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Lawsuit filed against EA for 'scripting outcomes' in Fifa

Dargor

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Honestly, some people are making fun of this, but if they prove that they make the game harder by script for people that don't buy shit, this can be really bad.

Cuz in my head, making things easier for people that expend money is not the same as making things harder for people that don't.
 

oldergamer

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I was playing yesterday, passed a driven low ball, it hit the opposition player's heel and looped in an unrealistic way to an unmarked attacker who promptly scored. The controls also became unresponsive and the players were running in molasses.
Classic sign of dynamic difficulty adding latency to your controls
 
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MrFunSocks

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A friend just sent this to me. I've been complaining about this exact issue in EA sports games. Had many arguments with moderators over at the EA forums




I think my thread from years ago was title Dynamic Difficulty on GAF. I hope EA is torn to shreds for this.
You're assuming that having dynamic difficulty is somehow illegal though. No one is "tricking" anyone into buying loot boxes lol. People need to take some goddamn personal responsibility for their actions. It's so incredibly easy to stop your kids from being able to buy *anything* on a console that anyone who doesn't do it deserves whatever they get.

Depending on country it definitely can be even without loot boxes being branded as gambling. Simply using these or similar tactics on purchases in general is enough to trigger relevant laws. This is a separate issue.

Ofc, it's a tactic that's running rampart in the world right now anyway, especially in the electronic/tech sector. Lack of know-how in the general public and exploiting legal loopholes sadly makes them very attractive. Think electronic devices or parts being made slower with updates or surprisingly *failing* after set periods of time.
What laws specifically?
 
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Puskas

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Sep 14, 2018
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EA are the script kiddies of gaming.

As if your players becoming a lazy single-digit IQ morons wasn’t obvious enough througout the years.

I have seen enough of FIFA to have absolutely no sympathy for people buying these games and then bitching about it.
 
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Teslerum

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You're assuming that having dynamic difficulty is somehow illegal though. No one is "tricking" anyone into buying loot boxes lol. People need to take some goddamn personal responsibility for their actions. It's so incredibly easy to stop your kids from being able to buy *anything* on a console that anyone who doesn't do it deserves whatever they get.


What laws specifically?

it has nothing to do with responsibility, if it did people would generally need to be aware of it. FIFA isn’t some niche game where you can reasonably expect that. How can you take responsibility when you just don’t know?

The problem here isn’t even lootboxes in any way, its that EA doesn’t declare dynamic difficulties. But said dynamic difficulty is used to force purchases.
As for the laws themselves, I’m not from an english speaking country so I don’t know the terminology, but mainly laws that pertain to advertisement and quality.

As an example (from my country) a painter couldn’t just suddenly use or sell me lower quality paint at the same price without declaring so, leaving me in belief I get the same quality.

Of course that example highlights why that tactic runs rampant. You would first need to know about the properties of paint to call him out on it. Gets abused by every professional, doesn’t make it right.
 
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MrFunSocks

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it has nothing to do with responsibility, if it did people would generally need to be aware of it. FIFA isn’t some niche game where you can reasonably expect that. How can you take responsibility when you just don’t know?

The problem here isn’t even lootboxes in any way, its that EA doesn’t declare dynamic difficulties. But said dynamic difficulty is used to force purchases.
As for the laws themselves, I’m not from an english speaking country so I don’t know the terminology, but mainly laws that pertain to advertisement and quality.

As an example (from my country) a painter couldn’t just suddenly use or sell me lower quality paint at the same price without declaring so, leaving me in belief I get the same quality.

Of course that example highlights why that tactic runs rampant. You would first need to know about the properties of paint to call him out on it. Gets abused by every professional, doesn’t make it right.
They need to “declare dynamic difficulties” now?! Hahaha Jesus Christ. That argument is absurd. I honestly don’t know how some people in this site will ever function in the real world.

This is something I’d expect from Reeeeee, not here.

Your paint example is terrible. They’re not selling you a difficulty. They’re not FORCING anyone to buy anything.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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It's a known reality by now. Stopped wasting my time on FUT especially I gain money and players from reselling renewal cards that made me more than 1.5M in-game currency in less than a month that made EA and happy and forced 11-concecutive losses to drop me from level 3. Even with all the mechanics making players like drunk and had won a game the made the results as - to - instead of 1-0 and made me lose forcefully, lol. That's in 2016.

EA is a shit company.
 
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Barakov

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I don't play sports games but everything I've heard about Fifa in recent years makes me think this is exactly the type of thing EA would do. Fifa seems like it's on another level of scummy than other games with lootboxes.
 

Teslerum

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They need to “declare dynamic difficulties” now?! Hahaha Jesus Christ. That argument is absurd. I honestly don’t know how some people in this site will ever function in the real world.

Ok,... ? Just fine thank you.

The real world and the law on a basic level doesn’t care about specifics or dynamic difficulties. It cares about how the law applies to them. In new situations as well.

You asked the relevant question yourself here btw:

Does the dynamic difficulty need to be declared in relation to the purchase of the digital product in question?

That’s not an easy and completely valid question. Are you allowed to degrade the percieved quality of your product in secret in order to force a purchase?
 
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MrFunSocks

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Ok,... ? Just fine thank you.

The real world and the law on a basic level doesn’t care about specifics or dynamic difficulties. It cares about how the law applies to them. In new situations as well.

You asked the relevant question yourself here btw:

Does the dynamic difficulty need to be declared in relation to the purchase of the digital product in question?

That’s not an easy and completely valid question. Are you allowed to degrade the percieved quality of your product in secret in order to force a purchase?
That’s not a valid question lol. There is no “forcing” of any purchase.
 
F

Foamy

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You know the scripting has kicked in and the inevitable goal is coming when teams start pinging the ball around like a coked up Barcelona and you can't even get close to blocking a pass or getting the ball back.
Its bullshit.
 

LMJ

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Normally I would scoff at this and file it under paranoia or circumstance(the script being a ploy for monetization) , but I can totally see EA doing this, I hope they're taken to the cleaners and the then hung to dry like the sleazy studio they've become deserves to be!
 

oldergamer

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You're assuming that having dynamic difficulty is somehow illegal though. No one is "tricking" anyone into buying loot boxes lol. People need to take some goddamn personal responsibility for their actions. It's so incredibly easy to stop your kids from being able to buy *anything* on a console that anyone who doesn't do it deserves whatever they get.


What laws specifically?
You really dont understand this? You pay for a game that pits you against other players. You pay for boosts that can help your team improve player stats. To give you a perceived edge.

Behind the scenes that game dynamically lets you win a few games, then suddenly it makes it harder for you to win as often. You then by another boost pack to improve your stats and this is where the problem comes in.

This is like slot machine logic where its controlled behind the scenes on how often you win or lose. I worked on mobile slot machine games (unreleased) where instead of the machine being random (like something governed by gambling laws), they wanted us to rig wins to create a false sense of enjoyment that would keep players engaged. Like making you more likely to win when you have lost a number of times and could stop playing. This is illegal with real slot machines and actual gambling laws. Software slot machines can get away with this only if they are not classified as actual gambling systems.

The logic behind this is all designed from data collected on the addiction to gambling. This data wasn't used to prevent gambling addiction, but instead to increase your addiction and keep you playing. This part isnt illegal, but people are assholes for using the data that way.

In the ea games, after a few wins you are less likely to get a win despite the fact you paid extra to make your players better. As you go up in rank it gets harder and harder to win without paying for boosts. it tricks you into thinking boosts have value and helps you keep winning, but really they are a form of gambling that is undeclared.

Now add in that this is a competitive multiplayer game with a hidden slot machine. Masking that its actual gambling because it makes you think its based on your skill. They refuse to mention or admit to having any logic tilting your wins (driving up retention/addiction) behind the scenes and tricking you into buying more boosts. That in itself is illegal. Something classified as gambling has to operate under different laws.

...and you think this isnt fucking bad? Whats wrong with you?
 
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Panajev2001a

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You really dont understand this? You pay for a game that pits you against other players. You pay for boosts that can help your team an improve player stats.

Behind the scene that game dynamically lets you win a few games, then suddenly it makes it harder for you to win as ofter. You then by another boost pack to improve your stats.

This is like slot machine logic. I worked on mobile slot machine games where instead of the machine being random, they wanted us to rig wins to create a false sense of enjoyment that would keep players engaged. Like making you more likely to win when you have lost a number of times in and could stop playing. This is illegal with real slot machines and actual gambling laws. Software slot machines can get away with this only if they are not classified as actual gambling systems.

The logic behind this is all designed from data collected on the addiction to gambling. This data wasn't used to prevent gambling addiction, but instead to increase your addiction and keep you playing.

In the ea games, after a few wins you are less likely to get a win despite the fact you paid extra to make your players better. As you go up in rank it gets harder and harder to win with paying for boosts. it tricks you into thinking boosts have value and help you keep winning but really they are a form of gambling.

Now add in that this is a competitive multiplayer game with hidden a hidden slot machine. Masking that its actual gambling because it makes you think its based on your skill. They refuse to mention or admit to having any logic tilting your wins (driving up retention/addiction) behind the scenes and tricking you into buying more boosts. That in itself is illegal. Something classified as gambling has to operate under different laws.

...and you think this isnt fucking bad? Whats wrong with you?

Very interesting 🧐, the part about you working on mobile slot machine games but we can leave it for PM’s if interested. That is why I prefer actually Gambling Commission regulated slot sites and offerings to this unregulated gambling like products and “social” casinos sites (not classified as RMG/gambling).

Fully agreed on the post btw, very well written!
 
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Dr.Morris79

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Lol what’s next, someone will sue them for rubber band AI in their racing games?

“Gamers” need to grow up. I’d expect the person that filed this personally likes to screech on places like Reeeeee too.
It's only 08:17 am and i've already read the stupidest thing on the internet.
 
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oldergamer

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Very interesting 🧐, the part about you working on mobile slot machine games but we can leave it for PM’s if interested. That is why I prefer actually Gambling Commission regulated slot sites and offerings to this unregulated gambling like products and “social” casinos sites (not classified as RMG/gambling).

Fully agreed on the post btw, very well written!
Thanks man, its a topic I had an interest in as i was trying for years to understand why I would have a 10 game win streak only to have a 10 game lose streak right after. I swore of EA sports games the past two years. I'm never going back due to this.

Yeah I recall a few people on the team seeing certain gambling data and refusing to have any part in the project. It was interesting. Sure PM me, we can chat more about it.
 
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About bloody time.

It's no coincidence that your team suddenly perform better after opening a few card packs in my team.

It's all designed to push you towards spending more money rather than allowing the game to be 100% skill based as it should be.

I've never played the game but I've watched videos on it. Something deffo dodgy going on.

I'm 99 percent certain similar shenanigans happens in World of tanks also. (A massively RNG driven game)
 

Dr.Morris79

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You really dont understand this? You pay for a game that pits you against other players. You pay for boosts that can help your team improve player stats. To give you a perceived edge.

Behind the scenes that game dynamically lets you win a few games, then suddenly it makes it harder for you to win as often. You then by another boost pack to improve your stats and this is where the problem comes in.

This is like slot machine logic where its controlled behind the scenes on how often you win or lose. I worked on mobile slot machine games (unreleased) where instead of the machine being random (like something governed by gambling laws), they wanted us to rig wins to create a false sense of enjoyment that would keep players engaged. Like making you more likely to win when you have lost a number of times and could stop playing. This is illegal with real slot machines and actual gambling laws. Software slot machines can get away with this only if they are not classified as actual gambling systems.

The logic behind this is all designed from data collected on the addiction to gambling. This data wasn't used to prevent gambling addiction, but instead to increase your addiction and keep you playing. This part isnt illegal, but people are assholes for using the data that way.

In the ea games, after a few wins you are less likely to get a win despite the fact you paid extra to make your players better. As you go up in rank it gets harder and harder to win without paying for boosts. it tricks you into thinking boosts have value and helps you keep winning, but really they are a form of gambling that is undeclared.

Now add in that this is a competitive multiplayer game with a hidden slot machine. Masking that its actual gambling because it makes you think its based on your skill. They refuse to mention or admit to having any logic tilting your wins (driving up retention/addiction) behind the scenes and tricking you into buying more boosts. That in itself is illegal. Something classified as gambling has to operate under different laws.

...and you think this isnt fucking bad? Whats wrong with you?
Pure filth. I hope these fuckers burn to the ground. Fucking vultures.
 
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Hitchyhero

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Even if this was slapped on the box in big bold letters,fifa fans would still buy it.

"Warning, we will nerf you and prevent you from winning so you buy more packs"

"but when is fifa 22 coming?"
 
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Dr.Morris79

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Even if this was slapped on the box in big bold letters,fifa fans would still buy it.

"Warning, we will nerf you and prevent you from winning so you buy more packs"

"but when is fifa 22 coming?"
Yep. And next year it'll be 99p bargain bin shit.
 

Vae_Victis

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This has been an open secret for years. In the Italian community (which is quite large for footbal video games) it's called "momentum", and reports about it date back to at least the X360/PS3 era.

EA always denied it, but you go and look there are dozens and dozens of reports and videos that go through how the algorithm seems to work these days, especially for online games; and sure enough there are also lots and lota of reports of incredibly lucky/glitchy goals being scored in very specific moments and instances of the match.

If the lawsuit goes through, EA might be finally forced to show how what is going on behind the curtains, so this can be proven or put to rest forever.
 

BLAUcopter

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Now sue Activision for the SBMM that carrot feeds you wins in an attempt to keep you "engaged" and addicted to the feeling of finally "winning" so you'll buy $30 gun skins.
 
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Now sue Activision for the SBMM that carrot feeds you wins in an attempt to keep you "engaged" and addicted to the feeling of finally "winning" so you'll buy $30 gun skins.
And puts you up against people using paid for weapons so you'll see how effective they are and want to buy them.
 

Inviusx

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Can someone point to a recent video where this is discussed and evidence is shown? I would like to know more.
 

oldergamer

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Sleepwalker

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It's fun for the memes and all but I don't think it really influences the outcome of your matches as much as this thread would make you think. Perhaps there is a slight adjustment here or there (although I wouldn't be entirely convinced, not for online modes anyway)

The game is kinda trash this year and was even worse last year, but it has more to do with other mechanics rather than DDA. Team pressing being a big one.

You have players go in these 100+ game winning streaks which according to the DDA talk shouldn't be possible but here we are.

I'm sure people will disagree in this thread but it is what it is. For what it's worth, i'm not going to bat for EA, I hope they lose everything and lootboxes get banned. I just don't think this is the hill to die on.
 
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oldergamer

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Also I fell into this retention trap. I was extremely addicted back in 2012. to the point where i played 2700 games online and got up to Rank 103 world wide. This technology works, and its just as addictive as gambling in casinos.
 

oldergamer

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It's fun for the memes and all but I don't think it really influences the outcome of your matches as much as this thread would make you think. Perhaps there is a slight adjustment here or there (although I wouldn't be entirely convinced, not for online modes anyway)

The game is kinda trash this year and was even worse last year, but it has more to do with other mechanics rather than DDA. Team pressing being a big one.

You have players go in these 100+ game winning streaks which according to the DDA talk shouldn't be possible but here we are.

I'm sure people will disagree in this thread but it is what it is. For what it's worth, i'm not going to bat for EA, I hope they lose everything and lootboxes get banned. I just don't think this is the hill to die on.
You're wrong. I've seen it make drastic changes in how the game plays. The idea is you shouldn't notice it, however after playing enough you see it clearly. I'm talking about things like you get a penalty and suddenly your controls are back to normal, and then the second the penalty expires you are moving in molasses. There are games where its so bad its impossible for you to get your players to move, or the opposite where you are moving around your opponent like the flash. when its working to your opponents advantage, at least in the hockey games, you will see your opponent move on a faceoff before the puck drops ( which should be impossible )
 

-Arcadia-

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I feel for sports gamers. All this crap (there’s so much more), and blatant disrespect, because they know you have no other alternative.

It’s a far cry from the golden age of sports games, where even I, as someone without a lot of interest, would want to play because of how fun the games were.

Sadly, this could all be fixed by allowing multiple licensees again, but... everyone’s getting paid. Brainlets have no problems paying. Nothing will change for the sane gamer caught inbetween.
 
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Kokoloko85

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Hopefully they get sued And fucked over.

Id love to see EA stripped of their exclusive fifa rights and have to actually produce a good game and make changes instead of doing nothing year after year and earning billions from dumb folk... Just because they have the name Fifa.

EA would die a very quick death. Then let other game studios make a decent football game
 

Sleepwalker

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You're wrong. I've seen it make drastic changes in how the game plays. The idea is you shouldn't notice it, however after playing enough you see it clearly. I'm talking about things like you get a penalty and suddenly your controls are back to normal, and then the second the penalty expires you are moving in molasses. There are games where its so bad its impossible for you to get your players to move, or the opposite where you are moving around your opponent like the flash. when its working to your opponents advantage, at least in the hockey games, you will see your opponent move on a faceoff before the puck drops ( which should be impossible )


Highly doubt you've played this crap game more than me over the years. I'm really not going to start a whole argument with you over "experience" because neither of us will make the other budge in this matter. You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong and that's probably the end of it.

Unlucky shit happens sometimes, not only in EA games but also in other sports games, truth is over 90% of losses can be avoided and can be traced down to individual mistakes. At least in FIFA. I don't play Madden or NHL so can't comment.

The one thing I can say for sure is that EA's move to dedicated servers grants a big advantage to players located in places with the lowest pings, anyone over 40 ping is kinda screwed when they play someone on 10 but that has little to do with DDA. P2P was a fairer more balanced system albeit exploitable.


Again, I'm not going to bat for EA I just don't subscribe to this particular conspiracy theory.
 

Andodalf

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Can someone point to a recent video where this is discussed and evidence is shown? I would like to know more.

Dude Trust me


DUDE LIKE FOR REAL BRO THERES NO WAY I MISSED THAT SHOT, BRO NO WAY! BRUH COME ON! A COMPANY MUST BE COMMITING CRIMES, NO WAY I MISS THAT SHOT BRO
 
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BlitzerRadic

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Depending on country it definitely can be even without loot boxes being branded as gambling. Simply using these or similar tactics on purchases in general is enough to trigger relevant laws. This is a separate issue.

Ofc, it's a tactic that's running rampart in the world right now anyway, especially in the electronic/tech sector. Lack of know-how in the general public and exploiting legal loopholes sadly makes them very attractive. Think electronic devices or parts being made slower with updates or surprisingly *failing* after set periods of time.

By your logic, Diablo 3 would be illegal and pretty much any game that uses RNG.