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Kraken benchmarks, perf analysis (with and without RDO). What PS5 hardware will be capable of.

Thirty7ven

Sony make cringe trainers.
Apr 13, 2020
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Cerny is actually an independent contractor who consults for Sony. It's interesting that they rely so much on him and he's not even an employee, but it's worked wonders for them and Cerny likes the arrangement as it gives him alot more freedom than an employee would have.

It was actually Cerny who approached Sony with a vision. He has history with PlayStation and is a big fan, which is why I think Sony relies so much on him. It’s great when you have a genius who just so happens to love the history behind the hardware he’s working on, instead of a mercenary.
 

iamvin22

Industry Verified
Jan 22, 2010
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Cerny is actually an independent contractor who consults for Sony. It's interesting that they rely so much on him and he's not even an employee, but it's worked wonders for them and Cerny likes the arrangement as it gives him alot more freedom than an employee would have.

Guess you are right I see him on Sony campus all the time.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
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Does it even matter when the system only has 16 gb ram?

It matters MORE when you have less RAM. The PC will be able to run next gen games by way of higher RAM requirements and the traditional method of packing RAM with idle assets that may or may not be used, but on the PS5 you can swap out the entire working set of ~14GB practically every second. Continually streaming in and out what you'll need within a second or two of gameplay, that takes the RAM pressure bottleneck off.
 

truth411

Member
May 19, 2014
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So before Oodle Texture was announced, the comparison was like this:

PS5 - Kraken for all data compression

XSX - BCPack for textures, ZLIB for all other data and further compresses the BCPack compressed textures

Kraken compresses data about 10% better than ZLIB, but also decompresses much faster when using similar hardware resources. BCPack resulted in XSX having a higher compression ratio overall, but still falling behind because the PS5 starts with a much higher raw SSD speed to begin with. Oodle Texture is a BCPack equivalent in terms of the pipeline. So now the comparison looks like this:

PS5 - Oodle Texture for textures, Kraken for all other data and further compresses the Oodle Texture compressed textures

XSX - BCPack for textures, ZLIB for all other data and further compresses the BCPack compressed textures

If you go and look at Lamda 40 (the highest texture compression ratio for Oodle Texture) samples on Oodle's website you will see that although it is lossy compression, to the naked eye the difference is nearly imperceptible especially compared to other lossy compressors. Given this I expect developers will routinely use either Lamda 30 or 40 level of compression.

What does this mean for PS5 games? It means if a developer chooses to go with the max level of compression possible using Oodle Texture and Kraken, they can rely on a system that was built to take full advantage of that with hardware decompression that can keep up with that speed because of its ability to decode data at 22 GB/s max. Another benefit is that game sizes can be smaller, although this is somewhat counteracted by the need for an increase in quality and quantity of assets. I suspect that bigger and better looking games will ultimately land at around the same size as they are currently because of higher compression and the elimination of a need to duplicate data on the SSD for faster data access times. As for how the speed directly benefits games, I suspect that it will take awhile for game engines and developers to implement ways to use the full speed available here, especially as Oodle Texture just released. At a minimum we should see faster loading, little to no pop in, much higher levels of texture detail, new gameplay options, and with time, games that ultimately surpass the UE5 demo level of fidelity. Exciting times ahead!
Great summary, thanks.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
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Someone help me, I'm dumb.

Layman's terms...

That shit's lightning fast, son!

 
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Jaxcellent

Member
Sep 8, 2019
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The PS5 will be an absolute beast, these numbers are insane, now I understand why Horizon looked so damn amazing, it will just render the Full res model and 4K textures all the time, because it can with that kinda bandwith, and it only has to do so when it's in view.. this is amazing tech, I can't wait until they unleach this on VR.
 
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Xdrive05

Member
Nov 1, 2005
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There does seem to be a very substantial gap between both systems’ I/O performance. It seems clear that PS5’s is fast enough that it can effectively leverage the hard drive to feed the RAM in real time gameplay in a way that Series X probably can’t even come close.

Hopefully Microsoft’s solution will not hold us back from the SSD = virtualized RAM future that we want engines to be designed around. I do believe their solution is no slouch so hopefully it can provide the same kind of function even if at half the speed or whatever.

Edit: also, how are mainstream gaming PCs going to bloody hell catch up to this thing? It seems like they can either double the RAM requirements to need 32 GB for every next generation game, or they have to start soldering SSDs to every mainstream GPU or something like that.
 
Last edited:

JonnyMP3

Member
May 31, 2020
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There does seem to be a very substantial gap between both systems’ I/O performance. It seems clear that PS5’s is fast enough that it can effectively leverage the hard drive to feed the RAM in real time gameplay in a way that Series X probably can’t even come close.

Hopefully Microsoft’s solution will not hold us back from the SSD = virtualized RAM future that we want engines to be designed around. I do believe their solution is no slouch so hopefully it can provide the same kind of function even if at half the speed or whatever.

Edit: also, how are mainstream gaming PCs going to bloody hell catch up to this thing? It seems like they can either double the RAM requirements to need 32 GB for every next generation game, or they have to start soldering SSDs to every mainstream GPU or something like that.
A complete redo of motherboard design, probably.
 

GreyHand23

Member
Mar 21, 2020
370
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There does seem to be a very substantial gap between both systems’ I/O performance. It seems clear that PS5’s is fast enough that it can effectively leverage the hard drive to feed the RAM in real time gameplay in a way that Series X probably can’t even come close.

Hopefully Microsoft’s solution will not hold us back from the SSD = virtualized RAM future that we want engines to be designed around. I do believe their solution is no slouch so hopefully it can provide the same kind of function even if at half the speed or whatever.

Edit: also, how are mainstream gaming PCs going to bloody hell catch up to this thing? It seems like they can either double the RAM requirements to need 32 GB for every next generation game, or they have to start soldering SSDs to every mainstream GPU or something like that.

We have yet to see what Sampler Feedback Streaming really is and what its actual benefits are compared to other solutions. If it really is a 2.5x multiplier for textures then it could bridge the gap somewhat.
 

cyber69

Member
Sep 21, 2018
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We have yet to see what Sampler Feedback Streaming really is and what its actual benefits are compared to other solutions. If it really is a 2.5x multiplier for textures then it could bridge the gap somewhat.

Agreed. Similar to how Xbox 1s ESRAM bridged the gap.
 

GreyHand23

Member
Mar 21, 2020
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Agreed. Similar to how Xbox 1s ESRAM bridged the gap.

I think similarly to that it will be harder to get the full performance out of this IO solution compared to Sony's implementation. It also seems to me that SFS can be limited by different rendering techniques that may mitigate its advantages.
 

psorcerer

Banned
May 1, 2012
2,479
3,535
1,035
BCPack and Oodle Texture + Oodle BC7Prep + Kraken (the latter requires extra decompression at runtime on the CPU or in an optimised fast async compute shader, reference decoder provided by Oodle)... I suspect MS built a HW decoder that essentially implements what Oodle does to decode those two pre-processing steps

AFAIK, RDO prep stages run at the ecryption time. Can be decrypted with the same Kraken afterwards.
 

SplunkyMunkey

Member
Mar 22, 2020
217
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The PS5 will be an absolute beast, these numbers are insane, now I understand why Horizon looked so damn amazing, it will just render the Full res model and 4K textures all the time, because it can with that kinda bandwith, and it only has to do so when it's in view.. this is amazing tech, I can't wait until they unleach this on VR.

Not only that even at a low resolution considering how fast the io is on ps5 it could possibly stream 8k assets
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sep 30, 2019
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So before Oodle Texture was announced, the comparison was like this:

PS5 - Kraken for all data compression

XSX - BCPack for textures, ZLIB for all other data and further compresses the BCPack compressed textures

Kraken compresses data about 10% better than ZLIB, but also decompresses much faster when using similar hardware resources. BCPack resulted in XSX having a higher compression ratio overall, but still falling behind because the PS5 starts with a much higher raw SSD speed to begin with. Oodle Texture is a BCPack equivalent in terms of the pipeline. So now the comparison looks like this:

PS5 - Oodle Texture for textures, Kraken for all other data and further compresses the Oodle Texture compressed textures

XSX - BCPack for textures, ZLIB for all other data and further compresses the BCPack compressed textures

If you go and look at Lamda 40 (the highest texture compression ratio for Oodle Texture) samples on Oodle's website you will see that although it is lossy compression, to the naked eye the difference is nearly imperceptible especially compared to other lossy compressors. Given this I expect developers will routinely use either Lamda 30 or 40 level of compression.

What does this mean for PS5 games? It means if a developer chooses to go with the max level of compression possible using Oodle Texture and Kraken, they can rely on a system that was built to take full advantage of that with hardware decompression that can keep up with that speed because of its ability to decode data at 22 GB/s max. Another benefit is that game sizes can be smaller, although this is somewhat counteracted by the need for an increase in quality and quantity of assets. I suspect that bigger and better looking games will ultimately land at around the same size as they are currently because of higher compression and the elimination of a need to duplicate data on the SSD for faster data access times. As for how the speed directly benefits games, I suspect that it will take awhile for game engines and developers to implement ways to use the full speed available here, especially as Oodle Texture just released. At a minimum we should see faster loading, little to no pop in, much higher levels of texture detail, new gameplay options, and with time, games that ultimately surpass the UE5 demo level of fidelity. Exciting times ahead!
🔥 I can't wait for this new paradigm shift in game development
 
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PS5 is pushing the SDK front Even further which was Microsoft’s bread and butter. I don’t think MS will sit this out and offer plugin management Let you get Kraken in there but it probably will be at the cost of license by the developer.
 

makaveli60

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Jan 7, 2018
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I don't really undestand what this means in real world scenario and don't know if your excitement is warranted for it but reading this topic, my conclusion is... I need the PS5 now. Can't wait.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
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AFAIK the article in the OP doesn't use BC7Prep anywhere...

Ok, it shows that the numbers Sony gave in terms of average compression were average and not maximum when they have the 8-9 GB/s feature, but it is orthogonal to the point I was raising I think.

I think it is reasonable to think Sony included the RDO pre-process part of Oodle Texture in their officia average compressed bandwidth numbers but not BC7Prep.