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LTTP: Just played and finished TLOU2

GymWolf

Gold Member
It was drunkman desperate attempt to make any of his characters even a bit likeable.
 
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Reactions: Isa
This. Times ten. I, and many others, could obviously see the angle Druckman was going with the plot. We don't need the enlightened few to beat us over the head with the "You don't get it, you fell right into the trap," stick. It was obvious with the substantial switch over to Abby's perspective that the player was supposed to walk a mile in her shoes and see what was initially (and in most games, only) portrayed as a black and white scenario in shades of grey.

Where it fails is pacing, narrative structure, and giving these very key themes to the plot a chance to breathe. Let's go over this:

1. Pacing

This game has two mandatory campaigns, and both are absolute SLOGS until the middle portions. Too many Telltale walking simulator scenarios and a little too much free roam through wide linear areas with nothing along the lines of environmental puzzles or combat. Lots of mash button to pick up a piece of cloth or a bottle type stuff.

2. Narrative Structure

Could also fit in with pacing. I don't know who decided to have one campaign, nice and slow build, chop off right before the climax, second campaign, largely unrelated to first, entirely separate, unattached climax in different place, at different time. All three "stories," worked well enough in a vacuum, but slammed together (and I say that quite intentionally, slammed, not woven) into one narrative harmed all three. Easiest solution is one that's parroted a lot, but how about Ellie chapter 1, Abby chapter 1, Ellie chapter 2, etc, etc? It keeps both characters and their motivations fresh and relevant in the players' mind, keeps the characters and settings interesting, and allows for the theatre climax to occur as the natural climax for both.

3. Managing themes

Giving Abby one flashback scene in the middle of the story to justify her decision may work, to some. Giving her one scene to justify her decision and to validate spending the second half of the game with her is a tougher sale. This isn't crying about Abby, indeed, I thought her section was much more compelling froma game design standpoint than Ellie's first and largest segment. But as a narrative decision, I think it falls flat because of the amount of time we've been given with Joel and Ellie FAR surpasses that one scene with Abby. This could have been remedied by giving her some pathos regarding everything being the same after her Jackson trio, that revenge was hollow, etc, and having her deal with some of that fallout, but instead, we get some lines from the characters equaling "yeah, that happened, haha," and all of her character development from that point on is based on Lev.

Lev's story was interesting, and the foil it provided for Abby was a classic "civilized man realizes the savages are humans, too," angle and completely worked as far as breaking her from her insular way of life, but it felt like a filler arc in the context of the main story to me. In a laser focused narrative with dual protagonists, every decision and action by Ellie should affect Abby as much as it does for Abby to Ellie. If that was the angle they were going for, they needed to go all in, and tie these two characters together TIGHTLY. The story that was told in Abby's campaign was one worthy of hearing, but I might have preferred it in a hypothetical Part III, an entire game centered around allegiances, perspectives, toxic dogma, etc. Here, it felt more like a buffet of ideas, with the guest stuffing too many different flavors on their plate to really appreciate the nuance of any one of them. Yeah, you leave full, but it hurts your retention for the individual dishes.
Yeah, I can't stand when any story tries to tell everything via flashbacks, and the rest of the narrative doesn't hold up in present time. That's where all the "revelations" happen in Pt2, and it strains all credulity out of the rest of the story. In every thread you're constantly being told "you don't get it", when it's nothing that's hard to comprehend, just poorly written. A bit key in the writing process is that you have to make your characters act in believable ways, or people won't believe your story.
 

DForce

Member
Yeah, I can't stand when any story tries to tell everything via flashbacks, and the rest of the narrative doesn't hold up in present time. That's where all the "revelations" happen in Pt2, and it strains all credulity out of the rest of the story. In every thread you're constantly being told "you don't get it", when it's nothing that's hard to comprehend, just poorly written. A bit key in the writing process is that you have to make your characters act in believable ways, or people won't believe your story.

I asked you before to provide 3 examples of poorly written scenarios where characters act in unbelievable ways but never got them.

Can you actually provide those 3?
 

Majormaxxx

Member
This. Times ten. I, and many others, could obviously see the angle Druckman was going with the plot. We don't need the enlightened few to beat us over the head with the "You don't get it, you fell right into the trap," stick. It was obvious with the substantial switch over to Abby's perspective that the player was supposed to walk a mile in her shoes and see what was initially (and in most games, only) portrayed as a black and white scenario in shades of grey.

Where it fails is pacing, narrative structure, and giving these very key themes to the plot a chance to breathe. Let's go over this:

1. Pacing

This game has two mandatory campaigns, and both are absolute SLOGS until the middle portions. Too many Telltale walking simulator scenarios and a little too much free roam through wide linear areas with nothing along the lines of environmental puzzles or combat. Lots of mash button to pick up a piece of cloth or a bottle type stuff.

2. Narrative Structure

Could also fit in with pacing. I don't know who decided to have one campaign, nice and slow build, chop off right before the climax, second campaign, largely unrelated to first, entirely separate, unattached climax in different place, at different time. All three "stories," worked well enough in a vacuum, but slammed together (and I say that quite intentionally, slammed, not woven) into one narrative harmed all three. Easiest solution is one that's parroted a lot, but how about Ellie chapter 1, Abby chapter 1, Ellie chapter 2, etc, etc? It keeps both characters and their motivations fresh and relevant in the players' mind, keeps the characters and settings interesting, and allows for the theatre climax to occur as the natural climax for both.

3. Managing themes

Giving Abby one flashback scene in the middle of the story to justify her decision may work, to some. Giving her one scene to justify her decision and to validate spending the second half of the game with her is a tougher sale. This isn't crying about Abby, indeed, I thought her section was much more compelling froma game design standpoint than Ellie's first and largest segment. But as a narrative decision, I think it falls flat because of the amount of time we've been given with Joel and Ellie FAR surpasses that one scene with Abby. This could have been remedied by giving her some pathos regarding everything being the same after her Jackson trio, that revenge was hollow, etc, and having her deal with some of that fallout, but instead, we get some lines from the characters equaling "yeah, that happened, haha," and all of her character development from that point on is based on Lev.

Lev's story was interesting, and the foil it provided for Abby was a classic "civilized man realizes the savages are humans, too," angle and completely worked as far as breaking her from her insular way of life, but it felt like a filler arc in the context of the main story to me. In a laser focused narrative with dual protagonists, every decision and action by Ellie should affect Abby as much as it does for Abby to Ellie. If that was the angle they were going for, they needed to go all in, and tie these two characters together TIGHTLY. The story that was told in Abby's campaign was one worthy of hearing, but I might have preferred it in a hypothetical Part III, an entire game centered around allegiances, perspectives, toxic dogma, etc. Here, it felt more like a buffet of ideas, with the guest stuffing too many different flavors on their plate to really appreciate the nuance of any one of them. Yeah, you leave full, but it hurts your retention for the individual dishes.

People just need to take an empathy test. Why are you not helping, Neogaf? :)

  • Holden : You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down...
    Leon : What one?
    Holden : What?
    Leon : What desert?
    Holden : It doesn't make any difference what desert, it's completely hypothetical.
    Leon : But, how come I'd be there?
    Holden : Maybe you're fed up. Maybe you want to be by yourself. Who knows? You look down and see a tortoise, Leon. It's crawling toward you...
    Leon : Tortoise? What's that?
    Holden : [irritated by Leon's interruptions] You know what a turtle is?
    Leon : Of course!
    Holden : Same thing.
    Leon : I've never seen a turtle... But I understand what you mean.
    Holden : You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back, Leon.
    Leon : Do you make up these questions, Mr. Holden? Or do they write 'em down for you?
    Holden : The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.
    Leon : [angry at the suggestion] What do you mean, I'm not helping?
    Holden : I mean: you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?
    [Leon has become visibly shaken]
    Holden : They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?

 

Guilty_AI

Member
And I am really sick of people telling me how it's a bad game and how the writing is somehow terrible...
The whole "writing" thing is really getting out of hand. What does it even mean
Its bad writing because the story acts as if it invented moral ambiguity and bases itself around that assumption, and characters are straight out of teenager dramas, love triangles and everything.

Also, its really tiring seeing fanbases acting as if grimdark equals maturity and realism. This isn't even new, there are craploads of stories pulling the same bullshit TLoU2 does then gathering overprotective fans that act as if anyone who didn't like it simply isn't "mature" enough for it. "TLoU2's" discussions like this have been happening since the 80s.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
I asked you before to provide 3 examples of poorly written scenarios where characters act in unbelievable ways but never got them.

Can you actually provide those 3?
Abby's group wearing their WLF patches far outside their territory.
Joel never bringing up he saved Abby after she shot him.
Jordan going to choke Dina instead of just shooting her.
Mel and Owen never bringing the pregnancy as a survival tactic when facing Ellie.
Tommy not shooting Abby when he ambushes her at Port66 while before he didn't hold back with shooting at her.

Tommy, Dina and Ellie making it back to Jackson with their injuries is probably more of a plot hole.

I'm sure I can bring up more if I rewatch the story on YT.
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
Its bad writing because the story acts as if it invented moral ambiguity and bases itself around that assumption, and characters are straight out of teenager dramas, love triangles and everything.

Also, its really tiring seeing fanbases acting as if grimdark equals maturity and realism. This isn't even new, there are craploads of stories pulling the same bullshit TLoU2 does then gathering overprotective fans that act as if anyone who didn't like it simply isn't "mature" enough for it. "TLoU2's" discussions like this have been happening since the 80s.

It's also very predictable broad strokes for anyone with even a passing familiarity of genre.

THAR BE SPOILERS IN THESE WATERS

It was obvious Joel was going to die, even before the leaks. There was something off in his trailer appearances, and this isn't hindsight. There were people saying he was a ghost/hallucination since the reveal teaser.

It was obvious that Abby was going to have some personal stake in her plot against Joel. Some part of me wonders if it would have been more compelling if it were just a random act of violence from a stranger.

I felt like I had the Shinigami ability to see people's life spans above their heads for how obvious it was which characters were going to die brutal deaths as soon as they were introduced. Double spoilers: it was all the characters who were written with rice paper backgrounds that mostly just delve into what they do as a profession. Dina? There's mentions of her family, of her faith, of her past, of her sexuality and relationships. She was obviously surviving. Yara? She was a character who informed Lev, who informed Abby. Definitely a goner. Isaac? Leader, angry guy. Definitely dead. Jesse? He likes Dina. He's Asian. He's dead.

It was obvious the parallels between Abby and Ellie would be drawn almost comically close to mirrors. Pregnant chick with Ellie? Pregnant chick with Abby. Guardian/Dependent situation making the older gruffer character softer and the younger more naive character hardened? Joel/Ellie, Abby/Lev. Check. Character struggling with identity lashback from her community? Ellie, lesbian. Lev, transgender. Check. See that cute dog? THAT DOG IS GONNA GET STABBED. Tender, nostalgic museum? Tender nostalgic aquarium. A LOT of this is too on the nose and adorable to be considered fantastic writing. It's competent, yeah. It's Citizen Kane compared to Mario or Duke Nukem, yeah. But placing it as a GOTG, 20,000 awards, this game got me Pregnant and I named my child Ellie Druckman is almost going so far to attempt to legitimatize gaming as a serious medium that it goes in the opposite direction. If after fifty odd years, this is the absolute best of the best, and there's nothing left to strive for, then this medium is already dead. Let's appreciate the work, but not rest on our laurels here.
 
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DForce

Member
Abby's group wearing their WLF patches far outside their territory.
Joel never bringing up he saved Abby after she shot him.
Jordan going to choke Dina instead of just shooting her.
Mel and Owen never bringing the pregnancy as a survival tactic when facing Ellie.
Tommy not shooting Abby when he ambushes her at Port66 while before he didn't hold back with shooting at her.

Tommy, Dina and Ellie making it back to Jackson with their injuries is probably more of a plot hole.

I'm sure I can bring up more if I rewatch the story on YT.
This is not an example of bad writing, this is just bad story comprehension.

Examples:
-Ellie told them they could survive and that she just wanted to know where Abby was located. Owen went for the gun when he thought Ellie was going to shoot <el and she hesitated to point on the map.
-Tommy, Ellie, and Dina's injuries are survivable wounds, even without medical treatment.
-Abby wearing a WLF patch is not bad writing. That's like saying every single murder movie is bad writing because they leave clues behind.
-Tommy could have easily ran out of ammo.

I've already discussed many plot elements with you before and you will often manufacture things just to be critical. You literally called the stairs on Port66 too convenient when it's a literal building.
 

Woggleman

Member
From a certain point of view TLOU1 had a Disney ending. I know it apparently isn't a popular opinion. But the protagonist and his "daughter" were saved. I don't know how someone is expected to sacrifice someone they view as their child for the good of others - be it 1 other person or 1 million other people.
With all due respect it was clear from the last act in the first game that the nature of their relationship had changed. It was clear that eventually they would have to address the lie.

What Joel did was understandable but what Abby and her friends did also was. Joel not only killed her father but also pretty wiped out their community and left them orphans who had no choice but to be taken in by a military dictatorship.

There are no black and white villians in this universe besides maybe David and The Rattlers.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Yeah people around here don't take too kindly to people not liking this game. I have been reply banned from several topics by fanboys who need their hive mind safe space when it comes to this one. It's funny how these same people will bitch about resetera silencing opinions, while they themselves silence different opinions. Oh well.
I have no ideia why you hate so much gamers that like the game? :pie_thinking:
The game is really exceptional.
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
Narratively, it’s not as tight as the original and that has nothing to do with the people bitching and moaning about SJW/inclusivity tropes (“bigot sandwich” being the cringe exception here), it’s just a bit on the long side and has some weaker/overdone plot points.

Overall though? The gameplay is fun as hell, it’s a better playing game than the original which was already great, and now that I have a new TV and a PS5 I’m totally ready for a new game + run
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
Elly didn't know she'd have to die when going to that hospital. Marlene seems to confirm that by saying "It's what she'd want.", indicating they never asked her about the surgery.

Even if it's for a good cause, killing a patient without informed consent is still immoral and justifies lethal force in the defence of that patient.

Well, do things like theft, murder, rape stop being wrong because society fell? 👀

I like moral ambiguity in my stories but when reviewing the facts of the matter that went down at the hospital, IMO the Fireflies mishandled the situation to the point they can be considered villains.
Like I said, the world they live in doesn’t abide by the rules lf today like patients being informed lol. There is no society, the world has mostly been wiped out by a zombie like virus lol.

You cant compare the moral ambiguity of trying to save human kind from the virus to theft, rape or murder.

If Ellie was a baby she can’t give consent, would they kill 1 child to save humanity or save the child and let humanity suffer?
 
Great gameplay mechanics, fantastic art direction, stellar music....

Bloated and boring as shit, awful story with ridiculous character retcons and terrible progression. One of the biggest disappointments of the generation in my opinion, that they have still yet to salvage with a decent mp mode like the first game had.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
This is not an example of bad writing, this is just bad story comprehension.
If characters are supposed to look incompetent then yeah it's not bad writing but I doubt they were written that way.
Examples:
-Ellie told them they could survive and that she just wanted to know where Abby was located. Owen went for the gun when he thought Ellie was going to shoot <el and she hesitated to point on the map.
So it makes Ellie look dumb going into close range when she has a ranged weapon.
-Tommy, Ellie, and Dina's injuries are survivable wounds, even without medical treatment.
In a world with infected, cannibals/hunters, being injured like that, the storytelling shouldn't take for granted they just make it back.
-Abby wearing a WLF patch is not bad writing. That's like saying every single murder movie is bad writing because they leave clues behind.
Again, it's incompetence of Abby and co. People surviving in a TLOU(2) should know better. Especially if they're going cross states to hunt someone with just vague clues themselves.
-Tommy could have easily ran out of ammo.
Or Abby's plot armor is too prevalent in the current writing. Better writing of that scene could've fixed it and there would be no question if Tommy is being dumb or if he ran out of bullets.
I've already discussed many plot elements with you before and you will often manufacture things just to be critical. You literally called the stairs on Port66 too convenient when it's a literal building.
It's convenient Yara finds out about those stairs while being stealthy and no indication she's familiar with the building at all in time to save Abby.
 

Fbh

Member
Agreed. Most of the people who disliked the game did so for the story, but to me the structure and bloat were the biggest issue (didn't hate it though, was a solid 7/10 for me).

My main issue with the game is that it's too long and repetitive. It's almost twice as long as the original but doesn't add enough new stuff and variety to justify it's length. Eventually you just fall into this rhythm of fight - scavenging - safe "puzzle" - fight, all in very samey environments with samey enemies. Which is fun for a while but eventually starts to drag on.
Like a third of the game is also "scavenging" a.k.a slowly walking through empty building opening mostly empty drawers for like 10 minutes. TLOU1 had that too but since the game is shorter it doesn't get that annoying.

My other big issue was the "cut" in the middle. They have you slowly improve Ellie and just when you have her well upgraded and with a good variety of weapons they have you start over with a new character from scratch.

The story was Ok, I think the first one was better and I still think they took out the main dynamic that worked really well and replaced it with a bunch of other ones that weren't nearly as good. Also the whole Owen side of the story was fucking terrible and the game would have been much better without it
 
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DForce

Member
So it makes Ellie look dumb going into close range when she has a ranged weapon.
I'm addressing one point because you're clearly manufacturing flaws that are not there. She's in close range because she wants Mel to point to the location on the map. To point on the map, you need to be in close proximity.

Again, I can't continue this discussion because you have a strange habit of coming up with illogical scenarios just to find flaws in the game. I don't have time for that.
 
I think in a few years there will be a lot of posts from people saying I replayed "The last of us 2 and I was wrong" or "I finally played the game why did everyone hate this?"
Then in like 2030 People will be hungry for more and Sony will present a trailer for Part III to mass applause.

I mean the fact that the game is still evoking these types of responses from people means they felt something powerful, which is more than we can say about most games we get these days.

Nah, the "Rian Johnson's Divide Your Audience" move is a one-shot trick that screws up a franchise. Disney saw that happening with Force Awakens getting $2B box office sales and Last Jedi being so detrimental to the franchise that even non-main movies got severely affected, making them halt the release of SW movies altogether. Rise of Skywalker couldn't even match Rogue One in worldwide sales which is, for all intents and purposes, a much smaller scope movie without space wizards and well known characters.

Many TLoU1 fans didn't buy TLoU2 because of word-of-mouth, confirmed story leaks and non-mainstream reviews like Skill Up's. Some of TLoU2's sales came from people who loved the first title but aren't touching that franchise again (ask this thread's OP if he's planning on buying TLoU3).
TLoU1 sold 17 million copies total. Earlier this year Sucker Punch bragged about selling over 6.5 million copies of Ghost of Tsushima and that's before Director's Cut. My guess is TLoU2 didn't reach GoT's sales, despite those initial 4 million pre-order + release day sales that were made out of sheer good faith from TLoU1 fans. Otherwise someone from Naughty Dog would have definitely bragged about game sales at this point.



Please note I'm not crapping on the game or the people who enjoyed it. I'm just commenting on the following points:

1 - TLoU2 is a game that divided the fan base;
2 - Dividing a fanbase isn't good for a franchise. The portion of people who liked what the game brings isn't going to buy it twice to compensate the ones who didn't. It's just bad for business.
3 - Sony's silence on TLoU2's total sales probably means they're pretty far from TLoU1's.
4 - Sony is most probably never going to acknowledge TLoU2's structural choices on story writing, themes, protagonists, length, etc. hurt the game's sales.
 

DForce

Member
TLoU1 sold 17 million copies total. Earlier this year Sucker Punch bragged about selling over 6.5 million copies of Ghost of Tsushima and that's before Director's Cut. My guess is TLoU2 didn't reach GoT's sales, despite those initial 4 million pre-order + release day sales that were made out of sheer good faith from TLoU1 fans. Otherwise someone from Naughty Dog would have definitely bragged about game sales at this point.

TLOU 2 and GoT sales were somewhat close in the US.
GoT didn't come close to TLOU 2 sales in Europe.

There's no way Ghost of Tsushima is close or even ahead of the Last of Us Part II in sales.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Like I said, the world they live in doesn’t abide by the rules lf today like patients being informed lol. There is no society, the world has mostly been wiped out by a zombie like virus lol.
So when there's no more society, killing a patient without informed consent becomes a neutral act rather than an immoral one?
You cant compare the moral ambiguity of trying to save human kind from the virus to theft, rape or murder.
Nothing had been shown the Fireflies would be able to produce and distribute enough vaccines to make a difference.
If Ellie was a baby she can’t give consent, would they kill 1 child to save humanity or save the child and let humanity suffer?
If TLOU2 is anything to go by, pockets of humanity seem to survive fine and can handle the infected well enough that they're no longer the main threat, other humans are.

It remains to be seen how a vaccine would "save" such a world.
 

Urban

Member
I liked the game a lot BUT if there would be one thing that I could change than it would be :

imagine you are playing from the start Ellie and Abby one at a time and they meet at the start of the game and you kinda like Abby.

In the Final act ( once you play with her for a long time ) you enter the room and Abby sees Joel for the first time and the sequence begins .

That would be a insane twist and most of us would hated us because we brought the killer of Joel to him…
 
I never finished it so maybe this disqualifies my opinion but I found the story telling emotionally manipulative like a Disney or Pixar film but if someone with no tact or grace tried to do it. Add in the fact that (well made) adult orientated media tends to respect its audience enough to not have to signpost how you should feel about a certain thing so heavy-handedly and the whole thing felt like a missed opportunity.

I find criticism of the story gets similar pushback to criticism of films like Midsommar 'You just don't understand it' when the reality is it has a similar method of storytelling in that tries so hard to force you feel a certain thing and if you don't it has no impact and you just wonder what the big deal is.

The gameplay was much better than the first but I got so bored about half way through Abby's bit that I gave up and never went back.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
I'm addressing one point because you're clearly manufacturing flaws that are not there. She's in close range because she wants Mel to point to the location on the map. To point on the map, you need to be in close proximity.
Another dumb thing, Ellie wants someone to come real close to point on the map she's holding rather than putting it down somewhere and have someone point on it. The writing was clearly focussed on forcing a confrontation rather than have people act logically in a situation like that.
Again, I can't continue this discussion because you have a strange habit of coming up with illogical scenarios just to find flaws in the game. I don't have time for that.
:lollipop_confounded:
 
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DForce

Member
Thanks for the info. Do you have a source for this?
Within a 12 month period, TLOU 2 was 4th while GoT was 6th.

This doesn't account for The Director's Cut and it gave a small boost in sales recently.

In 2020, TLOU 2 finished 7th while GoT finished 16th.

The Director's cut didn't stay on top of the charts for long so it really didn't make up any ground.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
So when there's no more society, killing a patient without informed consent becomes a neutral act rather than an immoral one?

Nothing had been shown the Fireflies would be able to produce and distribute enough vaccines to make a difference.

If TLOU2 is anything to go by, pockets of humanity seem to survive fine and can handle the infected well enough that they're no longer the main threat, other humans are.

It remains to be seen how a vaccine would "save" such a world.
Im not saying its not immoral, but it would be a debate to try stop the infection further or try and save whats left of humanity. Maybe pockets of people are fine but Im sure they’d prefer to have no chance of being infected.

Saving many future people for the price of 1 person.

Like I said Id probably do what Joel did.
But if I was the doctors Id probably do anything I can to save many lives for the price of one etc.

Not saying the Fireflies were right but I can see what they want to do. Ellie herself afterwards hated Joel for his decision
 

TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
Another dumb thing, Ellie wants someone to come real close to point on the map she's holding rather than putting it down somewhere and have someone point on it. The writing was clearly focussed on forcing a confrontation rather than have people act logically in a situation like that.

:lollipop_confounded:

LOL you noob, obvs if she did that then Ormsby or whatever his name is could have just lit a match and burned the map and then she'd be stuck in the aquarium and be lost in Seattle and it'd turn into a Snake Plisken sequel holy shit dude you're like the hobo at mcdonalds, grasping for straws. Druckman/Gross had a vision and that vision was perfection

Next you're gonna tell me that the rat king was unrealistic because it had a human base and was stuck under a hospital for 20+ years without food or nourishment and every other infected grows to a wall and dies without nutrition but this guy was the juggernaut, bitch.

And then you're gonna start going off about how the Fireflies were depicted as being incapable and dumb af in the first game but now they're a competent military force all over the country. It's called the plot evolving dude. Don't get mad at my God, Druckman for changing his own story. It was his own story. Gawd.

(Hehehehehe)
 

DForce

Member
LOL you noob, obvs if she did that then Ormsby or whatever his name is could have just lit a match and burned the map and then she'd be stuck in the aquarium and be lost in Seattle and it'd turn into a Snake Plisken sequel holy shit dude you're like the hobo at mcdonalds, grasping for straws. Druckman/Gross had a vision and that vision was perfection

Next you're gonna tell me that the rat king was unrealistic because it had a human base and was stuck under a hospital for 20+ years without food or nourishment and every other infected grows to a wall and dies without nutrition but this guy was the juggernaut, bitch.

And then you're gonna start going off about how the Fireflies were depicted as being incapable and dumb af in the first game but now they're a competent military force all over the country. It's called the plot evolving dude. Don't get mad at my God, Druckman for changing his own story. It was his own story. Gawd.

(Hehehehehe)
No. Ellie was imitating Joel and Tommy. She did exactly what she was supposed to do, Owen just decided to go for the gun. I know your post is sarcastic, but the more I discuss or see people try to point out bad writing in this game, it only proves that they did not pay attention to what was going on. First, he went from "Mel should've told Ellie she was pregnant to protect himself" to "Oh, Ellie was being stupid".
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Im not saying its not immoral, but it would be a debate to try stop the infection further or try and save whats left of humanity. Maybe pockets of people are fine but Im sure they’d prefer to have no chance of being infected.
The Fireflies' complete disregard of what Ellie may want is what sours any chance of me rooting for them. If in an alternate world they'd asked Ellie and she'd agreed then they would appear much more sympathetic and human to me. If Joel goes on a killing spree to stop the operation in that world then he'd clearly be the villain in my view.(Though it would still raise question why Ellie is so clingy to him the whole game if she was ready to abandon him for the vaccine.)

The vaccine is only useful in limited situations though, in case you breathe in spores or survive a bite from an infected. It's useless in all the human on human violence or if an infected rips your throat out.
Saving many future people for the price of 1 person.

Like I said Id probably do what Joel did.
But if I was the doctors Id probably do anything I can to save many lives for the price of one etc.
Still, killing an unconscious person without ever knowing if that person's OK with it strikes me as evil. If there was a ticking tomb in the story that the operation had to happen then and there that would change the situation but as it went down in the game, the Fireflies are the baddies IMO.
Not saying the Fireflies were right but I can see what they want to do. Ellie herself afterwards hated Joel for his decision
I do have issues with how the games handle it, completely letting the Fireflies off the hook, and Joel taking all the blame. He even incriminates himself in how he retells the story in part 2 with so many details left out.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
No. Ellie was imitating Joel and Tommy. She did exactly what she was supposed to do, Owen just decided to go for the gun. I know your post is sarcastic, but the more I discuss or see people try to point out bad writing in this game, it only proves that they did not pay attention to what was going on. First, he went from "Mel should've told Ellie she was pregnant to protect himself" to "Oh, Ellie was being stupid".
Both those things happened, Ellie is dumb for going so close to potential enemies when she has a ranged weapon and they don't. Mel and Owen don't plead for their unborn baby.
 
What a bloated bore fest. Felt like I played 2.5 games.

What were Naughty Dog thinking adding boring strolls around Aquariums, Museums, playing the guitar etc. knowing very well the game is already going to be huge with 2 campaigns. Really enjoyed Ellies campaign and would have been happy if they finished it with her at that moment.

But no we got another campaign trying to make us feel sympathy for Abby and her crew which really didn't work for me. Lev and Yaras story was refreshing I might add.

Just when you think it was over there's a finale just for the sake of Abby and Ellie meeting again. Honestly what a bore it was too.

I know it's a rant but really surprised with Naughty Dog since I have enjoyed all their PS3 and PS4 games in the past. Didn't play this because of the spoilers that were leaked but decided to give it a chance. Really disappointed.

Sorry mods, couldn't find a thread where I could post my opinion on the game because they are closed.
Funnily enough the Museum and Aquarium sections are two parts that I found unbelievable. The combat sections are decent with both characters. But Abby is pretty boring and Ellie's character was ruined by completely changing her personality and attitude. It's certainly not as good as the first game though.
 

rofif

Gold Member
Its bad writing because the story acts as if it invented moral ambiguity and bases itself around that assumption, and characters are straight out of teenager dramas, love triangles and everything.

Also, its really tiring seeing fanbases acting as if grimdark equals maturity and realism. This isn't even new, there are craploads of stories pulling the same bullshit TLoU2 does then gathering overprotective fans that act as if anyone who didn't like it simply isn't "mature" enough for it. "TLoU2's" discussions like this have been happening since the 80s.
Then good luck playing any fucking game with that attitude.
You are so incredibly deeply critical of the smallest things...
I see the story as very ambitious and well written. I don't see any major problems with it. I've watched countless of movies and played countless of games and I can't say there is much better storytelling in may games...
If this is your bar, good luck playing other games. What are people expecting ?! Of course there are teenage dramas because they are teenagers. hateful and revengeful.
This isn't even new ?! What is new ?! the only new story in movies games recently is Death Stranding. Another great game people don't like.
Every story has been told before. This does not change anything. TLOU2 made me feel no other game did. It tricked me and played with my emotions. I really hated the game, then really enjoyed it and then cried at the end for characters I hated. HOW ?!

The only one better written game I can recall now is SOMA. The moral questions in it are far more philosophical though
 
Funny how opinions work. The fact I got 2.5 games is one of the reasons why I loved this.

Also... Abby's part is much better from a gameplay perspective. That Day 2...and that Day 3 are just so good. Climbing that building and how vertical the level is, the descent right after, Ground Zero culminating with the rat king, the snipper part, the island... seriously great stuff!
 
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PanzerAzel

Member
Wtf I cannot understand how can anyone have this harsh opinion on it.
the game is like an empathy test. You can fast see who is stubborn and jaded.
I have no problem with empathy, but execution and nuance matters, and it matters more than people think.

It’s possible to tell a story poorly, whether it be through pacing, characterization, inconsistency, plot, or any other aspect that holds bearing on effective storytelling, and that is not the consumer’s fault…….it is the creator’s. Where does the immediate assumption that this is a well-told story come from, and if you don’t like it, you’re stubborn and jaded? Could it possibly be that it’s not a well-told story? I find it to be generally indicative of a competently executed narrative that debate about it revolves around the fictional universe it inhabits and about the characters, motivations, and plot intricacies, not about the structure or mechanisms of its execution, or the character inconsistencies, plot holes or whatnot. While there has been some of the former with TLoU II, I’ve seen much more of the latter.

The game seems to be much more under attack for its structure and manner of its storytelling, and not about what its storytelling is saying. At least that’s what I’ve seen.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Then good luck playing any fucking game with that attitude.
You are so incredibly deeply critical of the smallest things...
I see the story as very ambitious and well written. I don't see any major problems with it. I've watched countless of movies and played countless of games and I can't say there is much better storytelling in may games...
If this is your bar, good luck playing other games. What are people expecting ?! Of course there are teenage dramas because they are teenagers. hateful and revengeful.
This isn't even new ?! What is new ?! the only new story in movies games recently is Death Stranding. Another great game people don't like.
Every story has been told before. This does not change anything. TLOU2 made me feel no other game did. It tricked me and played with my emotions. I really hated the game, then really enjoyed it and then cried at the end for characters I hated. HOW ?!

The only one better written game I can recall now is SOMA. The moral questions in it are far more philosophical though
We all are free to like whatever the hell we want. Heck, i have my share of shitty games or deeply flawed stories that i enjoyed regardless.

But when something like TLoU2 comes around, where it gets a fanbase that keeps pushing it as some sort gospel en masse, or claiming whoever doesn't like it just isn't "mature enough", is a bigot, lacks empathy, or whatever other bullshit excuse they find that doesn't end with the simple conclusion of "yeah this story isn't that good, but I enjoyed it regardless", you can be sure as hell others will start picking out all the flaws, and this game has no shortage of it for that.
 
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rofif

Gold Member
I have no problem with empathy, but execution and nuance matters, and it matters more than people think.

It’s possible to tell a story poorly, whether it be through pacing, characterization, inconsistency, plot, or any other aspect that holds bearing on effective storytelling, and that is not the consumer’s fault…….it is the creator’s. Where does the immediate assumption that this is a well-told story come from, and if you don’t like it, you’re stubborn and jaded? Could it possibly be that it’s not a well-told story? I find it to be generally indicative of a competently executed narrative that debate about it revolves around the fictional universe it inhabits and about the characters, motivations, and plot intricacies, not about the structure or mechanisms of its execution, or the character inconsistencies, plot holes or whatnot. While there has been some of the former with TLoU II, I’ve seen much more of the latter.

The game seems to be much more under attack for its structure and manner of its storytelling, and not about what its storytelling is saying. At least that’s what I’ve seen.
I just thought I am the most stubborn ass fool possible. I hated the game for it's woke leaks, cheap story ticks and FORCING me to play as this terrible character.
But I got so gobsmacked by the fact that the game forcefully won me over... and then I started to love it even backwards... the parts I hated.
It's really something no game has done to me. I just had to let go of the leaks and assumptions.
The game forces you to have a bad time in order to deliver it's message. You are kinda taken on the exact same trip as Ellie.
Or it's a Stockholm syndrome. like "f you, you are going to play 15 hours as this asshat"... and then I am super surprised it is the better part of the game
 

assurdum

Member
I have no problem with the general extent, I have had a good fun in the end. But Jesus Christ how I can't stomach the story. It's so obsessed to build his obsessive rhetoric to miss completely to send a decent real subject of the events in this universe. I was more interested to see how was evolved the whole society around Ellie and not just about her revenge and personal feeling; that's what a story should be focused mainly when we talk about narrative, imo, not just about the "emotions" of the protagonists. That's why the first was so flawless and more balanced in the narrative, in my eyes. I definitely missed the touch of the Bruce Straley hand.
 
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im not crying youre crying GIF


It’s good for people to have different opinions on things. Can’t believe what a ridiculous statement this is.

The games good, but way too long in my opinion. That’s all I’ll say in case people start crying that we all don’t have the same opinion.
Way too long but cried about The Order 1886 back in 2015 and any other game thats too short...Some people love outrage. Naughty Dog gives gamers a long campaign, best graphics last gen, best sound design, best animation, best controls, cinematic approach and gamers complain...
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
I don't like either one of the TLOU titles but I, like many others, can not for a moment say that Naughty Dog are not on another level when it comes to story telling. They might be THE only studio to provide the layers and complexity with obvious care given to their games that make them stand apart. Thats why I can look at games like UC4 and TLOU and say they wore on me but I fully respect why people love them and why their audience is able to overlook things that drive me nuts.

However, TLOU II is very weak compared to the first from a narrative stand point. It does not reflect Naughty Dog at their best.
 

assurdum

Member
I don't like either one of the TLOU titles but I, like many others, can not for a moment say that Naughty Dog are not on another level when it comes to story telling. They might be THE only studio to provide the layers and complexity with obvious care given to their games that make them stand apart. Thats why I can look at games like UC4 and TLOU and say they wore on me but I fully respect why people love them and why their audience is able to overlook things that drive me nuts.

However, TLOU II is very weak compared to the first from a narrative stand point. It does not reflect Naughty Dog at their best.
Unfortunately I have to agree.
 

DForce

Member
I have no problem with empathy, but execution and nuance matters, and it matters more than people think.

It’s possible to tell a story poorly, whether it be through pacing, characterization, inconsistency, plot, or any other aspect that holds bearing on effective storytelling, and that is not the consumer’s fault…….it is the creator’s. Where does the immediate assumption that this is a well-told story come from, and if you don’t like it, you’re stubborn and jaded? Could it possibly be that it’s not a well-told story? I find it to be generally indicative of a competently executed narrative that debate about it revolves around the fictional universe it inhabits and about the characters, motivations, and plot intricacies, not about the structure or mechanisms of its execution, or the character inconsistencies, plot holes or whatnot. While there has been some of the former with TLoU II, I’ve seen much more of the latter.

The game seems to be much more under attack for its structure and manner of its storytelling, and not about what its storytelling is saying. At least that’s what I’ve seen.
The story went in a direction that many people simply didn't like, so it's not surprising that they'll claim it's a poorly written game.

Hell, people were saying it was a terribly written game after two cutscenes leaked. I also don't know how many times I've encountered someone who didn't parrot everything that was said in Angry Joe's TLOU 2 review.

So I don't take most people's claim that the writing is bad because of stuff like this.
 

Dr Bass

Gold Member
People just need to take an empathy test. Why are you not helping, Neogaf? :)

  • Holden : You're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down...
    Leon : What one?
    Holden : What?
    Leon : What desert?
    Holden : It doesn't make any difference what desert, it's completely hypothetical.
    Leon : But, how come I'd be there?
    Holden : Maybe you're fed up. Maybe you want to be by yourself. Who knows? You look down and see a tortoise, Leon. It's crawling toward you...
    Leon : Tortoise? What's that?
    Holden : [irritated by Leon's interruptions] You know what a turtle is?
    Leon : Of course!
    Holden : Same thing.
    Leon : I've never seen a turtle... But I understand what you mean.
    Holden : You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back, Leon.
    Leon : Do you make up these questions, Mr. Holden? Or do they write 'em down for you?
    Holden : The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping.
    Leon : [angry at the suggestion] What do you mean, I'm not helping?
    Holden : I mean: you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?
    [Leon has become visibly shaken]
    Holden : They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?

Hot dang, I just read this while listening to the soundtrack, totally by chance.
 

assurdum

Member
The story went in a direction that many people simply didn't like, so it's not surprising that they'll claim it's a poorly written game.

Hell, people were saying it was a terribly written game after two cutscenes leaked. I also don't know how many times I've encountered someone who didn't parrot everything that was said in Angry Joe's TLOU 2 review.

So I don't take most people's claim that the writing is bad because of stuff like this.
Hell no. If you forget the emotional content, and just look the story, is really bad writing and illogic as hell in many moments. A stupid example? There are two pregnant women. One vomit is soul and almost die for two months? (maybe less?) of pregnancy immediately when discover it. The other is almost at the 9 months is a sort of Rambo considered her conditions; also have the strength to face up Ellie.
 
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DForce

Member
Hell no. If you cut the emotional content, the story is bad writing. Stupid and illogic as hell in many moments.
I think the story has great writing and is not illogical in many moments at all. So, I don't know what you're talking about.
 

assurdum

Member
I think the story has great writing and is not illogical in many moments at all. So, I don't know what you're talking about.
You can think whatever you want, doesn't mean who critic the story hasn't any valid reason to do it.
 

elliot5

Member
Ellies campaign was the best with the journey through seattle. Didn't love the horseback section that much, but the seattle center and going through the forests with the whistling fuckers was really memorable. Abby's campaign was kinda zzz other than the hotel and skyline.

But yeah the last prologue stuff could've just.. not happened. Or resolved in a cutscene lol. It was so long after I had already felt worn out from the last 20+ hours of gameplay. The game is masterful, but the pacing was ... tough.
 
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