• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Cringe Retro Is Alien vs. Predator Jaguar open-world or nahh?

Is Alien vs. Predator Jaguar open-world or nahh?

  • yeah, absolutely.

    Votes: 2 3.1%
  • nahh, not at all, it is still the same key hunting.

    Votes: 23 35.4%
  • It's Metroidvania-esque

    Votes: 7 10.8%
  • more open than most FPS back then, but not enough to be called open-world

    Votes: 30 46.2%
  • I have another opinion that will write in the comments

    Votes: 3 4.6%

  • Total voters
    65

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
Here is something that will blow your mind, AVP takes place within a simulator. So the simulation part of that sentence is in reference to that, not the genre/category of AVP, which is right there in black and white, First-Person Shooter.

molasar molasar :

 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
No, you are.

We can go forever like this but you are going to lose in the end with your nonsense.

What features? You keep using that word but you never explain.

I explained how DOOM is better graphically and what features it has that AVP lacks. You never did the same.

Here's another feature AVP lacks. DYNAMIC LIGHTING. Where are the flickering lights? Don't tell me that a game such as AVP, which has horror elements, wouldn't benefit by the use of dynamic lighting!

Why Doom is not one open world environment? Why Doom is in lower res? Why Doom's monsters suck in comparison? Is even one there that looks so good like Predator (btw. even pred from AvP'99 and AvP2 looks less realistic)?
Lol. What dynamic lightning do you need in AvP? Like flickering environment from invisible to visible? Or you just want to compare Alien Trilogy (PS1 version) here with your beloved Doom?

Same with AVP.

Lol. Fans of Alien and Predator films were getting it for this fact alone. Not to mention no other Alien or Predator game looked so realistic before. I doubt if they made it in a style of Wolf3D or Doom aesthetically anyone would be impressed.

You really have the attention span of a goldfish. Here's my previous post:

"If we are going to be pedantic, then DOOM isn't an FPS either. It has elements of FPS but it also relies a lot on exploration. Solving the levels themselves is a game in itself, no scratch that, the main objective it to solve the levels. Find the keys and your way out. The monsters are just obstacles. Even without the enemies, you still have a challenge. Heck, you don't even need to kill a single monster to beat most of the levels, see "pacifist" runs."

Do you remember it? It was a long time ago, a few whole hours.

Your projection and cognitive dissonance is epic here, Doom fanatic.

Again where is emphasis put on in each game. There is no doubt that on shooting aspect in Doom but in AvP it is on survival and reaching the main goal.

So it is time for you to get some energy drink to feed your brain and reread the whole discussion again. Starting from one we started a long time ago.

And who wants to play Doom without killing monsters? Lol.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Ok, high-res sprites then. Though, it's kind of uneven since some are lower res than others.

Still, this one thing can't make up for all other graphical regressions this game has compared to Doom (on the same console).

Res level and graphical style is kept similar between all elements. Doom does not even come close to it.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Yeah, I think the discussion with you isn't really fruitful, to be honest, so I'll let others try as I have already explained to you why I don't see it as an open-world game, with your answers only confirming my point of view. There was a point by one user in this thread comparing it to dungeon crawler games and I agree. Also, the post you quoted was about the whole FPS dilemma anyway, so whatever.

I stated that it is an open world game with FPS element in it. You wanted to make it as an FPS only. Not to mention you use double standards here. Accepting those that fits your flawed narrative and rejecting those that do not.
So have you proven it being FPS only? Nope.
Have you proven it not being an open world game? Nope.
Also your dungeon crawlers were categorized as cRPGs.
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,539
1,503
1,610
Still, this one thing can't make up for all other graphical regressions this game has compared to Doom (on the same console).
It's just different, really. There's strengths and minuses in the technology, and there was a lot of experimentation with these "pseudo-3D" engines at the time. Some had simple layout but lots of visual enhancements over the old Wolf tech from the past, some had complex, not-square, not-flat layouts in the wake of Doom. As long as the game designers accounted for what they were working with, they could make fun stuff.

That said, AvP's square walls and the relatively limited resolution of character movement on the floor (they're great big sprites to look at, but they are pretty limited in how well they can move about the stage because of how small the blocks that the projected environments allow) are hard to go back to when new tech redefined what people expected of an FP...Game, even for games of this time. (Bungie's Marathon released on Macs that same year, as did Looking Glass' System Shock, both on admittedly much more powerful hardware.)

The bottom line is that Doom engine is not created to handle such settings like are in AvP.

Not the color depth or sprite resolution, no. It would have been a worse-looking game. Would have had a better framerate, but...

As far as handling the game design and scripting, though, I feel a Doom engine could have handled what I know of the AvP concept? What does the game do that's too complex? There's large stages (although broken up by loading gates to swap in maps,) the Aliens can bleed acid which remains on the floor (so the gibs would need to have -hitpoints attached and would have to have permanence,) the Aliens can cocoon soldiers to make spawn points (not sure Doom has a script for that but mostly because it'd never been part of the equasion,) Alien Eggs spawn Facehuggers (not sure if Doom does spirtes that spawn sprites?) Predators have some cool vision settings that make the screen weird (hard to do in Doom, plus it doesn't have the colors for it) and make your character invisible (more doable) with special Honor points (again, doable,) and the Marine has a motion tracker (complicated) and some ammo weight limits (just numbers and stat caps), plus there's some randomization to enemy spawn points that Doom interestingly doesn't have a method for.

It'd be a lot of work, getting an AvP game to squeeze into a Doom engine, for sure, and it'd be much worse for the transition. Still, looking at AvP on Jag, you do wonder if Rebellion would have gone with this non-orthogonal engine if they had a choice, and for sure if there had been a sequel (not counting Rebellion's 1999 AvP on PC, which is pretty different but already uses a "Quake-Clone" engine,) the technology would have been different. They made an impressive game for a console that desperately needed a signature title, so whatever the engine could or should have been, this worked at the time.

There have been a number of AvP Doom WADs attempted. I'm not sure what if anything came anywhere near the play, much less the look, of AvP Jag. (I'll assume , in your esteem, the answer is "none".) This guy in 2015 seemed to have some of it down, and was working out clever ways of adapting the unusual Jag solutions to Doom's scripting and level design approach. He was using GZDoom, which allows much deeper color depth, and he was able to get a rip of the textures and I think level layouts; there has not yet been a way to rip Jag sprites, so substitutions had to be made. It never got finished, in any case.

 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
The overall game does not fully satisfy the conventional definition of "open world", though. Although you have three characters with different play styles, each one of them still has a singular goal throughout the game. There are no side missions, and all of the NPCs are distinct enemies with rigid behavior patterns. It's actually structured more like a Metroidvania (another modern gaming term). It has about the same amount of freedom as a game like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think both the third and fourth poll options would apply here.

Have you played the game? What is a sensu stricto defnition of open world game?

What scale of world game should have to be considered an open world game? Does it have to have side missions? What is a structure of Metroidvania and how is it present in the game? No, there is more freedom in AvP than in C:SotN. You should try to play the game yourself.
 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
We can go forever like this but you are going to lose in the end with your nonsense.
Nope. You lost already.

Why Doom is not one open world environment? Why Doom is in lower res? Why Doom's monsters suck in comparison? Is even one there that looks so good like Predator (btw. even pred from AvP'99 and AvP2 looks less realistic)?
Lol. What dynamic lightning do you need in AvP? Like flickering environment from invisible to visible? Or you just want to compare Alien Trilogy (PS1 version) here with your beloved Doom?
Being "open world" isn't a graphical feature. Also, AVP is not exactly open world, like everyone in this thread tells you.

What dynamic lightning do you need in AvP? Like flickering environment from invisible to visible?
Lighting has been one of the most important graphical features in games with horror-ish atmosphere since DOOM of course. AVP missed the memo.

Res level and graphical style is kept similar between all elements. Doom does not even come close to it.
Similar between all elements:

Element 1:




Element 2:



Yeah, they look similar, lol.

And why does AvP still look better?
Have your eyes checked mate.
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2018
1,411
1,532
420
You wanted to make it as an FPS only.
Saying it is an FPS game doesn't mean it "just an FPS game". I've never denied it having other elements such as horror survival. It is you that gets mad for calling AvsP an FPS, despite literally every source calling it an FPS. That's a "you"-problem, not a "me"-problem.
Have you proven it not being an open world game? Nope.
Again, I have already explained to you why I don't think it is an open-world game. Several users did in fact.
...and looking at the current results of the poll it seems like most people do agree, that it is not an open-world game.
You may have a different interpretation of what an open-world game is supposed to be like, but I don't agree, and I don't think you have proven why it's supposed to be an open-world game. According to your logic, a plethora of games would qualify as open-world. I don't think an open design philosophy automatically makes a game open-world.

...but anyway, I will watch a movie now, so cheers.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
I just made a list of features that proves DOOM is far more advanced, graphically. Plus, the Dynamic lighting which i forgot.

You did nothing. Not a single word. No arguments.


Lol, i don't know what else to tell you. You are in complete denial.

Also, lol "cinematic".

It's too funny.

Again. What each game was trying to achieve? And did they succeed in it?

Why Doom has cartoon like pixelated graphics? Why its environmental structure dose not make sense as it is portrayed in its plot? Do you want to compare Doom 2 to Alien Trilogy or soemthing?

Yes, cinematic. Building elements were digitized. In case of monsters they were figurines. In case of people, real people. The same with wall textures. Everything to create a cinematic look. Why Doom does not have it? Why Doom is less immersive? Less scary?

It's too funny playing with you on these aspects?
 

Havoc2049

Member
Mar 30, 2011
2,371
1,736
920
Arizona
Yep, molasar is fucked. According to the game manual, the contents of the simulation are considered Top Secret. Molasar has given a detailed description of the simulation here in this thread and is in violation of USMCMC, 53622a, which is punishable by court-martial and up seven years imprisonment in the Yuggoth penal colony, SYS Aldeberan IV. :messenger_winking_tongue:
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,539
1,503
1,610
Why is it anti climatic? And why does AvP still look better?

I don't know why active lighting is anti-climactic to you, but AvP still does "look better" to you in part because it's big 16-bit-color square blocks of walls to paint on, whereas Doom uses much smaller and 8-bit color blocks. The tradeoff is that Doom has much finer and non-square / not-right-angle walls to lay out, which allows much more complex stage layouts, but it still ultimately requires these small repeating textures to make up the environments. By the time a Jag AvP wall has drawn out a surface, it has painted a complete and natural picture across its surface, but it can only be that square block of wall (which eventually repeats a whole lot itself as well.) Doom on the other hand can have columns and stairs and open roofs and lava and lit surfaces and alcoves up above where demons hurl fireballs down on you and all that, but everything is made up of little pieces of low-resolution texturing that look videogamey.





BTW your upper photo is not from Jag's AvP but an unfinished fan project. It looks too sterile and not like the original on CRT TV sets.

You're right, I should have noticed it was 16:9, among other things. The graphic is replaced, as best I can... I can't really help you with showing what this game looked like on a CRT 25 years ago, but it's the right game now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Agent X

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Here is something that will blow your mind, AVP takes place within a simulator. So the simulation part of that sentence is in reference to that, not the genre/category of AVP, which is right there in black and white, First-Person Shooter. That page is from the Atari Jaguar's Official Gamer's Guide, published in 1995. So even in the 90's, everyone and their dog firmly believed AVP belonged in the FPS genre.

Your friend is right and you are wrong. Just take the L and go play an open world game like Elite Dangerous or Sea of Thieves.

Nope. Nothing will blow my mind. Back then we did not have games categorized like nowadays. The 90s the best experimental decade with huge jumps. That is why the game was put into FPS basket where clearly it was not a Wolf3D or Doom clone.
Also do you need to read the game's manual again from 1994?



Therefore you failed to debunk me.
 

Havoc2049

Member
Mar 30, 2011
2,371
1,736
920
Arizona
Nope. Nothing will blow my mind. Back then we did not have games categorized like nowadays. The 90s the best experimental decade with huge jumps. That is why the game was put into FPS basket where clearly it was not a Wolf3D or Doom clone.
Also do you need to read the game's manual again from 1994?



Therefore you failed to debunk me.
Like I said, the game takes place in a simulator. Thanks for backing me up.
 

Agent X

Member
Jun 7, 2004
7,977
1,112
1,720
New Jersey
Have you played the game? What is a sensu stricto defnition of open world game?

What scale of world game should have to be considered an open world game? Does it have to have side missions? What is a structure of Metroidvania and how is it present in the game? No, there is more freedom in AvP than in C:SotN. You should try to play the game yourself.

Yes, I have played AvP. I got the game the day it was released, back in October 1994.

My point was that there are games that are "open" (relatively speaking), and allow the player to roam and explore the environment freely. Such games have existed long before GTA, and long before AvP.

Again, GTA3 was not the first open world game, but was almost assuredly the game that put the term "open world" in the public vernacular, and set expectations going forward. Wolfenstein 3D was not the first first-person shooter, either, but it was a game that set the standard for the genre.

Scale is important. If we simplify the definitions of these terms, then they become diluted. Once the range becomes too broad, the term loses all meaning.

The old Atari arcade games Battlezone and Red Baron are technically first-person shooters, and (using a very loose definition) also open world games. But, I don't think most gamers would consider them "open world" in comparison to other genre-defining games.

If you enjoy the game (just as I also do), then fine. If you want to consider it "open world" by your own personal definition, then that's fine, too. But, you need to understand why other gamers here aren't viewing things exactly the same way. Don't allow their viewpoints to diminish your enjoyment of the game, but at the same time respect their perspective as well.
 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
It's just different, really. There's strengths and minuses in the technology, and there was a lot of experimentation with these "pseudo-3D" engines at the time.
The problem with AVP is really the orthogonal level design. If DOOM didn't exist before it, AVP would be considered a great looking game.

But after playing DOOM, i could not go back to the same level design as Wolf3D at a lower frame rate even.

It does a few nice things visually but i don't believe it pushes the console as much as Jaguar Doom does. Why does it have such horrible frame rate when the game engine/level design is so basic?

Or is it that Carmack is such a code genius that Rebelion could not compete?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CamHostage

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Not the color depth or sprite resolution, no. It would have been a worse-looking game. Would have had a better framerate, but...

As far as handling the game design and scripting, though, I feel a Doom engine could have handled what I know of the AvP concept? What does the game do that's too complex? There's large stages (although broken up by loading gates to swap in maps,) the Aliens can bleed acid which remains on the floor (so the gibs would need to have -hitpoints attached and would have to have permanence,) the Aliens can cocoon soldiers to make spawn points (not sure Doom has a script for that but mostly because it'd never been part of the equasion,) Alien Eggs spawn Facehuggers (not sure if Doom does spirtes that spawn sprites?) Predators have some cool vision settings that make the screen weird (hard to do in Doom, plus it doesn't have the colors for it) and make your character invisible (more doable) with special Honor points (again, doable,) and the Marine has a motion tracker (complicated) and some ammo weight limits (just numbers and stat caps), plus there's some randomization to enemy spawn points that Doom interestingly doesn't have a method for.

Exactly this is what I mean. Doom and AvP are two different games trying to achieve different things.

It'd be a lot of work, getting an AvP game to squeeze into a Doom engine, for sure, and it'd be much worse for the transition. Still, looking at AvP on Jag, you do wonder if Rebellion would have gone with this non-orthogonal engine if they had a choice, and for sure if there had been a sequel (not counting Rebellion's 1999 AvP on PC, which is pretty different but already uses a "Quake-Clone" engine,) the technology would have been different. They made an impressive game for a console that desperately needed a signature title, so whatever the engine could or should have been, this worked at the time.

AvP'99 is using in house build engine, nothing based on Quake-clone engine.

There have been a number of AvP Doom WADs attempted. I'm not sure what if anything came anywhere near the play, much less the look, of AvP Jag. (I'll assume , in your esteem, the answer is "none".) This guy in 2015 seemed to have some of it down, and was working out clever ways of adapting the unusual Jag solutions to Doom's scripting and level design approach. He was using GZDoom, which allows much deeper color depth, and he was able to get a rip of the textures and I think level layouts; there has not yet been a way to rip Jag sprites, so substitutions had to be made. It never got finished, in any case.

I am aware of those. BTW Jane Whittaker who was a coder on Jag's AvP wants to create its spiritual successor. https://twitter.com/WhittakerGames
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Nope. You lost already.

Nope. I won. But I will prepare for you a participation trophy from potato.

Being "open world" isn't a graphical feature. Also, AVP is not exactly open world, like everyone in this thread tells you.

Again two games were trying to achieve two different things. Thus two different engines. Also AvP is an open world. And everyone here failed to debunk it so far. They cannot even define it sensu stricto.

Lighting has been one of the most important graphical features in games with horror-ish atmosphere since DOOM of course. AVP missed the memo.

Lol. I do not remember being scared by lightning in Doom 1 + 2. But I liked atmosphere in N64's Doom. Again why Jag's AvP has a better atmosphere than Doom?

Similar between all elements:

Element 1:




Element 2:



Yeah, they look similar, lol.

Yep similar. What you see in a screen is not an animated model of facehugger. And it is the only object which is put in your face in the game. A good choice and the effect is great and matches up a transparency adjustable HUD which can be turned off completely.

Have your eyes checked mate.

Yep, it looks better than Doom. I was surprised that no one did a sequel on PS1 based on its core. Yes, I know they tried.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Oct 26, 2018
19,024
26,579
820
People definitions of open world and linear will mean different things.

Pretty sure every gamer will consider a game like Contra linear and Skyrim open world.

But let's say there's a game like an old school PC RPG with giant grid based levels. There is only one exit to get to the next level, but how you find the exit can be quick (if you pick the right direction and get lucky bee-lining to the exit), or take forever if explore the filler parts of the level first. The whole dungeon level is open.
 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Saying it is an FPS game doesn't mean it "just an FPS game". I've never denied it having other elements such as horror survival. It is you that gets mad for calling AvsP an FPS, despite literally every source calling it an FPS. That's a "you"-problem, not a "me"-problem.

Back in the day you had Wolf3D, Doom and their clones. There was no doubt that they were all about shooting enemies from first person perspective in maze like environment. And an animated weapon visible in a bottom-middle section of screen. Not to mention some banal story.
Again. Either we are going to be honest about what those games really were and are or we can make this nonsense based on not precised sources.
So no amount of temper tantrums will make Jag's AvP an FPS.
Again, I have already explained to you why I don't think it is an open-world game. Several users did in fact.
...and looking at the current results of the poll it seems like most people do agree, that it is not an open-world game.
You may have a different interpretation of what an open-world game is supposed to be like, but I don't agree, and I don't think you have proven why it's supposed to be an open-world game. According to your logic, a plethora of games would qualify as open-world. I don't think an open design philosophy automatically makes a game open-world.

...but anyway, I will watch a movie now, so cheers.

It is not about interpretation and democratic vote has nothing to do with it. An open world sensu stricto means that generally you have logical access to the whole environment. And this how it works in the game. And I already stated that Jag's AvP mixes many elements but back in the day we did not have established categories like we have nowadays.
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,539
1,503
1,610
AvP Jag also used digitized graphics, scanning real objects and people to make up the sprites and textures of the game. Most Doom engine games opted for hand-drawn pixel art, as there was less resolution/color to make much use of a photo but also they had great designers back then who could control the visuals real well and knew how to make visuals look good even if they had to be scaled. AvP's sprites look good at their best resolution, but they animate in the game poorly (digitizing wasn't so easy back then, so even though hand-drawn art took time, it was probably easier to experiment with) and they look like abstract blocks when too close because the artists couldn't refine the models for scale. (Doom of course got blocky too, but you instantly knew a Zombieman from a Cacodemon at any distance.)

I don't know if there were many digitized characters (or ACM character models) in pseudo-3D engine games back then? It seems like that would have been common, since the characters are basically popsicle-puppets anyway so photos and CG would eventually be easier than paintings, but the only one I can come up with that used digitized real art was Killing Time. (That also used "FMV Sprites", which was a kind of cool technique where instead of the bitmapped sprite, the figures were made of FMV with transparencies, so you could walk around the video as it played, and it only had one angle of course so you couldn't go around the video but you could 'zoom' in and out and walk around a bit as it played. Actual enemy graphics and even projectiles look to be rotoscoped from photos or video.)


(Is Killing Time an "open-world" game, BTW? It seems like they have stitched together the maps to seamlessly load together like AvP's stages. I have no idea what the map layout and re-accessibility of this game was, though.)
(*Please don't let Killing Time talk go too far off topic, BTW. Let's start a Killing Time thread if discussion gets too heated...)
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Oct 26, 2018
19,024
26,579
820
AvP Jag also used digitized graphics, scanning real objects and people to make up the sprites and textures of the game. Most Doom engine games opted for hand-drawn pixel art, as there was less resolution/color to make much use of a photo but also they had great designers back then who could control the visuals real well and knew how to make visuals look good even if they had to be scaled. AvP's sprites look good at their best resolution, but they animate in the game poorly (digitizing wasn't so easy back then, so even though hand-drawn art took time, it was probably easier to experiment with) and they look like abstract blocks when too close because the artists couldn't refine the models for scale. (Doom of course got blocky too, but you instantly knew a Zombieman from a Cacodemon at any distance.)

I don't know if there were many digitized characters (or ACM character models) in pseudo-3D engine games back then? It seems like that would have been common, since the characters are basically popsicle-puppets anyway so photos and CG would eventually be easier than paintings, but the only one I can come up with that used digitized real art was Killing Time. (That also used "FMV Sprites", which was a kind of cool technique where instead of the bitmapped sprite, the figures were made of FMV with transparencies, so you could walk around the video as it played, and it only had one angle of course so you couldn't go around the video but you could 'zoom' in and out and walk around as it played.)

The frame rate must be 3 fps during the shotgun fights. lol
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Yep, molasar is fucked. According to the game manual, the contents of the simulation are considered Top Secret. Molasar has given a detailed description of the simulation here in this thread and is in violation of USMCMC, 53622a, which is punishable by court-martial and up seven years imprisonment in the Yuggoth penal colony, SYS Aldeberan IV. :messenger_winking_tongue:

Yep, you are and you try to project it on me. Lol. Again. Some VG magazines were describing this game as interactive movie mixed with FPS elements before it was released. I wonder why? Should not it be advertised like an upcoming Wolf3D or Doom killer?
 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
Again why Jag's AvP has a better atmosphere than Doom?
Not a fact. Just your opinion. I like DOOM's "hell/scifi" mix atmosphere more.

AvP Jag also used digitized graphics, scanning real objects and people to make up the sprites and textures of the game. Most Doom engine games opted for hand-drawn pixel art, as there was less resolution/color to make much use of a photo but also they had great designers back then who could control the visuals real well and knew how to make visuals look good even if they had to be scaled. AvP's sprites look good at their best resolution, but they animate in the game poorly (digitizing wasn't so easy back then, so even though hand-drawn art took time, it was probably easier to experiment with) and they look like abstract blocks when too close because the artists couldn't refine the models for scale. (Doom of course got blocky too, but you instantly knew a Zombieman from a Cacodemon at any distance.)

I don't know if there were many digitized characters (or ACM character models) in pseudo-3D engine games back then? It seems like that would have been common, since the characters are basically popsicle-puppets anyway so photos and CG would eventually be easier than paintings, but the only one I can come up with that used digitized real art was Killing Time. (That also used "FMV Sprites", which was a kind of cool technique where instead of the bitmapped sprite, the figures were made of FMV with transparencies, so you could walk around the video as it played, and it only had one angle of course so you couldn't go around the video but you could 'zoom' in and out and walk around as it played.)

Most DOOM's sprites and textures were also digitized. At least half of the monsters were digitized from clay models. Textures were digitized from real photographs most of the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CamHostage
Dec 12, 2018
1,411
1,532
420
Back in the day you had Wolf3D, Doom and their clones. There was no doubt that they were all about shooting enemies from first person perspective in maze like environment. And an animated weapon visible in a bottom-middle section of screen. Not to mention some banal story.
Again. Either we are going to be honest about what those games really were and are or we can make this nonsense based on not precised sources.
So no amount of temper tantrums will make Jag's AvP an FPS.


It is not about interpretation and democratic vote has nothing to do with it. An open world sensu stricto means that generally you have logical access to the whole environment. And this how it works in the game. And I already stated that Jag's AvP mixes many elements but back in the day we did not have established categories like we have nowadays.
 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
I don't know why active lighting is anti-climactic to you, but AvP still does "look better" to you in part because it's big 16-bit-color square blocks of walls to paint on, whereas Doom uses much smaller and 8-bit color blocks. The tradeoff is that Doom has much finer and non-square / not-right-angle walls to lay out, which allows much more complex stage layouts, but it still ultimately requires these small repeating textures to make up the environments. By the time a Jag AvP wall has drawn out a surface, it has painted a complete and natural picture across its surface, but it can only be that square block of wall (which eventually repeats a whole lot itself as well.) Doom on the other hand can have columns and stairs and open roofs and lava and lit surfaces and alcoves up above where demons hurl fireballs down on you and all that, but everything is made up of little pieces of low-resolution texturing that look videogamey.




It is not about more is better but about balance between all elements. These are two different games one is FPS and another one is a mixed bag (but it works). There is a reason why Jag's AvP is called one of the scariest games of all time. Even without flickering light effects.

BTW your upper photo is not from Jag's AvP but an unfinished fan project. It looks too sterile and not like the original on CRT TV sets.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Lol, they just did a few posts ago. They literally explained to you that line in the manual.

I linked a real manual in my previous posts. Also back then there was no distinction between the games like it is nowadays. For example do you want to explain why Resident Evil '96 is not called TPS?
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,539
1,503
1,610
Most DOOM's sprites and textures were also digitized. At least half of the monsters were digitized from clay models. Textures were digitized from real photographs most of the time.

Hmm, I know I had seen pictures of like the "Real Doom Demons" clay models that they built for the project, but I always thought those were just used for reference photos, not actually scanned in. Looks like I'm wrong.


They still completely painted over the model scans once bringing them in, though, rather than just taking the digital photo snaps and using the computer to drop the color depth to 8-bit color, and it sounds like they still animated them a bit digitally rather than having sculpts for every unique animation frame. (The article indicates Doom 1 was done with hard clay figures, Doom 2 used more model motion because they used more complicated "claymation" figures with wire joints to make them re-poseable.)

Whereas AvP for sure had some touch-ups done, but I'm guessing they pretty much used the photos as photos.
 
Last edited:

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
These are two different games one is FPS and another one is a mixed bag
Already debunked.

There is a reason why Jag's AvP is called one of the scariest games of all time.
First time i ever hear about this. But i do agree. Having to navigate these boxy rooms at 10fps is really a scary proposition.

I linked a real manual in my previous posts.
And the manual refers to the game's plot not genre.

The "tactical simulation" is part of the plot.

Literally, the manual explains the plot to you at this section. Not the game genre.


How hard it is to comprehend?
 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Yes, I have played AvP. I got the game the day it was released, back in October 1994.

My point was that there are games that are "open" (relatively speaking), and allow the player to roam and explore the environment freely. Such games have existed long before GTA, and long before AvP.

Again, GTA3 was not the first open world game, but was almost assuredly the game that put the term "open world" in the public vernacular, and set expectations going forward. Wolfenstein 3D was not the first first-person shooter, either, but it was a game that set the standard for the genre.

Scale is important. If we simplify the definitions of these terms, then they become diluted. Once the range becomes too broad, the term loses all meaning.

The old Atari arcade games Battlezone and Red Baron are technically first-person shooters, and (using a very loose definition) also open world games. But, I don't think most gamers would consider them "open world" in comparison to other genre-defining games.

If you enjoy the game (just as I also do), then fine. If you want to consider it "open world" by your own personal definition, then that's fine, too. But, you need to understand why other gamers here aren't viewing things exactly the same way. Don't allow their viewpoints to diminish your enjoyment of the game, but at the same time respect their perspective as well.

Nothing new under the Sun. I play vgs since early 80s.

With so called FPS it was about a visible gun in the bottom-middle screen. Not just a crosshair or lightgun games. This is when it started matter.

I do not have any personal definition for open world games. Sensu stricto it is clear that some kind of broad and specific world has to be presented and you can move in it freely. And it is clear that Jag's AvP has this type of world.
Battlezone and Red Baron are not open world games. The world is not defined in them besides moving in pseudo 3D space.

The whole discussion is about defining games correctly even if the most gamers are wrong about them. Without such discussions there is a mess and double standards.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
The problem with AVP is really the orthogonal level design. If DOOM didn't exist before it, AVP would be considered a great looking game.

But after playing DOOM, i could not go back to the same level design as Wolf3D at a lower frame rate even.

It does a few nice things visually but i don't believe it pushes the console as much as Jaguar Doom does. Why does it have such horrible frame rate when the game engine/level design is so basic?

Or is it that Carmack is such a code genius that Rebelion could not compete?

There is no problem with AvP design at all. And it is considered better looking game than Doom. That is why it was a system seller but Doom was not for Jag. Even if the both released in approximately in the same time.
And why do you compare AvP to FPS games again.

Explain me why PC and Jag's Doom is so boring?

Why Carmack could not create something that can handle better looking game than AvP? Was not he experienced enough?

Let's find out.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Oct 26, 2018
19,024
26,579
820
There is no problem with AvP design at all. And it is considered better looking game than Doom. That is why it was a system seller but Doom was not for Jag. Even if the both released in approximately in the same time.
And why do you compare AvP to FPS games again.

Explain me why PC and Jag's Doom is so boring?

Why Carmack could not create something that can handle better looking game than AvP? Was not he experienced enough?

Let's find out.
Reason why Doom did bad on Jaguar is because it was trash. Might had been the worst console version out there. It didn't even have music.

 

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
There is no problem with AvP design at all.
There is. It's boring. Same corridors, same rectangular rooms.

And it is considered better looking game than Doom.
Only by you.

That is why it was a system seller but Doom was not for Jag.
That's because Atari was retarded and didn't push DOOM as the system seller. It was the only/best way to play DOOM for a while, without needing an expensive 486 PC.

Instead, they chose AVP as the one to market. And we all know how well the system sold, lol. That's what happens when you push games with archaic game engines that run at 10fps on "next gen" systems.

Why Carmack could not create something that can handle better looking game than AvP? Was not he experienced enough?
But he did. Carmack created a much better looking and much more advanced game that also runs much smoother.

Reason why Doom did bad on Jaguar is because it was trash. Might had been the worst console version out there. It didn't even have music.
Eh, worse DOOM ports are 3DO, Saturn and SNES. Jaguar Doom runs smoothly. I do agree about the lack of music though, that hurts it a lot.
 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
AvP Jag also used digitized graphics, scanning real objects and people to make up the sprites and textures of the game. Most Doom engine games opted for hand-drawn pixel art, as there was less resolution/color to make much use of a photo but also they had great designers back then who could control the visuals real well and knew how to make visuals look good even if they had to be scaled. AvP's sprites look good at their best resolution, but they animate in the game poorly (digitizing wasn't so easy back then, so even though hand-drawn art took time, it was probably easier to experiment with) and they look like abstract blocks when too close because the artists couldn't refine the models for scale. (Doom of course got blocky too, but you instantly knew a Zombieman from a Cacodemon at any distance.)

Have you seen AvP on CRT TV set? There is nothing bad about resolution of characters or their animation. All of them are distinguishable and detailed for their time. Not to mention life like. Pred has animation for each weapon when it attacks you, the same with Alien or Queen. Marines only use flamethrowers and pulse rifles against you. Doom 1 or 2 has nothing on it.
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Not a fact. Just your opinion. I like DOOM's "hell/scifi" mix atmosphere more.

You are a Doom fanatic. That is why.


Most DOOM's sprites and textures were also digitized. At least half of the monsters were digitized from clay models. Textures were digitized from real photographs most of the time.

Why those Doom's sprites and textures look worse than those in AvP then?
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Oct 26, 2018
19,024
26,579
820
I had to watch some AVP videos as people in this thread are comparing graphics.

AVP
- Bad frame rate
- Same looking square-ish metal corridors or brown alien walls
- Cool infrared green vision thing
- Grittier looking colour palette
- Digitized looking characters
- The HUD is more sleek and built into the game screen

Doom
- Better frame rate (unless you played on a weak console)
- More variety of colours in walls, fire/lava etc...
- More of a cartoony bright colour palette
- Variation in elevation/steps/angles, windowed walls etc...
- HUD reminds of games made in Europe at the time. Big numbers walling off an inch of the screen. Ocean games did this a lot back then

To me, if you like the early days of shooters with digitized graphics, you'll be more likely to pick AVP. If you like smoother scrolling games with more variation you'll pick Doom even if the colours and monsters are more cartoony.
 
Last edited:

TheMay30thMan

Member
Aug 23, 2018
791
1,227
470
molasar molasar , you ignored my question earlier, and i would like to pose it again because I’m genuinely curious. There is no ill-will behind my asking this and I can see how it may have been confusing because I asked your thoughts on “Rebellion‘s“ AVP. What I mean to ask is, do you think Rebellion’s 1999 AvP on PC is a first person shooter?
 
Last edited:

nkarafo

Member
Nov 30, 2012
16,262
7,712
1,070
Doom 1 or 2 has nothing on it.
Wrong again.

DOOM (and especially DOOM 2) has many more different monsters to animate. And they all have different angles, like how you can see monsters from behind or their sides. The sprite sheet must be 10 times bigger than AVPs

You are a Doom fanatic. That is why.

Oh no! kah Weng Chok with 643 subscribers put AVP in his "scary games" list!

AVP is officially "one of the scariest games ever" confirmed!

Why those Doom's sprites and textures look worse than those in AvP then?
Because they are lower-res and lower-bit color? I mean, we already established that. AVP does this one thing better than DOOM. It's mentioned like 50.000 times already :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Where is an issue with framerate and controls? Lol.
The game literally runs at 10 to 15 fps, lol. You don't see a problem with that?
 
Last edited:

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Already debunked.
Nope. Nothing what I stated has been debunked.
First time i ever hear about this. But i do agree. Having to navigate these boxy rooms at 10fps is really a scary proposition.
Again

And the manual refers to the game's plot not genre.

The "tactical simulation" is part of the plot.

Literally, the manual explains the plot to you at this section. Not the game genre.


How hard it is to comprehend?

Lol. Why was not it advertised as a Doom or Wolf killer if it is a dedicated FPS game? Why Doom was not a system seller for Jag?

Gee. Even an advert does not say that it is FPS. Why! WHyyyyyy!
 

molasar

Member
Jun 20, 2018
2,237
2,176
425
Reason why Doom did bad on Jaguar is because it was trash. Might had been the worst console version out there. It didn't even have music.


Nope. Actually it was the best version on consoles back then but it was a yesterday paper in comparison to tomorrow news, i.e., AvP.