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Keto vs Calorie counting - can someone please settle it for me

Schattenjäger

Gabriel Knight
i’ve always been on the CICO side but after reading a few of Gary Taubes books on carbs.. i come around again on limiting carbs but know it’s not sustainable.. he makes a compelling argument about carbs and the affect on insulin.. but the idea of just eating meat and fat all the time and its affect long term on heart health scares me ...ive been trained to think fruits and oatmeal and even skim milk are good for you.. it feels wrong having to give them up
can anyone offer any anecdotal evidence for either side?
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
There is no 'settling' it, both can work, both can fail. I was on the keto diet for about 9 months and its the kind of diet where you can only really be on it if you are single or if your partner is also on it. You will also be 'that guy' on a fairly regular basis.
CICO is a lot better for me personally for losing or maintaining weight as I can still eat anything as long as I am keeping track.
 

teezzy

Banned
Cico matters most, no matter what diet you're on.

Putting your body into a state of ketosis can assist cico and increase your weight loss by forcing your body to burn its secondary fuel source, fat, due to an absence of, carbs, its primary fuel source.

It works. I lost 50 lbs doing keto. Its unfair to villainize carbs though, if you're avoiding processed bullshit and not trying to enter ketosis then carbs are a great source of energy.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Both can work but you really have to find what best fits your lifestyle. I think most people for whom keto works (like myself) will find not needing to count calories a lot less stressful. Just identify foods that you can eat and have at it. For other people, the idea of giving up bread, chocolate, pasta, and ice cream is extremely stressful and they won't mind being meticulous about their daily intake.

For me, I'll take keto any day. Stay lean and get stronger while gorging on meat, eggs, and cheese. It's certainly a lot easier for me.
 

Schattenjäger

Gabriel Knight
Both can work but you really have to find what best fits your lifestyle. I think most people for whom keto works (like myself) will find not needing to count calories a lot less stressful. Just identify foods that you can eat and have at it. For other people, the idea of giving up bread, chocolate, pasta, and ice cream is extremely stressful and they won't mind being meticulous about their daily intake.

For me, I'll take keto any day. Stay lean and get stronger while gorging on meat, eggs, and cheese. It's certainly a lot easier for me.
but what about cholesterol and long term heart affects
 

Armorian

Banned
I lost ~21kg in like 2.5 months counting calories (less than 1500), not excersising or anything. This shit works. 108 - 87kg and still going down .
 
but what about cholesterol and long term heart affects

Read The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz.

Cholesterol is not a problem, the $1+ billion dollar statin market is. Saturated fat is not a problem, either.

To the person asking about keeping bowels regular, everything you've been told about fiber is completely upside down and backwards. It's completely unecessary.
 
Time and time again, through every plan, diet and food fad, what's always been present is CICO. When something's there so much that you can't take a left or a right without hitting it, it should at the very least give a lot of people some food for thought.

Maybe the perspective on doing research on your own is different in western countries but usually, the only sure-fire way of actually knowing what your body's doing, how it's reacting and what it needs, is going for a complete work-up, blood test, the works, which offers the clearest foundation of knowledge to start your work off of or any such lifestyle changes.
 
Elaborate a little if you can be arsed.
it just seems bizarre, a diet where you just eat meat and fat when the rest of the globe eats from all available food groups

theres matts girlfriend freelee who eats basically only fruit and got to a normal weight that way, and lol thats prohibited in keto

i bet that girl would orgasm after tasting a steak again

these diets are extreme in my eyes

if i knew someone who ate meat all day for years id think theyre crazy
 

Cutty Flam

Banned
Read The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz.

Cholesterol is not a problem, the $1+ billion dollar statin market is. Saturated fat is not a problem, either.

To the person asking about keeping bowels regular, everything you've been told about fiber is completely upside down and backwards. It's completely unecessary.
Fiber is unnecessary? Could you go in more depth about that if you have the book on hand? I'd like to hear more or even just hear your opinion. I've never heard this claim until now
 

bati

Member
I never did full keto but I was restricting carbs heavily (about 100g per day) for a while and eventually had to stop because it lead to severely diminished performance in the gym. Different people handle macro ratios differently though, there's no standard solution for everyone.
 

All Hail C-Webb

Hailing from the Chill-Web
i’ve always been on the CICO side but after reading a few of Gary Taubes books on carbs.. i come around again on limiting carbs but know it’s not sustainable.. he makes a compelling argument about carbs and the affect on insulin.. but the idea of just eating meat and fat all the time and its affect long term on heart health scares me ...ive been trained to think fruits and oatmeal and even skim milk are good for you.. it feels wrong having to give them up
can anyone offer any anecdotal evidence for either side?

I love carbs in a bad way, but I also love being in ketosis.
I don't look at Keto as separate to CICO, it's just an easier way to get there. The effect it can have on hunger is amazing, and the fat fills you quickly when you do eat.
There's so much more to it than meat and fat now days. You can have plenty of salads, and vegetables, even some fruit on occasion. There are substitute pizzas, breads, pasta, and cakes.
I also have way more energy on Keto, feel better in general, and it's good for inflammation.
It's definitely worth giving it a shot if there's nothing medically holding you back.
 

Dontero

Banned
Cico is the only thing that matters.

I ate spaghetti bolognese, pizza and hamburgers + some other definitely not healthy food but i counted calories and ate only amount i needed. I dropped 20KG from 97KG to 77KG.

You didn't need to exercise either and it is not advised to exercise when you drop weight.
 

Dontero

Banned
What? Resistance training is heavily recommended so that you don't lose lean muscle tissue.

You don't drop muscle if you are withing limit of calories intake (about half of daily intake). Calories that are not delivered should be taken out of your fat cells. So no muscle loss. Muscle loss only occurs when you drop below that limit and body doesn't has low amount storaged fat.

If you losing weight and train then you are risking heavy muscle damage, snapping tendons and so on because damage accumulates and it is not repaired as there are no build material and calories. Priority for your body is to deliver calories to organs first and then extra to muscles. If you eat 1000kcal and you have 2000kcal normal then it means any kind of exercise will damage your muscles and they won't be repaired properly until you deliver proper 2200-2500kcal + building material.

This is why exercising and dieting is mistake. Either you gain or you lose weight doing both is dangerous.
So you eat a lot and train so that you muscles growth and then you cut by dieting.

Ever wondered why sport stars have so many injuries ? Because they are doing exactly that, they train and diet at the same time and they have doctors with them to manage it.
 
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Cutty Flam

Banned
i’ve always been on the CICO side but after reading a few of Gary Taubes books on carbs.. i come around again on limiting carbs but know it’s not sustainable.. he makes a compelling argument about carbs and the affect on insulin.. but the idea of just eating meat and fat all the time and its affect long term on heart health scares me ...ive been trained to think fruits and oatmeal and even skim milk are good for you.. it feels wrong having to give them up
can anyone offer any anecdotal evidence for either side?
Milk is not really healthy. Casein has a moderate inhibitory affect on zinc in the body. Zinc is necessary for every cell in your body to utilize. So halting the effectiveness of the zinc every cell you possess must use completely rules out milk for me. I always wondered why I felt so sickly after a couple of cups. Not with raw milk though, that stuff was alright. But any other milk even organic, fuck dude, killed my throat, mucus to the max, felt like I was somewhat sick. I think milk is a fairly poor choice unless you buy raw milk with an excellent expiration date. Anything else is just white puss practically. Hormones, chemicals, antibiotics, the nutrients and enzymes and nutrients have all been fucked from the heating process. It's like drinking white cow waste product at that point imo

Fruits imo are only good for pre-workout consumption. Fructose is to be avoided if you want to lose/burn fat
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-fructose-bad-for-you-201104262425

I've never been a fan of oatmeal either. I've heard bad things and good things

More and more as I get older, I sort of realize that the nutrition studies are so back and forth that it's just kind of ridiculous. But I definitely believe in cutting foods out of ones diet if you think they aren't right for you. Like personally, I love spaghetti, it's my favorite food of all time. I fucking love the entire spaghetti dinner night with the spaghetti sauce, the angel hair/thin/medium noodles, all the breads and oils, salads, all that stuff but the carbs just turn me into a complete fat fuck. The only time I was able to eat spaghetti weekly without any issues in weight gain was when I was training like 15+ hrs a week at a high level and had a very, very active job. At that point it was okay. But I was in a caloric deficit most of the time. I think health comes when you hover around a caloric deficit and modify it accordingly, as well as when you are extremely active most of your day and evening. But that takes building up to. It's not advisable to just go from sedentary or low activity level to training 2-3 hrs each day. Have to build up to it

Keeping calories lower rather than higher will always be a good habit to form imo, based off my experiences. Sometimes I would go to bed hungry as fuck, and I knew I needed some more if I was going to sleep well, recover properly, and overall just be healthy. If I misjudged and went to bed hungry as fuck I would just eat something like some peanutbutter and would be fine. I was lean and muscular. It's not the best idea if you want to maximize strength and muscle mass to cut calories but when it comes to overall health and keeping body fat low, you definitely need to pick your foods, do away with many food options that will hamper your efforts and cause you to over-indulge, and simply eat according to your needs, which isn't a crazy amount of food for most people
 

cormack12

Gold Member
Keto etc. are not meant to be sustainable for healthy lifestyles. Some people can do it, but for the vast majority it's just not viable especially if you're doing other training on top of it.

CICO will work and you can complement it with a gram intake of carbs for best of both worlds, and also do the 16/8 eating pattern. I'd start with 75g of carbs, then reduce to 50. Then if still not where you are, drop to 30 but go no lower than that. Your macro ratio will look stupid but if it works, it works.
 
40 / 40 / 20 is about the best balance of macros, with 90% of it all coming from healthy ingredients. If you want to lose weight move more, don’t use unsustainable diets.
 

Cutty Flam

Banned
What is raw for you? Not pasteurized? I've had non-pasteurized milk but I don't think it's even legal to sell in most places
Flash-chilled, filtered, and tested is the standard for being raw. At least that I know of based off the company that I used to buy from when I drank milk. That stuff is so good that I actually could drink 3/4th the gallon in a single hour, easily, and feel amazing. It was tough to not drink anything less than 32 oz at a time of the stuff, I honestly would easily drink a half gallon of that raw milk like it was nothing. Doing that with any other type of milk would just wreak havoc on my immune system. But with raw milk it was like magic...I still decided to give it up though. Zinc is too vital. I don’t even want to chance it negating it even 1%, I don’t care how delicious and nutritious raw milk is

But if you’re going to but raw milk for growing kids, they’d be healthy as can be to drink that milk instead. It felt like I was drinking an almost complete meal by the way I was feeling whenever I drank that stuff. Just my two cents on it
 

South

Banned
i do keto and it includes 40g carbs its not carb free but super low to maintain keto state.
if u can omad then its no issue as when you have your meal you wont even have a massive amount as you will be full up.
I ate some bread and pizza over the last weekend and it kicked me out of keto for several days and i gained about 1.5lbs so its really important to stick to it to get to your goals - at least three months. then assess and maybe go back to a healthier lifestyle with some exercise.
 

rykomatsu

Member
CICO is for weight loss

Keto is for balancing / reducing available sugars such that loss of fat is prioritized.

It just so happens that keto as a side effect can help wean people from blood sugar level related hunger pangs, so low CI becomes easier to maintain
 
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Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Diets only fail because the one following it fails (by not following it). Choose the one you are most optmistic you can sustain - for the rest of your life.
 

MaestroMike

Gold Member
Calories in micronutrients in calories out. The energy is the gun powder, the nutrients pull the trigger and release the energy.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I love carbs in a bad way, but I also love being in ketosis.
I don't look at Keto as separate to CICO, it's just an easier way to get there. The effect it can have on hunger is amazing, and the fat fills you quickly when you do eat.
There's so much more to it than meat and fat now days. You can have plenty of salads, and vegetables, even some fruit on occasion. There are substitute pizzas, breads, pasta, and cakes.
I also have way more energy on Keto, feel better in general, and it's good for inflammation.
It's definitely worth giving it a shot if there's nothing medically holding you back.
Yeah, I will say a six month or so of keto will help you reset your carb intake and find some good substitutes. I still don't eat bread unless I am getting a meal from a restaurant. I use low carb tortillas instead - which are one of those substitutes which are just as good as the real thing but like 1/3rd the calories. I still mainly eat edamame pasta instead of the real thing as pasta is just a vehicle for the sauces for me mainly. Desserts are still sugar free pudding, chips are low carb protein chips.
 

JimboJones

Member
Diets only fail because the one following it fails (by not following it). Choose the one you are most optmistic you can sustain - for the rest of your life.
Yeah, my mum did the whole calorie counting thing and it worked for her and to be fair I got results too but I just can't be arsed counting calories, keto is to restrictive for me, I get fed up with it quickly.
One meal a day or alternate day fasting was what worked for me long term cause I didn't really have to alter what I ate (to a certain extent) or think about calories, but some people just can't handle it, my bro tried it and hated it but now he has been vegan for the last year, somthing I wouldn't want to do but hey works for him!
 

V4skunk

Banned
It's hilarious when people talk about these joke diets.
You'll even find 99% of the people dieting don't even do any exercise.
 
Except that your body burns carbs and fat first so the best option (which I do for rapid weight loss) is intermittent fasting with a piece of fruit and coffee for breakfast and a large salad for dinner. Salad is loaded with a spring mix, onions, tomatoes, peppers, mushrooms, and for a "meat", either skinless chicken, tuna, or imitation crab meat.

I put on a little over 18 pounds during the lockdown and since going back to my regular diet, I've lost about a pound a day. I'm also running 5 miles every other day (working to get to a daily thing but soreness). If you want sudden weight loss, you can achieve it with a combination of the things I mentioned. There is a dormant period for about a 3-5 days where your body has to adjust to the new diet before it burns calories and fat efficiently.
 

jts

...hate me...
CICO is the the real deal but the purpose of many diets is to reach an ideal CICO without the hassle of counting calories or macros, which personally bores me. I know you get the git of it after a while, but still.

That’s why I enjoy doing fasting. Doesn’t mean I neglect what I eat during the feeding window, but it’s much more manageable.
 

sobaka770

Banned
Whatever you do - just cut sugar. Especially if you live in USA - guys, your food has so much sugar in pretty much everything it's riddiculous. Every time I (used to) travel over there I couldn't escape having the same food making me feel bloated and tasting twice sweeter for no good reason. I don't think you realise how much of it you consume or how dosages are jacked up.

Calorie counting is good but the food organisations fool you into focusing on calories and fat instead of sugar and fast carbs.

I don't know about how sustainable a full keto diet is, but it is always beneficial to start small with right moves. You can have a balanced healthy meals by eating everything but get rid of junk.
 
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Armorian

Banned
It's hilarious when people talk about these joke diets.
You'll even find 99% of the people dieting don't even do any exercise.

Because you don't need to. I lost ~19Kg around 8 years ago (118-99kg) and ~22 now (108-86kg) and that's with half calorie intake only. No excessive skin or anything.

Why would I want to waste time on exercise?
 

jts

...hate me...
Because you don't need to. I lost ~19Kg around 8 years ago (118-99kg) and ~22 now (108-86kg) and that's with half calorie intake only. No excessive skin or anything.

Why would I want to waste time on exercise?
If you want to shape up your body, because losing weight is only part of the goal for some people, but in general you are right and sometimes people getting hard on diet + exercise (especially long, boring cardio exercise with little effect on improving your body shape, and big effect on your apetite) can lead them to give up altogether. Just dieting is easier.
 

Armorian

Banned
If you want to shape up your body, because losing weight is only part of the goal for some people, but in general you are right and sometimes people getting hard on diet + exercise (especially long, boring cardio exercise with little effect on improving your body shape, and big effect on your apetite) can lead them to give up altogether. Just dieting is easier.

True, I would quit that shit for sure. I think Dontero is right and you should only do one thing at a time, lose weight trough diet, lose weight trough exercise or shape up your body with exercise while eating normally.

I'm not even houngry at all with ~1500kcal, I feel much better than with amounts I was eating before that.
 
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