• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Game Dev Hardware Microsoft Exec Bill Stillwell: “We have a better console; we’re not worried about power”

Dnice1

Member
Mar 31, 2020
200
579
330
I see this posted every. single. time.

Can someone care to explain to me when power ever mattered?

 

Zathalus

Member
Jul 16, 2020
963
2,309
435
- a two teraflop difference (at ps5's best case scenario, with a limited cpu clock while this happens), is a bigger difference than two teraflops on previous architecture.
- exactly the same for compute units

A two teraflop difference in absolute terms is indeed greater for the new consoles. But you don't judge the difference in performance between something in absolute terms, you compare them relatively to each other.

Relatively the difference in processing power between the PS5 and Xbox Series X is much smaller then the relative difference in power between the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X.

As for compute units, you do realize that the number of compute units is only one factor in scaling GPU performance right? Clock speeds matter as well, just compare a Geforce 1060 to a Geforce 980ti, the later has 44 SM units vs the 20 SM units on the 1060, which is a difference of 120%, but the 980ti is less then 20% faster due to the way lower clock speed.

The exact same logic applies to the Xbox Series X vs PS5, yes the Xbox has roughly 45% more compute units, but the PS5 is clocked 22% higher. Thus the relative performance difference between the GPU Tflop is 18%.
 

martino

Member
Apr 25, 2013
6,842
4,841
810
France




and price is an even more important to have at launch
(and why there is this dance around reveal of it for both)
 
Jun 13, 2020
1,761
3,375
400
A two teraflop difference in absolute terms is indeed greater for the new consoles. But you don't judge the difference in performance between something in absolute terms, you compare them relatively to each other.

Relatively the difference in processing power between the PS5 and Xbox Series X is much smaller then the relative difference in power between the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X.

As for compute units, you do realize that the number of compute units is only one factor in scaling GPU performance right? Clock speeds matter as well, just compare a Geforce 1060 to a Geforce 980ti, the later has 44 SM units vs the 20 SM units on the 1060, which is a difference of 120%, but the 980ti is less then 20% faster due to the way lower clock speed.

The exact same logic applies to the Xbox Series X vs PS5, yes the Xbox has roughly 45% more compute units, but the PS5 is clocked 22% higher. Thus the relative performance difference between the GPU Tflop is 18%.
I can compare either relative between ps5 and series x, or/and relative to previous generations power difference. which is exactly what I initially wrote.

and to invalidate what you are saying, ps4 had a larger comparative % difference to og xbone tflops than xbone x to ps4pro,
yet the outputed difference was larger in the latter pair. and thats within same basic architecture, but with different targets.

oh, and for some reason I cant understand, all people quoting me are supposing that ps5 can run max cpu clock at the same time it runs max gpu clock.
this is a fundamental mistake all of you are making. why is that?
 
Last edited:

Gavon West

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,183
2,489
405
Only because MS couldn't keep up. They both actually want the same things to be honest.
No. This isn't accurate. If you read the official interviews, Microsoft and Sony have been on different trajectories for a while now. Neither company gives fuck all about console warriors and their petty plastic wars. Microsoft wants you playing their games through subs and multiple devices. Sony is way more traditional. That much is certainly clear. Baseline goals; to make money is the same, yes. But how that happens are two different ball parks for both companies.
PS5 SSD says hi.
Why, tho??? Its a GPU conversation. Not one about load times... TF?
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkMage619

SkylineRKR

Member
Jun 22, 2011
11,539
2,812
970
Holland
it's an argument that will help them to be less outpaced though.

They could opt for less power and beat Sony in price. I think thats key. Ofcourse, the games dictate your success, and Sony was busy building an empire of first party studios since the late PS2 years. Microsoft can't match that and they wasted time actually closing and releasing studios to focus on their 3 pillars.

But a cheaper Xbox, with a compelling Gamepass probably sells more and gains more subs.
 
Last edited:

DonkeyKong

Member
Mar 14, 2016
312
342
390
The Series X is not going to outsell the PS5, despite being more powerful. I'll gladly eat crow if it does.
I agree, there is no way the X will outsell the PS5 worldwide no matter how great it is, it maybe has fighting chance in the UK/USA but worldwide no chance
 

Zathalus

Member
Jul 16, 2020
963
2,309
435
I can compare either relative between ps5 and series x, or/and relative to previous generations power difference. which is exactly what I initially wrote.

and to invalidate what you are saying, ps4 had a larger comparative % difference to og xbone tflops than xbone x to ps4pro,
yet the outputed difference was larger in the latter pair. and thats within same basic architecture, but with different targets.

The OG Xbox and PS4 are closer in performance for what they target then the latter consoles. No massive RAM amount difference and the RAM bandwidth difference is offset by being only at 900p and the ESRAM. The OG Xbox also had a 10% more powerful CPU. The newer Xbox One X had 50% more RAM at a 50% higher bandwidth to boot on top of the 40% more powerful GPU and 10% more powerful CPU. Which makes a much bigger difference at the 1440p-4k range then the 1080p-900p of the base consoles. The PS4 Pro GPU is basically bandwidth starved for 4k, and for good reason, it was never designed to output native 4k images.

oh, and for some reason I cant understand, all people quoting me are supposing that ps5 can run max cpu clock at the same time it runs max gpu clock.
this is a fundamental mistake all of you are making. why is that?

Because both the lead architect and developers have said it can sustain that frequency if need be?
 
  • Like
Reactions: chilichote

Gavon West

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,183
2,489
405
I agree, there is no way the X will outsell the PS5 worldwide no matter how great it is, it maybe has fighting chance in the UK/USA but worldwide no chance
Are you guys being willfully daft in this thread?? Microsoft clearly, CLEARLY isn't chasing after console sales like Sony. PS is Sony's bread and butter for the entire company. Xbox is a platform that expands well beyond just consoles. Their literally making their services available to multiple devices through a subscription service and cloud/streaming, not just console.

This "console sales war" you guys continue to conjur up is quite literally a figment of your own imaginations. It hasn't been just about consoles sales for years. Even Sony is going PC and steam now. How people miss all this information that's been touted for years is incredibly confusing.
 
Last edited:

NullZ3r0

Banned
Jun 8, 2017
1,620
3,974
525
PS3 outsold 360, did it not? Anyway, there is virtually no chance of SXS outselling PS5 lifetime when you take Europe and Asia in to consideration, as I'm sure you know.
You assume that trends and tastes will not change. Of that were the case we'd still just have Sega and Nintendo.
 
Aug 28, 2019
4,653
9,550
650
www.instagram.com
XBO to PS4 "Power" Differential: 40%

PS4P to XBO-X "Power" Differential: ~43%

PS5 to Series X "Power" Differential: 18%

One thing everyone using these percentages needs to keep in mind is that these are all on different architectures, so if you're looking at next-gen differentials compared to base last gen, you would get something more along the lines of 31.5% going by the old architecture (RDNA being 50% better than GCN, RDNA2 being perhaps 25% over RDNA1 (AMD gave 50% improved IPC on RDNA2 but doubtful that results in 50% efficiency gain except maybe on 7nm EUV which neither system seems to be using).

The other, more important thing, though, is that thanks to modern-day programming techniques, frontend architectural improvements of RDNA2, more advanced algorithms, specially customized hardware to suit said modern-day programming and algorithm techniques and overall improvements in system I/O pipeline thanks to use of storage of SSDs, you WILL be able to "do more" per FLOP with next-gen systems than you could ever do with XBO and PS4, or even the mid-gen upgrades.

This is where specific system customizations will make a difference, and both systems have VERY tailored customizations that will give them an edge in certain areas. We already know of Sony's by and large, MS's are more mysterious ATM but Hot Chips should hopefully bring more of theirs to light. I think the main takeaway is that both systems have customizations that will help them "punch above their weight", and people getting caught up in dick-measuring contests over their system doing it "moreso" (with there being no proof of this actually being the case because you'd need full disclosure from all parties to do accurate comparisons) are just doing it to shake pom-poms at this point.

Because both the lead architect and developers have said it can sustain that frequency if need be?

PS5 can sustain max clocks for CPU & GPU simultaneously during processing loads that actually require that amount of power. Otherwise the question has consistently been what type of work loads generate a power excess to tip the budget into requiring a power downshift of the CPU or GPU, and how big the downshift would actually be.

Cerny's brief example was a best-case estimate, and we also didn't get an estimate of time duration of heavy workloads the CPU and GPU can handle while at max clock before needing to bring down the power load. For example would a continuous stream of AVX 128 instructions that, equal to a smaller load of AVX 256 instructions, could cause the same scenario Cerny described in the presentation? All things being equal, both scenarios would eventually cause the same situation to trigger WRT power budget being exceeded, but then say a big stream of additional sort of instructions are being processed for the game logic, could that actually bring the percentage drop down lower than Cerny's quoted amount (which again was a best-case scenario)?

We don't have clear answers on this and I think there's kind of a reason why they didn't elaborate in further detail on these kind of scenarios. One being because they were pressed for time, but the other being perhaps due to unsavory scenarios and outcomes needing to be openly acknowledged. If the clocks could be sustained at max level the vast majority of the time on work loads requiring max clocks, then the clocks could have simply been locked to a fixed frequency.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jigga117
Jun 13, 2020
1,761
3,375
400
Because both the lead architect and developers have said it can sustain that frequency if need be?
no they didnt.
a) "we expect gpu to spend most of its time close or at 2.23mHz"
b) "cpu, with this strategy we can run it as high as 3.5gHz, in fact it spends most of its time in that freq"



of course we are talking about a boosting solution via variable clocks here, so anybody who can think can understand that a + b cannot continuously happen together.
cerny continues:
"that doesn't mean that all games will be running at 3.5gHz and 2.3gHz. when that worst case game arrives (aka a game with high demands) it will run at a lower clockspeed"

specially bookmarked for you:

we still have no idea how much lower will it be, and cerny of course did not give any specifics.
devs working at ps5 games right now do know, but they are under some kind of NDA.
DF mentioned that devs they talked to just choose the profile where cpu is low so that they can get gpu high.
how much is this in terms of Hz? we still have no clue.
but for sure, it ain't 2.23 combined with 3.5
 
Last edited:

Jigga117

Member
Aug 26, 2019
734
736
370
no they didnt.
a) "we expect gpu to spend most of its time close or at 2.23mHz"
b) "cpu, with this strategy we can run it as high as 3.5gHz, in fact it spends most of its time in that freq"



of course we are talking about a boosting solution via variable clocks here, so anybody who can think can understand that a + b cannot continuously happen together.
cerny continues:
"that doesn't mean that all games will be running at 3.5gHz and 2.3gHz. when that worst case game arrives (aka a game with high demands) it will run at a lower clockspeed"

specially bookmarked for you:

we still have no idea how much lower will it be, and cerny of course did not give any specifics.
devs working at ps5 games right now do know, but they are under some kind of NDA.
DF mentioned that devs they talked to just choose the profile where cpu is low so that they can get gpu high.
how much is this in terms of Hz? we still have no clue.
but for sure, it ain't 2.23 combined with 3.5

Been pointing this out since day one of this video. I still don't see how today people think anything is locked on an advertised variable clock system for cpu/gpu. This shouldn't be difficult to understand
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheGreatWhiteShark

gatti-man

Member
Aug 30, 2010
8,384
462
1,025
42
Right. But what’s the point of MS having this solid piece of hardware and no talent to push it? I’ll stan all day for the new Xbox as a better piece of hardware it means dick all if Sony has all the art talent and programming talent. Nothing I’ve seen from MS can’t be done on PS5. That’s why these hardware discussions are getting so many eye rolls.
 
Jun 13, 2020
1,761
3,375
400
Been pointing this out since day one of this video. I still don't see how today people think anything is locked on an advertised variable clock system for cpu/gpu. This shouldn't be difficult to understand
I thought so too, but I already had three people telling me to go back to school, wondering what I sniff etc, and counting
 
Last edited:

DonkeyKong

Member
Mar 14, 2016
312
342
390
Are you guys being willfully daft in this thread?? Microsoft clearly, CLEARLY isn't chasing after console sales like Sony. PS is Sony's bread and butter for the entire company. Xbox is a platform that expands well beyond just consoles. Their literally making their services available to multiple devices through a subscription service and cloud/streaming, not just console.

This "console sales war" you guys continue to conjur up is quite literally a figment of your own imaginations. It hasn't been just about consoles sales for years. Even Sony is going PC and steam now. How people miss all this information that's been touted for years is incredibly confusing.

I agree there is no "console sales" war for next gen, MS are obviously going a different way (i've mentioned that in previous posts), but I doubt that fact will stop the tiresome monthly sales threads.
 

martino

Member
Apr 25, 2013
6,842
4,841
810
France
They could opt for less power and beat Sony in price. I think thats key. Ofcourse, the games dictate your success, and Sony was busy building an empire of first party studios since the late PS2 years. Microsoft can't match that and they wasted time actually closing and releasing studios to focus on their 3 pillars.

But a cheaper Xbox, with a compelling Gamepass probably sells more and gains more subs.

all point to they are aiming for both with also possibly content down the road.
 
Last edited:

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
47,741
14,854
2,000
I agree there is no "console sales" war for next gen, MS are obviously going a different way (i've mentioned that in previous posts), but I doubt that fact will stop the tiresome monthly sales threads.

This is what MS wants you to believe. They'd actually like it if the Xbox Series X and S both combined sold 100 Million units. Don't think they don't "actually" care if their hardware is selling or not.
 

jadedm17

Member
Sep 24, 2009
3,997
502
1,165
Florida
The power is fine, everyone knows this. It's games that they need to start talking about.

Quoting for emphasis.

I love Xbox and the 360 - and its controller - cemented my gaming love, but I find little to no reason to buy the next Xbox.

(Note : I find gaming to be one of the most cost-effective hobbies you can have so Gamepass doesn't interest me, I'm fine buying games outright.)