DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And even if it were years later, it does not mean it is sex/gender related, but rather, people's ideas and being open to what they were not before, can change over a certain length of time.
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Kotaku's investigative reporting on sexism at Riot Games
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And even if it were years later, it does not mean it is sex/gender related, but rather, people's ideas and being open to what they were not before, can change over a certain length of time.
Lightsbane
Member
Markets change. Companies change. A terrible idea today is the right direction tomorrow.
Probably wouldn't be gender-related at all, but it could happen, and the person in question could take it personally if they already had a certain frame of mind.
It's easier to feel attacked than admit that, sometimes, the timing just wasn't in your favor.
prinz_valium
Member
This is the biggest bullshit i ever read.
So either the employees at Riot are stupid as fuck with zero mid term memory, or the story is a complet lie.
Either way it does not look good.
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah this is bullshit, it feels too perfect to be real and yet it makes no logical sense.
CatCouch
Member
I really hate seeing stuff like this. I love fan culture! I love cosplay and I truly hate seeing it shamed. This goes for the game journalists who shame the characters people cosplay as, too. I'm so tired of constant negativity and hatred spewed at fans.
On a similar note, I really want to see people accept both sexy designs of female characters as well as more variety with plus-size women and the like. One does not need to replace the other, there's room for both. I see way too many debates where it's all about destroying one. I only bring it up because Meagan Marie did in the Tumblr post but I can't get any indication what her views are on sex appeal. She wanted more variety and that's great but if she is against the sex appeal of the characters that already exist I would have a problem with that. She didn't state her views on that which is something I'd really like to know since I'm often left with the impression that women consider sexy art harmful. It's rarely defended.
Some of the things she brings up are pretty bad. I wouldn't be comfortable around the hypocritical slandering of cosplayers for being sexy while arguing all women want attractive designs. All the lewd comments seem to be overkill if what Marie recounts is true.
I have a lot of respect for anyone who cosplays, you're really putting yourself out there. Don't let anyone shame you for your interests in games or comics and the fandom around them. There is nothing wrong with liking what you like.
InterMusketeer
Member
I was surprised to see an article based on this report from the Dutch state-funded News organisation (NOS): here.
It also features a short summary of Gamergate, which I found interesting too:
It also features and interview with Reddlock studio head Juliëtte van der Laarse, who says she believes the situation to be somewhat different in Dutch studios, but that these same problems exist on a much smaller scale. She says men have claimed the gaming industry for themselves, and that women are often seen as hostiles who want to take away things. She also links it to sexist gamers, saying she stopped playing LoL because men would say they "didn't want her on their team" after they found out she's a woman.
It's only somewhat related, but maybe someone'll appreciate this little bit of info.
It also features a short summary of Gamergate, which I found interesting too:
It also features and interview with Reddlock studio head Juliëtte van der Laarse, who says she believes the situation to be somewhat different in Dutch studios, but that these same problems exist on a much smaller scale. She says men have claimed the gaming industry for themselves, and that women are often seen as hostiles who want to take away things. She also links it to sexist gamers, saying she stopped playing LoL because men would say they "didn't want her on their team" after they found out she's a woman.
It's only somewhat related, but maybe someone'll appreciate this little bit of info.
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DonF
Member
This is pretty damning and in line with the kotaku article, but you can tell by the words used that this person also has "special sensitivity" with the issues, also in line with kotaku's sensitivities.
She mentions microaggressions and such. Many of the situations mentioned are like sports banter.
It's unprofessional, sure.
bosnianpie
Member
Nice to see people keeping it civil in here, many different opinions.
I think it's hard to draw some conclusions from this article. They have thousands of employees and it's difficult to form an objective opinion when we hear stories from only a few of them.
It sure doesn't look good when you list it like that, but what do we really know about why someone, at a certain company didn't become a manager? Maybe they had a perfectly logical reason when filling that position with a male colleague? It doesn't always have to be sexism. The story about how a man presented her idea just sounds exaggerated to fit the narrative, I'm sorry but that's what I get from it.
Riot probably has all sorts of people in their offices, a bunch of rotten apples I'm sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean the problem is structural. Sometimes you see what you want to see.
I think it's hard to draw some conclusions from this article. They have thousands of employees and it's difficult to form an objective opinion when we hear stories from only a few of them.
It sure doesn't look good when you list it like that, but what do we really know about why someone, at a certain company didn't become a manager? Maybe they had a perfectly logical reason when filling that position with a male colleague? It doesn't always have to be sexism. The story about how a man presented her idea just sounds exaggerated to fit the narrative, I'm sorry but that's what I get from it.
Riot probably has all sorts of people in their offices, a bunch of rotten apples I'm sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean the problem is structural. Sometimes you see what you want to see.
W
Whataborman
Unconfirmed Member
In general, when people start mentioning "microaggressions" I just assume that they are oversensitive twats and start ignoring what they say.
As for Riot, it seems to be a incredibly successful company that engages in a healthy amount of "bro culture" and I don't see anything wrong with that. Perhaps that culture has contributed to their success?
Here's the problem: Someone starts working for a company and decides they don't like the "culture." Their default response is, "You've got the change the way the company is run to make me feel comfortable." Why? Maybe the default response should be for the offended person to look for another job where they would feel more comfortable.
I work in the tech industry (not gaming related) and saw the writing on the wall back in the early 2000s. The work hard/play hard culture, what some would call "bro culture" was dying out so I jumped ship and went freelance back in 2003. I would not survive in today's overly politically correct office environments so I do freelance work from home and generally don't have to deal with people.
Now, give me a Mad Men like office from the 1960s and I'd likely thrive...
Redshirt
Banned
I'm of mind the original article isn't very good, but this certainly adds credence.
There are do-ers and be-ers. Be-ers are important, but it's not always easy to be.
Arkage
Banned
Wouldn't be surprising if most of the accounts are true. Good on Kotaku for publishing and investigating, even if it's a topic I have little personal interest in. Maybe something will change for the better, and the company will get an actual functional HR department that will shut down the type of bro culture that shits on women as professional employees. Lord knows they make enough money that they could create one if they wanted.
ipukespiders
Member
Something probably will change.
Memos and meetings. There will be no more fraternization. Production and creativity will go in the shitter.
These broads need to get thicker skin.
But at least there will be pink ribbons and cup cakes.
Doczu
Member
I'm not going to deconstruct the whole story here, but the case of Jes Negrón doesn't sound sexist, but like your typical corporate bullshit scenario.
In my previous job i was in the same position. Our team lead left the company and there was an almost 6 month period where i was doing not only my job, but i was also the informal team lead for my colleague's. New manager came in, said i was performing great and that i will become the team lead in no time. They waggled the stick with the carrot for a few next months, i started taking company lead courses, held my KPI's as high as possible (not to boast, but as a freshman in the company i had the best team results after a year), got pat on my back, told to keep it up and when the nominations came, they decided for an external person. It was also announced on the floor with more than 60 people total. I felt like i was slapped in my face, used like a bitch when they needed it, and got shifted to the side track afterwards. The reason? "You don't have the needed experience".
Yeah, like that was a fucking problem when you didn't have the official lead.
So no Jes, that wasn't sexist. That was just exploitation that you weren't aware of because you really thought that this is your time to shine.
In my previous job i was in the same position. Our team lead left the company and there was an almost 6 month period where i was doing not only my job, but i was also the informal team lead for my colleague's. New manager came in, said i was performing great and that i will become the team lead in no time. They waggled the stick with the carrot for a few next months, i started taking company lead courses, held my KPI's as high as possible (not to boast, but as a freshman in the company i had the best team results after a year), got pat on my back, told to keep it up and when the nominations came, they decided for an external person. It was also announced on the floor with more than 60 people total. I felt like i was slapped in my face, used like a bitch when they needed it, and got shifted to the side track afterwards. The reason? "You don't have the needed experience".
Yeah, like that was a fucking problem when you didn't have the official lead.
So no Jes, that wasn't sexist. That was just exploitation that you weren't aware of because you really thought that this is your time to shine.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Even if it's true, that's hardly something to cry over on social media. I just read the Steve Jobs bio the other week and that dude was madly infamous at declaring someone's idea shitty, only to proclaim it as his own a few weeks later. If you don't believe me, read the book.
Though I don't remember the Apple guys crying about it over Twitter.
Don't get me wrong, this is a shitty practice, I do not endorse it at all and hope it goes away but painting this as some gender thing is absurd.
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but making it a gender thing makes you a victim. It gives you more power.
No one would care if you were the victim of someone "being a jerk", but a victim of a man's sexism. Now people will fall over themselves to aid you. It is literally a career boost.
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JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I am well aware what this is all about. I was just trying to point it out to those who maybe aren't - and I believe there are many people out there who don't get it.
Orpheum
Member
Thanks for sharing. This sounds pretty bad... and definitely gives fraternity vibes. Some of these examples make me think that riot hired some 12 year olds in the midst of puberty. This behavior is unacceptable
autoduelist
Member
"They walked me out like a criminal. They wouldn’t even let me get my bag.”
First off, since some people here may not be familiar with it, this is standard operating procedure at many companies, especially tech companies. there are too many risks in allowing someone back to their desk, people have destroyed or stolen information, caused scenes, excetera. Your items are delivered to you later. Acting as if this is some sort of aggression against her personally is either trying to get pity from those who not in the know, or simply a lack of experience of her own. I'm not saying it's a nice way to get fired, it's just common place policy at pretty much every place I've ever worked.
The way to get a promotion is to do your job well, be sociable, and have signs of leadership abilities [ie, respect of your peers]. That does not mean taking on other people's jobs. If you take on other people's jobs and become the Workhorse of the team, you do not get promoted. you're doing too much, and no new hire can easily replace you. Why promote the person that takes on all the extra work? That just hurts the team. Far better to promote someone that just excels at what they're supposed to do and has management potential.
taking on management responsibilities during a power vacuum without being asked is not a good move. If no one has mentioned to you that you're going to get that job, you're not going to get that job. Dontero has it right, nobody will stop you because it works for now, but those expectations were never going to be rewarded. In fact, stepping up into a management role during a vacuum often creates resentment. Depending on the situation, you can sometimes ask if you can take on certain responsibilities but being forward about your goals in doing so essential. If you laid out that you're doing this with the expectation of being in the running for the position, and were told to prove yourself, that's one thing... but silently expecting a promotion is a sure-fire way to never get promoted.
Sexism in the workplace definitely exists, but it's darn near impossible to get a sense of the truth of the situation from disgruntled ex employees and coworkers who may be friends of theirs. My wife for example, is underpaid. But it's also not in her wheelhouse to fight tooth and nail for a raise or promotion.
First off, since some people here may not be familiar with it, this is standard operating procedure at many companies, especially tech companies. there are too many risks in allowing someone back to their desk, people have destroyed or stolen information, caused scenes, excetera. Your items are delivered to you later. Acting as if this is some sort of aggression against her personally is either trying to get pity from those who not in the know, or simply a lack of experience of her own. I'm not saying it's a nice way to get fired, it's just common place policy at pretty much every place I've ever worked.
The way to get a promotion is to do your job well, be sociable, and have signs of leadership abilities [ie, respect of your peers]. That does not mean taking on other people's jobs. If you take on other people's jobs and become the Workhorse of the team, you do not get promoted. you're doing too much, and no new hire can easily replace you. Why promote the person that takes on all the extra work? That just hurts the team. Far better to promote someone that just excels at what they're supposed to do and has management potential.
taking on management responsibilities during a power vacuum without being asked is not a good move. If no one has mentioned to you that you're going to get that job, you're not going to get that job. Dontero has it right, nobody will stop you because it works for now, but those expectations were never going to be rewarded. In fact, stepping up into a management role during a vacuum often creates resentment. Depending on the situation, you can sometimes ask if you can take on certain responsibilities but being forward about your goals in doing so essential. If you laid out that you're doing this with the expectation of being in the running for the position, and were told to prove yourself, that's one thing... but silently expecting a promotion is a sure-fire way to never get promoted.
Sexism in the workplace definitely exists, but it's darn near impossible to get a sense of the truth of the situation from disgruntled ex employees and coworkers who may be friends of theirs. My wife for example, is underpaid. But it's also not in her wheelhouse to fight tooth and nail for a raise or promotion.
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LucidFeuer
Banned
On one hand this article is legit: there's a conditioned and perpetuated unconscious bias towards women in companies or in hierarchical structures in generals. The sole exemple of her bringing a suggestion to the table being rebunked, only for a male colleague to the same and be approved is something I've seen, and is the opposite of meritocracy therefor something to eliminate.
But the accent on a sort of arranged patriarcal conspiracy, discredits the whole attempts, and it gets worst when it mixes tons of unrelated things like cyber "harassment" in game, and the only results will be increasingly less women in those field, not just because they chose to (that's the real problem and it's their responsibility) but because companies will eventually put a stop on hiring women if those defamation and derailing risks continue multiplying without any actual solution being provided.
And that's wherein lies the problem: a meritocratic structure is based on competition, women are not willing to compete in general and rather have things served on a plate or they will complain that you did not guess their inner wants like a psychic. While the problem rests in the toxic and non-neutral partd of the competition (again, an hindering of meritocracy), those kinds of stories are doing more to damage to chances and progress on equality because of the usual feminist de-reponsibilisation BS.
But the accent on a sort of arranged patriarcal conspiracy, discredits the whole attempts, and it gets worst when it mixes tons of unrelated things like cyber "harassment" in game, and the only results will be increasingly less women in those field, not just because they chose to (that's the real problem and it's their responsibility) but because companies will eventually put a stop on hiring women if those defamation and derailing risks continue multiplying without any actual solution being provided.
And that's wherein lies the problem: a meritocratic structure is based on competition, women are not willing to compete in general and rather have things served on a plate or they will complain that you did not guess their inner wants like a psychic. While the problem rests in the toxic and non-neutral partd of the competition (again, an hindering of meritocracy), those kinds of stories are doing more to damage to chances and progress on equality because of the usual feminist de-reponsibilisation BS.
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ILLtown
Member
One of the people used as a source for the article is someone that makes Jessica Price look rational and reasonable. They're on Twitter asking for people to pay them money directly via PayPal and claiming that trans people have died because of Riot.
That's not to discredit the entire story as having no merit, but Kotaku + extreme SJW crazies = I'll take this with a pinch of salt.
That's not to discredit the entire story as having no merit, but Kotaku + extreme SJW crazies = I'll take this with a pinch of salt.
iconmaster
Banned
Thanks for keeping it civil in here.
Regarding Kotaku: I don't normally visit or pay attention to Kotaku. This article strikes me as an exception to their usual reporting and shows some journalistic merit.
Regarding Cecilia D'Anastasio: I don't know anything about her record. EvilLore's experience is worth acknowledging however.
Regarding contradicting the facts of the report: This seems like treading on thin ice. One of the things that I found most (ironically) convincing about the report was Riot Games' deflections in response to many of the mentioned incidents. I think it's more likely most of what's reported here actually happened. Interpretations of events can vary, of course, which brings us to
Regarding interpretative bias: If you're overlooked for a promotion you really deserve, was it because of sexism, or are you just undergoing the same workplace miseries common to all? In some cases it could seem to go either way; but I think you need to consider the aggregate. I'd be surprised if this explanation could account for the totality of the incidents.
Worth noting: another of D'Anastasio's sources has come forward to put a name to the accounts:
Regarding Kotaku: I don't normally visit or pay attention to Kotaku. This article strikes me as an exception to their usual reporting and shows some journalistic merit.
Regarding Cecilia D'Anastasio: I don't know anything about her record. EvilLore's experience is worth acknowledging however.
Regarding contradicting the facts of the report: This seems like treading on thin ice. One of the things that I found most (ironically) convincing about the report was Riot Games' deflections in response to many of the mentioned incidents. I think it's more likely most of what's reported here actually happened. Interpretations of events can vary, of course, which brings us to
Regarding interpretative bias: If you're overlooked for a promotion you really deserve, was it because of sexism, or are you just undergoing the same workplace miseries common to all? In some cases it could seem to go either way; but I think you need to consider the aggregate. I'd be surprised if this explanation could account for the totality of the incidents.
Worth noting: another of D'Anastasio's sources has come forward to put a name to the accounts:
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ILLtown
Member
I don't think her record is that good. Just a couple of days ago she wrote an article about Seagull retiring from professional Overwatch and in that she said that xQc was dropped from the team he played for for calling a fellow player a "fucking faggot kid", which just did not happen at all. The article was corrected after the error was pointed out, but that's quite the mistake to make.
Arkage
Banned
These stories had nothing to do with fraternization. Had to do with women getting regularly shit. Keep your eye on the ball.
link to the article. i just want to see how they would correct such an obvious fuck up.
regular shit === getting treated like everyone else int he company. Those poor little angels
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ILLtown
Member
Archive of the article with the section in question highlighted: -
https://archive.fo/bPHiQ#selection-1555.157-1561.48
Live article with correction: -
https://kotaku.com/popular-overwatch-pro-leaves-the-league-to-return-to-hi-1828174459
Stephen Totilo apologising to xQc on Twitter: -
I'm not ok with guys targeting or dismissing an employee just because they are a woman. That shit has no place in the business world. But I likewise do not understand how people think a business culture that has resulted in such massive immediate success should be changed because some people do not like the general "culture" that created the environment to achieve such success. That's absolute crap. If someone specifically harasses you that's on them, but if the fraternization of other employees bothers you then that's on you to go somewhere you like better. Its not on the business to sabotage itself to make you feel better about yourself. And with the piece being discussed, when the author starts making quips about the culture of the users of the product in the same article, the intent is clear as day that this is not about harassment and is just another shit on guys for clicks expose in my humble opinion.
CatCouch
Member
I guess my wish for more trustworthy reporting from Kotaku is not going to come true... I really, really want to seeing gaming journalism get over this need to put down the people in and around it. It's depressing knowing so much of the coverage of an industry I care so much about is so mean spirited and so often served with condescension. It's hard to trust D'Anastasio when she's making mistakes as simple as this. Kotaku needs to do a lot of work to gain my trust. It's going to require an attitude change, if they keep this slant that gaming is "all toxic, all the time" I just don't see value in their coverage.
ILLtown
Member
I couldn't agree more.
So many outlets are pulling the same shit these days. Look at this short BBC documentary from a year or two ago, for example: -
And then look at the comments, including comments from some of the women featured in the documentary: -
Ms 5ooo Watts said:
They want to keep pushing the same tired narratives that it gets to the point where it's like "the boy that cried wolf". Riot might have a real issue with the way women are treated, but I have so little faith in Kotaku that I'm not going to buy into that based on this article.
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ipukespiders
Member
Brizzady
Banned
Your mommy still cuts your food for you, doesn't she?
TrainedRage
Banned
Kotaku lol. What isn't harassment to them? Nah I ain't gonna even give one click. Someone should investigate them for being the source of so many shitty articles.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
The AAA game industry and our terrible journalist-caste were made for one another. I hope they both tumble off a cliff while they fight.
IbizaPocholo
NeoGAFs Kent Brockman
A year after sexism report rocked Riot Games, studio says it's made 'significant strides'
The League of Legends developer claims progress after damning employee complaints about its workplace culture.
www.pcgamer.com
llien
Member
I know this thread is old, but... How could that really work? I mean, octopuses forget what they've learned a day or so ago, humans, normally, don't.
Let's say they are drunk hippies on drugs, but in a group of people not a single one remembered it?
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God forbid someone tells poor downtrodden Lacy that she probably sucks at making a pitch. She's 0-2 in my book. Shitty pitch after coming up with a good idea. And shitty pitch trying to convince me that the guy who did it better was crying in shame.
Truth be told though, what's the issue with it being u professional?
People spend a loot of time - the majority of their conscious lifetime, in fact - at the workplace. Often 12 hours and longer a day.
Is it really sensible to assume people need to behave thoroughly "professional" and not ever say anything that hasn't been approved by PR? Say goodbye to all forms of joking. Not a very pleasant work environment, in my opinion.
Imho, behave professionally when facing the public. Internally? Chill. (within reason, of course)
Promotions etc are so much up to interpersonal connections. And frankly, I've rarely (maybe never?) made such a connection during some stiff arsed business talk, but generally rather during drinks when joking around with people.
But yes, if you're the kind of person whose offended at these things, odds are you won't be a very welcome guest during such events, nor will you be well liked. Which in turn most certainly won't help your promotion prospects either.
Tl;Dr: it's insane to assume people need to be fully professional at all times, that could even hold back your career. The trick is knowing when not to be.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
As I pointed out at the time, you could gender-swap that anecdote, or simply remove that aspect from the equation and it'd be equally plausible and equally dismaying. Its not always going to be a meritocracy when personalities and relationships are in play.
You can't just leap to the assumption that the cause was specifically due to sexism. It just fits into the narrative that's being pushed.
Vawn
Banned
Are you actually a woman? Are you black? Are you gay? Are you a turtle stuck in the body of a man?
If you answered yes to any of those, thsts why you didn't get the job. If you answered no to all the above, then you're confused because you did get the job.
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DonF
Member
I fully agree with you. The only caveat I have is that you have to always use your best judgement and common sense.
You have to know how to behave, always. How and with who.
If I beat a colleague in a bet, and I have trust and rapport with the guy I'll tell him "suck it!" for example. But if the same situation repeats with someone who you know is easily triggered, I would never do such thing. Not out of respect or fear, but to avoid a obvious headache.
Fuz
Banned
You are correct, but it's definitely not just "tech" industry.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
NikuNashi
Member
I have experienced a lot of what the lady in the article has, in fact I am sure most people have who have been working for a few years. I am a guy, it has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with life not being fair. Get the fuck over yourself and appreciate that you have a job in the field you are passionate about doing something you love. I have had women promoted over me who were friends with the boss, they were not the best person for the job, its a cliche but its a combination of what you know and WHO you know. I could bitch and moan about how unfair certain situations were but instead I just put the effort into preparing my resume/showreel and moved on to another company.
Regarding the idea being presented by a guy and getting through, presentation and how you go about talking to your superiors is as important as the idea itself. The guy may have been more articulate and presented it in a far more appealing way.
Regarding the idea being presented by a guy and getting through, presentation and how you go about talking to your superiors is as important as the idea itself. The guy may have been more articulate and presented it in a far more appealing way.
This is not a 'mistake'. This is how you often get promoted and grow your domain in many companies, especially tech ones. In addition to that, many of them will often tend to not promote internally until and unless a person already is doing the higher level role and has taken on the responsibility on their own. You sort of take over a group's leadership responsibilities, and then become the defacto manager of a group, initiative, or function, and that often leads to a promotion, taking over someone's team, etc.
But it's true that it doesn't always work. Definitely not if the bigger boss has a friend in mind for it, for example.