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Jim Ryan says Sony’s games ‘could suffer’ by adding them to PlayStation Plus on day one (VCG)

ethomaz

Banned
That's not what Deborah told me. 😉
It is Débora.
My Facebook is public so you can check there.


But what that has to do with subscription dropping quality and invest in games?
 
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Chronicle

Member
dumb the simpsons GIF


have a nice day duderino.
Ha. So I was right. You guys all in here crying about no first party game on day one and so far Microsoft has none minus halo and forza.

I googled the list. There is really nothing on Gamepass that is comparable in scope or magnitude of some of Sonys huge blockbuster games.

That could change and I'll believe it when I see it. But as of now.... there is not much. The argument is not comparable.
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
In the end Sony is putting themselves in a position where they can change strategies on the fly, if they see the market teetering towards day 1 games being the ultimatum between success and failure they can quickly flip that switch.

At this point tho, it does not make sense and hinders revenue growth YoY for a company that needs it more than their competitor who has massive revenue streams in other avenues.

Does that mean that the value of this service is terrible? No. It gives you new games, and preserves some old games as well. Gamepass has offered very little in terms of high budget day 1 releases, especially recently (Guardians and Extraction), outside of first party (where its been dry) - could that change once these studio acquisitions gain structure? Yes, definitely.

But at this point we don't know what Sony plans to do with games, they could release major 3rd party games on there day one as well - they only specifically called out their own first party.
A sensible post without “Sony won’t be able to recover” BS. They already positioned themselves to shift if needed. Good stuff.
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
Ha. So I was right. You guys all in here crying about no first party game on day one and so far Microsoft has none minus halo and forza.

I googled the list. There is really nothing on Gamepass that is comparable in scope or magnitude of some of Sonys huge blockbuster games.

That could change and I'll believe it when I see it. But as of now.... there is not much. The argument is not comparable.
good post.
 

kingfey

Banned
Ha. So I was right. You guys all in here crying about no first party game on day one and so far Microsoft has none minus halo and forza.

I googled the list. There is really nothing on Gamepass that is comparable in scope or magnitude of some of Sonys huge blockbuster games.

That could change and I'll believe it when I see it. But as of now.... there is not much. The argument is not comparable.
Sony has yet to produce a game like halo infinite, forza horizon 5, Flight Simulator and gear of wars like games.

Just because 1 platform excels at one thing, doesn't mean the other platform has shit.

Each platform have their own games, which the other platform can't make.
 

phil_t98

Gold Member
Nope.

But in that case he is right imo.
Somebody posted another guy saying the same thing in a tweet few posts ago.

if they want to grow the games service there putting the game son day one won't hurt them, they will still sell. its not like putting games on the service day one means you stop selling the games
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Sony has yet to produce a game like halo infinite, forza horizon 5, Flight Simulator and gear of wars like games.

Just because 1 platform excels at one thing, doesn't mean the other platform has shit.

Each platform have their own games, which the other platform can't make.
Ah yes, Flight Simulator. The game everyone always brings up, but to only bring it up as a list war, since it's OT and topic is as dead as a doornail on here.

The only point I wanted to make about that specific game, since I knew that would happen and called it out prior to it ever launching. This is not the community for flight sims, but that doesn't stop people from bringing up the checkmark for a game nobody on here plays or discusses outside of that "list."

Live look at engagement gamers on Gaf playing their flight sim on Xbox after the initial take off,
 
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FritzJ92

Member
But the business you listed involves not having releases on day on subscription.
Because you want these million full priced day one sales to cover the budget costs.

It is a different story for smaller games that doesn’t sell million at launch.

My post was cleary talking about AAA budget.
I used the math of a AAA game. I literally mentioned even if your game is put on the service day 1. You’re still selling a physical copy to people who prefer a traditional method of consumption.

It’s simple math.
 

kingfey

Banned
Ah yes, Flight Simulator. The game everyone always brings up, but to only bring it up as a list war, since it's OT and topic is as dead as a doornail on here.
Flight simulator is something else.

A game, that isn't a game, yet plays like a game.

The technical power of that game is unmatched so far. And that is mainly, due to MS utilizing Google maps, and their Azure cloud infrastructure.

The only point I wanted to make about that specific game, since I knew that would happen and called it out prior to it ever launching. This is not the community for flight sims, but that doesn't stop people from bringing up the checkmark for a game nobody on here plays or discusses outside of that "list."

Live look at engagement gamers on Gaf playing their flight sim on Xbox after the initial take off,
That is a game Xbox made. Same as how you guys prop Sony, for games like Spiderman game.

Maybe you need to follow your friends points, before trying to shoot down that game.

I am objective so far, but you guys act like crazy sometimes.

Maybe it's better for me to stop getting between your console wars.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Flight simulator is something else.

A game, that isn't a game, yet plays like a game.

The technical power of that game is unmatched so far. And that is mainly, due to MS utilizing Google maps, and their Azure cloud infrastructure.


That is a game Xbox made. Same as how you guys prop Sony, for games like Spiderman game.

Maybe you need to follow your friends points, before trying to shoot down that game.

I am objective so far, but you guys act like crazy sometimes.

Maybe it's better for me to stop getting between your console wars.
It's a game MS always made. It is now a war point cause "Xbox." Just admit it, lol.

You know, the game that was never so much of a footnote on any console war site until MS decided to port to their box filling in gaps.

Great tech, but cute seeing it mentioned all the time now outside of the niche sim community.
 

ethomaz

Banned
if they want to grow the games service there putting the game son day one won't hurt them, they will still sell. its not like putting games on the service day one means you stop selling the games
I used the math of a AAA game. I literally mentioned even if your game is put on the service day 1. You’re still selling a physical copy to people who prefer a traditional method of consumption.

It’s simple math.
You will be selling way less and not enough to cover the developer costs at near term.
That is what me and the OP Jimbo are saying.

It is indeed simple math.
You have a $200m budget predicting to sell over 5 million units in the launch window at full price.
With subscription at day one launch it will just sell 2-3 million units in the same launch window at full price.

So you need to drop your budget is you want to plan to sell less at full price.
 
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kingfey

Banned
It's a game MS always made. It is now a war point cause "Xbox." Just admit it, lol.

You know, the game that was never so much of a footnote on any console war site until MS decided to port to their box filling in gaps.

Great tech, but cute seeing it mentioned all the time now outside of the niche sim community.
What are you talking about?

That is a game, Xbox made. It's exclusive for Xbox console, and windows PC.

Its Xbox game.

What else would it be? A 3rd party game?

Do you see your logic?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
What are you talking about?

That is a game, Xbox made. It's exclusive for Xbox console, and windows PC.

Its Xbox game.

What else would it be? A 3rd party game?

Do you see your logic?
B R U H

How are you extrapolating that from my post? All I said is that nobody ever mentioned the game MS always made, until it became a console war talking point. And I will stand by that statement.

Hell, nobody still talks about the game on here, unless it is brought up to war. Slow down, it's not that hard to comprehend what I am saying.
 
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Chronicle

Member
Sony has yet to produce a game like halo infinite, forza horizon 5, Flight Simulator and gear of wars like games.

Just because 1 platform excels at one thing, doesn't mean the other platform has shit.

Each platform have their own games, which the other platform can't make.
Never said it had shit just not the same in terms of blockbusters. Not even close. Gears is last gen too. It's not comparable.
 

Helghan

Member
You will be selling way less and not enough to cover the developer costs at near term.
That is what me and the OP Jimbo are saying.

It is indeed simple math.
You have a $200m budget predicting to sell over 5 million units in the launch window at full price.
With subscription at day one launch it will just sell 2-3 million units in the same launch window at full price.

So you need to drop your budget is you want to plan to sell less at full price.
Because the money coming from Game Pass will just vanish?
 

FritzJ92

Member
You will be selling way less and not enough to cover the developer costs at near term.
That is what me and the OP Jimbo are saying.

It is indeed simple math.
You have a $200m budget predicting to sell over 5 million units in the launch window at full price.
With subscription at day one launch it will just sell 2-3 million units in the same launch window at full price.

So you need to drop your budget is you want to plan to sell less at full price.
Why aren’t you taking into account revenue of the subscribers? We are talking about total revenue made from all distribution methods are we not?
 

JLB

Member
Ah yes, Flight Simulator. The game everyone always brings up, but to only bring it up as a list war, since it's OT and topic is as dead as a doornail on here.

The only point I wanted to make about that specific game, since I knew that would happen and called it out prior to it ever launching. This is not the community for flight sims, but that doesn't stop people from bringing up the checkmark for a game nobody on here plays or discusses outside of that "list."

Live look at engagement gamers on Gaf playing their flight sim on Xbox after the initial take off,

Gotcha. A masterpiece cannot be a masterpiece if its not a widely commercial success.
Did you know that The Thing, one of -if not- the best terror movie of all times was a complete, massive failure at the time of release?
If a game is a masterpice, a game is a masterpice. Dont try to trick yourself on these kind of mental gymnastics.
 

kingfey

Banned
B R U H

How are you extrapolating that from my post? All I said is that nobody ever mentioned the game MS always made, until it became a console war talking point. And I will stand by that statement.

Hell, nobody still talks about the game on here, unless it is brought up to war. Slow down, it's not that hard to comprehend what I am saying.
Because it freaking hit xbox series consoles.
The game being on xbox series counts as xbox game. It's why people are talking about.
Same as how age of empire is exclusive to PC.
 

kingfey

Banned
Never said it had shit just not the same in terms of blockbusters. Not even close. Gears is last gen too. It's not comparable.
What is your definition of blockbuster?
Because you can't consider a certain genre a blockbuster.
Unless 1 company owns that term.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Because the money coming from Game Pass will just vanish?
Why aren’t you taking into account revenue of the subscribers? We are talking about total revenue made from all distribution methods are we not?
I think you guys have no ideia how Gamepass revenue works.
Let's clear here.

When you put a game on Gamepass you expected to receive a parcel of the revenue subs based in how much people played your game (there is the very few exceptions that MS pays upfront but that is not how the actually works for 99% of the games there).
That is very little parcel but it come every month while the subscribers are playing your game.

To cover a $200m budget it can take months or even years... at the end the revenue from the subscription can even surpass the one of full priced sales if the game have continuous subscribers playing it for years.

But you invested $200m... you can't wait months or years to recover it... you have to already recovered and profit to invest in a new project.
So with full priced sales you have that... you pay your costs at launch windows and already accumulate funds to the next project.
You can set high budget because you know you will get it fast in the launch window (if not your made a failure).

With subscription having the game at day one you need to plan different.... you set lower budget target because you know it will take time to recover it.

If you kill decrease the number of full priced sales then you need to invest less in your games and so you have a different approach in development... the most time the subscriber keep playing your game more you will receive per month and you want them to play that game near forever... and that add mechanics that keep you playing it... that is why GAAS is better fit for subscription services with low investiment.

When you plan a big AAA budget game you target a number of sales at full price to cover all costs... it is a near term plan... you delivery, you recoup, you start to dev again, delivery, recoup, etc.
Subscription is a long term.... you need time waiting the game recoup.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Gotcha. A masterpiece cannot be a masterpiece if its not a widely commercial success.
Where did I say that?

I just said that people who don't give a shit about it when it comes to gaming outside of a listwar is amusing with that specific game. And it was something I called the moment it was announced for consoles. I said many times that game will only be a list footnote, and none of you will really care about it when it comes time for actual gameplay discussion.

And The Thing is brought up far more often in movie scope/trope, than FS engagement on Xbox and all those FS fans discussing it's nuances inside and out on Gaf.

Y'all know you don't play that shit. You can't even keep the OT alive that has been dead for almost a year outside of IbizaPocholo IbizaPocholo video bumps.
 

JLB

Member
Where did I say that?

I just said that people who don't give a shit about it when it comes to gaming outside of a listwar is amusing with that specific game. And it was something I called the moment it was announced for consoles. I said many times that game will only be a list footnote, and none of you will really care about it when it comes time for actual gameplay discussion.

And The Thing is brought up far more often in movie scope/trope, than FS engagement on Xbox and all those FS fans discussing it's nuances inside and out on Gaf.

Y'all know you don't play that shit. You can't even keep the OT alive that has been dead for almost a year outside of IbizaPocholo IbizaPocholo video bumps.

Excuse sir, but I play that shit a lot.
Hopefully posting into an OT in GAF is not mandatory to play FS.
 
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Chronicle

Member
What is your definition of blockbuster?
Because you can't consider a certain genre a blockbuster.
Unless 1 company owns that term.
Thing of great size and power and going to be a huge success.

Are games like Elden Ring, Cyberpunk, Call of Duty, GTA and Mario releasing day one on gamepass?

Spiderman, tlou2, God of war, gt7?

Those are huge blockbuster games. Big games that are set to be commercial successes, move units and create a buzz in the industry.

Halo and Forza would be a huge game for Microsoft. Do you disagree with that?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Excuse sir, but I play that shit a lot.
Hopefully posting into an OT in GAF is not mandatory to play FS.
Stop being painfully obtuse. You know damned well what I mean with my posts in here.

All sides are guilty of it, you don't need to defend it.

As for others arguing, Flight Sim, fantastic tech, always enjoyed the series and played the originals on up for the PC... but a "blockbuster" it is not. And porting to the Xbox brand does not all of a sudden add to the "blockbuster" list.

It's a mere footnote in the overall console gaming arena.
 
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Swift_Star

Gold Member
Sony has yet to produce a game like halo infinite, forza horizon 5, Flight Simulator and gear of wars like games.

Just because 1 platform excels at one thing, doesn't mean the other platform has shit.

Each platform have their own games, which the other platform can't make.
Those games wish they were in the same league as God of War.
 
It sounds to me like he is saying this to take a jab as the MS model. Jim wants his version to come off as a more premium feeling product, even though its really just a rebranding and consolidation of existing services.
 

kingfey

Banned
Thing of great size and power and going to be a huge success.

Are games like Elden Ring, Cyberpunk, Call of Duty, GTA and Mario releasing day one on gamepass?

Spiderman, tlou2, God of war, gt7?

Those are huge blockbuster games. Big games that are set to be commercial successes, move units and create a buzz in the industry.

Halo and Forza would be a huge game for Microsoft. Do you disagree with that?
Well ES6, Call of Duty are going to be day1 on the service.
Unless those aren't blockbuster.
Starfield would also be day1 on the surface. Unless that game isn't also a blockbuster.
 

Chronicle

Member
Well ES6, Call of Duty are going to be day1 on the service.
Unless those aren't blockbuster.
Starfield would also be day1 on the surface. Unless that game isn't also a blockbuster.
Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. Those are all huge games and no doubt blockbusters. Huge wins for Microsoft (sadly) but again only when I see it will it be true.

Do you even own a playstation? Just wondering.
 

yurinka

Member
You should have put a trademark tm at the end of this sentence. Lol
You may not like it but it's a fact, mr. Putin. But looking at frequent claims made frequently on gaf seems many people don't know it or want to accept it, this is why I repeat it.
 

Helghan

Member
When you put a game on Gamepass you expected to receive a parcel of the revenue subs based in how much people played your game (there is the very few exceptions that MS pays upfront but that is not how the actually works for 99% of the games there).
That is very little parcel but it come every month while the subscribers are playing your game.
That's pretty interesting, do you have a source for this? Because I would think there is always some upfront cost, based on the game this has a specific price. And then a supplement based on how many people played the actual game, which probably scales exponentially the more people play it.

To cover a $200m budget it can take months or even years... at the end the revenue from the subscription can even surpass the one of full priced sales if the game have continuous subscribers playing it for years.

But you invested $200m... you can't wait months or years to recover it... you have to already recovered and profit to invest in a new project.
So with full priced sales you have that... you pay your costs at launch windows and already accumulate funds to the next project.
You can set high budget because you know you will get it fast in the launch window (if not your made a failure).

With subscription having the game at day one you need to plan different.... you set lower budget target because you know it will take time to recover it.

If you kill decrease the number of full priced sales then you need to invest less in your games and so you have a different approach in development... the most time the subscriber keep playing your game more you will receive per month and you want them to play that game near forever... and that add mechanics that keep you playing it... that is why GAAS is better fit for subscription services with low investiment.

When you plan a big AAA budget game you target a number of sales at full price to cover all costs... it is a near term plan... you delivery, you recoup, you start to dev again, delivery, recoup, etc.
Subscription is a long term.... you need time waiting the game recoup.
What you are saying makes sense, but only for 3rd party games. Microsoft has enough bank to fund the creation of 200m budget games, which is spread out over a period of 5 years. And during that period they are selling Game Pass subscriptions which helps fund the development of these games. Only now in the beginning they have to fund it from scratch, but that's not really an issue because the amount of profit Microsoft makes is ridiculous. In the long run they'll also earn that back IF (big if) Game Pass is the success they think it will be.

In case of 3rd party games this is different, and I think you are correct. But big 3rd party games of those budgets aren't day 1 on Game Pass, probably for that reason.
 
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Hestar69

Member
Those games wish they were in the same league as God of War.
I'm sorry GOW is not that great of a game. I had more fun playing Halo SP ( mp is ass) than the few hrs I played of GOW. Shit, I just started Horizion FW and I can tell it's a better game than GOW.

OT:

Sony does have the better first person IPS and ppl will buy them for 70 so why add them to a game pass..Half ass it like nintendo and makes some easy $$ by adding old ps 1,2,3 games
 
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kingfey

Banned
Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. Those are all huge games and no doubt blockbusters. Huge wins for Microsoft (sadly) but again only when I see it will it be true.

Do you even own a playstation? Just wondering.
What type? Ps4, or ps5? Or you mean their games on steam?

I am not part of either tribe here. Since I don't like simping for a company.
 

Haggard

Member
I'm sorry GOW is not that great of a game. I had more fun playing Halo SP ( mp is ass) than the few hrs I played of GOW. Shit, I just started Horizion FW and I can tell it's a better game than GOW.
How about you learn to differentiate between your personal taste and objective quality.
 

Haggard

Member
I am objective I like both sony and MS. I think GOW isn't as good as game as ppl praise it to be.it's called my opinion.
How about you learn to differentiate between your opinion and objective facts.

"I think xyz" is absolutely valid but also mostly subjective. "xyz is not that great of a game" is a generalization and simply not for you to decide.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
That's pretty interesting, do you have a source for this? Because I would think there is always some upfront cost, based on the game this has a specific price. And then a supplement based on how many people played the actual game, which probably scales exponentially the more people play it.
Phil explained the models.

Smaller developers seems to be asking for upfront money.
Others (here most likely includes first-party and maybe timed-exclusives) MS is funding the development them with the retail sales going to developer.
And big developers wants what he call "usage and monetization".

We are talking about big AAA games so I'm really in the side they are splinting revenue based in "usage / monetization".
Makes no sense for games with big push of players to choose the other two options.


What you are saying makes sense, but only for 3rd party games. Microsoft has enough bank to fund the creation of 200m budget games, which is spread out over a period of 5 years. And during that period they are selling Game Pass subscriptions which helps fund the development of these games. Only now in the beginning they have to fund it from scratch, but that's not really an issue because the amount of profit Microsoft makes is ridiculous. In the long run they'll also earn that back IF (big if) Game Pass is the success they think it will be.

In case of 3rd party games this is different, and I think you are correct. But big 3rd party games of those budgets aren't day 1 on Game Pass, probably for that reason.
Sony Studios are owned by Sony but they are independent... they create define their budget, targets and stuffs... of course they report to Sony but it is not a direct decision by Sony... it is not different from a 3rd-party Studio working for Sony.
I don't know how MS Studios works.
 

JLB

Member
Stop being painfully obtuse. You know damned well what I mean with my posts in here.

All sides are guilty of it, you don't need to defend it.

As for others arguing, Flight Sim, fantastic tech, always enjoyed the series and played the originals on up for the PC... but a "blockbuster" it is not. And porting to the Xbox brand does not all of a sudden add to the "blockbuster" list.

It's a mere footnote in the overall console gaming arena.

Sure mr Enigma.
Please proceed to explain now why Ratchet and Clank is blockbuster but Psychnauts 2 is not, for some of the premium and essential brains around here repeating that.
 
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Lognor

Member
How about you learn to differentiate between your personal taste and objective quality.
It's also personal taste that swift star said gow is better than those games. I've never played the new gow, but from what I've seen I prefer the ms offerings. Again, personal taste.
 
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Hestar69

Member
Personally I´d agree with that, still a lame trolling attempt kiddo.
not a troll..I platted TLOU 2 and it was my GOTY. I seriously got bored of GOW a few hrs in and stopped playing it.I just don't get the hype the game got. it's very meh. I even think heavenly sword is better than any GOW game.
 
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kingfey

Banned
Sure mr Enigma.
Please proceed to explain now why Ratchet and Clank is blockbuster but Psychnauts 2 is not, for some the premium and essential brains around here.
Don't bother. Most games aren't blockbuster apparently these days.

People only associate the game sales for blockbuster. Not what game has.
Quality is also about the price, despite Nintendo games having inferior quality, but enjoyable gameplay.

I dont know, what happened to gamers, who only cared about gameplay.
This new fanboys generation is shit.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Sure mr Enigma.
Please proceed to explain now why Ratchet and Clank is blockbuster but Psychnauts 2 is not, for some the premium and essential brains around here.
Dear Mr JLB,

Why are we now pivoting to Psychonauts? But to answer that one, mass appeal would fall under the "Blockbuster" definition.

I was specifically commenting on Flight Sim, because I know I am damned right about that one when people only bring it up to "pad a list." Most who hyped it, were never to be seen talking about it again post launch.

Great tech, always has been a competent sim, love the modding... Blockbuster by definition on Xbox, it is not.
Don't bother. Most games aren't blockbuster apparently these days.

People only associate the game sales for blockbuster. Not what game has.
Quality is also about the price, despite Nintendo games having inferior quality, but enjoyable gameplay.

I dont know, what happened to gamers, who only cared about gameplay.
This new fanboys generation is shit.
B R U H
 
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Helghan

Member
Phil explained the models.

Smaller developers seems to be asking for upfront money.
Others (here most likely includes first-party and maybe timed-exclusives) MS is funding the development them with the retail sales going to developer.
And big developers wants what he call "usage and monetization".

We are talking about big AAA games so I'm really in the side they are splinting revenue based in "usage / monetization".
Makes no sense for games with big push of players to choose the other two options.
So there are a lot of different types of ways. Your whole thesis was based on only one of those cases. Obviously that doesn't make sense anymore then.

Sony Studios are owned by Sony but they are independent... they create define their budget, targets and stuffs... of course they report to Sony but it is not a direct decision by Sony... it is not different from a 3rd-party Studio working for Sony.
I don't know how MS Studios works.
It will be very similar. You give a budget to a studio which they have to manage.

But your explanation on why the model wouldn't work doesn't make sense anymore.
 
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