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Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales - Digital Foundry Tech Review - Welcome To The Next Generation

Venom Snake

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Thanks for the kind words.

I don't know how long you have been on these boards but the PS warriors do have an agenda to try making their platform appear superior to every platform (PC included) by leveraging the 1st party exclusives. This game is an example of that.
You can't stop people from being people. If we were guided in our lifes by pure logic or flawless mathematics, we would not have much room for emotions and common joy. It is always some combination of both, where ratios are determined arbitrarily by ourselves.
It is worth expressing your own views, but trying to influence the views of others does not always bring the expected results.

As you may have noticed it works both ways, the question is, is it beneficial enough to keep it going?
 

Vick

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It looks so good.
To be fair, outside of DF coverage, i have yet to see something that truly blows me away from Insomniac on PS5, and it's probably due to the fact i am playing the original right now. Guess i'll have to wait for SM2.

A good shot with dof can add so much to a photo too. Very impressive what Insomniac is doing on their first outing. They are gonna make a killer sequel for sure.
Completely agree, and since i've played R&C Insomniac totally won me over with their implementation of DoF in-game, it was superb. Check the elements in the foreground:









And i love how it is applied for every single element in the game outside of Spider-Man himself, making therefore views like this possible:



I haven't seen ray traced reflections this good anywhere before. How is this possible in real time?
Because of very smart compromises, like lower polygon count on models, downgraded shaders, different kind of shadows.. but in movement it's really hard to spot these differences and that's what make it such a clever implementation.

You can't stop people from being people. If we were guided in our lifes by pure logic or flawless mathematics, we would not have much room for emotions and common joy. It is always some combination of both, where ratios are determined arbitrarily by ourselves.
It is worth expressing your own views, but trying to influence the views of others does not always bring the expected results.

As you may have noticed it works both ways, the question is, is it beneficial enough to keep it going?
Very wise words, which i'm confidend you would have addressed thowards someone else if you knew the character any better, or how many times he's been completely wrong while engaging in a petty matter in discussions very unfitting for anyone past over his teens.
Seeing him pretending to be a sort of impartial, paladin of justice and truth is truly laughable.
 

VFXVeteran

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Very wise words, which i'm confidend you would have addressed thowards someone else if you knew the character any better, or how many times he's been completely wrong while engaging in a petty matter in discussions very unfitting for anyone past over his teens.
Seeing him pretending to be a sort of impartial, paladin of justice and truth is truly laughable.

I hear this alot from Sony warriors about me being completely wrong..about graphics tech? The crux of my arguments coming from you guys stem around mitigating the hype around your baseless claims of ps exclusives supreriority in all forms of graphics with 0 evidence to justify the claim. I then challenge you with comparisons of techniques with vivid detail on how your claim is objectively false. You then move to personal attacks (me being banned on other sites) and move the goalpost from the original argument. Then you go around telling others that I'm completely wrong about....? Have you ever find me wrong about my own craft? I have never seen a single person call me on something specific to graphics techniques that I've been wrong about.
 
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Vick

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I hear this alot from Sony warriors about me being completely wrong..about graphics tech? The crux of my arguments coming from you guys stem around mitigating the hype around your baseless claims of ps exclusives supreriority in all forms of graphics with 0 evidence to justify the claim.
How can it be a baseless claim when it's shared by the public opinion and among people working in the industry in the first place?

Why do you think Dan Lowe, a man who worked for Ubisoft, Visceral and Motive (and now hired by Santa Monica) on series like Far Cry, Watch Dogs or Star War would want to go on record for saying:

"So i posted on twitter earlier today that whenever naughty dog puts out a gameplay trailer, a lot of other developers will kind of take a look at that to then sort of really go frame by frame go through with a fine-tooth comb to try and sort of figure out how exactly they did it, and this is especially the case with animators"

Is it because they do special things, or is it because what they do is completely in line with other third party developers?

Tell me a single game with the animation blending of Naughty Dog titles, while retaining a ridiculously low latency.



Tell me a single game in which every single shader in the game no matter how relevant reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters. Tell me a single game with a comparable dynamic global illumination. Tell me a single game with a comparabe SSS on vegetation. Tell me a single game with soft-body dynamics on charachters with muscle simulations like forming double chins, bending noses etc. Tell me a single game with comparable physics animations:



Tell me a single game in which all sort of techniques are blended into one single title capable of going from interiors to this:



In the blink of an eye.

And i wish the majority of the other things i've listed were displayable in screeshots like these:

Which are all in-game so don't start with your typical "photo-mode" excuse, first person shots are taken by simply aiming with the HS39 with no HUD, or by playing with the camera.










































Or these:































Or these:



























And with titles like The Order: 1886, Killzone: Shadow Fall, Infamous: Second Son, Driveclub, Shadow of the Colossus, Days Gone, Gran Turismo Sport, Ghost of Tsushima or The Last of Us: Part II and a potential of 25000+ pictures for Uncharted 4 alone i coud go on forever.

Because i am not going to open a YT channel just to convince someone so obviously invested in his thousands dollars worth of equipment.

And this is not true for Naughty Dog only, do your research about what ICE team is and what does that means for shared knowledge among first party studios. Do your research about the ever going rivalry between them all.

And this has been going for decades, you pretend there were wet shaders on characters before Drake's Fortune, pretend there are games with better sand and fire simulation than U3, pretend there are games with PBR and SSS on par with The Order, pretend there are games with weather on par with Driveclub, pretend there are games with real time switch to snow environments or ground level shadowing like in Days Gone, pretend Guerrilla Games are a technically average studio and didn't came up with shit like this in 2008 with 512mb of RAM..




Now please go tell some other gullible poor bastard how Baldur's Gate 3 is the most impressive game ever..
Or how PS5 will not match PC graphics from two years ago.. or how Horizon Forbidden West is going to look worse than the first one..
 
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VFXVeteran

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How can it be a baseless claim when it's shared by the public opinion and among people working in the industry in the first place?

Why do you think Dan Lowe, a man who worked for Ubisoft, Visceral and Motive (and now hired by Santa Monica) on series like Far Cry, Watch Dogs or Star War would want to go on record for saying:

"So i posted on twitter earlier today that whenever naughty dog puts out a gameplay trailer, a lot of other developers will kind of take a look at that to then sort of really go frame by frame go through with a fine-tooth comb to try and sort of figure out how exactly they did it, and this is especially the case with animators"

Dude, are you serious? LOL!

Brb with my rebuttal..

Tell me a single game in which every single shader in the game no matter how relevant reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters. Tell me a single game with a comparable dynamic global illumination. Tell me a single game with a comparabe SSS on vegetation.

Let's address this first.

EVERY single last gen game does this. It's AUTOMATIC. You turn on AO and the algorithm does it's thing. In PC land, the AO is MORE accurate than any of the PS4 games that have come out. ANY OF THEM! The old crude SSAO algorithm has SEVERAL artifacts and misses small geometry - which is why RAY-TRACING fixes it. Guess what? Load up Control and Metro and watch the RT AO FIX these artifacts! I can find oodles of inaccurate SSAO in every single PS game to date. Read up on HBAO and then read up on SSAO. I'm sure you can gather that HBAO is significantly better.

There isn't a SINGLE EXCLUSIVE PS GAME that uses "dynamic GI". Do you even know how it works??

The SSS on vegetation is not the real SSS! It's a fake inverse normal diffuse illumination trick that -- guess what -- EVERY company adopted years ago! What are you talking about?

You have told yourself what you want to believe despite the facts. Typical of a PS warrior that wants their magical box to be superior to all others no matter how weak it is GPU-wise.
 
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jzosa

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Thanks for the kind words.

I don't know how long you have been on these boards but the PS warriors do have an agenda to try making their platform appear superior to every platform (PC included) by leveraging the 1st party exclusives. This game is an example of that.









All blatant bias since WD:L reflections look a lot closer to real CG than MM does. And that's a fact that can't be refuted.
You need to relax.

If you read what they said, it's their eyes. What if they don't play on PC? That would mean what they said is true. What they all mentioned is what they've seen, and that may not apply to everything out there. It's what they see and think. There's nothing wrong with that.

You don't need to constantly go into PS threads and bring your PCMR and industry expertise into them just to get into arguments. This thread is about Spider-Man: Miles Morales, not Watch Dogs: Legion or any comparisons between any game.

If you wanna substantiate your claims about WD:L's RT being better, then make a thread about it and prove it there. This isn't a comparison thread.
 

Vick

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Dude, are you serious? LOL!
Here, the typical 5 years old..

Let's address this first.

EVERY single last gen game does this. It's AUTOMATIC. You turn on AO and the algorithm does it's thing. In PC land, the AO is MORE accurate than any of the PS4 games that have come out. ANY OF THEM! The old crude SSAO algorithm has SEVERAL artifacts and misses small geometry - which is why RAY-TRACING fixes it. Guess what? Load up Control and Metro and watch the RT AO FIX these artifacts! I can find oodles of inaccurate SSAO in every single PS game to date. Read up on HBAO and then read up on SSAO. I'm sure you can gather that HBAO is significantly better.
Man... this is not going to be pleasant. You're completely clueless, as expected.
You wish i was talking about ambient occlusion (which, by the way, it's artifact free even in PS3 games like TLoU or Uncharted 3 in case you weren't aware), what i am referring to is what DF address here (time-stamped):



This is true for every single shader in the game, no matter how small or insignificant, it will react. They first implemented it in TLoU on PS3, then Uncharted 4, now TLoU2.

There isn't a SINGLE EXCLUSIVE PS GAME that uses "dynamic GI". Do you even know how it works??
PS exclusive were using dynamic GI even on PS3.. how can you be so out of touch with reality and still act the way you do?
It's baffling, honestly.























































This game lasted me 80+hours on Grounded and you can turn on the flashlight in any moment of the game, so am i serious when i say that i could post an infinite amount of pictures. Even by slightly moving the flashlight the entire room change the way it's lit and as i said, i'm not going to open a YT channel just to prove your ridiculous claims wrong so believe me when i say it's breathtaking stuff in motion.

The SSS on vegetation is not the real SSS! It's a fake inverse normal diffuse illumination trick that -- guess what -- EVERY company adopted years ago! What are you talking about?
Yeah, just like it was fake in The Order as you were claiming in the other Thread before being proven wrong, right?
You truly are a pathological liar.





You have told yourself what you want to believe despite the facts. Typical of a PS warrior that wants their magical box to be superior to all others no matter how weak it is GPU-wise.
Yeah.. whatever.
Now please "go tell some other gullible poor bastard how Baldur's Gate 3 is the most impressive game ever.. or how PS5 will not match PC graphics from two years ago.. or how Horizon Forbidden West is going to look worse than the first one.." or go on in making yourself look like a clown by completing to address the other post.
 
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Vick

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If you read what they said, it's their eyes. What if they don't play on PC?
It's not their eyes though, they see how these games often look incredible, but they don't know exactly why. And this is the reason this individual most of the time gets away with his incorrect claims.
Tech savvy people, they are the most impressed by these games.. when they're not so up their PCMR asses to actually try them, at least.

You don't need to constantly go into PS threads and bring your PCMR and industry expertise into them just to get into arguments. This thread is about Spider-Man: Miles Morales, not Watch Dogs: Legion or any comparisons between any game.
He can't. He can't accept that he spent $1.549 for a graphic card alone just to see that there's impressive stuff in exclusive games made for $399 boxes. It's outrageous.
 
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Elcid

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Fidelity mode for sure. Performance makes me nauseous. Just beat the game, what a good fucking game. I am so satisfied with it, has a lot more content than I had anticipated tbh.
 

jzosa

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It's not their eyes though, they see how these games often look incredible, but they don't know exactly why. And this is the reason this individual most of the time gets away with his incorrect claims.
Tech savvy people, they are the most impressed by these games.. when they're not so up their PCMR asses to actually try them, at least.


He can't. He can't accept that he spent $1.549 for a graphic card alone just to see that there's impressive stuff in exclusive games made for $399 boxes. It's outrageous.

I get what you're saying. What I mean is that it's not an agenda to be impressed by something we all see clearly with our own eyes and based on our own opinions, which may not be the same as that of an "expert" as he is, it s still a valid opinion which he does not need to accept and unnecessarily need to attack.

Now if he wants to show the "closer to real CGI" of WD:L, then by all means he's free to do so, since he's the one claiming these are facts. I don't know why it's wrong to be impressed by Spider-Man's RT based on one's own perception.
 
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Azurro

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This is not about the PC vs. console. This is about what's the proper technique that gives the best results.

Also, if you guys can claim "best RT implementation" of all the platforms. I have a right to counter that with valid evidence to point that that's not the case. You have a weird way of taking jabs at the Xbox but hate when I come around with hardware that's superior to the PS5 and you demand me go off and be out of your hair. I would imagine that the Xbox guys don't want you around either.

Of course if your assets are far away and you are developing a Spiderman game, then you prioritise distance over accuracy. He's slinging along buildings in New York, duh, how stupid of a take this is.

You should stop getting triggered by people finding things on console impressive and not fawning over your graphics card because you get stupid. I mean, let me know how your "Horizon Zero Dawn on PC will look better than Forbidden West because settings" prediction is going.
 
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VFXVeteran

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If you read what they said, it's their eyes. What if they don't play on PC? That would mean what they said is true. What they all mentioned is what they've seen, and that may not apply to everything out there. It's what they see and think. There's nothing wrong with that.

There is a LOT wrong with that. If these guys are stating something in their own heads and don't know the reality of the situation, then it's up the forum users to make them see the light. The mere fact that I get so much pushback when I DO show them the light indicates that this isn't some innocent oversight. I'm not that stupid.
 

VFXVeteran

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You should stop getting triggered by people finding things on console impressive and not fawning over your graphics card because you get stupid. I mean, let me know how your "Horizon Zero Dawn on PC will look better than Forbidden West because settings" prediction is going.

It's headed in the right direction from what I'm hearing. FW is a cross-gen game now.. not exclusive to PS5. And we already see the limitations of the consoles in plain sight. They can't even do native 4k/60. Horizon ZD on PC ultra 4k/60FPS won't even run on PS5. I predict the only thing that game will have over the PC version is higher res textures. The 3D features should match what PC is doing over the PS4 - not exceed.

In short, the jury is still out.
 
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It's headed in the right direction from what I'm hearing. FW is a cross-gen game now.. not exclusive to PS5. And we already see the limitations of the consoles in plain sight. They can't even do native 4k/60. Horizon ZD on PC ultra 4k/60FPS won't even run on PS5. I predict the only thing that game will have over the PC version is higher res textures. The 3D features should match what PC is doing over the PS4 - not exceed.

In short, the jury is still out.

Man you are still saying this dumb shit lmao
 
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Vick

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There is a LOT wrong with that. If these guys are stating something in their own heads and don't know the reality of the situation, then it's up the forum users to make them see the light.
I can't believe you really fail to see the irony in what you just said.. lack of any resemblance of self-awareness.

Feel free to continue to "state things which are only in your head while not knowing the reality of the situation and let Forum users make you see the light".
 

VFXVeteran

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One more time to address you and then I'm ignoring your 0 experience developing this stuff and mark you off as a uninformed troll that thinks he knows how this stuff works.

Man... this is not going to be pleasant. You're completely clueless, as expected.
You wish i was talking about ambient occlusion (which, by the way, it's artifact free even in PS3 games like TLoU or Uncharted 3 in case you weren't aware), what i am referring to is what DF address here (time-stamped):


Capsule AO is a crude approximation of AO (it uses geometry representative of capsules instead of actual geometery). Its' NOT used for props and smaller objects like beakers and shits. Look at your own 1st screenshot and look over to the side where you see a metal bar on the table. It's not casting any AO and completely looks flat resting on the white counter top. Only RT will fix this.

This is true for every single shader in the game, no matter how small or insignificant, it will react. They first implemented it in TLoU on PS3, then Uncharted 4, now TLoU2.

This is NOT true at all as I already proved it in your 1st screenshot.

PS exclusive were using dynamic GI even on PS3.. how can you be so out of touch with reality and still act the way you do?
It's baffling, honestly.

This is not true dynamic GI. It's a localized flash light bounce scatter that ONLY works with a flashlight and NO other light sources. I would never call that dynamic GI compared to Metro:Exodus GI that affects the entire scene (i.e. the Sun and local lights). It also only contributes to the illumination portion of the BRDF and not test for ambient shadows itself.

Yeah, just like it was fake in The Order as you were claiming in the other Thread before being proven wrong, right?
You truly are a pathological liar.

I really can't talk to someone who doesn't know anything about graphics programming. That SSS in all of those games are using inverse normal diffuse with SSS mask maps around the ears to "simulate" real SSS. The approximation is nowhere near as accurate as the cinematic quality SSS.

You continuously talk to me like you've developed this stuff. Like you are 100% certain I am wrong. Can you show me a typical pseudo-code on how the inverse normal diffuse algorithm is done? And then can you show me the multiple lobed SSS scatter algorithm? I'm curious since you swear I'm wrong.
 
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Azurro

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It's headed in the right direction from what I'm hearing. FW is a cross-gen game now.. not exclusive to PS5. And we already see the limitations of the consoles in plain sight. They can't even do native 4k/60. Horizon ZD on PC ultra 4k/60FPS won't even run on PS5. I predict the only thing that game will have over the PC version is higher res textures. The 3D features should match what PC is doing over the PS4 - not exceed.

In short, the jury is still out.

Oh my god, this is the best.

And again you wonder why people don't respect you. :)
 

jzosa

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There is a LOT wrong with that. If these guys are stating something in their own heads and don't know the reality of the situation, then it's up the forum users to make them see the light. The mere fact that I get so much pushback when I DO show them the light indicates that this isn't some innocent oversight. I'm not that stupid.

How is it wrong when what they said is, "best I'VE SEEN."? It's what they've seen. The problem here is you can't accept that others may have a different opinion to you.

Make them see the light? What you're some kind of messiah now by being condescending to those who are not experts?

We get it. There are people who like the ps5 rt implementation because its the best THEY'VE seen. If you have something better, then by all means, show everyone.

Don't go into threads about ps games (non-comparison I might add), and downplay everything ps-related when it comes to tech. Don't go into these threads with the intention of riling people.

Maybe you could have shown this better RT, for starters? Instead, you start your engagements using arguments.

You're an industry PROFESSIONAL. ACT LIKE ONE.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Oh my god, this is the best.

And again you wonder why people don't respect you. :)

"FW is a cross-gen game now" - FACT
"They can't even do native 4k/60" - FACT
"I predict the only thing that game will have over the PC version is higher res textures" - Speculation based on limited hardware budget -- FACT. What else would be added to the pipeline that would show a significant visual upgrade?

"The 3D features should match what PC is doing over the PS4 - not exceed. " - Speculation based on limited hardware budget -- FACT. Name some 3d features that would dwarf what's in the PC version of HZD? Better AO than HBAO? RT AO? RT GI? High res shadow maps that have 2x resolution of the PC version? Complete tessellation of the terrain? Multiple scatter SSS on every translucent material? How much of a gap do you think FW is going to be with 3D features over the PC version that can run native 4k?

If you guys removed your biased colored shades, you'd logically be able to make good speculation based on what you already know about the limits to the next-gen hardware (i.e. can't perform with RT very well, has to implement a lot of shortcuts, can't do native 4k/60FPS because the bandwidth is not there, has some of the same enhancements that the PC has had for years like 16xAF, higher res textures, shadow maps, etc..)

Contrary to what you want to believe, the sky is NOT the limit just because it's a 1st party exclusive title. Spiderman MM should have shown you that.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
Here, the typical 5 years old..


Man... this is not going to be pleasant. You're completely clueless, as expected.
You wish i was talking about ambient occlusion (which, by the way, it's artifact free even in PS3 games like TLoU or Uncharted 3 in case you weren't aware), what i am referring to is what DF address here (time-stamped):



This is true for every single shader in the game, no matter how small or insignificant, it will react. They first implemented it in TLoU on PS3, then Uncharted 4, now TLoU2.


PS exclusive were using dynamic GI even on PS3.. how can you be so out of touch with reality and still act the way you do?
It's baffling, honestly.























































This game lasted me 80+hours on Grounded and you can turn on the flashlight in any moment of the game, so am i serious when i say that i could post an infinite amount of pictures. Even by slightly moving the flashlight the entire room change the way it's lit and as i said, i'm not going to open a YT channel just to prove your ridiculous claims wrong so believe me when i say it's breathtaking stuff in motion.


Yeah, just like it was fake in The Order as you were claiming in the other Thread before being proven wrong, right?
You truly are a pathological liar.






Yeah.. whatever.
Now please "go tell some other gullible poor bastard how Baldur's Gate 3 is the most impressive game ever.. or how PS5 will not match PC graphics from two years ago.. or how Horizon Forbidden West is going to look worse than the first one.." or go on in making yourself look like a clown by completing to address the other post.

Man, are you the true VFX guy? You showed so much concrete knowledge there that doesn't sound funny.
 

VFXVeteran

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How is it wrong when what they said is, "best I'VE SEEN."? It's what they've seen. The problem here is you can't accept that others may have a different opinion to you.

PS gamer: "This is the best RT I"ve ever seen in a game.."

Me: "No, there are better implementations from several other games.."

PS gamer: "This is what I've seen, not what you've seen!!"

Me: "OK.. then you are correct.. always... whatever you "see" is always going to be with respect to your own life so I can't refute it.

PS gamer: "Yes, and if I want to go into an Xbox/PC thread and tell those guys that my games look better to me than their games look to them, I'm right and they are wrong!"

Me: "OK. I'll shut up now. Continue to make it a reality for you that what you "see", biased or not, has to be respected and accepted."
 
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Uncharted bunghole
now this is impressive as fuck and now I know why Insomniac say they have one of the better ray tracing programming on consoles, someone posted this on reddit


you can see raytraced reflections in the logo of his suit

What's really neat is that the image is warped due to how the logo bends on the body. I've never seen that before with RT.
 

Edgelord79

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I started up Miles Morales yesterday....

Wow.

Insomniac are truly masters of their craft. I wish the Series X had a game like this at launch to show off its power.
 

jzosa

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PS gamer: "This is the best RT I"ve ever seen in a game.."

Me: "No, there are better implementations from several other games.."

PS gamer: "This is what I've seen, not what you've seen!!"

Me: "OK.. then you are correct.. always... whatever you "see" is always going to be with respect to your own life so I can't refute it.

PS gamer: "Yes, and if I want to go into an Xbox/PC thread and tell those guys that my games look better to me than their games look to them, I'm right and they are wrong!"

Me: "OK. I'll shut up now. Continue to make it a reality for you that what you "see", biased or not, has to be respected and accepted."

I missed the part where that conversation/exchange actually occurred. Again, if you claim that there are games that show the better RT, then you should show an example it.

Don't you think that would have been a better way to engage and begin a conversation?

As far as there opinions go, in the absence of any evidence, you should consider it as valid.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and again, you're the expert so you may be right. . But all we have is your claim that it is better, and unless that claim is substantiated with visual evidence, then it's merely an opinion, just like the others.
 
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VFXVeteran

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I missed the part where that conversation/exchange actually occurred. Again, if you claim that there are games that show the better RT, then you should show an example it.

The entire thread on WD:L reviewed by DF is the perfect example. Why is their hardly anyone in that thread from the Sony force? I would have imagined it would have been 10 pages by now of arguments. It's quiet as a mouse in there. Because the proof is very real, that's why.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and again, you're the expert so you may be right. . But all we have is your claim that it is better, and unless that claim is substantiated with visual evidence, then it's merely an opinion, just like the others.

Visit the DF thread. I even posted in my RT games thread about that DF thread in hopes to strike up conversation,


but it won't happen because the proof is already there that WD:L has the most advanced reflections to date.
 
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VFXVeteran

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What's really neat is that the image is warped due to how the logo bends on the body. I've never seen that before with RT.

That is inherent with the normal map and geometry. The warp will happen automatically because the geometry is warped. That's not a trick.
 
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Shmunter

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now this is impressive as fuck and now I know why Insomniac say they have one of the better ray tracing programming on consoles, someone posted this on reddit


you can see raytraced reflections in the logo of his suit
Class leading stuff for sure. But I die inside each time people choose it over 60fps. 😢
 

VFXVeteran

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I missed the part where that conversation/exchange actually occurred. Again, if you claim that there are games that show the better RT, then you should show an example it.

Don't you think that would have been a better way to engage and begin a conversation?

As far as there opinions go, in the absence of any evidence, you should consider it as valid.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and again, you're the expert so you may be right. . But all we have is your claim that it is better, and unless that claim is substantiated with visual evidence, then it's merely an opinion, just like the others.



Native 4K + RT really surprised me here bearing in mind that a 2080 Ti at launch had to resort to 1080p when RT was enabled.

That sweet console optimization magic.

I doubt we will get the same goodness from 3rd party, or not for a while anyway.

So why can't WDL do native 4K at 30fps again?

Imagine how positive DF's review would be if they weren't MS shills :messenger_winking:

Best RT I've ever seen. Stunning




ALL of these comments are troll bait. Let us pick up these discussions in a RT thread like the one I've made and let's put it to the test.
 
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jzosa

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The entire thread on WD:L reviewed by DF is the perfect example. Why is their hardly anyone in that thread from the Sony force? I would have imagined it would have been 10 pages by now of arguments. It's quiet as a mouse in there. Because the proof is very real, that's why.



Visit the DF thread. I even posted in my RT games thread about that DF thread in hopes to strike up conversation,


but it won't happen because the proof is already there that WD:L has the most advanced reflections to date.

Wait, how is the entire thread on WD:L reviewed by DF a perfect example of this:

PS gamer: "Yes, and if I want to go into an Xbox/PC thread and tell those guys that my games look better to me than their games look to them, I'm right and they are wrong!

When you yourself mentioned there aren't enough Sony fans there?
 

Vick

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One more time to address you and then I'm ignoring your 0 experience developing this stuff and mark you off as a uninformed troll that thinks he knows how this stuff works.
Yeah.. sure. Which just made you realize how clueless you actually were on certain techniques used on some console titles.

Capsule AO is a crude approximation of AO (it uses geometry representative of capsules instead of actual geometery).
Bullshit, it is used in addition to the SSAO (i think it's SSAO at least, it's artifact free anyway). List me another game that does this.

Its' NOT used for props and smaller objects like beakers and shits. Look at your own 1st screenshot and look over to the side where you see a metal bar on the table. It's not casting any AO and completely looks flat resting on the white counter top.
That's why i said "reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters".
If i get closer to that metal bar it will change it's appereance to accomodate my proximity. List me another game that does this for every shader of the game.

This is NOT true at all as I already proved it in your 1st screenshot.
No you absolutely didn't, you said it's not used for props and smaller objects and it's a blatant lie as every single object no matter how small reacts to the character proximity.

This is not true dynamic GI. It's a localized flash light bounce scatter that ONLY works with a flashlight and NO other light sources. I would never call that dynamic GI compared to Metro:Exodus GI that affects the entire screen's light source (i.e. the Sun and local lights).
Oh.. so you need true real-time ray tracing on thousands of dollars worth of PC from 2020 and found in only one title to surpass that "not-true-dynamic-GI" which however looks and behave exactly like a "true-dynamic-GI", on a $399 Console from 2013..

It also only contributes to the illumination portion of the BRDF and not test for ambient shadows itself.
Yeah well, no shit sherlock. The opposite doesn't happen in videogames.

I really can't talk to someone who doesn't know anything about graphics programming. That SSS in all of those games are using inverse normal diffuse with SSS mask maps around the ears to "simulate" real SSS. The approximation is nowhere near as accurate as the cinematic quality SSS.
Yes, and as it was already explained to you in the other Thread, that is not the case with The Order SSS implementation. Or Uncharted 4 vegetation.

You continuously talk to me like you've developed this stuff. Like you are 100% certain I am wrong.
Because you are. You have been wrong so many times on this Forum a list could fill an entire book, so let's just stick to staff you played next time to avoid looking like a clown.

Can you show me a typical pseudo-code on how the inverse normal diffuse algorithm is done? And then can you show me the multiple lobed SSS scatter algorithm? I'm curious since you swear I'm wrong.
No because it's not my job, all i can do is modeling in ZBrush and paint 2D textures. What i do though is reporting things found in some videogames and some videogames only, things you claim being common for every developer on PC, which is bullshit.

Now again, tell me a single game with the animation blending of Naughty Dog titles, while retaining a ridiculously low latency, tell me a single game in which every single shader in the game no matter how relevant reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters, tell me a single game with a comparable dynamic global illumination, tell me a single game with a comparabe SSS on vegetation, tell me a single game with soft-body dynamics on charachters with muscle simulations like forming double chins, bending noses etc, tell me a single game with comparable physics animations, tell me a single game in which all these techniques are blended into one single title. Do it, or simply stfu next time.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Wait, how is the entire thread on WD:L reviewed by DF a perfect example of this:

PS gamer: "Yes, and if I want to go into an Xbox/PC thread and tell those guys that my games look better to me than their games look to them, I'm right and they are wrong!

When you yourself mentioned there aren't enough Sony fans there?

You misunderstand.

The DF video states exactly what makes WD:L superior reflections over Spiderman MM and the console version of WD:L. The thread has been made and there aren't any Sony warriors in there comparing it to Spiderman MM. Why? Let's go there and discuss.
 

VFXVeteran

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Vick,

Give up man. You are interpreting everything I say and warping it in your own mind to make me look "clueless" in your mind, while others are looking at you and shaking their heads with shock that you are so off.

Yeah.. sure. Which just made you realize how clueless you actually were on certain techniques used on some console titles.

Where is this coming from? I'm never clueless on understanding 3d techniques. Not sure where this is coming from,

Bullshit, it is used in addition to the SSAO (i think it's SSAO at least, it's artifact free anyway). List me another game that does this.


That's why i said "reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters".
If i get closer to that metal bar it will change it's appereance to accomodate my proximity. List me another game that does this for every shader of the game.

Bro, one more time. IN ORDER to capture FULL SCENE global illumination.. EVERY OBJECT must cast AO on EVERY OTHER object. Your capsule AO on just the character isn't enough to represent the entire global illumination. In the REAL WORLD, every object occludes every other object.

Again, RAY TRACING WILL FIX THIS! Not a better screenspace/capsule technique.

Oh.. so you need true real-time ray tracing on thousands of dollars worth of PC from 2020 and found in only one title to surpass that "not-true-dynamic-GI" which however looks and behave exactly like a "true-dynamic-GI", on a $399 Console from 2013..

Dude, you are a ridiculous console warrior. Price doesn't matter with regards to what's the best platform for a technique and there are several titles that will push visuals further than what you are seeing. They will be 3rd party games.
 
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mancs

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VFX is David jgaffe in disguise , cannot wait till first party Sony titles hit , and this veteran of trolling eats his shorts ..


And dat rtx on a cross gen title , not really made for p5 power , is mightly impressive , and not jerky , like jiffy iffy shitty pc games and jerky frames....
 

mancs

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Pcs ain't ever been the sum of the parts they use , that's why the p5 is a beautiful thing, synergy.
Optimisation.
 
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Md Ray

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ALL of these comments are troll bait. Let us pick up these discussions in a RT thread like the one I've made and let's put it to the test.
No, it's not.
Native 4K + RT really surprised me here bearing in mind that a 2080 Ti at launch had to resort to 1080p when RT was enabled.

That sweet console optimization magic.
I'll address this comment of mine.

When I said: "2080 Ti at launch had to resort to 1080p when RT was enabled."

I meant: 2080 Ti struggling to do consistent 60+fps at native 4K with the highest possible RT quality at launch. It's true and you know it. Some titles IIRC were doing ok when the resolution was dropped to 1440p, but still wasn't enough for a 60fps lock, and they had to be dropped all the way to 1080p for a consistent 60fps lock. DLSS 1.0 wasn't that great either, but since DLSS 2.0 things have improved a great deal.

"That sweet console optimization magic."

This bit here is simply praising the work of the devs' smart optimization techniques in achieving a very good RT visual/performance out of a $399 console hardware.

You need to stop getting triggered by posts praising consoles and its games.
 
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Vick

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Where is this coming from? I'm never clueless on understanding 3d techniques. Not sure where this is coming from,
I talk about capsule AO in addition to regular AO, a feature no other game use.

Your clueless take is:

"EVERY single last gen game does this. It's AUTOMATIC. You turn on AO and the algorithm does it's thing."

I talk about the game using torch dynamic GI.

Your clueless take is:

"There isn't a SINGLE EXCLUSIVE PS GAME that uses "dynamic GI". Do you even know how it works??"

Bro, one more time. IN ORDER to capture FULL SCENE global illumination.. EVERY OBJECT must cast AO on EVERY OTHER object. Your capsule AO on just the character isn't enough to represent the entire global illumination. In the REAL WORLD, every object occludes every other object.
And now you are mixing the two things for some weird reason. You really are clueless.

Dude, you are a ridiculous console warrior.
Whatever you think i am, you said close to thousands of times in this Forum there is nothing on PS exclusive not found elsewere on PC.
So now tell me a single game with the animation blending of Naughty Dog titles, while retaining a ridiculously low latency, tell me a single game in which every single shader in the game no matter how relevant reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters, tell me a single game with a comparable dynamic global illumination, tell me a single game with a comparabe SSS on vegetation, tell me a single game with soft-body dynamics on charachters with muscle simulations like forming double chins, bending noses etc, tell me a single game with comparable physics animations, tell me a single game in which all these techniques are blended into one single title.

Be a man and do it.
 

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No, it's not.

I'll address this comment of mine.

When I said: "2080 Ti at launch had to resort to 1080p when RT was enabled."

I meant: 2080 Ti struggling to do consistent 60+fps at native 4K with the highest possible RT quality at launch. It's true and you know it. Some titles IIRC were doing ok when the resolution was dropped to 1440p, but still wasn't enough for a 60fps lock, and they had to be dropped all the way to 1080p for a consistent 60fps lock. DLSS 1.0 wasn't that great either, but since DLSS 2.0 things have improved a great deal.

The 2080TI simply isn't powerful enough to do 4k/60FPS with all RT effects on. OK. Why would you expect it to be? When a new card comes out, that doesn't mean it's going to tackle anything thrown at it. There is a limit to all hardware.

"That sweet console optimization magic."

This bit here is simply praising the work of the devs' smart optimization techniques in achieving a very good RT visual/performance out of a $399 console hardware.

They cut out features and lowered resolution. You sound hypocritical. How can you praise a company for cutting out features that affect the look and lowered the resolution from native 4k and pat them on the back for producing a much much lower quality than the 2080Ti? And then you crucify the 2080Ti for not hitting a target you EXPECTED it should? What about all the expectations that the next-gen consoles will at least do 4k/60 native and it didn't pan out that way? What about you guys expecting full suite of RT features like Cerny mentioned in the PS reveal and not a single game has shown to do them all? Why don't they get criticized for that?
 
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Md Ray

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The 2080TI simply isn't powerful enough to do 4k/60FPS with all RT effects on. OK. Why would you expect it to be? When a new card comes out, that doesn't mean it's going to tackle anything thrown at it. There is a limit to all hardware.



They cut out features and lowered resolution. You sound hypocritical. How can you praise a company for cutting out features that affect the look and lowered the resolution from native 4k and pat them on the back for producing a much much lower quality than the 2080Ti? And then you crucify the 2080Ti for not hitting a target you EXPECTED it should? What about all the expectations that the next-gen consoles will at least do 4k/60 native and it didn't pan out that way? What about you guys expecting full suite of RT features like Cerny mentioned in the PS reveal and not a single game has shown to do them all? Why don't they get criticized for that?
Which game are you talking about here?
 

VFXVeteran

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---snip---

Whatever you think i am, you said close to thousands of times in this Forum there is nothing on PS exclusive not found elsewere on PC.
So now tell me a single game with the animation blending of Naughty Dog titles, while retaining a ridiculously low latency, tell me a single game in which every single shader in the game no matter how relevant reacts to the proximity occlusion from the characters, tell me a single game with a comparable dynamic global illumination, tell me a single game with a comparabe SSS on vegetation, tell me a single game with soft-body dynamics on charachters with muscle simulations like forming double chins, bending noses etc, tell me a single game with comparable physics animations, tell me a single game in which all these techniques are blended into one single title.

Be a man and do it.

I'll do one better.. Look at ANY of the last few 3rd party games in the last 2yrs and it will be in that game.

The animation blending is new in ND and exclusive to them. I don't (and most people either) care much about animation blending. It makes the movements look nice, but it's not a feature that other hardware can't do. The features I'm talking about - the PS and Xbox literally don't have the power to do it.

Your GI, etc.. is old tech dude. I can name several games that use reverse normals (i.e. Marvel Avengers, Tomb Raider, MW, etc.. etc.. the list goes on. ). Do you think that Sony 1st party games are the ONLY games that implement the tech you mentioned (aside from the Animation blending)? Do you think every single 3rd party company is using inferior technique to inverse normal SSS or AO? Really??
 
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Vick

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The animation blending is new in ND and exclusive to them.

I don't (and most people either) care much about animation blending.
But we don't give a fuck about you caring for it or not. It is not present in other games.
And you should care by the way, wtf kind of VFX veteran are you to not value animations?

Your GI, etc.. is old tech dude. I can name several games that use reverse normals (i.e. Marvel Avengers, Tomb Raider, MW, etc.. etc.. the list goes on. ).
Reverse normals? Do you think that GI is achieved by reverse normals?



Do you think that Sony 1st party games are the ONLY games that implement the tech you mentioned (aside from the Animation blending)?
Really? What about the soft-body dynamics on characters, with muscle simulations like forming double chins or bending noses, which other game feature those?

And the physics animations? Which game?


And which other game does this?

 
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