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[Chupanibre]

This discussion came up with a few friends of mine recently. Well... less of a discussion and more of them saying WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Why do I invert y-axis?

I never really thought about it. I've been doing it since at least 1990 on pc flight simulators so I was surprised it was such an issue. Everyone I knew online growing up played everything with inverted y. It was the standard everyone followed but a few outliers. It was natural to pull back to go up and push forward to go down. I mean, you pull your head back to look up, right?

I'm at least 12 years older than this particular group of friends and they didn't grow up playing fight sims like I did, so I've got a feeling it's become a generational thing. All the kids seem to play like fps games are point and click instead of what I always saw as the natural way.

So what's the deal?

Do you invert y?

 

[Sorne]

No.

 

[Umbral]

I can’t play any other way.

 

[cormack12]

I think you mean

Invert. Why?

 

[jaysius]

Someone I knew inverted Y, they said it was like "pulling your head back"

Don't be a bad person. Don't invert Y.

Really it doesn't make any difference, I get a kick out of it when the invert Y crowd get high and mighty and try to say theres some mystical advantage to it.

The thing is if you need to invert Y, there's a good chance that some random indie title might not have that option.

Every time Y gets Inverted an angel looses it's wings.

 

[iconmaster]

Worth a read

When up means down: why do so many video game players invert their controls?

This is a genuinely fraught topic: is it generational, habitual, or explained by neuroscience? I asked the experts

www.theguardian.com

But habitual use is not the only possibility. Inverting or not inverting may also involve differences in spatial perception and the interpretation of information on a screen. One theory involves how the player perceives their relationship with the character or vehicle they are controlling.

“From a cognitive perspective, players who don’t invert are ‘acting as’ the avatar, with movement/steering originating from between the avatar’s eyes, controlling the camera,” says Dr Jennifer Corbett, a lecturer in psychology at Brunel University London’s Centre for Cognitive Neuroscience. “Players who invert are ‘acting on’ the avatar, with the controls either behind or on top of the head controlling the avatar.”

For me, this is the money quote:

‘“The only published study on this I came across – Frischmann, et al, 2015 – found just the opposite, with Y axis inverters reporting higher levels of both presence and immersion.” This might be why it’s the axis inverters who are the most passionate and defensive when this issue comes up on Twitter. Also, many inverters feel that inverting the Y-axis actually brings us closer to human movement because we tilt our heads backwards to look up and forwards to look down.’

 

[Jigsaah]

This discussion came up with a few friends of mine recently. Well... less of a discussion and more of them saying WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Why do I invert y-axis?

I never really thought about it. I've been doing it since at least 1990 on pc flight simulators so I was surprised it was such an issue. Everyone I knew online growing up played everything with inverted y. It was the standard everyone followed but a few outliers. It was natural to pull back to go up and push forward to go down. I mean, you pull your head back to look up, right?

I'm at least 12 years older than this particular group of friends and they didn't grow up playing fight sims like I did, so I've got a feeling it's become a generational thing. All the kids seem to play like fps games are point and click instead of what I always saw as the natural way.

So what's the deal?

Do you invert y?

My brain is backwards so yes I invert Y, except for M&KB. I'm also left-handed, if that means anything.

 

[Patrick S.]

For the first 10-15 years of me playing on mouse and keyboard, I always inverted Y, and was completely unable to play the "normal" way. Then I remember I played a game where you had to have super fine control and had to do lots of diagonal movements, and my brain had a lot of trouble coordinating my hand movement with what was happening on screen and I started playing without inverted Y and never look back. I can still play both ways, though.

 

[haveagood1]

Only heathens push up on a stick and look up.........

 

[Beer Baelly]

Always

 

[Shakka43]

Can't play otherwise.

 

[brian0057]

I used to invert both X and Y for every single game.
Now I only invert Y for flight sims.

 

[Codes 208]

Gross, hell no. That shit took forever to get used to back in the n64 days when it was default

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

I mean, you pull your head back to look up, right?

By this logic you should also invert X, because you "pull" the back of your head left to look right. No. It doesn't make sense. It makes sense when simulating flying (because you pull back on the stick to pull up) and I switch automatically on the fly (flying without inverted Y just feels wrong) but it does not make even a little sense for standard camera controls or in FPS.

 

[Chupanibre]

I just thought the hostility was comical. I've been inverting for almost 30 years so I don't think I can undo that

 

[MastAndo]

Inverted, always. I wouldn't be able to play without the option, I'm in too deep now.

 

[Chupanibre]

By this logic you should also invert X, because you "pull" the back of your head left to look right. No. It doesn't make sense. It makes sense when simulating flying (because you pull back on the stick to pull up) and I switch automatically on the fly (flying without inverted Y just feels wrong) but it does not make even a little sense for standard camera controls or in FPS.

Flight controls. Left and right are still left and right.

I practically lived in a constant online dogfight for the better part of 10 years.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Been inverted since I came out of the womb. I think the poll should have a second question, asking what the age range of the voters are. I do not mean that as an insult at all, just curious to know if this is a generational thing, as I don't know anyone my age who didn't use inverted-y controls. We all played on the same controllers and computers, and never once had to change the setup.

 

[Umbral]

Worth a read

When up means down: why do so many video game players invert their controls?

This is a genuinely fraught topic: is it generational, habitual, or explained by neuroscience? I asked the experts

www.theguardian.com

For me, this is the money quote:

‘“The only published study on this I came across – Frischmann, et al, 2015 – found just the opposite, with Y axis inverters reporting higher levels of both presence and immersion.” This might be why it’s the axis inverters who are the most passionate and defensive when this issue comes up on Twitter. Also, many inverters feel that inverting the Y-axis actually brings us closer to human movement because we tilt our heads backwards to look up and forwards to look down.’

This is what I’ve heard. I didn’t know the study though.

I remember the Splinter Cell HD Collection didn’t have it initially, so I couldn’t play the game. I ended up waiting to buy it until they patched it. Same thing happened with Zone of the Enders. Cannot play the game as there’s no invert option, what makes it worse is that it’s a flight game.

 

[01011001]

I can play both and can get used to the respective other method within half an hour. getting used to meaning that it will feel pretty mich natural at that point.
but even without getting used to it I am usually relatively ok using either, just not perfectly as I would if I actually take the time to get into it again.

currently I usually play not inverted

 

[jaysius]

This is what I’ve heard. I didn’t know the study though.

I remember the Splinter Cell HD Collection didn’t have it initially, so I couldn’t play the game. I ended up waiting to buy it until they patched it. Same thing happened with Zone of the Enders. Cannot play the game as there’s no invert option, what makes it worse is that it’s a flight game.

You know that it's not impossible to learn right? Like I'm left handed but I've learnt for fun to write with my right hand and also use a mouse for gaming with my right hand.

It's not even painful to attempt to learn this, all that is potentially "wasted" is a little bit of your time, and then you can play any game that's ever released without having to worry/post whine about a missing "feature"(I've seen this happen before).

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Flight controls. Left and right are still left and right.

I practically lived in a constant online dogfight for the better part of 10 years.

But that only makes sense because in an aircraft you are controlling how it's leaning, rather than where it's pointing. This can best be seen in a helicopter. When you push forwards on the stick, the helicopter (or plane) leans forwards. When you pull it back it leans back. Left and right cause the helicopter to lean left and right respectively. Your head (or a camera) isn't leaning, it's turning.

 

[Fuz]

I used to on QII.

Dunno why the fuck I did.

 

[Handy Fake]

Always do, both flight stuff and shooters.
Our boy is ten years younger than me and doesn't.
Must be an age thing.

 

[Chupanibre]

But that only makes sense because in an aircraft you are controlling how it's leaning, rather than where it's pointing. This can best be seen in a helicopter. When you push forwards on the stick, the helicopter (or plane) leans forwards. When you pull it back it leans back. Left and right cause the helicopter to lean left and right respectively. Your head (or a camera) isn't leaning, it's turning.

There's also yaw left and right. It is what it is. Can't be undone.

 

[Tesseract]

it doesn't matter, i adapt within a few minutes

usually invert for flights and the occasional shooter

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I can’t play any other way.

This. If a game ships without an option to invert, it's dead to me. No question.

 

[Tiamat2san]

No, I don’t play games to have controls like plane simulator.

 

[Revolutionary]

it doesn't matter, i adapt within a few minutes

This is what drives me crazy when people complain that a game doesn't have inverted option. It literally takes minutes to adjust. Maybe the first time it'll take up to an hour, but once you do it once, it'll come easier the next time. It's really not a big deal, but people are too stubborn to learn.
/rant over

 

[Jeeves]

Yep. Sometimes I invert X too...usually not, but Animal Crossing has inverted X axis so that messed me up for a while when I went back to other games. But it's easier (i.e. possible) for me to swap between X axis inversion compared to Y axis.

 

[jaysius]

This is what drives me crazy when people complain that a game doesn't have inverted option. It literally takes minutes to adjust. Maybe the first time it'll take up to an hour, but once you do it once, it'll come easier the next time. It's really not a big deal, but people are too stubborn to learn.
/rant over

I literally just said this on this page, a few posts up, I said it nicer than that though.

The rigidity and fear of trying simple things amongst gamers is really shocking.

Failure in a video game isn't real failure.

I'm wondering if these rigid NEED INVERT Y OR CAN'T PLAY GAME people are the same that throw and break controllers and get angry at games so much that it enrages them. Now THAT would be an interesting study, anyone doing any pysch work, there's a free thesis for you.

 

[AGRacing]

I'm 40. Can only play with invert Y. It is indeed because I played PC flight and space combat simulators in my teenage years before consoles had analog controls. I regret nothing.

It was all worth it for Descent : Freespace and Tie Fighter.

 

[Chupanibre]

This is what drives me crazy when people complain that a game doesn't have inverted option. It literally takes minutes to adjust. Maybe the first time it'll take up to an hour, but once you do it once, it'll come easier the next time. It's really not a big deal, but people are too stubborn to learn.
/rant over

If there's no option, I can deal with it. Otherwise go straight to options AND INVERT THAT SHIT

 

[Handy Fake]

I'm 40. Can only play with invert Y. It is indeed because I played PC flight and space combat simulators in my teenage years before consoles had analog controls. I regret nothing.

It was all worth it for Descent : Freespace and Tie Fighter.

Amen, fellow old bastard.

 

[royox]

There's a reason why it's called INVERTED and not NORMAL.

 

[Chupanibre]

There's a reason why it's called INVERTED and not NORMAL.

 

[Codeblew]

I only invert the Y-axis for flying.

 

[Cock of War]

"Inverted" always. But in my book it's not inverted, it's normal.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I literally just said this on this page, a few posts up, I said it nicer than that though.

The rigidity and fear of trying simple things amongst gamers is really shocking.

Failure in a video game isn't real failure.

I'm wondering if these rigid NEED INVERT Y OR CAN'T PLAY GAME people are the same that throw and break controllers and get angry at games so much that it enrages them. Now THAT would be an interesting study, anyone doing any pysch work, there's a free thesis for you.

You okay bud? You seem to have perculiar views on people who dont like things.

I've played games since 84, dont like games that have no option to invert and wouldnt dream of breaking things..

You carry on though, you sound like you know things.

 

[The Fartist]

Inverted and goofy foot.

 

[PresetError]

I never understood why would somebody play in anoher way than joystick left for going to the left, right for right, up for up and down for down.

 

[Birdo]

Yes. I see controlling the camera like a plane. Pull back to see up. Push up nose-down.

Gotten used to it over the years, so I can't have it any other way.

 

[Nymphae]

I always invert it. I heard it once described like controlling a TV studio camera, you don't tilt it upwards to look up, you push it down. just makes sense to my brain and hands. That said, I don't find X inversion intuitive but the same would apply to a TV camera I suppose. I don't get people who feel strongly about other's preferences on this topic, whatever works for your brain.

 

[INC]

I used to invert both X and Y for every single game.
Now I only invert Y for flight sims.

My wife still does, because old rpg's that was default settings

 

[Umbral]

You know that it's not impossible to learn right? Like I'm left handed but I've learnt for fun to write with my right hand and also use a mouse for gaming with my right hand.

It's not even painful to attempt to learn this, all that is potentially "wasted" is a little bit of your time, and then you can play any game that's ever released without having to worry/post whine about a missing "feature"(I've seen this happen before).

I’m not whining, I’m relaying my experience with it. I just didn’t buy the game until it supported it. The only game I can’t play so far is Zone of the Enders, which I’m fine with.

I’m not going to spend my time to learn how to use non-inverted. I’ll just not play those games. There’s not enough time in life already and it’s not a worthwhile “skill” to me.

 

[Patrick S.]

Yep. Sometimes I invert X too...usually not, but Animal Crossing has inverted X axis so that messed me up for a while when I went back to other games. But it's easier (i.e. possible) for me to swap between X axis inversion compared to Y axis.

Hoy can you invert X? That's what killed Final Fantasy XII for me, back when it came out on PS2, even though I was super hyped for the game and really loved it. But the controls prevented me from playing :/ I know that the remaster fixed that, need to buy that now!

 

[cireza]

I keep it normal, but I can manage inverted if I really have to.

 

[synchronicity]

Yes I invert. Like many others, I view the stick as an extension of my in-game avatar, and the looking around as an extension of my own head/neck. So I lean/tilt back to look up and vice versa. It doesn't feel natural to do it for x though.

But I can play without it if there is no option. I don't like it though. Everyone should play how it's comfortable though. Down with the axis police!

 

[Traianvs]

I do and I can't play with games without this option, even third person ones like Fall Guys.
I started with the first game I played with mouse and keyboard, Duke Nukem 3d, and I doubt I could change the way I play even if I tried. Now my brain works that way

 

[Jeeves]

Hoy can you invert X? That's what killed Final Fantasy XII for me, back when it came out on PS2, even though I was super hyped for the game and really loved it. But the controls prevented me from playing :/ I know that the remaster fixed that, need to buy that now!

All games should definitely give you the option to adjust both axises. But for some reason X just doesn't bother me that much.