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Analysis Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

Bo_Hazem

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Yeah dosen't the XSS uses lower texture, lower Res, etc and the games will be smaller on XSS? Haven't seen that so far i think...

Seems like devs aren't putting that extra effort so far to differentiate between the two versions of X and S and combining them together.
 
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TBiddy

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Depends on the compression used you need to do it in software on the CPU or GPU making load times worse or potentially wasting shader cycles on decompression.

I'm not talking about decompressing real time, I'm talking about decompressing when installing the patch.
 

Bo_Hazem

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I'm not talking about decompressing real time, I'm talking about decompressing when installing the patch.

You mean final size? That shouldn't be a concern as some/most of the data should replace current ones in the main game file. So you shouldn't expect it to have that full size added over the current game size.
 
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ToadMan

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Depends on the compression used you need to do it in software on the CPU or GPU making load times worse or potentially wasting shader cycles on decompression.

For the patch itself I thought one benefit of SSD storage is that there is no need for a patch decompress-install step - the data is just deployed on the SSD, redundant data is deleted - maybe there’s a quick defrag. That was something Cerny spoke about in his thing - that patching would be different.

So if that’s correct what we’re looking at is game data in its deployed format already - I don’t think that can be usefully compressed further...
 
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Gatox

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So theres a 30%ish size difference between PS4/Xbox One and a 40%ish difference PS5/Xbox Series X/S? What's the reason for the difference on the last gen machines?
 

Foorbits

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So theres a 30%ish size difference between PS4/Xbox One and a 40%ish difference PS5/Xbox Series X/S? What's the reason for the difference on the last gen machines?
Everyone here is making an assumption that all the patches are exactly the same with the only difference being how they are compressed.
 
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TonyK

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Then I don't understand how it's possible to see texture loading when fast travelling in Demon's Souls (in quality mode).
 
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Gatox

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Everyone here is making an assumption that all the patches are exactly the same with the only difference being how they are compressed.
But does the fact there is a difference in both generations thats fairly similar not argue against that, and show that the patches are different sizes as they are different patches?
 
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Smaller patch sizes don't mean much. could be very well xbox packs all patches together while ps5 does not and downloads them seperate. Or both systems have different files they are working on.

What's more interesting is to look at what the total file size is at the end of the day of the game itself.

For example gog and steam file sizes are often completely different with patches. It has nothing to do with compression everything to do with data included.
 
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Heisenberg007

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If this trend continues that means that 605GB left will have the same/better overall breathing room as the XSX 802GB, but the XSS will be the worst deal with only 364GB left.
That's what I said when I started that Control UE File Size thread!

Also, I totally forgot to mention when I created that thread that Control PS5 version also has 200 Game Help videos that the XSX version doesn't have. Now, I'm not 100% sure if all of the 200+ videos are 100% online or some or all parts of those videos are stored locally.

If it's the latter, that compression and file size become all the more impressive.

Edit: Also, is it 605 or 667 GB?
 
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TBiddy

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Uhm, then it makes less sense... why would you not be able to decompress them in software?!

Thats my question. Why wouldn't the devs compress them as much as possible in order to minimize patch size and let the files be decompressed during installation?
 
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Riky

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Yeah dosen't the XSS uses lower texture, lower Res, etc and the games will be smaller on XSS? Haven't seen that so far i think...

Gears Of War 5 and Forza Horizon 4 are substantially smaller on Series S to name just two.

Also the final file size is what is important storage wise, not the size of the patch, only affects people with bandwidth caps or slow internet.
 
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Heisenberg007

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Seems like devs aren't putting that extra effort so far to differentiate between the two versions of X and S and combining them together.
I don't think that's the case. I think it would work like it does in PC games.

You get a fixed set of files that amount to a certain size. Whatever resolution and graphic settings you select and play the game at won't change/delete the file size/files. X and S might be working the same way. I could be wrong though.
 
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Mr Moose

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So theres a 30%ish size difference between PS4/Xbox One and a 40%ish difference PS5/Xbox Series X/S? What's the reason for the difference on the last gen machines?
Lower quality textures or something maybe, so a slightly reduced size compared to current gen.
If this is using Kraken compression methods for PS5, it might also be using them for PS4 (since it's licensed for both PS4 and PS5).
 
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Allandor

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Gears Of War 5 and Forza Horizon 4 are substantially smaller on Series S to name just two.

Also the final file size is what is important storage wise, not the size of the patch, only affects people with bandwidth caps or slow internet.
Gears 5 ist also much smaller on XsX vs PC. It is ~50GB (XsX) vs >100GB (PC). And that is since the last big patch.
Seems like they really get rid of many duplicate stuff from the old packaging pipeline (that are necessary for HDDs).

This has nothing to do with compression so far, as on a PC you could use any compression tech, as everything is done via CPU. Just plain removal of duplicates because with SSDs reading small files/parts won't cripple your bandwidth.
 
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Heisenberg007

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Thats my question. Why wouldn't the devs compress them as much as possible in order to minimize patch size and let the files be decompressed during installation?
Not sure why they couldn't do it during installation. I think the more logical answer would be:
  • Either the PS5 version needed fewer things to be patched, hence the smaller size, or
  • The files on the PS5 version are smaller (compared to the XSX, as we saw with Control), so to replace those files (patching), the new files are also smaller (if that makes sense?)
On the other hand, during gameplay (not installation), it makes more sense that XSX may not be able to decompress as fast as the PS5, so devs could do away with a smaller (heavily compressed) file size on the PS5, e.g., Control.

During installation, though, that's anybody's guess atm.
 

Bo_Hazem

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So theres a 30%ish size difference between PS4/Xbox One and a 40%ish difference PS5/Xbox Series X/S? What's the reason for the difference on the last gen machines?

Sony has licensed both Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture for both PS4 and PS5. Oodle Kraken compression can work on ZLIB decompressors, and still faster than ZLIB when decompressed in the CPU by 297%. With PS5's dedicated Kraken decompressor, that 297% should be amplified.

That's what I said when I started that Control UE File Size thread!

Also, I totally forgot to mention when I created that thread that Control PS5 version also has 200 Game Help videos that the XSX version doesn't have. Now, I'm not 100% sure if all of the 200+ videos are 100% online or some or all parts of those videos are stored locally.

If it's the latter, that compression and file size become all the more impressive.

Edit: Also, is it 605 or 667 GB?

Thanks, corrected it.

Then I don't understand how it's possible to see texture loading when fast travelling in Demon's Souls (in quality mode).

Because it's not light speed, nor instant. Also it's still using LOD system with 5-7 levels.

But does the fact there is a difference in both generations thats fairly similar not argue against that, and show that the patches are different sizes as they are different patches?

Yes, PS4 has different patches indeed, but it's more likely to add more than replace vs PS5 version in the final game size due to HDD replicas.
 
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cragarmi

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That's what I said when I started that Control UE File Size thread!

Also, I totally forgot to mention when I created that thread that Control PS5 version also has 200 Game Help videos that the XSX version doesn't have. Now, I'm not 100% sure if all of the 200+ videos are 100% online or some or all parts of those videos are stored locally.

If it's the latter, that compression and file size become all the more impressive.

Edit: Also, is it 605 or 667 GB?
I'm quite sure that the help videos are all online, but it's impressive none the less
 
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Rudius

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Indeed, especially as PS5 already has the better performance for the same assets on current gen consoles. Seems like the compression tools are only getting to developers recently, with Control and now this AC Valhalla patches showing it.



Actual storage on PS5 is 667GB* (corrected), on XSX I think 802GB, and 364GB for XSS. So every file shed would be useful indeed.
On PS5 Astro's Playroom takes up 11GB, so if you delete it the usable space is 678GB. You can re-download Astro's.
 

DarkMage619

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Is compression the solution to not allowing PS5 games to be saved on external drives? Maybe that's why MS allows it because their compression isn't as good. Smaller game sizes may also be the reason Sony doesn't appear to be in a hurry to enable the internal NVME bay.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Is compression the solution to not allowing PS5 games to be saved on external drives? Maybe that's why MS allows it because their compression isn't as good. Smaller game sizes may also be the reason Sony doesn't appear to be in a hurry to enable the internal NVME bay.

Has nothing to do with that or they'll be impossible to download from internet servers (digital games). External NVMe m.2 even at 7GB/s speeds are still inferior from a design perspective, it's just impossible to provide the same experience without throttling. Also the 2 priority levels vs PS5's SSD that has 6 is another massive deficiency.

For external storage it's still a joke, maybe they noticed that the games can be cracked and emulated on PC? Not sure, but it simply doesn't make sense.
 
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Has nothing to do with that or they'll be impossible to download from internet servers (digital games). External NVMe m.2 even at 7GB/s speeds are still inferior from a design perspective, it's just impossible to provide the same experience without throttling. Also the 2 priority levels vs PS5's SSD that has 6 is another massive deficiency.

For external storage it's still a joke, maybe they noticed that the games can be cracked and emulated on PC? Not sure, but it simply doesn't make sense.

The PS5s I/O is a blessing and a curse. It's great that it's heavily customized and pretty advanced but it's a shame that many SSDs can't be used in it due to that. I'm hoping that Sony gives us a list of supported drives soon.

With that said I'm definitely getting a cheapo 1TB external for all my PS4 games. There's really not much benefit to using an external SSD besides faster load times. Although I do wish they would let us use externals to store PS5 data (games + saves) in the near future.
 

Bo_Hazem

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The PS5s I/O is a blessing and a curse. It's great that it's heavily customized and pretty advanced but it's a shame that many SSDs can't be used in it due to that. I'm hoping that Sony gives us a list of supported drives soon.

With that said I'm definitely getting a cheapo 1TB external for all my PS4 games. There's really not much benefit to using an external SSD besides faster load times. Although I do wish they would let us use externals to store PS5 data (games + saves) in the near future.

I would rather make it for only shifting games in and out of the main SSD to the NVMe if needed, but can download them back within 10-35min so I don't think I really need to upgrade. Personally, I think the only solution for Sony is to release its own SSD with the same characteristics of the internal one, and 825GB only. They can sell it for PC as well, just like their wacky 160GB CFexpress memory card instead of 128GB which suggests similar customizations.
 
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DarkMage619

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Has nothing to do with that or they'll be impossible to download from internet servers (digital games). External NVMe m.2 even at 7GB/s speeds are still inferior from a design perspective, it's just impossible to provide the same experience without throttling. Also the 2 priority levels vs PS5's SSD that has 6 is another massive deficiency.

For external storage it's still a joke, maybe they noticed that the games can be cracked and emulated on PC? Not sure, but it simply doesn't make sense.
Technically X|S games can't be run off of external storage either but could be placed there temporarily until you are ready to play them again. I wonder why PS5 couldn't do this as well. It would be the easiest way to deal with the lack of NVME upgrades.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Technically X|S games can't be run off of external storage either but could be placed there temporarily until you are ready to play them again. I wonder why PS5 couldn't do this as well. It would be the easiest way to deal with the lack of NVME upgrades.

Simply put: it's unacceptable and it's not rocket science. If they don't come out and say why it only sounds like an extremely shitty move. Do I personally need it? No, but many with physical discs and slow internet would need that if they have many games.
 

Rudius

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Some people on Reddit said that with yesterday's update No Man's Sky is now smaller. That's the PS4 version. I played it in VR on PS5 and the loadings seemed shorter than the on the last patch, which improved the resolution of the VR version.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Some people on Reddit said that with yesterday's update No Man's Sky is now smaller. That's the PS4 version. I played it in VR on PS5 and the loadings seemed shorter than the on the last patch, which improved the resolution of the VR version.

Benefits are starting to show up indeed! Thanks for your feedback.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Resident Evil Village comes in at just over 35 GB, according to its Microsoft Store listing.





The game is 28% larger on Xbox Series X|S? Let's wait for the official numbers though from PS5.
 

FranXico

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Also, I totally forgot to mention when I created that thread that Control PS5 version also has 200 Game Help videos that the XSX version doesn't have. Now, I'm not 100% sure if all of the 200+ videos are 100% online or some or all parts of those videos are stored locally.
If I'm not mistaken, help videos are always streamed. I mean, the feature is paywalled behind PS+, why wouldn't they?
 
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Heisenberg007

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Resident Evil Village comes in at just over 35 GB, according to its Microsoft Store listing.





The game is 28% larger on Xbox Series X|S? Let's wait for the official numbers though from PS5.
Yeah, I noticed it a few hours ago. Waiting for official numbers though.

Many people didn't accept the file size difference in Control even after official numbers, so as of now, this news has no hope 😛
 

Elog

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I am not sure why people are mixing compression algorithms that are usable across generations and hardware decompression that allows for expanded VRAM from an SSD.

Sony has clearly licensed a great package of software decompression tools that can be unpacked by any software/CPU combo - with faster and higher decompression ratio than what they had before (i.e. all the benefits we now see even on the PS4).

The hardware decompression block is mainly about loading files in the millisecond range into VRAM, i.e. to allow for dynamic handling of high-resolution textures. It is not to reduce load times of the executable or levels. I believe the only title where we have seen some benefit from this is in Demon's Souls but ultimately no title has fully utilised this yet. Looking forward to it!

Edit: And of course MS has good decompression algorithms as well - my belief is that what will end up slightly problematic for MS is that the Xbox fundamentally sits with the Windows file system which by now is an historical and cumbersome remnant but would required some serious open heart surgery for MS to change in the Windows eco-system (and hence they have not so far).
 
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Tchu-Espresso

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Resident Evil Village comes in at just over 35 GB, according to its Microsoft Store listing.





The game is 28% larger on Xbox Series X|S? Let's wait for the official numbers though from PS5.
Cool, if that trend keeps up Microsoft will have shortly have a less usable HDD despite it being 15% larger.

Pretty cool right?
 
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sxodan

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Resident Evil Village comes in at just over 35 GB, according to its Microsoft Store listing.





The game is 28% larger on Xbox Series X|S? Let's wait for the official numbers though from PS5.
It's says 15 GB on Microsoft Store?

 
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Bo_Hazem

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I hope Activision do something like this for the cod franchise. Coldwar and warzone are taking up 200gb on my PS5 and it's a joke in my opinion.

Yeah they are the worst in the business in that regard, a very small game yet massive in game size! I can their game sizes go to normal when they fully utilize current gen and ditch last gen/HDD.
 

Bo_Hazem

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It's says 15 GB on Microsoft Store?

That's "Verse":

An updated Microsoft Store listing indicates that Resident Evil Village is set to have surprisingly moderate storage requirements. According to the store listing, Resident Evil Village and the bundled Re: Verse multiplayer will come in roughly 50 GB. Resident Evil Village alone takes up just 35 GB of space. Meanwhile, the PS5 version of the game seems to clock in at an even smaller 27 GB.

 

sxodan

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That's "Verse":

An updated Microsoft Store listing indicates that Resident Evil Village is set to have surprisingly moderate storage requirements. According to the store listing, Resident Evil Village and the bundled Re: Verse multiplayer will come in roughly 50 GB. Resident Evil Village alone takes up just 35 GB of space. Meanwhile, the PS5 version of the game seems to clock in at an even smaller 27 GB.

It seems that RE Verse is not included in the PS5 file size.
 

Shmunter

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That's "Verse":

An updated Microsoft Store listing indicates that Resident Evil Village is set to have surprisingly moderate storage requirements. According to the store listing, Resident Evil Village and the bundled Re: Verse multiplayer will come in roughly 50 GB. Resident Evil Village alone takes up just 35 GB of space. Meanwhile, the PS5 version of the game seems to clock in at an even smaller 27 GB.

35gig on XsX is still pretty respectable. But yeah, PS5 doing it even better.
 

v_iHuGi

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35gig on XsX is still pretty respectable. But yeah, PS5 doing it even better.
DEVS are now getting familiar with the great tools both next gen systems come with, alongside the fast SSD we should see games starting to get smaller even though they are bigger & look much better.
 

Dinky

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All this technical stuff is great and all, but all I'm seeing is same games with slightly better graphics.
 
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Zoro7

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All this technical stuff is great and all, but all I'm seeing is same games with slightly better graphics.
Not even sure what the point of this post was.

I was initially worried id run out of space on my PS5 but it’s been fine so fare. I don’t play more than a game or 2 at a time. Haven’t had to delete a game unless I was completely done with it.