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(*)Let's Clear Up Some Misconceptions On PS5 & XSX Specs Shall We.....

Which system do YOU think holds the overall performance advantage?


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DrDamn

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XSX has the better spec for the most part. One point in SSD though. The PS5 expansion is via an additional nvme port, so in addition to the standard.


It's also clear from the presentation that the pipeline is specc'ed to handle up to 20GB/s. We don't know these details for the XSX.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Posted by lepermessiah lepermessiah originally:

 

KlickKlack

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your are false here on VRam:
xsx has 10 GB 560Gb/s + 3,5 GB 336GB/s. = ca. 6,79 trillion bytes/s
vs
6,27 trillion bytes/s. ps5

"VRAM: 10 GB 560 GB/s GDDR6 ~> 14 GB 448 GB/s GDDR6 (in terms of raw numbers that's 5.6 trillion bytes of data per second vs 6.272 trillion bytes of data per second, but the XSX can refresh on its pool over 100 GB/s faster than the PS5 can. AKA PS5 = narrow & fast, XSX = wide and slow)(also takes into consideration PS4 will likely partition at least 2 GB of its RAM for the OS and related system features like multi Quick Resume, similar to XSX) "
 
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quest

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I just read that PS5 has 20% better rasterization than Series X.

These are gonna be very close in perf despite what the fanboys are desperately trying to claim.
They are not really close as we were lead to believe. You talking something that will almost never be limited unlike TF of raw power. It's fine to say cerny screwed up he got caught up over engineering that SSD and rest of the system suffers. If they went mid range SSD could had 80-100 mm more die space play with. Instead it is all in a SSD only first party will really use. Poor design choice and even worse to over clock the bejesus out of the chip to the point of variable clocks to make up for the shortfall. I'll get a PS5 but it will be a slim on a new node that handles those clocks better.
 
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They are not really close as we were lead to believe. You talking something that will almost never be limited unlike TF of raw power. It's fine to say cerny screwed up he got caught up over engineering that SSD and rest of the system suffers. If they went mid range SSD could had 80-100 mm more die space play with. Instead it is all in a SSD only first party will really use. Poor design choice and even worse to over clock the bejesus out of the chip to the point of variable clocks to make up for the shortfall. I'll get a PS5 but it will be a slim on a new node that handles those clocks better.

Too many assumptions in your post. Cerny and Sony started work on this hardware over 5 years ago. Until we know real performance, not console war childish flops, we have no idea which is the better designed console or who was caught with their pants down and dick up.
 
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ViciousAgenda

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I'd rather have the system that provides the best experience from a technical perspective.

SX has by far the clearer advantage. It'll be interesting to see if games are at 4k60fps on it and 4k30fps on PS5.
 
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I'd rather have the system that provides the best experience from a technical perspective.

SX has by far the clearer advantage. It'll be interesting to see if games are at 4k60fps on it and 4k30fps on PS5.

I could see that happening. I could see a lot of games being 45ish FPS on PS5 so devs opt for 30 cap
 

Monkeyclone

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They don't want too but PS5 will force their hand, since Sony is committed to clean cut gens. Current gen games will look and feel outdated once next gen exclusive games start making rounds
"As our content comes out over the next year, two years, all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices," Booty told MCV. "We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and [Series X] that they feel that they made a good investment and that we’re committed to them with content."

I think its smart and they should do it but definitely a shame. For me buying a new box and the most interesting thing I can do is play a og Xbox game on ultra with a little ray tracing doesn't seem worth it? Then again i have terrible impulse control and will get both so idk.
 

Bo_Hazem

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XSX is generally more powerful. But when Booty talks, you listen:



That will be VERY decisive, and should hinder 3rd party next gen games for 2 years.

So, it should be less than 5-7fps margin for XSX (if not locked at 60fps) and PS5 will load maps and assets much faster.

By the time we see true XSX games, it's already time for mid-gen refreshes. Can see Sony doing the butterfly technique again, 36+36= 72CU, 20-21 TF.

Oh, shit! I forgot that hindrance of XSX true power will continue if Lockhart (4TF) is a thing!
 
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I could see that happening. I could see a lot of games being 45ish FPS on PS5 so devs opt for 30 cap

Everyone bookmark this post.

You think one is running 30fps and the other 60fps when the gsp this time is less than half that between PS4 and XB1, which never had such a dramatic difference,?

You've just exposed yourself with that post boy oh boy...
 

quest

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Too many assumptions in your post. Cerny and Sony started work on this hardware over 5 years ago. Until we know real performance, not console war childish flops, we have no idea which is the better designed console or who was caught with their pants down and dick up.

Do you think they started off 5 years ago with hey lets overclock until our chip is a nuclear reactor? Did cerny watch a net burst documentary and think damn we should do that? No they got caught up in this SSD and had to cut way back on the apu. They learned ms was not screwing up any more and had to add power at any cost at the last second. So over clocked the bejesus out of it just before it explodes. They should of just bought a mid range SSD like Microsoft and used the left over money on APU die space or ram or little of both.
 
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BigLee74

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Too many assumptions in your post. Cerny and Sony started work on this hardware over 5 years ago. Until we know real performance, not console war childish flops, we have no idea which is the better designed console or who was caught with their pants down and dick up.
I think out of every PS fan on this forum, you definitely seem the most upset and defensive.

Xbox Series X specs are generally significantly superior to the PS5. Not even a question that should be asked.

PS5 has a much faster SSD, true, but I'm sure the Xbox SSD is already more than fast enough, and MS didn't spunk any more cash into its development than they needed.

Finally, anybody that claims that the PS5 3D audio solution is better than the XBOX is just 100% guessing, and it's an area that we can't tangibly measure for superiority anyway. Most people out there just hear 'sound'.

Pretty sure most PS fans would gladly swap specs right now if given the chance.
 

SonGoku

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I think its smart and they should do it but definitely a shame. For me buying a new box and the most interesting thing I can do is play a og Xbox game on ultra with a little ray tracing doesn't seem worth it? Then again i have terrible impulse control and will get both so idk.
Its convenient for them because they want to phase out gens as the console name alludes to, but i wouldn't call it smart. A gen's lead console is decided at the start, they don't want to let $100 cheaper PS5 take too much of a lead, if that happens 3rd devs will soon drop ps4/one kits in favor of next gen and they'll be caught with their pants down.

If there are no next gen experiences to justify the purchase why would anyone buy a new expensive console? it will be seen as as a replacement for the XBONEX if anything
Sony on the other hand will have PS5 exclusives available launch to showcase the new hardware potential.
 
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LittleBusters

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The Xbox Series X is more powerful,
The Playstation 5 is more interesting.

As someone who enjoyed reading up on the bespoke hardware of past generations, the Ps5 is more interesting for me given some details are still to come. The Xbox is obviously more powerful, but seems to be a case of 'what you see is what you get' and a known quantity now.

How is PS5 more interesting. XSX has VRS, machine learning, Velocity architecture. Seriously what is NOT interesting about the XSX?
 

BigLee74

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Guy above expecting 100% difference in fps for Series X despite Series X having only a 16% tflops advantage?!?!

🤣😂

What kind of delusion is spreading on these forums, that is post of the day for me. Anyway peace out you lovely people.

Any you need to stop spreading lies. It's an 18% advantage when PS5 is running in full-whack mode, and 30% when PS5 is running in its Github mode. Let's split the difference and say it might average out at 25%.

There are reasons Sony didn't give the lower rate of the GPU clocks - namely embarrassment and damage control.
 

psorcerer

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Ah, well I'll stand corrected if that turns out to be the case. But I'm only speaking in terms of if the OS handles that functionality with the expansion card itself, not the games targeting it directly. Which wouldn't be possible because devs could not count on everyone having an expansion card.

But conceptually it should be possible without needing the card to be permanently placed in the system; if the user is expecting to keep it there fore a while the OS can let them lock it to the system for a while and it can set up a profile to utilize both the internal and optional storage in tandem. When the user wants to remove the drive the system can simply disassociate the other drive's profile and the performance boosts the OS managed with it there are nullified. It should also be able to detect if the card is removed and adjust the setup accordingly.

This honestly shouldn't be too hard the only question would be if the system's flash memory controller has the bandwidth needed to handle both at once. IIRC people sniffed out a 3.5 GB/s controller that might be XSX's controller; if MS could set up such an approach you'd get reduced speed on both drives simultaneously (1.75 GB/s per drive) but overall would get close to 3.5 GB/s across both (it wouldn't ACTUALLY be 3.5 GB/s due to overhead but could be somewhere about 3 GB/s; PCIe 4.0 overhead costs are significantly reduced compared to previous implementations).

I'm not sure I understand.
Reality is pretty simple:
1. Game can only run from one device, either internal or expansion.
2. There is a high (very high) chance that expansion card will be slower.
3. It will not match the PS5 speed, forget about it. In the best case it will be 2x slower.
In the worst - close to 10x slower.
 

Caio

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Where this RAW GPU: 12.147 TF (locked) for XSX come from ? Digital Foundry said 12.155 TF. Just curious,
 

Bo_Hazem

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Ok to clear out what Mark Cerny is saying here at 10:00

(@ 10:00)


It's this intelligent technique that's been used in Horizon Zero but now it got a massive turbo (5.5GB/s raw speed). It not only works at looking in a direction, but even looking up and down! Watch at 18:15


For in-depth explanation, I advice watching this:



Conclusion: 5.5GB/s RAW, 9-11GB/s compressed IS a game changer.
 
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LittleBusters

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Any you need to stop spreading lies. It's an 18% advantage when PS5 is running in full-whack mode, and 30% when PS5 is running in its Github mode. Let's split the difference and say it might average out at 25%.

There are reasons Sony didn't give the lower rate of the GPU clocks - namely embarrassment and damage control.

If CP2077 is dropping frames on PS5 but running smooth as butter on XSX, that's going to be huge.
 

Geki-D

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How is PS5 more interesting.
How many devs are coming out and saying that XSX is more interesting? Plenty are praising the PS5, on the other hand. See, Sony just gone and removed one of the biggest bottlenecks devs have had to put up with since games moved to CD. This is why game devs are excited, because the PS5 is something new and is going to change how devs make games for the better. The XSX is just a more powerful same-as current gen console.
 
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How many devs are coming out and saying that XSX is more interesting? Plenty are praising the PS5, on the other hand. See, Sony just gone and removed one of the biggest bottlenecks devs have had to put up with since games moved to CD. This is why game devs are excited, because the PS5 is something new and is going to change how devs make games for the better. The XSX is just a more powerful same-as current gen console.

I mean, I guess you’re right but we can’t pretend like the XsX storage is slow. It’s still fast, faster than my SATA3 SSDs installed in my PC.

I dunno
 

Fnord

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Do we know that a third party SSD will have to replace the default SSD in the PS5? I kind of got the impression that the PS5 SSD would be soldered on the main board and there would be a slot for an additional SSD. No real reason to come to that conclusion (or the opposite), just the sense I got from how Cerny spoke about it.
 

Shin

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Oh, shit! I forgot that hindrance of XSX true power will continue if Lockhart (4TF) is a thing!
They could very well scrap that plan now that PlayStation have revealed the specs of PS5.
Probably why Xbox did not mention Lockhart at all from the beginning with their messaging.
It would be cheaper to eat the R&D cost that went into it than spend money on it throughout the generation.
Watching how the next gen started unfolding since last year's Wired interview and Xbox E3 2018? has been like watching a game of Chess.

CJY CJY is that you? (just saw on N4G)

 

CJY

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They could very well scrap that plan now that PlayStation have revealed the specs of PS5.
Probably why Xbox did not mention Lockhart at all from the beginning with their messaging.
It would be cheaper to eat the R&D cost that went into it than spend money on it throughout the generation.
Watching how the next gen started unfolding since last year's Wired interview and Xbox E3 2018? has been like watching a game of Chess.

CJY CJY is that you? (just saw on N4G)

No, that's not me.

Can't believe you still visit that place btw. I haven't been there in well over a decade. Used to be my go-to before GAF.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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They could very well scrap that plan now that PlayStation have revealed the specs of PS5.
Probably why Xbox did not mention Lockhart at all from the beginning with their messaging.
It would be cheaper to eat the R&D cost that went into it than spend money on it throughout the generation.
Watching how the next gen started unfolding since last year's Wired interview and Xbox E3 2018? has been like watching a game of Chess.

CJY CJY is that you? (just saw on N4G)


I would wish they scrap Lockhart, it's a good move for gaming sake on all platforms.
 
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Rolling_Start

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I could swore he said things like heavy 256avx and other taxing work loads also set it off not maxing all 8 cores.

He definitely said that AVX 256 was a big strain on the power draw. Don't think he stated if that resulted in clock drops, but it'd be reasonable to think it could be a factor in frequencies being impacted.
 
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I'm not sure I understand.
Reality is pretty simple:
1. Game can only run from one device, either internal or expansion.
2. There is a high (very high) chance that expansion card will be slower.
3. It will not match the PS5 speed, forget about it. In the best case it will be 2x slower.
In the worst - close to 10x slower.

They literally confirmed the expansion card runs at the same spec as the internal one, there is no "very high" chance of otherwise. And I didn't claim such a setup would match PS5 SSD speed, merely said under best-case scenario it would close the gap a bit more between them. That though is before accounting for overhead, latency due to trace distance travel of electrical signals etc.

Again I just entertained it as a scenario; we don't know the full details on how the SSDs, expansion storage, and external drives work with either system. It's a good thing to leave some room open for speculation versus shutting out options completely; even if you are referencing limitations in RAID 0 configurations, those are limitations within a very different environment than consoles, which can possibly take other approaches to work around such limitations. We are already seeing that with the SSDs they have customized to each other, right now.

How many devs are coming out and saying that XSX is more interesting? Plenty are praising the PS5, on the other hand. See, Sony just gone and removed one of the biggest bottlenecks devs have had to put up with since games moved to CD. This is why game devs are excited, because the PS5 is something new and is going to change how devs make games for the better. The XSX is just a more powerful same-as current gen console.

Who are the "big developers" in question who have made the statement in the first place? There are literally thousands of developers out there; even among "big" ones the number ranges around 100 or so depending on what quantifies as "big". Those could be 1st-party developers saying these comments, which might make them moot in the greater context.

Also an exchange between John (DF) and Jason on Twitter saw Jason clarify that earlier comment, saying he suspects the devs he's heard saying such are mainly referring to the SSD in PS5.
 

Geki-D

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Who are the "big developers" in question who have made the statement in the first place? There are literally thousands of developers out there; even among "big" ones the number ranges around 100 or so depending on what quantifies as "big". Those could be 1st-party developers saying these comments, which might make them moot in the greater context.
Where did I say "Big"? Try reading better, "big" devs won't take side on news like this but plenty of devs have took to Twitter and apparently told media sources that they're excited about the PS5. The XSX?; Not so much. Also love the "it must be first party devs in disguise." conspiracy.

Also an exchange between John (DF) and Jason on Twitter saw Jason clarify that earlier comment, saying he suspects the devs he's heard saying such are mainly referring to the SSD in PS5.
So literally what I said. You ok, bro? Need a break?
 
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LittleBusters

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Real devs would be looking at the entire pipeline, not just the starting point. If Sony's approach gets 4K/60fps/ultra across more games than XSX, I'll admit defeat.
 
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Let's take a look at how you can go GPU/CPU efficient with 5.5GB/s raw and 9GB/s compressed assets, if you turn around in a speed of like 0.5sec as Mark says, you'll be able to download 4GB of compressed assets! Here at 10:00


This was a good part of the presentation but there's still caveats. Mainly, the way data is stored on SSDs. If the data is compressed, then it has to be uncompressed in order to be read, and space on the drive has to be made available to write the decompressed data back to.

Then, the data has to be read, but at page level, since that's the smallest read-addressable level for data on NAND. A standard page size is about 4KB, so one of the smallest levels of granularity with data on NAND is 4KB. Comparatively, the smallest level of granularity for data to be read in volatile memory like GDDR6 is 1 byte. That's four thousand times smaller.

Also in the case of writing the data back to the SSD, it has to be done in blocks, which are MUCH larger than a 4KB page size (speaking of which, if the NAND data is being read in decompressed state by the GPU, the size of data the GPU can read on a single pass depends on how wide of a bus it has. It also depends on the width of the bus for the flash memory controller and the bus width of the NANC IC of the custom storage. This is why knowing the bandwidth number and bit size of the chip buses is as important as knowing the overall speed. TBF both Sony and MS have only mentioned speed rather than bandwidth which is annoying). So a lot of that speed in communication for data writing might be spend on constant replacing of data that does not actually need to be replaced of its own accord, but has to be necessity due to being in the same block of NAND as data that DOES need to be replaced.

So for texture data that doesn't need to be modified very much and is fairly uniform in size to the page size of the NAND on the SSD, that is where streaming the texture as v-cache will be its MOST beneficial. Even then, this is mainly for decompressed data on the drive. Otherwise there will have to be programming tricks such as duplicating altered copies of modestly changed texture data at a safe "near proximity" to the player that is read from when needed (and has to be at least read and decompressed once and then written back to the SSD), or use a combination of that plus placing texture cache in the GDDR6 for data that is expected to be frequently altered at the bit-and-byte level (or even in cases where that level of granularity isn't needed, but the speed of the GDDR6 will be more beneficial).

Where did I say "Big"? Try reading better, "big" devs won't take side on news like this but plenty of devs have took to Twitter and apparently told media sources that they're excited about the PS5. The XSX?; Not so much. Also love the "it must be first party devs in disguise." conspiracy.


So literally what I said. You ok, bro? Need a break?

Geez, calm down dude. It was an honest mistake, okay? But my points generally still stand. And it's not a "conspiracy" to imply it could be 1st-party devs making statements of such. They are also developers, are they not? So there is nothing wrong in putting them in the mix, since the devs in question are not actually specified.

Also no, that's not what you said. That's what you could've implied, but you left it open-ended enough to mean a lot of things. I simply clarified your comment and apparently you don't like that 🤷‍♂️

You didn’t mention raytracing performance.

Sorry, it slipped. I'll add it to the OP (did the numbers for it last night, DemonCleaner DemonCleaner also and the numbers check out)
 
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LittleBusters

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It seems the PS5 SSD is optimized to be able to load the next part of big open world games faster than XSX. That's where it will excel - smoother transitions in an open world game. However, Microsoft may use Ray Tracing to solve the issue. All I know is Microsoft has a lot of very talented engineers and they can figure shit out.
 
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Rolling_Start

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GPU Clock: 2.23 GHz > 1.825 GHz (Even if it drops to Cerny's implied 2.185 GHz, it still remains faster. Means PS5 can run through compute calculations up to 405 MHz faster than XSX's GPU, even if XSX can compute more calculations per cycle)

Firstly, I would like to congratulate you on the effort put into your OP!

I've listened to the parts of Cerny's talk on variable frequency a few times, and I think he was intentionally none specific. He used 2% as an example of saving 10% of power, but he didn't actually say it wouldn't drop more than that.

"We expect the GPU to spend most of it's time at or close to that [2.23 gHz] frequency and performance."


Same story for the CPU:

"Similarly running the CPU at 3 gHz was causing headaches with the old strategy. Now we run it as high as 3.5 gHz. Infact it spends most of it's time at the frequency."

Time will tell, but I think as games squeeze more and more out of the hardware - particularly as AVX 256 gets used more - we'll see increasing deviance from sustained peak boost for both CPU and GPU at the same time.

In a way this variable frequency setup front loads the PS5 to perform most competitively early in the generation. It's a really good way to make the most of your 36CU system, especially when it matters most to building up momentum in the market. There's not really a down side to implementing this once they had the chip that they did.
 

POak

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In a way this variable frequency setup front loads the PS5 to perform most competitively early in the generation. It's a really good way to make the most of your 36CU system, especially when it matters most to building up momentum in the market. There's not really a down side to implementing this once they had the chip that they did.
That's what gets me though - why didn't SONY build a system that's capable of lasting an entire generation? Microsoft seem to have done just that with its Series X! And what about durability - don't you find that this variable frequency setup may compromise PS5's durability? I'm gutted, to be honest - I'll buy a PS5 because its first-party offering can't be matched, but I'll do so with some reluctance.
 

Bonfires Down

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RAY-TRACING (forgot to post this before): 380 billion intersections > 321.441 billion intersections (XSX has larger overall RT performance but it's wider spread out over more CUs, or 7.3 billion intersections per CU. PS5's is lower RT performance but spread out narrower over lesser CUs, or 8.9 billion intersections per CU. XSX's favors wide & slow, PS5's favors narrow & fast)
Oh, the difference isn't that large then. Good. Do you know how the ray-tracing numbers compare to Nvidia GPU:s? Thanks for the writeup.
 
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Rolling_Start

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That's what gets me though - why didn't SONY build a system that's capable of lasting an entire generation? Microsoft seem to have done just that with its Series X! And what about durability - don't you find that this variable frequency setup may compromise PS5's durability? I'm gutted, to be honest - I'll buy a PS5 because its first-party offering can't be matched, but I'll do so with some reluctance.

Oh I absolutely think the PS5 will see out the generation. Probably a lot better (from a performance standpoint) than the X1/S did (and certainly from a sales POV!).

It's just that as utilisation of hardware increases it's very likely that situations that cause frequency drops will become more common and the drops will be deeper.

If Sony have done the variable frequency thing right (and I really think they will have) then durability shouldn't be a problem. One of the biggest causes of GPU failure - and the cause of the famous 360 RRoD epidemic - was mechanical stress (caused by heating and cooling) on a new type of solder - and large, fast changes in temperature caused by inadequate cooling greatly exaggerated the problem. If Sony are maintaining a constant power level, and their cooling is good enough, then the stress caused by heating and cooling is minimised.

There is the whole thing about higher voltages degrading silicon faster, but within the lifespan of a console and within the safe limits of a process I'm betting that's not going to be a significant problem at all.

I think Sony can pull this off just fine!
 
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GlassAwful

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Let's take a look at how you can go GPU/CPU efficient with 5.5GB/s raw and 9GB/s compressed assets, if you turn around in a speed of like 0.5sec as Mark says, you'll be able to download 4GB of compressed assets! Here at 10:00

Two things about this sdd viewport streaming comment. Its not exclusive to PS5 and I'll tell you why.

1. The XSeX is said to be capable of 4.8 GB/s compressed sdd loading. In half a second that gives you 2.4GB of compressed data you can swap out, just 1.6 GB shy of what Cerny said would be required for nextgen games on the ps5.

2. The XSeX features machine learning assisted smart loading of PORTIONS of assets in view with the Sampler Feedback Streaming feature. See below.

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.

I don't understand how so many are missing the point here.

This more or less means, if it works, that where the PS5 may require 4 GBs of asset data to display a changing scene, the XSeX may need no more than 2 GBs....

Meaning their streaming rate as the viewport changes would be able to keep up with what PS5 is doing because it's effectively leaner to display a scene.

Am I the only to pick up on this or did I completely misunderstand something in the I/O breakdowns?