senior leadership is awarded more money if they discriminate against Asians and white men,” read the original post by the Microsoft program manager on Yammer, a corporate messaging platform owned by Microsoft. The employee commented consistently throughout the thread, making similar arguments. Quartz reviewed lengthy sections of the internal discussion provided by Microsoft employees.

"“I have an ever-increasing file of white male Microsoft employees who have faced outright and overt discrimination because they had the misfortune of being born both white and male. This is unacceptable,” the program manager wrote in a comment later. The Microsoft employees who spoke to Quartz said they weren’t aware of any action by the company in response, despite the comments being reported to Microsoft’s human resources department. "

https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/
 
Oct 26, 2018
17,536
24,387
795
Nobody brings up diversity
- Medicine (especially high up stuff like surgeons)
- Lawyers/legal
- Pilots
- Engineering/architecture
- Anything to do with entertainment (athletes, actors, singers etc...)
- Crappy blue collar jobs
- Well paid blue collar jobs (work on an oil rig kind of stuff)
- Jobs considered risky or scummy...... miner, garbageman, government job dude with the leaf blower, plumber with a dirty van and wearing ass crack overalls
- Low paid minimum wage kinds of jobs (the mall, fast food etc...)

Jobs people whine about diversity quotas
- That middle/upper middle/business casual office job
 
Last edited:

TheGreatYosh

Banned
Jul 19, 2018
2,577
2,468
585
Nobody brings up diversity
- Medicine (especially high up stuff like surgeons)
- Lawyers/legal
- Pilots
- Engineering/architecture
- Anything to do with entertainment (athletes, actors, singers etc...)
- Crappy blue collar jobs
- Well paid blue collar jobs (work on an oil rig kind of stuff)
- Jobs considered risky or scummy...... miner, garbageman, government job dude with the leaf blower, plumber with a dirty van and wearing ass crack overalls
- Low paid minimum wage kinds of jobs (the mall, fast food etc...)

Jobs people whine about diversity quotas
- That middle/upper middle/business casual office job
They are with air traffic controllers. https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/06...ontrollers-based-on-diversity-not-talent/amp/
 

infinitys_7th

Gold Member
Oct 1, 2006
12,325
22,363
1,885
The Microsoft employees who spoke to Quartz said they weren’t aware of any action by the company in response, despite the comments being reported to Microsoft’s human resources department.

God, I despise HR. It is like a ministry of a truth. It's remarkable that a type of job that attracts people without real skills has so much control over companies, the weeds strangling the roses.
 
Jan 25, 2018
5,459
7,319
700
31
Southeastern USA
Have you actually seen this happen? People are sometimes hired because for reasons outside their qualifications, but it's not like companies are hiring high school graduates as engineers and scientists.

It's also hard to imagine scientific progress "grinding to a halt." Hiring to meet quotas has worrying consequences, sure, but this is ridiculous.

Well, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but the point is it's going to needlessly muck up the works, a lot of money will go to waste.
 

Papa

Banned
Apr 25, 2009
23,408
47,519
1,610
He/him
“Quartz reached out to her directly for comment, and isn’t making her name public at this point, pending her response.”

Anyone else read this as a threat?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kenpachii

Teletraan1

Member
May 17, 2012
8,116
8,233
805
Canada
Hopefully they can identify the people involved, call their notes a manifesto, discredit them even if their information is correct and make those people unemployable through a media campaign. Wouldn't want this to hurt the mega corporation's image. Everyone knows diversity of immutable characteristics is strength even if everyone thinks the same, except for asians and white men, fuck those people.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Papa

Papa

Banned
Apr 25, 2009
23,408
47,519
1,610
He/him
Hopefully they can identify the people involved, call their notes a manifesto, discredit them even if their information is correct and make those people unemployable through a media campaign. Wouldn't want this to hurt the mega corporation's image. Everyone knows diversity of immutable characteristics is strength even if everyone thinks the same, except for asians and white men, fuck those people.

They would just label it pseudoscience like they did in this article.

"The Microsoft author echoes former Google employee James Damore, who in 2017 wrote a memo that went internally viral at Google, leaning on pseudoscience to argue that women aren’t cut out for the tech industry."

Even though a number of academics like Debra Soh actually said the science was solid, but ya know, germalists know better.
 

AmaiMask

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
181
179
390
As I've been saying for a while now, SJW's entire philosophy is built around hatred for white society. "Diversity" is nothing but a sweet sounding declaration of war against whites. SJWs' don't care about unity, they merely wish to usurp the power they perceive whites as having and taking it for themselves. SJWs are self-righteous, two-faced zealots that need to be rebuked by western society.
 
Apr 19, 2019
9,180
15,106
780
Away with the fairies
Anybody who didn't see this coming must be really young.

SJW outrage culture was a fad. Like all fads, it wears off over time and disappears. Usually the fad is replaced by something new or the opposite from what the fad usually was.

War culture is replaced by anti-war.
Anti-gay is replaced by pro-gay
Sjw outrage culture replaced by nobody giving a fuck and being bored to tears from listening to some fat dyke moan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oagboghi2 and Papa

transformer

Member
Nov 5, 2013
765
703
600
Diversity is important. However, one needs to worry about how "diversity" is defined and ensure that systemic discrimination doesn't occur in the name of "diversity". There are many layers to diversity (e.g. skill set, knowledge base, culture, gender, race, etc.). If viewed holistically, diversity can factor in the hiring process in a positive manner. However, hiring a lesser qualified candidate to hit a quota related to one metric of diversity is probably the wrong way to go about it.
 

Papa

Banned
Apr 25, 2009
23,408
47,519
1,610
He/him
Diversity is important. However, one needs to worry about how "diversity" is defined and ensure that systemic discrimination doesn't occur in the name of "diversity". There are many layers to diversity (e.g. skill set, knowledge base, culture, gender, race, etc.). If viewed holistically, diversity can factor in the hiring process in a positive manner. However, hiring a lesser qualified candidate to hit a quota related to one metric of diversity is probably the wrong way to go about it.

Agree on skill set and knowledge. Am yet to see evidence for diversity of culture, gender or race being anything but irrelevant attributes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DeepEnigma

appaws

Banned
Jan 31, 2008
3,278
2,484
1,335
Taylorsville, Ky!
Nobody brings up diversity
- Medicine (especially high up stuff like surgeons)
- Lawyers/legal
- Pilots
- Engineering/architecture
- Anything to do with entertainment (athletes, actors, singers etc...)
- Crappy blue collar jobs
- Well paid blue collar jobs (work on an oil rig kind of stuff)
- Jobs considered risky or scummy...... miner, garbageman, government job dude with the leaf blower, plumber with a dirty van and wearing ass crack overalls
- Low paid minimum wage kinds of jobs (the mall, fast food etc...)

Jobs people whine about diversity quotas
- That middle/upper middle/business casual office job

You are wrong about law. it's a constant from law school admissions up through and including partner hires at the swankiest firms. A black or hispanic law school applicant is tremendously favored over a white or asian. If they make it through and pass the bar (which they fail disproportionately) they are the subjects of intense bidding by firms who are desperate to find any quality minority lawyers. Ditto at partnership time, where any white male will be passed over in favor of a woman or minority. They would pass over Clarence Darrow himself if there was an associate who was half-Filipino or anything that could statistically be counted as a minority.

And no, this is not sour grapes and I have never worked in private law or been passed over for any position.
 
Last edited:

ssolitare

Manbaby: The Member
Jan 12, 2009
17,120
2,017
1,180
Related:


Diversity is obviously the answer!

Well that's 60g's a year in Portland, that's nothing. You can't even support a small family off 90k. So they definitely need to reach out to everyone if they can't pull due to the salary.
 
Last edited:

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
8,597
9,403
940
Diversity of thought is a positive within reason. By within reason, I mean Sony should probably not hire console developers who believe a blu ray disc will make the PS5 an Atari 2600.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: DeepEnigma

appaws

Banned
Jan 31, 2008
3,278
2,484
1,335
Taylorsville, Ky!
I am sure without the police Chicago will have less crime :messenger_grinning:

I always love to point out the irony of the BLM and other leftist's position...the pullback of police hurts primarily minority people. Crime going up on the South Side is not hurting the rich people on in Downers Grove and South Holland. It hurts the innocent black poor who have to bear the brunt of gangs and drug dealers.