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Killzone- How to bring it into next generation (besides graphics)?

i-Lo

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It is somewhat of a long read The quotes are from the official unveiling thread.

This thread is purely about innovating KZ and (FPS in general) and fixes/improvements that ought to be made. And graphics are just an all encompassing wrapper.

Let's look at breakdown of strengths and weaknesses (from the official thread):

Strengths:

  • Gun physics (KZ2) and the consequent feel.
  • Response time (KZ3)
  • Pacing
  • Atmosphere (KZ2)
  • Boss fights (KZ2). Radec truly had a presence I have seldom seen in a video game. Almost like Vader.
  • Animation (hit reaction from KZ2)
  • Attention to detail (environmental and audio)
  • Multiplayer (KZ2)

Weaknesses:

  • Lack of identity (KZ3) and soul imbued by the art style, its consistency and atmosphere of KZ2.
  • Poor plot/story that fails to leverage the a multi-faceted struggle that defines the KZ universe, making it feel absolutely flat.
  • Highly annoying, crass and meathead of a partner.
  • Banal script. Another true disservice given how mighty the opening speeches have been.
  • A general disconnect between what is to be done and why. This general lack of impetus is tied to the plot, character, their motivations and moment to moment objectives.
  • Multiplayer (KZ3) (Edit: While not like KZ2, it is not the worst either).
  • Lacking any memorable character (KZ3).

Potential Addendum:

  • RPG elements- Arsenal and player unlocks, upgrades and customization.
  • Dialog choices (Alpha protocol, ME) allowing for players to personalize the story.
  • Co-op
  • Ability to play as both Helgan and Vektan (to build upon a multi faceted story and explore the impetus for the actions of both sides) in the same campaign (think Snatch).

What follows are responses:

Great post i-Lo.

Personally, the direction I believe GG is heading with Shadow Fall is against the grain. My personal belief is admittedly probably wrong because it is radical for a number of reasons:

1) Remember the rumors of a fantasy-RPG developed by Guerrilla Games? Well, where is it? Also, the Shadow Fall team added 25 new staff for its development. What for, and its possible that the additional team GAF speculated about for the fantasy-RPG wasn't a new team at all but simply new additions to the Shadow Fall team.

2) Wait a minute, your probably thinking. Killzone is a FPS. Where are you getting this fantasy-RPG idea from, is another question you might be thinking. Well, first of all, the game title raises suspicions. Why not go with Killzone4? The obvious answer is because its set 30 years in the future featuring a new main character and reasonably a new supporting cast. Killzone2, however was set in the near future as well and supporting a main character and new supporting cast as well, yet it followed the number sequence. Its not hard proof but the title change can indicate a change in philosophy.

3) I'm saying they are transitioning away from the FPS either, but adding fantasy-RPG elements to Shadow Fall to deepen the gameplay. Posters have been drawing comparisons to Mass Effect with Vetka City. I've noticed the same parallels. Surely traversal is possible as well. I mean, from what we saw in the demo, it is possible those blue "highways" cars are traveling on our ways to freely move from one semi-open area to another semi-open area with numerous NPCs to talk to, story events waiting to be triggered, and secrets to find through exploration.

4) The story also is begging for this type of game to be made and what better universe is this type of game better for other than Killzone? You are a secret operative Shadow Warrior whose sole job is maintaining the peace between both factions. Obviously you are welcome on either side and probably know each sides political leaders because you are the peace keeper. Killzone always had a moral ambiguity about it especially with the ending of 2 and I think this type of game can explore this moral ambiguity even deeper. Shadow Fall could based on premise fit the description of a fantasy-RPG with shooting elements.

So, what do y'all think. It's obviously crazy town but its fun to think about. Killzone has always had so much potential to be one of the greatest FPS of all-time but for some reason it always finds a way to come up short in the writing and story department. That is why its so much fun for me to speculate over because its one of those games where I feel like I could write a compelling story for and design a game around. So what you essentially read is the game I would develop if I was the creative director.

Anyway, I'm going to keep holding my breath for this to come true because I've argued before that I'm still skeptical that this demo is actually in the final game but that its a demo showing the game and story concept.

EDIT:

5) Furthermore, based on the premise of the story, there is little wiggle room for their being any other environments other than the Vetka City and Helgan City. Why would you need to venture planet Vetka when it is clear the Wall dividing the two factions is the center piece of Shadow Falls story? Also, what is the point of designing an entire city that spans for miles in every direction with detailed geometry and textures for if you can't explore it? For pretty scenery is the obvious answer, but from what we know about the story its based on these two factions in heavy political and societal conflict divided by a Wall I want to know where else could the story take us that is relevant to this story arch?

On a paradigm shift in design to make it next gen worthy.

Gaffers, I have thinking about how we can take cues from Burnout Paradise and Journey as well as Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. Each of the two share a common theme. Let me show you:

Burnout Paradise & Journey: Seamless online integration and transition.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls: Invasions.

A buzzword: Coincidental timing

This idea can also be implemented into other games. For this to work, being connected online is a prerequisite.

Idea:

As aforementioned, assume you have a SP campaign where you get to play both the Vektan and Helgan side. Or it can be two equally deep separate campaigns. In any event, retreading some of the same location has to exist. Now, imagine you are progressing through the story and as is par for the course facing a multitude (as always) of enemies with your AI team-mates. Here is the fun twist- One of those adversaries is a real player who is in his/her part of the campaign where he/she is playing as the other side retreading the same ground. If the player of one side dies, the mission restarts for him/her (as usual) now with either a new human player as one of the opposing forces member if available or just another AI driven drone. For the player who wins the fire-fight, he/she simply proceeds onward with the campaign.

The storyline would have to share the same timeline from both sides (once again, think Snatch) and multiple points of intersection woven into the fabric of the campaign. I also mentioned earlier that the story should be a touch more personalized and that it could be achieved via providing dialogue options like ME/Alpha Protocol. This way non linearity can be attained even in terms of locations chosen for fire fights from time to time. This means differing points of intersections and grounds for retreading.

Rationale:

  • Current AI in games is no substitute for human player. Introducing a human element in the opposing team without foreknowledge presents an element of surprise and enriches the experience.
  • Given limited non-linearity in choosing locations (eg: Player chooses to battle on Front A, over B or C), it weaves an element of replayability in the campaign itself without resorting to "item collection"
  • Given no one has done it in a FPS before, it would be a tremendous way to move the series forward, not unlike the games mentioned at the beginning of the post. It will be a generational shift that is beyond graphics.

Caveats:

  • Given this system relies on "coincidental timing" the net code would have to be sublime to filter things through continual monitoring for the following and etc:
  • Player skill balance. This is a variable that is dependent upon the choice of the difficulty of SP campaign.
  • Load times would have to be "tweaked" in clever fashion enforce the "coincidental timing" for potential match ups.
  • Map design and triggers to move to next sections have to be designed with this in mind.
  • Given the complexity of numerous variables, this seamless transition/invasion would be limited to a few maps.

In effect, this is a combination of single player and playing multiplayer with one player and multiple bots at the same time.

Good list, but i would like to add KZ3 to the multiplayer as well, since it introduced the Operation Mode. Personally i really liked that and i hope to see it in Killzone 4 as well :)

What did people find wrong with the Warzone Mode in Killzone 3 by the way? Personally i enjoyed KZ2 multiplayer more than KZ3 multiplayer, but i think it was only because of the different maps and lack of portable spawnpoints.
When I read this post the first thing that sprang into my mind was, "this idea is genius." Seriously I mean that. It is in the same direction that I was working to as well, except using Dark and Demon's Souls as a better example than Mass Effect.

The gameplay idea is great and as you already mentioned has its challenges. However, Demon's and Dark Souls has proven its possible. Guerrilla Games should piggyback off that idea.

It works even better when the player is given multiple directions to take to parts of the city on the Vetkan side or Helghast side depending on simple choices the player makes. This idea is based off of Dark Souls. I love how the player can role-play by making simple choices. In addition, my initial comparison to Mass Effect works as well because I love the way Mass Effect handled the story and side missions. Your vision and mine are very similar, and thanks to James Sawyer Ford for some of his ideas because they helped clarify what I think Killzone should do, but more importantly how there are possible hints of this coming true.

Your idea of invasions is amazing, although that is something I don't think FPS developers would have even thought of because it hasn't even been tested in a genre, or hell even a game other than Demon's and Dark Souls.

Let's get even funkier. I believe Furst said they are going to use voice commands during the Jimmy Fallon interview when they were going over the controller specs. Now, imagine if the player who invades can act as the squad captain, directing enemy AI troops around using simple voice commands similar to SOCOM. If the player takes out the invader the enemy AI kind of loses its shit for a moment.

In an ever connected world this would bring something new that fundamentally changes Single Player Campaign experience. Destiny is doing something like this I believe but it is P v E.

So what do you think and what are your personal views on how the franchise can come into next gen without resorting to graphics or motion controls?
 

Gadirok

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Kinda off-topic but I feel it would be the best place to mention it.


I was originally down with the idea that I would pick up Mercenaries on the vita, but with the recent announcement that Remote Play will be working for every PS4 title from launch and KZ:Shadow fall is a launch title, why would I want to realy play Mercenaries?

Besides the on the go experience?

Feels kinda saturated, they are on seperate systems but the vita is going to be a portable PS4 as well.

I also wonder if these two will interconnect in any way, since they are in such close proximity of launches.
 

Dahbomb

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I would shit my pants if I am playing Killzone on the hardest difficulty and one of the opposition is a human controlled AI.

I guess this would only be possible if the campaign is split into two (Helghan/Vektan) and there are overlapping battles.
 

Massa

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Kinda off-topic but I feel it would be the best place to mention it.


I was originally down with the idea that I would pick up Mercenaries on the vita, but with the recent announcement that Remote Play will be working for every PS4 title from launch and KZ:Shadow fall is a launch title, why would I want to realy play Mercenaries?

Besides the on the go experience?

Feels kinda saturated, they are on seperate systems but the vita is going to be a portable PS4 as well.

I also wonder if these two will interconnect in any way, since they are in such close proximity of launches.

One is going to look like a compressed youtube video with laggy controls and the other will look like the most amazing handheld game ever made.
 

Moobabe

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The most important part of FPS games, for me, is the non shooting segments (as odd as it sounds.)

The opening of the new Killzone (if indeed it is the opening) is stunning - and I hope that the city environment allows the game to have sections that aren't simply corridor shooting segments.

Investigation missions, espionage missions, 'down time' moments in the peaceful parts of the city etc

Any good that is solely shooting can be tedious; regardless of how good that mechanic may be.
 

Sky Chief

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Kinda off-topic but I feel it would be the best place to mention it.


I was originally down with the idea that I would pick up Mercenaries on the vita, but with the recent announcement that Remote Play will be working for every PS4 title from launch and KZ:Shadow fall is a launch title, why would I want to realy play Mercenaries?

Besides the on the go experience?

Feels kinda saturated, they are on seperate systems but the vita is going to be a portable PS4 as well.

I also wonder if these two will interconnect in any way, since they are in such close proximity of launches.

Mercenaries looks pretty cool and a rather unique take on the franchise
 

SniperHunter

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GG needs to think out of the box. They have a good system on their hands and a lot of ram. They should definitely go for big open levels ala battlefield, with a ton of vehicles and stuff going on. Make it like Battlefield basically. The days of restricting yourself to linear levels thanks to low system ram are OVER.
 

GrayFoxPL

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You don't actually shoot, but you throw bullets at enemies until they get tired and annoyed and just walk away.

This feature would do it for me to call it next gen.
 

Gold_Loot

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Great thread.

I have to disagree on the bit about memorable characters though. I though Stahl, Jammer and Orlock were good additions to the cast. Would I have liked to have seen them fleshed out a bit more? Sure, but at least they don't kill off all the intersting characters like some other sci-fi series. (is Rico dead yet?)
 

TheMink

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Kinda off-topic but I feel it would be the best place to mention it.


I was originally down with the idea that I would pick up Mercenaries on the vita, but with the recent announcement that Remote Play will be working for every PS4 title from launch and KZ:Shadow fall is a launch title, why would I want to realy play Mercenaries?

Besides the on the go experience?

Feels kinda saturated, they are on seperate systems but the vita is going to be a portable PS4 as well.

I also wonder if these two will interconnect in any way, since they are in such close proximity of launches.

Well you can play Mercs without an internet connection.

One is going to look like a compressed youtube video with laggy controls and the other will look like the most amazing handheld game ever made.

You must know cause you tried it
 

Derrick01

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I'm in favor of making it more like a real RPG and being able to explore that amazing city, even if it was the only location in the game, but I am not in favor of any online crap like the Souls games.

But it would be cool to play an actual RPG with actual FPS gameplay. Borderlands is one example but that game misses FPS mechanics and control that the best have and at the same time is more like a MMORPG in RPG mechanics and design than a normal RPG.
 

Man

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With Shadow Fall I think they are aiming to make a most solid and spectacular traditional fps package that people keep coming back to throughout the PS4 launch year.
 

SniperHunter

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I'm in favor of making it more like a real RPG and being able to explore that amazing city, even if it was the only location in the game, but I am not in favor of any online crap like the Souls games.

But it would be cool to play an actual RPG with actual FPS gameplay. Borderlands is one example but that game misses FPS mechanics and control that the best have and at the same time is more like a MMORPG in RPG mechanics and design than a normal RPG.

yea that's what I was thinking when I first saw that trailer. I would love to explore that environment (before the explosion) and talk to the NPC's But it seemed like the NPC's were robotic with stupid one liners and no animation routines. Man, a Killzone game in the vein of Dues Ex would be AMAZING.
 

Dlacy13g

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#1 thing Killzone needs if its going to continue to try and deliver a single player game... A protagonist that is likable, heroic and someone you actually want to play as, not someone you have to play.
 
Oct 22, 2009
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I was hoping the KZ4 would have a Helgast-centric campaign, since most of us would agree they've been the more interesting characters, and I don't think the story has portrayed them as being so evil that people wouldn't want to play as them. But, that sorta want out the window after the trailer. :\
 

revolverjgw

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Look to the past. Killzone 1 had characters that were actual CHARACTERS and had relationships. It wasn't Planescape but it was a likeable group that had some development, quite good for an FPS. You had a Helghast ally to show that they weren't all evil. And the characters all played differently... bring back the classes and let me play as a Shadow Marshal.

MAYBE bring in some minor non-linearity, if they have to, have some small hubs or something like The Darkness, but making it like an RPG is stupid. A Killzone spinoff like that could work, but Killzone proper is an action game.
 

Man

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#1 thing Killzone needs if its going to continue to try and deliver a single player game... A protagonist that is likable, heroic and someone you actually want to play as, not someone you have to play.
Apparently you play a female shadow marshal as leaked by the voice actor.
 

i-Lo

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Great thread.

I have to disagree on the bit about memorable characters though. I though Stahl, Jammer and Orlock were good additions to the cast. Would I have liked to have seen them fleshed out a bit more? Sure, but at least they don't kill off all the intersting characters like some other sci-fi series. (is Rico dead yet?)

The issue I had with them were that they were caricatures of trite and typical tv soap depiction people vying for to fill the power vacuum created due to Visari's departure with utmost melodrama. While it was good, it lacked nuances that would have set it above the pack. The potential was there but script failed to deliver and the personalities never held sway like Visari.
 

nib95

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My list of top wants...

  • More exploration (much longer periods where you're not actually shooting). Seeing more of the world, the inhabitants, Helghan and Vetkan society etc.
  • RPG elements, the ability to upgrade stuff, communicate with NPC's etc (in certain segments of the game anyway).
  • Better characters (not typical dudebro douches but people with empathy, sympathy, morals etc).
  • Better narrative (back story, political aspects etc).
  • Seeing both sides of the story, or being able to play as Helghan too.

Fact that GG haven't done some of the above, despite the non stop advice from their fan base to explore some of the requests outlined, does make me think they are slightly incompetent outside of the tech side of things. KZ2 BETA was also nigh on perfect multiplayer wise, whilst the final game and then KZ3 were regressions. They need to stop trying to be a check the tick box me too shooter, and start holding firmly on to that original identity and style they were famous for.
 

Dlacy13g

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Great thread.

I have to disagree on the bit about memorable characters though. I though Stahl, Jammer and Orlock were good additions to the cast. Would I have liked to have seen them fleshed out a bit more? Sure, but at least they don't kill off all the intersting characters like some other sci-fi series. (is Rico dead yet?)

There is not one memorable character from Killzone. The most memorable character from Killzone is the enemy Helgast with their glowing eyes.
 

sunnz

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A lot less like KZ3/COD ( so no stupid crap like kill-streaks, over the top perks) and keeping it simple like KZ2.

I also LOVE the way that Mercenaries on the vita is going, it adds a hell of a lot more replay value to the game as you can keep replaying missions with different style, guns, equipment etc... That is why mercenaries on its own will be pretty dam awesome.


I also think KZ should be a lot more open and allow you to make your own choices ( playstyle).

Taking tips from crysis 1.
 

Gold_Loot

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I'm in favor of making it more like a real RPG and being able to explore that amazing city, even if it was the only location in the game, but I am not in favor of any online crap like the Souls games.

But it would be cool to play an actual RPG with actual FPS gameplay. Borderlands is one example but that game misses FPS mechanics and control that the best have and at the same time is more like a MMORPG in RPG mechanics and design than a normal RPG.

Man, I just can't see a Killzone game like this. To me, Killzone is all about balls to the wall action and set pieces .Maybe if they did a spin off series set on Vetka perhaps. You can have a game with a party system, quests, and character building(kind of like a bigger version of Deus Ex.)
 

beast786

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make backstory more part of the game. bring back KZ2 recoil and animation.

that's all, live warzone best MP mode
Love class base system.
 

Gadirok

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There is not one memorable character from Killzone. The most memorable character from Killzone is the enemy Hellghast with their glowing eyes.

Well from my playthrough ( I only played like the first few hours of Killzone HD before getting bored of it and only played the multiplayer demo of KZ3 and have almost completed the online component of Killzone 2) Visari stands out the most.

From All-stars Radec stood out the most and convinced me to purchase the trilogy. I only played the online of Killzone 2, but Radec is still noticable with his voice over the radio commands in Warzone. Along with the constant references to Visari.

I still haven't got to actually see Visari besides the opening videos of Killzone HD and 2.
 

SniperHunter

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GG should take inspiration from these games:

F.E.A.R. I (shooting mechanics)
HALO (big open world, vehicular combat)
Deus Ex Human Revolution (RPG elements)

mix all three and you have something special IMO.
 

AlphaDump

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F.E.A.R. 1 type gunplay where chaos is not in the static backgrounds or scripted events, but the actual gunplay itself. Sparks should fly, and the impact should be felt in the each shot as bullets break apart walls. You can pump all the money you want to create other immersion, but this always seemed like a simple feature that no other developer has tried to evolve, and which still makes FEAR stand out to this day.
 

Gold_Loot

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The issue I had with them were that they were caricatures of trite and typical tv soap depiction people vying for to fill the power vacuum created due to Visari's departure with utmost melodrama. While it was good, it lacked nuances that would have set it above the pack. The potential was there but script failed to deliver and the personalities never held sway like Visari.
In that respect, yes , the script could have been tighter with a bit more character growth. But to me, it felt more like a typical summer popcorn flick. I guess I can understand the compliants since the game has such a rich history and back story.
 

TimeEffect

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May the gods bless you for this.

Please post to GG Forums when the SF forum opens up. I had a lot of success there when I made a forum post to "fix" K3, the K2 fans there are very supportive.
 

Massa

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I'm in favor of making it more like a real RPG and being able to explore that amazing city, even if it was the only location in the game, but I am not in favor of any online crap like the Souls games.

But it would be cool to play an actual RPG with actual FPS gameplay. Borderlands is one example but that game misses FPS mechanics and control that the best have and at the same time is more like a MMORPG in RPG mechanics and design than a normal RPG.

Sound like you and modern day Bioware are on the same page. :lol
 

Papacheeks

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Why do these threads get made, because there are at least five with same to similar posts?

Why is everyone analyzing 7 minutes from one sequence from Pre-Alpha game code?

I love conversation, especially with what Guerrilla Games Has been cooking as of late, but the over analyzing is getting to dizzying heights once again.

I mean look how everyone quickly judge Tomb Raider by the off putting PR campaign, and that game is getting great reviews mostly.

Ah, who am I kidding, totally pumped for Killzone.
 

JCreasy

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I've been thinking about the RPG stuff for a while now. It would be awesome if they pulled it off. I hope they show-up at E3 with the goods!
 

sunnz

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Why do these threads get made, because there are at least five with same to similar posts?

Why is everyone analyzing 7 minutes from one sequence from Pre-Alpha game code?

I love conversation, especially with what Guerrilla Games Has been cooking as of late, but the over analyzing is getting to dizzying heights once again.

I mean look how everyone quickly judge Tomb Raider by the off putting PR campaign, and that game is getting great reviews mostly.

Ah, who am I kidding, totally pumped for Killzone.

Umm, this is more of what we want to see rather than analyzing what we saw.
 

SniperHunter

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A couple of cool things I noticed in that trailer:

Bodies don't disappear - this is great
The body physics are extremely hilarious - I love how the bodies of flew once they got hit by a grenade. Awesome physics implementation like this made Battlefield Bad Company 2 a great game IMO, something missing from BF3.
 

TUROK

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GG needs to think out of the box. They have a good system on their hands and a lot of ram. They should definitely go for big open levels ala battlefield, with a ton of vehicles and stuff going on. Make it like Battlefield basically. The days of restricting yourself to linear levels thanks to low system ram are OVER.
Oh, you think that's due to RAM limitations?

That's cute.
 

backbreaker65

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This idea fused with some elements of "Full Spectrum Warrior Ten Hammers" would be the epitome of a great single player experience.

"Idea:

As aforementioned, assume you have a SP campaign where you get to play both the Vektan and Helgan side. Or it can be two equally deep separate campaigns. In any event, retreading some of the same location has to exist. Now, imagine you are progressing through the story and as is par for the course facing a multitude (as always) of enemies with your AI team-mates. Here is the fun twist- One of those adversaries is a real player who is in his/her part of the campaign where he/she is playing as the other side retreading the same ground. If the player of one side dies, the mission restarts for him/her (as usual) now with either a new human player as one of the opposing forces member if available or just another AI driven drone. For the player who wins the fire-fight, he/she simply proceeds onward with the campaign.

The storyline would have to share the same timeline from both sides (once again, think Snatch) and multiple points of intersection woven into the fabric of the campaign. I also mentioned earlier that the story should be a touch more personalized and that it could be achieved via providing dialogue options like ME/Alpha Protocol. This way non linearity can be attained even in terms of locations chosen for fire fights from time to time. This means differing points of intersections and grounds for retreading.
"
 

SniperHunter

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Oh, you think that's due to RAM limitations?

That's cute.

For sure, I am PC and a console gamer and that's what I have been thinking since the PS2 days. PS3 especially sucks at drawing big open levels with a lot of stuff going on. With so much system ram, I think we will start to see the full potential of these developers.
 
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What kind of RPG systems are you guys talking about? All I can think of that would make sense is a Borderlands like RPG game.
 

jett

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Since you are playing as some sort of Shadow Ops Super Soldier in KZSF I can only hope there's a decent amount of well-designed stealth. This series needs more than just shootbang to really make a mark.
 

Papacheeks

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Umm, this is more of what we want to see rather than analyzing what we saw.

Yea, sorry the Thread title is a little vague, and there are so many threads on Gaf about just Killzone: Shadow Fall. So many that's a little overwhelming to where actual good conversations and Idea's are getting passed around.

But thanks to like i-Lo this seems much better.

Sorry for the trollish like comment, it's just that everywhere people keep bashing on anything from the Sony conference.

Thanks for the Honesty!
 
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Feels like this thread could be renamed, "How to bring the FPS genre into next generation (besides graphics)?"

Whatever they are doing with Shadow Fall it is way too late to change now. Most of the ideas being discussed are really things all FPS developers should take a look at for future projects.