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Opinion Cringe Retro Is Alien vs. Predator Jaguar open-world or nahh?

Is Alien vs. Predator Jaguar open-world or nahh?

  • yeah, absolutely.

    Votes: 2 3.1%
  • nahh, not at all, it is still the same key hunting.

    Votes: 23 35.4%
  • It's Metroidvania-esque

    Votes: 7 10.8%
  • more open than most FPS back then, but not enough to be called open-world

    Votes: 30 46.2%
  • I have another opinion that will write in the comments

    Votes: 3 4.6%

  • Total voters
    65

TheMay30thMan

Member
Aug 23, 2018
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Show me where I cannot differentiate between facts and opinions, nor have a constructive discussion.
Also make yourself familiar with logical fallacies.
Do not manipulate here. I wrote perception standards and sensu stricto definition.
Killer Instinct was released in 1994. Obviously you won't comment because I am right about it.
-I have tried to show you several times. Hilariously, your entire post is nothing more than your opinion. Literally nothing you said is a fact, it's just what your opinion on the game.
-I am familiar with logical fallacies. This is an online gaming forum, not a world-renowned paper, and not an English course. Opinions are riddled with fallacies. Just calling out a fallacy is not a constructive way to debunk someone's opinion.
-I didn't manipulate, I paraphrased.
-I didn't comment on it because it was unrelated and irrelevant to my comments. You tend to bring up unwarranted subjects to avoid having to answer.

This is really all I care to comment on. Your entire response consists of regurgitated ramblings that you've already said to other users. You may enjoy talking in circles, but it doesn't bring anything into the discussion for me.
 

CamHostage

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Sep 30, 2004
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No, I don't believe Jaguar's AVP is open world. That being said, I've seen several references to Prey 2017 being "open-world," so I don't know what to believe anymore.

A game can wear many badges. Being a hard-liner about whether a game is or is not part of X or Y genre doesn't really help much unless you're organizing a library. Otherwise, it's all a discussion, which is the fun (and the headache) of this thread, that there's not a "right" answer (despite how insane some opinions may seem...)

It's good to discuss where a game fits a genre definition and where it slips or expands it, as it opens our eyes to the complexities of games. And for designers, understanding a game or piece of art's place in genre terms can encourage them to explore concepts beyond what's set in stone when they see another work bend or break the barriers of a genre.

Alien vs Predator Jag, for instance, is a game where you mostly walk around in first person, shooting enemies, so it looks and plays and could easily be pocketed as a "FPS" ... well, the Marine shoots, the Predator can but doesn't always shoot, and the Alien doesn't have any shooting weapons, so already, it's something else - maybe it's a FPS/M (First-Person Shooter/Melee'er)? And that's just the perspective and the combat mechanics. It's also a Horror Game. It's also an Exploration / Maze Game. It's also a Score Attack Game (which is rare in FPSes, as games of that era tended to prioritize finishing the game over scoring.) It's a Movie Franchise Game, and a Mash-Up Game. It is, according to the creators, a Simulator Game, amongst other things. It's maybe an Open World Game (or some early concept of it?)

The point shouldn't be what a game is or isn't (though it really, really helps when we have a common language,) it should be what is interesting and appealing about a game and games like it.
 
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nkarafo

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Lol. Where did I complain that people aren't impressed by games released in 1994? You need to get rest because your brain is not working anymore.
⬇️⬇️⬇️
It has a huge consequence if you experience games when they were released. As a proof no game from 1994 can impress any gamer nowadays.

I do agree that old games can't have the same "wow" factor as back in the day. That's true for most games. Thing is, AVP never had much of a WoW factor to begin with. Unless it was "WoW! This game runs like shit!"

You know which game had a huge wow factor and turned heads with it's amazing tech and level design? Hint: It was made by iD in late 1993.
 
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molasar

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-I have tried to show you several times. Hilariously, your entire post is nothing more than your opinion. Literally nothing you said is a fact, it's just what your opinion on the game.
-I am familiar with logical fallacies. This is an online gaming forum, not a world-renowned paper, and not an English course. Opinions are riddled with fallacies. Just calling out a fallacy is not a constructive way to debunk someone's opinion.
-I didn't manipulate, I paraphrased.
-I didn't comment on it because it was unrelated and irrelevant to my comments. You tend to bring up unwarranted subjects to avoid having to answer.

This is really all I care to comment on. Your entire response consists of regurgitated ramblings that you've already said to other users. You may enjoy talking in circles, but it doesn't bring anything into the discussion for me.
- again, empty statements
- you still have not debunk me
- you manipulate by taking words out of context, it is not how honest paraphrasing should be done. That is why you were called out on it
- do not manipulate again, I gave an example of very impressive game for its time which obviously is not nowadays. But you stated that it should. Again eristics do not work on me.

As expected you wanted to win with me using nonsense. Even if I warned you about it. Lol.
 

TheMay30thMan

Member
Aug 23, 2018
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A game can wear many badges. Being a hard-liner about whether a game is or is not part of X or Y genre doesn't really help much unless you're organizing a library. Otherwise, it's all a discussion, which is the fun (and the headache) of this thread, that there's not a "right" answer (despite how insane some opinions may seem...)

It's good to discuss where a game fits a genre definition and where it slips or expands it, as it opens our eyes to the complexities of games. And for designers, understanding a game or piece of art's place in genre terms can encourage them to explore concepts beyond what's set in stone when they see another work bend or break the barriers of a genre.

Alien vs Predator Jag, for instance, is a game where you mostly walk around in first person, shooting enemies, so it looks and plays and could easily be pocketed as a "FPS" ... well, the Marine shoots, the Predator can but doesn't always shoot, and the Alien doesn't have any shooting weapons, so already, it's something else - maybe it's a FPS/M (First-Person Shooter/Melee'er)? And that's just the perspective and the combat mechanics. It's also a Horror Game. It's also an Exploration / Maze Game. It's also a Score Attack Game (which is rare in FPSes, as games of that era tended to prioritize finishing the game over scoring.) It's a Movie Franchise Game, and a Mash-Up Game. It is, according to the creators, a Simulator Game, amongst other things. It's maybe an Open World Game (or some early concept of it?)
The part that floors me, regarding Prey, is the amount of different areas you need to load to. I see and understand the argument. Every part of Talos is open to the player to explore. The problem, for me, is that you need to load into every area. I don't believe it can be classified as an open world game if it's cut into sections, but I understand how others can. Personally, I believe everyone's concept of open world will be challenged as the years go by. Given that developers continue to pursue bold and innovative ideas.

I even understand where molasar is coming from with AVP1994's "open-world." I just can't agree that it's not an FPS whatsoever, which is what he's arguing. No game is only one genre, but AVP clearly fits into the FPS genre, among other things.
 
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nkarafo

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A game can wear many badges. Being a hard-liner about whether a game is or is not part of X or Y genre doesn't really help much unless you're organizing a library. Otherwise, it's all a discussion, which is the fun (and the headache) of this thread, that there's not a "right" answer (despite how insane some opinions may seem...)
I mean, i agree with this. I even agree with molasar that AVP isn't just an FPS but has more elements.

But if you use the same logic for other games, the same person (who tries so hard to convince everyone about AVP being an open world game) dismisses it.

Like how i used the same logic to prove that DOOM isn't just an FPS game either. Your objective isn't to kill monsters but to find your way to the exit. Even without monsters, the levels are complex and interesting enough to explore and a challenge to solve. Most of the time you spend in a level (that you never played before) is exploring, not fighting. Like figuring out where to go. There's even a community challenge in DOOM games called "pacifist runs" where you complete as many levels as you can without shooting a single monster. Instead you use other tactics (like monsters infighting) to clear some harder areas. I mean, how is a game an FPS if you don't even really need to shoot anything?

I'm not saying it's not an FPS... But using the same arguments, even a game like DOOM, which is the FPS poster boy, can avoid that distinction.

But nah... he just dismisses this. So he doesn't really care about categorizing games correctly, he just tries to convince everyone in this thread that his favorite game is more special than everyone ever thought.
 
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molasar

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⬇️⬇️⬇️


I do agree that old games can't have the same "wow" factor as back in the day. That's true for most games. Thing is, AVP never had much of a WoW factor to begin with. Unless it was "WoW! This game runs like shit!"

You know which game had a huge wow factor and turned heads with it's amazing tech and level design? Hint: It was made by iD in late 1993.
Lol. You really have some mental issues. My following comment "It has a huge consequence if you experience games when they were released. As a proof no game from 1994 can impress any gamer nowadays." is not a complain. It is a fact what occurs.

Then explain me why Doom did not wow anyone from my place? What was wrong with us? No fans of it, no one cared but everyone was interested in Jag's AvP.
Mortal Kombat 1 and 2 did with their digitized characters though. But Doom. Lol. No fandom at all.
I remember it as a disappointment because some video game magazines built a hype about it but it was only like a tech novelty for its time.
 

Agent X

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It's good to discuss where a game fits a genre definition and where it slips or expands it, as it opens our eyes to the complexities of games. And for designers, understanding a game or piece of art's place in genre terms can encourage them to explore concepts beyond what's set in stone when they see another work bend or break the barriers of a genre.

Good post.

It's very much possible for a game to straddle multiple genres. While I would categorize AvP as a first-person shooter, there are elements of other genres. For example, as you pointed out, the Alien doesn't even shoot, so the "shooter" aspect isn't present when you play as the Alien. The game also has elements of exploration and adventure that weren't frequently seen in 3D first-person games at the time. That is where the game succeeds. While some might view AvP as a slow-paced Wolfenstein 3D clone, these distinct gameplay and artistic elements gave the game personality, and set it apart from so many other similar efforts.
 
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nkarafo

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Then explain me why Doom did not wow anyone from my place? What was wrong with us? No fans of it, no one cared but everyone was interested in Jag's AvP.
You probably live in a bizzaro-land.

Everyone and their mothers were impressed by Doom when it was released. How could they not, the game engine was far and above anything else in comparison. Even if you didn't like it, there's no way you didn't notice people who did, especially if you were such an experienced gamer in the 90's as you say you are.

Also, lol about it being a "tech novelty". Even now a huge community is active and players still play Doom. Is it still a graphics novelty almost 30 years later? As if anything you ever posted makes any sense.
 
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TheMay30thMan

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- again, empty statements
- you still have not debunk me
- you manipulate by taking words out of context, it is not how honest paraphrasing should be done. That is why you were called out on it
- do not manipulate again, I gave an example of very impressive game for its time which obviously is not nowadays. But you stated that it should. Again eristics do not work on me.

As expected you wanted to win with me using nonsense. Even if I warned you about it. Lol.
I didn't come here to win. I came here to tell you that your opinion isn't law. It's clear, from your answers here, that you only intend to deflect criticism that threatens the perfect world you live in. Enjoy your "win."
 

molasar

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Jun 20, 2018
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I mean, i agree with this. I even agree with molasar that AVP isn't just an FPS but has more elements.

But if you use the same logic for other games, the same person (who tries so hard to convince everyone about AVP being an open world game) dismisses it.

Like how i used the same logic to prove that DOOM isn't just an FPS game either. Your objective isn't to kill monsters but to find your way to the exit. Even without monsters, the levels are complex and interesting enough to explore and a challenge to solve. Most of the time you spend in a level (that you never played before) is exploring, not fighting. Like figuring out where to go. There's even a community challenge in DOOM games called "pacifist runs" where you complete as many levels as you can without shooting a single monster. Instead you use other tactics (like monsters infighting) to clear some harder areas. I mean, how is a game an FPS if you don't even really need to shoot anything?

I'm not saying it's not an FPS... But using the same arguments, even a game like DOOM, which is the FPS poster boy, can avoid that distinction.

But nah... he just dismisses this. So he doesn't rally care about categorizing games correctly, he just tries to convince everyone in this thread that his favorite game is more special than everyone ever thought.

Lol. Even more manipulations and projection.

I already mentioned all elements of AvP. And you cannot sell Doom as maze collecathlon game on its own. It was always about shooting in more advanced environment than Wolf3D was.

The majority of gamers are not interested in speedruns or specific runs. They choose to move to a new shiny game.

Also let's not forget that light gun games are FPS too.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Oct 26, 2018
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A game can wear many badges. Being a hard-liner about whether a game is or is not part of X or Y genre doesn't really help much unless you're organizing a library. Otherwise, it's all a discussion, which is the fun (and the headache) of this thread, that there's not a "right" answer (despite how insane some opinions may seem...)

It's good to discuss where a game fits a genre definition and where it slips or expands it, as it opens our eyes to the complexities of games. And for designers, understanding a game or piece of art's place in genre terms can encourage them to explore concepts beyond what's set in stone when they see another work bend or break the barriers of a genre.

Alien vs Predator Jag, for instance, is a game where you mostly walk around in first person, shooting enemies, so it looks and plays and could easily be pocketed as a "FPS" ... well, the Marine shoots, the Predator can but doesn't always shoot, and the Alien doesn't have any shooting weapons, so already, it's something else - maybe it's a FPS/M (First-Person Shooter/Melee'er)? And that's just the perspective and the combat mechanics. It's also a Horror Game. It's also an Exploration / Maze Game. It's also a Score Attack Game (which is rare in FPSes, as games of that era tended to prioritize finishing the game over scoring.) It's a Movie Franchise Game, and a Mash-Up Game. It is, according to the creators, a Simulator Game, amongst other things. It's maybe an Open World Game (or some early concept of it?)

The point shouldn't be what a game is or isn't (though it really, really helps when we have a common language,) it should be what is interesting and appealing about a game and games like it.
Good post.

It's very much possible for a game to straddle multiple genres. While I would categorize AvP as a first-person shooter, there are elements of other genres. For example, as you pointed out, the Alien doesn't even shoot, so the "shooter" aspect isn't present when you play as the Alien. The game also has elements of exploration and adventure that weren't frequently seen in 3D first-person games at the time. That is where the game succeeds. While some might view AvP as a slow-paced Wolfenstein 3D clone, these distinct gameplay and artistic elements gave the game personality, and set it apart from so many other similar efforts.
The part that floors me, regarding Prey, is the amount of different areas you need to load to. I see and understand the argument. Every part of Talos is open to the player to explore. The problem, for me, is that you need to load into every area. I don't believe it can be classified as an open world game if it's cut into sections, but I understand how others can. Personally, I believe everyone's concept of open world will be challenged as the years go by. Given that developers continue to pursue bold and innovative ideas.

I even understand where molasar is coming from with AVP1994's "open-world." I just can't agree that it's not an FPS whatsoever, which is what he's arguing. No game is only one genre, but AVP clearly fits into the FPS genre, among other things.
Of course games can be different genres. Bayou Billy is one part side brawler, one part shooting gallery, one part driving game.

The difference is that for AVP, molasar doesn't like it when gamers call AVP an FPS. He claims it's a "simulation" game.
 
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molasar

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I just can't agree that it's not an FPS whatsoever, which is what he's arguing.

Emphasis is not put on FPS element in it only. Thus no FPS game. Even general killing score system does not make sense as you can do a save and load trick to respawn enemies to make it as high as you want to.
 

molasar

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You probably live in a bizzaro-land.

Everyone and their mothers were impressed by Doom when it was released. How could they not, the game engine was far and above anything else in comparison. Even if you didn't like it, there's no way you didn't notice people who did, especially if you were such an experienced gamer in the 90's as you say you are.

Also, lol about it being a "tech novelty". Even now a huge community is active and players still play Doom. Is it still a graphics novelty almost 30 years later? As if anything you ever posted makes any sense.

Yes, an uncle of your friend who works in Nintendo HQ even was. What a delusion. Somehow I have not noticed any huge fans in my place.

Yes, a tech novelty. Once a better arrives, the old one is forgotten like a yesterday paper.

Who cares if some people play old Doom.

What graphics novelty? Like what pixel art? Lol.

You sound like some religious zealot.
 

Agent X

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Considering how bad Jaguar sales were, it can be argued AVP killed the system. If AVP was promoted as the game to get for Jaguar and this is what happened to Jaguar, it shows nobody except for a maximum of 250,000 people agreed.

AvP didn't kill the system. More on this in a moment.

I just checked. I didn't know Wolfenstein came out for Jaguar too.

What they should had done is promote Wolfenstein and Doom as killer console software, which at the time would probably be the best console editions. PS and Saturn werent out yet.

Atari did promote Wolfenstein 3D and Doom at the time. Those games, alone with AvP and Tempest 2000, were the biggest "system sellers" that the Jaguar had. All of those games got great reviews and sold well (relative to other Jaguar games, of course). Those games all did their jobs.

The system's reputation was harmed because of the horribly slow release schedule (only ten games throughout the entire first year), followed by several other games that were delayed for many months and turned out to be highly disappointing.
 

molasar

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I didn't come here to win. I came here to tell you that your opinion isn't law. It's clear, from your answers here, that you only intend to deflect criticism that threatens the perfect world you live in. Enjoy your "win."

So far you have not presented any constructive criticism. Also facts are not my opinion.
 

nkarafo

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Literally molasar:

 

TheMay30thMan

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Of course games can be different genres. Bayou Billy is one part side brawler, one part shooting gallery, one part driving game.

The difference is that for AVP, molasar doesn't like it when gamers call AVP an FPS. He claims it's a "simulation" game.
Are video games not inherently simulations?

Jokes aside, I never argued that games can’t be multi-genre. I fear I fell for the tricks of the troll under the bridge.
 

molasar

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Of course games can be different genres. Bayou Billy is one part side brawler, one part shooting gallery, one part driving game.

The difference is that for AVP, molasar doesn't like it when gamers call AVP an FPS. He claims it's a "simulation" game.

Lol. The game itself claims it is a simulation. Bear in mind that back then (a very experimental decade) there were not genres established like there are nowadays.

Thus they coined it a simulation, not FPS.
 

StreetsofBeige

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Emphasis is not put on FPS element in it only. Thus no FPS game. Even general killing score system does not make sense as you can do a save and load trick to respawn enemies to make it as high as you want to.
Then all these websites and old reviewers were wrong describing AVP as a FPS or comparing to Wolfenstein or Doom.


Even an archived official Atari site described it as a shoot 'em up.


The hottest science-fiction movie villains now face off in this action-packed slayfest! Play the part of an Alien and wreak havoc on the poor colonists. Go on safari as a mighty Predator, and use your high-tech weaponry to add to your trophy collection. You can also play a Colonial Marine, fighting against the odds to save your base from this double invasion! Real-time mapping, cool onscreen weapons and status displays all make this one of the best shoot-em-up games ever. If you loved the movies, then you'll kill for this game!

- Texture-mapped 3D world, with lifelike enemies
- Miles of corridors and rooms to explore and conquer
- Play and Alien, a Predator or a Colonial Marine
- A variety of weapons and tricks for each character
- Digitized sounds from the movies for extra realism
 

nkarafo

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I knew that without arguments this is all what is left for you. I did not want to join your religion back then and I do not want to now. Lol.

Why would anyone continue providing arguments to you when all you do is

 
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molasar

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Then all these websites and old reviewers were wrong describing AVP as a FPS or comparing to Wolfenstein or Doom.
I already commented why the game was coined as a simulation and not FPS. But of course you can take separate aspects of it and compare it to dedicated games. Yet the whole game is a mix of all its aspects. You can also ask yourself why genre names like open world or survival horror or over the shoulder TPS were not in use yet.

Even an archived official Atari site described it as a shoot 'em up.
And it proves my point. In other words they stated kill'em all. Were they accurate about it?

The hottest science-fiction movie villains now face off in this action-packed slayfest! Play the part of an Alien and wreak havoc on the poor colonists. Go on safari as a mighty Predator, and use your high-tech weaponry to add to your trophy collection. You can also play a Colonial Marine, fighting against the odds to save your base from this double invasion! Real-time mapping, cool onscreen weapons and status displays all make this one of the best shoot-em-up games ever. If you loved the movies, then you'll kill for this game!

- Texture-mapped 3D world, with lifelike enemies
- Miles of corridors and rooms to explore and conquer
- Play and Alien, a Predator or a Colonial Marine
- A variety of weapons and tricks for each character
- Digitized sounds from the movies for extra realism

You do not have to cite me reviews from those times. It won't change the fact that the game is mixing elements from more genres.
I remember magazines which were stating that the game will be an interactive movie with digitized characters. It was working on imagination because it was about Aliens, Predators and Colonial Marines.
 

molasar

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And Mario Bros 2 isn't a platform game. It's a dream simulator.

Is there not some power up in it that lets Mario shoot or throw some stuff? Thus making it 2D TPS according to your logic. Lol.
 
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molasar

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You mean your logic.

Nope your logic. You choose one element which fits your narrative and you call games based on it. Lol. For you Resident Evil'96 must be TPS and not 3D survival horror with fixed camera system even if it still mixes various elements. But for you there are guns and monsters.
 
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Except they did not know what to compare it to as it was something completely new on the market. Thus they have chosen poorly.
They did, they compared it to games that are similar, which are Doom and Wolfenstein.
No one went back and changed AvsP to be anything other than an FPS.
 
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Thus the unwashed masses who never played it like you take those old reviews for granted.
Not true. I also take about every empirical source you can find and Atari's wording in their official games guide from '95 for granted. Not to mention the developers themselves saying they were clearly inspired by Doom and Wolfenstein... but I guess even if the developers themselves would be here and outright say that it is an FPS you'd disagree.
 
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molasar

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Not true. I also take about every empirical source you can find and Atari's wording in their official games guide from '95 for granted. Not to mention the developers themselves saying they were clearly inspired by Doom and Wolfenstein... but I guess even if the developers themselves would be here and outright say that it is an FPS you'd disagree.

Everything has been explained in previous comments.
In short FPS is only one of many aspects that make this game as a whole.
Thus it is your problem, not mine.
 
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molasar

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Anyway, I'll play Forza Horizon now, which btw. is not a racing game, it's an open-world car RPG and a life simulator. Racing is only an element of it.

Exactly. Forza Horizon is mixing many elements and it is not a game from 80s or 90s where new things were being invented.
Also you can find my comments about it where I was explaining people like you why FH is not an arcade racer.
 

MvCSpiderman

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Nope. It seems so you have not played the game.
Yes I have you don't have the space requirements. There was and is a actual defined description for open world you are ignoring by peddling subjective arguments.

AvP doesn't meet it, the fact you haven't looked up the definition this whole thread shows you never really understood what open world means in gaming in the first place.

Id recommend looking back at the definition of open world at the time this game was out. Which was the same definition as 2D open games that started with MuDs. You likely don't know what that is either.
 

molasar

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Yes I have you don't have the space requirements. There was and is a actual defined description for open world you are ignoring by peddling subjective arguments.

AvP doesn't meet it, the fact you haven't looked up the definition this whole thread shows you never really understood what open world means in gaming in the first place.

Id recommend looking back at the definition of open world at the time this game was out. Which was the same definition as 2D open games that started with MuDs. You likely don't know what that is either.

Again. You have access to the whole base and two spacecrafts docked to it. Not just corridors. So it is an open world. And everything was explained by me in previous comments.

No to mention your wikipedia definition actually agrees with Jag's AvP being an open world game.

And do not make me laugh about MuDs. BTW I never liked text games.