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Analysis Kraken Vs ZLIB: 29% Smaller Game Sizes Losslessly, 297% Faster Decompression on PS5

Negotiator101

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Above all of that Sony has already licensed Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture for all PS5/PS4 devs so they can use them for free. Now with Epic Games having RAD Tools under their sleeves it'll make it the obvious choice across the board. It's pretty likely to throw BCPack and ZLIB out of the window for all 3rd party devs.
Yeah and above all that they'll probably stop making Xbox games altogether....... And I don't know what I'm talking about just like all the other fanboys 😅 complete nonsense.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Yo why this guy is banned?

Hes correct ( in the recent control size comparison)

I think he was being sarcastic. He's mostly a Sony guy, also I suspect he read all the OP to post a proper answer. Also speaking of milk, this is a long life milk.

Actually 29% Kraken advantage over ZLIB is just for general data losslessly, Oodle Texture has just amplified that to 42% as Oodle Texture can compress up to 50% yet it's extremely hard to distinguish from raw texture. You can push further up to 97% with very impressive results and minor detail loss if you go check out the official website example.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Yeah and above all that they'll probably stop making Xbox games altogether....... And I don't know what I'm talking about just like all the other fanboys 😅 complete nonsense.

ZLIB is free, open source. PS4 and all XSX have ZLIB decompressors. Oodle Kraken needs to be licensed, and Sony licensed that for PS5 and PS4 so devs use it for free, but PS4 is using HDD so it needs more duplicates sitting at 39GB vs 42GB on XSX|S. If you don't understand what's going on here take a deep breath and start reading.
 
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Negotiator101

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I think he was being sarcastic. He's mostly a Sony guy, also I suspect he read all the OP to post a proper answer. Also speaking of milk, this is a long life milk.

Actually 29% Kraken advantage over ZLIB is just for general data losslessly, Oodle Texture has just amplified that to 42% as Oodle Texture can compress up to 50% yet it's extremely hard to distinguish from raw texture. You can push further up to 97% with very impressive results and minor detail loss if you go check out the official website example.
You know what I think you're being conservative, I think they can push it even further to a 100% it's only 3% more! I've heard a rumour so don't quote me on this but I've heard..... The compression in the PS5 is so good that Cerny compressed himself! He can now work from the inside to push things even further.
 

Bo_Hazem

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You know what I think you're being conservative, I think they can push it even further to a 100% it's only 3% more! I've heard a rumour so don't quote me on this but I've heard..... The compression in the PS5 is so good that Cerny compressed himself! He can now work from the inside to push things even further.

You know that there are many great texture/photo compression methods? Some reaching 98% while barely hurting the final image quality. It's not just gaming, also JPG is a massive compression over raw files yet they mostly look very good when done right and pushing photos from like 10-15MB to around 500KB in a 12MP photo. So relax.
 
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Panajev2001a

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You know what I think you're being conservative, I think they can push it even further to a 100% it's only 3% more! I've heard a rumour so don't quote me on this but I've heard..... The compression in the PS5 is so good that Cerny compressed himself! He can now work from the inside to push things even further.
This topic is really pushing your buttons eh ;)?
 

Bo_Hazem

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You guys are hilarious.

Here, another compression app that's not game-related. Going up to 77% reduction and it's still near impossible to differentiate:


And for Oodle Texture, go down and check out the example of going all the way to ~97% size reduction combined with Oodle Kraken:

 
Sep 18, 2019
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ZLIB is free, open source. PS4 and all XSX have ZLIB decompressors. Oodle Kraken needs to be licensed, and Sony licensed that for PS5 and PS4 so devs use it for free, but PS4 is using HDD so it needs more duplicates sitting at 39GB vs 42GB on XSX|S. If you don't understand what's going on here take a deep breath and start reading.
In Control they most probably don't use Kraken compression because otherwise the loading times would be much lower than that. They all seem limited by the CPU here with virtually the same loading times.

I think the size difference is related to the use of oodle textures on PS5 (because it's free to use there).
 
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Bo_Hazem

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In Control they most probably don't use Kraken compression because otherwise the loading times would be much lower than that. They all seem limited by the CPU here with virtually the same loading times.

I think the size difference is related to the use of oodle textures on PS5 (because it's free to use there).

I think the game is still a 2019 game, so even with Kraken it won't be as instant as PS first party games that are built around PS5. But that can still be true.
 
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I think the game is still a 2019 game, so even with Kraken it won't be as instant as PS first party games that are built around PS5. But that can still be true.
With Kraken compression, the loadings will be much faster on PS5. Look at Nioh2 loading times.
PS4 (CPU + HDD): 13s
PS5 BC & multiplats legacy (CPU + SSD): 8s
PS5 native (Kraken + SSD): 2s


Most multiplats on PS5 (like Control) are in the second category (CPU + SSD).

 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
With Kraken compression, the loadings will be much faster on PS5. Look at Nioh2 loading times.
PS4 (CPU + HDD): 13s
PS5 BC & multiplats legacy (CPU + SSD): 8s
PS5 native (Kraken + SSD): 2s


Most multiplats on PS5 (like Control) are in the second category (CPU + SSD).



Damn, that's fast.

is there a pc comparison for loading?
 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
This chap is a very popular streamer, i would imagine he has a good pc with an ssd in it.
This might not be an exact match, but maybe it gives some idea of what it's like on the pc,

Early access of Nioh 2.

At 1.17 he starts to load into the game, 1.29 he is playing, 12 seconds.

The map also looks the same from the ps5 2-second loading one.

 
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Lysandros

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With Kraken compression, the loadings will be much faster on PS5. Look at Nioh2 loading times.
PS4 (CPU + HDD): 13s
PS5 BC & multiplats legacy (CPU + SSD): 8s
PS5 native (Kraken + SSD): 2s


Most multiplats on PS5 (like Control) are in the second category (CPU + SSD).

To be fair the game is very fast loading already with PS4+HDD/SDD. With that hardware heavy I/O complex and very fast SSD of PS5 i would like to see a third party game loading north of a minute to load in 3-5 seconds instead. I still maintain a slight hope about the matter for the future despite some (very) disappointing actual results.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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With Kraken compression, the loadings will be much faster on PS5. Look at Nioh2 loading times.
PS4 (CPU + HDD): 13s
PS5 BC & multiplats legacy (CPU + SSD): 8s
PS5 native (Kraken + SSD): 2s


Most multiplats on PS5 (like Control) are in the second category (CPU + SSD).


That makes sense, also Remedy is a small studio.
 
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TBiddy

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Stupid question, maybe, but why would compression influence patch sizes? I assume the XSX can decompress the same files as the PS5. The PS5 is just faster at it.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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8 GB smaller patch size on PS5 vs XSX, very interesting.

Indeed, especially as PS5 already has the better performance for the same assets on current gen consoles. Seems like the compression tools are only getting to developers recently, with Control and now this AC Valhalla patches showing it.

Like what I'm seeing. Control, this and maybe others to come. If this continues then the PS5 will have more internal storage than the X. Now Sony need to start with the expandable SSD compatibility hopefully soon.

Actual storage on PS5 is 667GB* (678GB with Astro's Playroom deleted) (corrected), on XSX I think 802GB, and 364GB for XSS. So every file shed would be useful indeed.
 
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mejin

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Another example of superior compression? Thanks to Rea Rea for sharing.



74.7% smaller update on PS5 vs Xbox Series S|X.

Another example of superior compression? Thanks to Rea Rea for sharing.



74.7% smaller update on PS5 vs Xbox Series S|X.

Cerny was really thinking beyond once again. PS5 is not the best of an old tech, but bring new ones to the table.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Stupid question, maybe, but why would compression influence patch sizes? I assume the XSX can decompress the same files as the PS5. The PS5 is just faster at it.

Textures are compressed differently and using different methods. Using Kraken + Oodle Texture on PS5/PS4 while using ZLIB + BCPack on XSX|S. It's already licensed for PS4/5 devs, so to use Kraken + Oodle Textures on xbox devs must buy a license or MS provides it to them like Sony did. Compressing the same files like PS5 might not decompress properly/fast enough and could result in into bad LOD lag or worse pop-ins. Also CPU has some work on XSX|S vs totally independent decompressor on PS5 so it can hurt framerates on XSX|S.

74.7% smaller would mean the PS5 patch is 5 GB. Your math is off.

It's 74.7% bigger on XSX:

Cerny was really thinking beyond once again. PS5 is not the best of an old tech, but bring new ones to the table.

Indeed, he really made a great design along with the Sony design team.
 
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TBiddy

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42.75% smaller ^



Different compression methods give different results. Like ZIP vs RAR and stuff.

Yeah I know, but what's stopping the devs from compressing with the same method in the patch and then decompressing to a format the XSX can support in games?

Unless, of course, the XSX simply can't decompress said files.

quick math lecture: it's ((1953-1118)/1953)*100 = 42.7%

Indeed. Some people have issues with percentages. The XSX version is 65.5% bigger, while the PS5 version is 42.7% smaller. Give or take.
 
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Mr Moose

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Textures are compressed differently and using different methods. Using Kraken + Oodle Texture on PS5/PS4 while using ZLIB + BCPack on XSX|S. It's already licensed for PS4/5 devs, so to use Kraken + Oodle Textures on xbox devs must buy a license or MS provides it to them like Sony did. Compressing the same files like PS5 might not decompress properly/fast enough and could result in into bad LOD lag or worse pop-ins. Also CPU has some work on XSX|S vs totally independent decompressor on PS5 so it can hurt framerates on XSX|S.



Yes, checked again and maybe I used the PS4 version by mistake, it's 65.5%:





Indeed, he really made a great design along with the Sony design team.
Your math was kinda correct but the wrong way around, it's Xbox is 74.7% larger, PS5 is 42.75% smaller.

Yeah I know, but what's stopping the devs from compressing with the same method in the patch and then decompressing to a format the XSX can support in games?

Unless, of course, the XSX simply can't decompress said files.

Gotta pay for Kraken stuff on Series X/S, free on PS5.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Yeah I know, but what's stopping the devs from compressing with the same method in the patch and then decompressing to a format the XSX can support in games?

Unless, of course, the XSX simply can't decompress said files.



Indeed. Some people have issues with percentages. The XSX version is 65.5% bigger, while the PS5 version is 42.7% smaller. Give or take.
Depends on the compression used you need to do it in software on the CPU or GPU making load times worse or potentially wasting shader cycles on decompression.
 
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Slowly but surely we're starting to see devs start to trickle in the benefits of that I/O.... whether that be game install sizes, patch sizes, instant loading etc...

But that's just some of the immediate benefits. The dream, as Cerny would say is when game design starts to change as a result of this hardware. I think we'll get a taste of that with Ratchet and Clank: RIft Apart soon.

We can only go up. Never to look back.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Slowly but surely we're starting to see devs start to trickle in the benefits of that I/O.... whether that be game install sizes, patch sizes, instant loading etc...

We can only go up.

Yes seems the compression tools are just arriving as now Control is 68% bigger on XSX vs PS5 (42GB vs 25GB) and now this update. Along with 297% faster decompression that is HW accelerated to go even faster it means less assets are needed at a time on the RAM as you can stream much faster, not to mention up to 266% slower I/O on XSX when both reach their peak (6GB/s vs 22GB/s).
 
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scydrex

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If this trend continues that means that 605GB left will have the same/better overall breathing room as the XSX 802GB, but the XSS will be the worst deal with only 364GB left.

Yeah dosen't the XSS uses lower texture, lower Res, etc and the games will be smaller on XSS? Haven't seen that so far i think...
 
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