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Insider Matt from Reeee on Sony Bought Exclusivity Deals

Hezekiah

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Jul 16, 2020
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Bloodborne wasn't online multiplayer lol.
Knack 2? Are you serious?
The Last of Us is a remaster of a PS3 game.
Never even heard of Farpoint or Firewall. Street Fighter isn't an online multiplayer game, it's a fighting game. That's a terrible list compared to Microsofts.

So to sum up, there's killzone, which was much worse than 2 or 3s multiplayer, a single arcade racing game, a bare bones sim racing game, and uncharted 4. Xbox leaves that for dead.

Also lol at saying they focus on "better experiences that actually sell". Yeah that Knack 2 was highly lauded for its online multiplayer and sold millions!



Only that first sentence isn't what we've heard. Sea of Thieves was one of the first game pass day and date launches and look at how it has sold since. I'm going to believe Microsoft over random internet person on if Game Pass is a viable project or not. The fact that it's still going and they're focusing on it says it is.
They don't have a choice but to try something different though.

But the fact they refuse to release the numbers is telling.
 

Hezekiah

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Jul 16, 2020
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No it's not.

You're not entitled to numbers, and releasing them means nothing.
Yeah mate, I'm sure it's a booming success 🙃.

They don't release hardware and software numbers because they're getting their asses handed to them. They don't release GamePass financials because it's losing them lots of money.

Even for you this shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.
 

MrFunSocks

Gold Member
Jul 9, 2020
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Yeah mate, I'm sure it's a booming success 🙃.

They don't release hardware and software numbers because they're getting their asses handed to them. They don't release GamePass financials because it's losing them lots of money.

Even for you this shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.
As I’ve said before, game passes only revenue is subscriptions. Of course they don’t make money on that alone.

What game pass does is it brings in money to the division in other ways. Unless you think people are just buying game pass and that’s it, nothing else, it’s almost impossible for anyone outside of MS to see how much money and profit/loss it brings.

As I said before, up until this generation all non Nintendo consoles were sold at a loss. They made their money from games and services and accessories. So do you see how saying those consoles just lost them money is ridiculous? The console brought in money in other areas of the business, even if looking purely at the consoles they lost money.
 

Hezekiah

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Jul 16, 2020
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As I’ve said before, game passes only revenue is subscriptions. Of course they don’t make money on that alone.

What game pass does is it brings in money to the division in other ways. Unless you think people are just buying game pass and that’s it, nothing else, it’s almost impossible for anyone outside of MS to see how much money and profit/loss it brings.

As I said before, up until this generation all non Nintendo consoles were sold at a loss. They made their money from games and services and accessories. So do you see how saying those consoles just lost them money is ridiculous? The console brought in money in other areas of the business, even if looking purely at the consoles they lost money.
They're taking (a lot of) money from the Xbox division to pay third-party developers to include games on GamePass - upfront money, plus further money every time the game is downloaded. You then also take into account lower sales of said games because people just play them through GamePass - look at Gear 5, it barely sold and do you really think that enormous budget was offset by microtransactions.

The amount of mental gymnastics you employ is crazy. It was bad enough with the Halo stuff when you contradicted its developers, but this is ridiculous. Must be nice living on cloud cuckoo land but I'm out.
 
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Well, Street Fighter V was heavily focused towards online matches and features one of the finest multiplayer components in the fighting game genre, even if at launch the servers and netcode were a mess.
Uh...netcode is STILL a mess xD. Online CPT this year has been a bit of a clusterfuck because of it. They never genuinely fixed the netcode and it affects Western players a lot more than, say, Japanese or South Korean players (small geographical footprint + most all players clustered in said area + excellent internet in general = offsets a lot of SFV's BS netcode online (but not all of it)).
 
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Leyasu

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Matt is a VERY known (vetted and proven right many MANY times) insider who posts... elsewhere (hint: uses some kind of an evil duck avatar) and no, I am not obliged to do the HW for you. I am sure you can connect the dots.
I have been reading Matt's one line statements from when he was on here. I honestly cannot remember one time he has been proven to be 100% correct. I mean, how the fuck could he? he never writes anything definitive.
 

Unknown?

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Jan 5, 2016
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They will come to pc definitely it would be stupid not too grow your business but I'm guessing not day 1 releases though and i think that won't change at all this gen because imho Sony absolutely needs to sell consoles and pc gets the games 6+ months later it's a win win everyone's happy .
Sorry but select 1st party games are only coming to PC at the end of the gen.
 

Demon2blades

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Jun 14, 2017
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Sorry but select 1st party games are only coming to PC at the end of the gen.
Makes no difference to me I game mostly on PS4 I couldn't care less if the games came to pc or not but businesses have to be grown and that's a way to do it 6+ months after a games release send it to pc .
 

Klayzer

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Nov 17, 2018
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They're taking (a lot of) money from the Xbox division to pay third-party developers to include games on GamePass - upfront money, plus further money every time the game is downloaded. You then also take into account lower sales of said games because people just play them through GamePass - look at Gear 5, it barely sold and do you really think that enormous budget was offset by microtransactions.

The amount of mental gymnastics you employ is crazy. It was bad enough with the Halo stuff when you contradicted its developers, but this is ridiculous. Must be nice living on cloud cuckoo land but I'm out.
Dude. That was a total headshot retort. Unfortunately, he spawns back in the same place.
 

MrFunSocks

Gold Member
Jul 9, 2020
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They're taking (a lot of) money from the Xbox division to pay third-party developers to include games on GamePass - upfront money, plus further money every time the game is downloaded. You then also take into account lower sales of said games because people just play them through GamePass - look at Gear 5, it barely sold and do you really think that enormous budget was offset by microtransactions.

The amount of mental gymnastics you employ is crazy. It was bad enough with the Halo stuff when you contradicted its developers, but this is ridiculous. Must be nice living on cloud cuckoo land but I'm out.
We’ve been shown time and time again that game pass *helps* sales. We’ve been told this by third party devs, not just MS.

Source to where gears sold terribly? Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters - best launch of any horizon game in sales yet the only horizon to launch on game pass: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/spider-man-forza-horizon-4-set-sales-records-in-th/1100-6462742/

Sea of Thieves launched on game pass and has been a top selling game on steam for months. It even topped the best sellers list - https://www.pcgamesn.com/sea-of-thieves/steam-release

gears 5 topped steam in sales: https://www.windowscentral.com/gears-5-tops-steam-sales-chart

Gears 5 sold less physical copies than 4, which isn’t surprising given the massive shift to digital, especially since its primarily an online shooter. We don’t know the digital sales numbers compared to 4.

Then we’ve got things like this:




Grounded just topped steam sales, another game pass game: https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/29/21346459/grounded-steam-sales-charts-release-game-pass

another third party dev who found being on game pass increased sales: https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/

Then we have things like this:


I think I’ve probably given enough to back up what I said.
 

Unknown?

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Jan 5, 2016
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We’ve been shown time and time again that game pass *helps* sales. We’ve been told this by third party devs, not just MS.

Source to where gears sold terribly? Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters - best launch of any horizon game in sales yet the only horizon to launch on game pass: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/spider-man-forza-horizon-4-set-sales-records-in-th/1100-6462742/

Sea of Thieves launched on game pass and has been a top selling game on steam for months. It even topped the best sellers list - https://www.pcgamesn.com/sea-of-thieves/steam-release

gears 5 topped steam in sales: https://www.windowscentral.com/gears-5-tops-steam-sales-chart

Gears 5 sold less physical copies than 4, which isn’t surprising given the massive shift to digital, especially since its primarily an online shooter. We don’t know the digital sales numbers compared to 4.

Then we’ve got things like this:




Grounded just topped steam sales, another game pass game: https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/29/21346459/grounded-steam-sales-charts-release-game-pass

another third party dev who found being on game pass increased sales: https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/

Then we have things like this:


I think I’ve probably given enough to back up what I said.
So basically Game Pass is a try before you buy trial for a lot of people. If they released a way to try all games before you buy(even if just timed or to a certain %) it would be useless for that subsect of people.
 

JerryinSoCal

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Apr 11, 2020
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We’ve been shown time and time again that game pass *helps* sales. We’ve been told this by third party devs, not just MS.

Source to where gears sold terribly? Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters - best launch of any horizon game in sales yet the only horizon to launch on game pass: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/spider-man-forza-horizon-4-set-sales-records-in-th/1100-6462742/

Sea of Thieves launched on game pass and has been a top selling game on steam for months. It even topped the best sellers list - https://www.pcgamesn.com/sea-of-thieves/steam-release

gears 5 topped steam in sales: https://www.windowscentral.com/gears-5-tops-steam-sales-chart

Gears 5 sold less physical copies than 4, which isn’t surprising given the massive shift to digital, especially since its primarily an online shooter. We don’t know the digital sales numbers compared to 4.

Then we’ve got things like this:




Grounded just topped steam sales, another game pass game: https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/29/21346459/grounded-steam-sales-charts-release-game-pass

another third party dev who found being on game pass increased sales: https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/

Then we have things like this:


I think I’ve probably given enough to back up what I said.
Gears 5 launch month was number 7 on NPD, that's in Xbox's strongest region, in it's second month it didn't make top 20.
 

MrFunSocks

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Jul 9, 2020
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Gears 5 launch month was number 7 on NPD, that's in Xbox's strongest region, in it's second month it didn't make top 20.
Of course there would be people that would have bought it up front that would now play it on game pass though, that's not news.

Like I've been saying, we have literally zero way of knowing how many of those people then go out and buy the game later - I personally did even though I'm still a game pass ultimate subscriber - or how many people having a massive title like Gears 5 being on game pass drew in, and are then spending more money in the ecosystem.

Let's not overlook the fact that microtransactions, "battle pass" type things, and DLC make an absurd amount of money. You don't get those for free with game pass. So people can be playing a game for "free" and then be spending money on microtransaction and dlc that they otherwise wouldn't have bought without game pass being a thing.

Again - game pass itself isn't about making a profit from subscription numbers or first party game sales. Game Pass is about getting people in to the ecosystem cheaply, and once people are in hoping they will spend money - which they are! Think about how online betting sites work - they get people in with free bets and bonus cash, and you can 100% just bet using that money and come out with a tidy little profit, and they made no money off you. That's fine, they don't care, because at the end of the day more people bought into it and are staying because of it. If it didn't work they wouldn't do it, and they've been doing it for years and years and years. You can be assured that MS have people much smarter than you or I with access to much more data than you or I that have determined that it is profitable overall to the company, otherwise they wouldn't be doubling down on it. MS don't just keep throwing money away down the toilet - we know that they will shut down projects that aren't financially viable.

So basically Game Pass is a try before you buy trial for a lot of people. If they released a way to try all games before you buy(even if just timed or to a certain %) it would be useless for that subsect of people.
Absolutely it is. It's a paid trial service for many people, and that's one of the selling points! Try these 100+ games for $10 a month! If you like them, you can buy them with a 10% discount. You say this like it's a bad thing?
 
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Hezekiah

Member
Jul 16, 2020
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We’ve been shown time and time again that game pass *helps* sales. We’ve been told this by third party devs, not just MS.

Source to where gears sold terribly? Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters - best launch of any horizon game in sales yet the only horizon to launch on game pass: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/spider-man-forza-horizon-4-set-sales-records-in-th/1100-6462742/

Sea of Thieves launched on game pass and has been a top selling game on steam for months. It even topped the best sellers list - https://www.pcgamesn.com/sea-of-thieves/steam-release

gears 5 topped steam in sales: https://www.windowscentral.com/gears-5-tops-steam-sales-chart

Gears 5 sold less physical copies than 4, which isn’t surprising given the massive shift to digital, especially since its primarily an online shooter. We don’t know the digital sales numbers compared to 4.

Then we’ve got things like this:




Grounded just topped steam sales, another game pass game: https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/29/21346459/grounded-steam-sales-charts-release-game-pass

another third party dev who found being on game pass increased sales: https://twinfinite.net/2019/03/xbox-game-pass-developer/

Then we have things like this:


I think I’ve probably given enough to back up what I said.
Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters? Yet that link says "highest launch month dollar sales in Forza franchise history, and is the biggest launch for a racing game on any Xbox platform in history. Forza Horizon 4 was the seventh best-selling game of September." Once again Microsoft obfuscates things by not giving actual sales numbers like Sony and Nintendo do.

Interestingly if you look at the list of top selling Xbox One games (all games with over 1m sales), Forza Horizon 4 isn't on the list so once again Microsoft is hiding these "gangbuster" numbers. I wonder why that might be...


Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5m. Pretty low numbers for a big name AAA game. In fact for most games of that type, those numbers would be considered a failure. All we know is Forza Horizon 4 had a bigger launch in terms of dollar sales, and was a whopping 7th in the sales charts for September.

Gears 5 you even admit we don't know the digital numbers. So once again they're hiding the numbers. Instead we got the 'number of people playing' and we both know damn well that most people played via GamePass. I have the game on PC and it's fair to say the servers arent exactly overflowing at the seams lol. No.1 on Steam for its releases week? Who cares if it's no.1 in a list of low sellers.

In reality it appears Gears 5 was a sales flop:

If we look at how the game stacks up to rival PlayStation exclusives – things don’t look too peachy. God of War, arguably among the best PlayStation 4 exclusives from this generation, sold over 3.4 million copies in the first three days after release.

Now, compared to Gears 5 purported 3 million players, this doesn’t seem like much. But we have to remember that many of the gamers playing are doing so via a monthly subscription rather than buying the game outright.

By way of example, Gears 5 sold roughly 25% less hard copies that Gears of War 4 as players opted for the digital subscription service route to play the game.

They are buying into a steady stream of games rather than a single title. In terms of actual sales, Gears 5 was outclassed by NBA 2K20 and even stalwart 6-year-old Grand Theft Auto V last week for the EMEAA region.

Additionally, Gears 5 widens the pool of potential players considerably as its available on both PC and Xbox One, while God of War only on PlayStation 4.

With these factors in mind, God of War’s launch massively overshadows Gears 5 and firmly maps out how Sony has dominated the exclusive game this generation despite Microsoft’s best efforts.



GamePass had this amazing impact according to that Microsoft PR statement you linked:
  • 20 percent increase in playtime.
  • 40 percent increase in number of games played.
  • Whenever new games enter Xbox Game Pass, active players double.
  • 25 percent increase in preorders.
  • 10 percent increase in franchise sales.
This is virtually meaningless with no actual benchmarks and reference points. Notice the metrics that might actually be significant are the bottom couple, and yet Microsoft still won't release their sales numbers.

sales for Descenders have tripled since it was added into Xbox Game Pass.

Wow, The Descenders has tripled it's sales? So it sold triple of what exactly?? More than likely it flopped at launch on Xbox, and GamePass gave it a boost, with the dev giving a little PR statement after extending his deal.

It's blindingly obvious Microsoft is using smoke and mirrors. Most people can see straight through their bullshit - but in your case Microsoft can tell you to eat shit, and you respond by asking 'What flavour?'. It's like having a conversation with Frankenstein. If you want to play the forum GamePass spin doctor that's fine, just don't expect anybody with more than 10 braincells to believe you.
 
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MrFunSocks

Gold Member
Jul 9, 2020
1,263
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Forza Horizon sold gangbusters? Yet that link says "highest launch month dollar sales in Forza franchise history, and is the biggest launch for a racing game on any Xbox platform in history. Forza Horizon 4 was the seventh best-selling game of September." Once again Microsoft obfuscates things by not giving actual sales numbers like Sony and Nintendo do.

Interestingly if you look at the list of top selling Xbox One games (all games with over 1m sales), Forza Horizon 4 isn't on the list so once again Microsoft is hiding these "gangbuster" numbers. I wonder why that might be...


Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5m. Pretty low numbers for a big name AAA. In fact for most those numbers would be considered a failure. All we know is Forza Horizon 4 had a bigger launch in terms of dollar sales, and was a whopping 7th in the sales charts for September.

Gears 5 you even admit we don't know the digital numbers. So once again they're hiding the numbers. Instead we got 'number of people playing' and we both know damn well that most people played via GamePass. I have the game on PC and it's fair to say the servers arent exactly overflowing at the seams lol. No.1 on Steam for its releases week? Who cares if it's no.1 in a list of low sellers.

In reality it appears Gears 5 was a sales flop:

If we look at how the game stacks up to rival PlayStation exclusives – things don’t look too peachy. God of War, arguably among the best PlayStation 4 exclusives from this generation, sold over 3.4 million copies in the first three days after release.

Now, compared to Gears 5 purported 3 million players, this doesn’t seem like much. But we have to remember that many of the gamers playing are doing so via a monthly subscription rather than buying the game outright.

By way of example, Gears 5 sold roughly 25% less hard copies that Gears of War 4 as players opted for the digital subscription service route to play the game.

They are buying into a steady stream of games rather than a single title. In terms of actual sales, Gears 5 was outclassed by NBA 2K20 and even stalwart 6-year-old Grand Theft Auto V last week for the EMEAA region.

Additionally, Gears 5 widens the pool of potential players considerably as its available on both PC and Xbox One, while God of War only on PlayStation 4.

With these factors in mind, God of War’s launch massively overshadows Gears 5 and firmly maps out how Sony has dominated the exclusive game this generation despite Microsoft’s best efforts.



GamePass had this amazing impact according to that Microsoft PR statement you linked:
  • 20 percent increase in playtime.
  • 40 percent increase in number of games played.
  • Whenever new games enter Xbox Game Pass, active players double.
  • 25 percent increase in preorders.
  • 10 percent increase in franchise sales.
This is virtually meaningless with no actual benchmarks and reference points. Notice the things that might actually be significant are the bottom couple, and yet Microsoft still won't release their sales numbers.

sales for Descenders have tripled since it was added into Xbox Game Pass.

Wow, The Descenders has tripled it's sales? Wow, so it sold triple of what exactly?? More than likely it flopped at launch on Xbox, and GamePass gave it a boost, with the dev giving a little PR statement after extending his deal.

It's blindingly obvious Microsoft is using smoke and mirrors. Most people can see straight through their bullshit - but in your case they tell you to eat shit, and you respond by asking 'What flavour?' It's like having a conversation with Frankenstein. If you want to play the GamePass spin doctor, just don't expect anybody with more than 10 braincells to believe you.
Don't use wikipedia for sales numbers, especially when most companies do not give sales numbers. Halo 5 for example is listed on there as 5.0 million - that number was taken from a post on here or Reeee from Stinkles where someone said halo 5 bombed sales wise and he said something like "5 million in 3 months is bombing?". So either halo 5 hasn't sold a single copy since 3 months post release, or you can see my point ;)

You're just seeing sales numbers not being released and saying that means the sales numbers are terrible. Microsoft simply don't report sales numbers any more, even when they are great - like Halo 5s were. For Horizon 4, how do you take it being the biggest launch and making the most money in the franchise history as it selling badly? Just because they didn't tell you the exact sales numbers?

You're joining dots that don't exist and making things up based on what you want to see.

Oh and you even dismiss the factual accounts of game pass increasing sales of games just because.........you want to dismiss it lol. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of wanting to have an actual conversation, but then you wrote that last paragraph. See ya
 
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Klayzer

Member
Nov 17, 2018
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Forza Horizon sold gangbusters? Yet that link says "highest launch month dollar sales in Forza franchise history, and is the biggest launch for a racing game on any Xbox platform in history. Forza Horizon 4 was the seventh best-selling game of September." Once again Microsoft obfuscates things by not giving actual sales numbers like Sony and Nintendo do.

Interestingly if you look at the list of top selling Xbox One games (all games with over 1m sales), Forza Horizon 4 isn't on the list so once again Microsoft is hiding these "gangbuster" numbers. I wonder why that might be...


Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5m. Pretty low numbers for a big name AAA. In fact for most those numbers would be considered a failure. All we know is Forza Horizon 4 had a bigger launch in terms of dollar sales, and was a whopping 7th in the sales charts for September.

Gears 5 you even admit we don't know the digital numbers. So once again they're hiding the numbers. Instead we got 'number of people playing' and we both know damn well that most people played via GamePass. I have the game on PC and it's fair to say the servers arent exactly overflowing at the seams lol. No.1 on Steam for its releases week? Who cares if it's no.1 in a list of low sellers.

In reality it appears Gears 5 was a sales flop:

If we look at how the game stacks up to rival PlayStation exclusives – things don’t look too peachy. God of War, arguably among the best PlayStation 4 exclusives from this generation, sold over 3.4 million copies in the first three days after release.

Now, compared to Gears 5 purported 3 million players, this doesn’t seem like much. But we have to remember that many of the gamers playing are doing so via a monthly subscription rather than buying the game outright.

By way of example, Gears 5 sold roughly 25% less hard copies that Gears of War 4 as players opted for the digital subscription service route to play the game.

They are buying into a steady stream of games rather than a single title. In terms of actual sales, Gears 5 was outclassed by NBA 2K20 and even stalwart 6-year-old Grand Theft Auto V last week for the EMEAA region.

Additionally, Gears 5 widens the pool of potential players considerably as its available on both PC and Xbox One, while God of War only on PlayStation 4.

With these factors in mind, God of War’s launch massively overshadows Gears 5 and firmly maps out how Sony has dominated the exclusive game this generation despite Microsoft’s best efforts.



GamePass had this amazing impact according to that Microsoft PR statement you linked:
  • 20 percent increase in playtime.
  • 40 percent increase in number of games played.
  • Whenever new games enter Xbox Game Pass, active players double.
  • 25 percent increase in preorders.
  • 10 percent increase in franchise sales.
This is virtually meaningless with no actual benchmarks and reference points. Notice the things that might actually be significant are the bottom couple, and yet Microsoft still won't release their sales numbers.

sales for Descenders have tripled since it was added into Xbox Game Pass.

Wow, The Descenders has tripled it's sales? Wow, so it sold triple of what exactly?? More than likely it flopped at launch on Xbox, and GamePass gave it a boost, with the dev giving a little PR statement after extending his deal.

It's blindingly obvious Microsoft is using smoke and mirrors. Most people can see straight through their bullshit - but in your case they tell you to eat shit, and you respond by asking 'What flavour?' It's like having a conversation with Frankenstein. If you want to play the GamePass spin doctor, just don't expect anybody with more than 10 braincells to believe you.
For God's sake dude, stop. He's already dead! Notice we never get any hard numbers from Microsoft. The only numbers they have made public was the Gamespass subs. Everything else is shots fired, or pirates booty stolen and nonsense like that.
 

Hezekiah

Member
Jul 16, 2020
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For God's sake dude, stop. He's already dead! Notice we never get any hard numbers from Microsoft. The only numbers they have made public was the Gamespass subs. Everything else is shots fired, or pirates booty stolen and nonsense like that.
He literally starts by saying "Don't use wikipedia for sales numbers, especially when most companies do not give sales numbers."

I guess Sony and Nintendo aren't most companies then! It's only for fucking Microsoft that I have to resort to this shit. Feel like I've wasted at least an hour of my life today 😁.

Brain dead.
 
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Klayzer

Member
Nov 17, 2018
1,216
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465
Texas City,Texas
He literally starts by saying "Don't use wikipedia for sales numbers, especially when most companies do not give sales numbers."

I guess Sony and Nintendo aren't most companies then! It's only for fucking Microsoft that I have to resort to this shit. Feel like I've wasted at least an hour of my life today 😁.

Brain dead.
Everybody but Xbox would be correct. Fixed that for him.

Nothing personal Mr. Socks just jiving with you.
 
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MrFunSocks

Gold Member
Jul 9, 2020
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He literally starts by saying "Don't use wikipedia for sales numbers, especially when most companies do not give sales numbers."

I guess Sony and Nintendo aren't most companies then! It's only for fucking Microsoft that I have to resort to this shit. Feel like I've wasted at least an hour of my life today 😁.

Brain dead.
How many copies did killzone shadow fall sell as of July 2020?

How many copies has The Last Guardian sold as of July 2020?

Microsoft don't give sales numbers even when they're excellent. Again, I cite Halo 5. They didn't give official sales numbers *anywhere*, even though it sold over 5 million in the first 3 months. Stinkles just commented that in a thread on a forum.
 

JerryinSoCal

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Apr 11, 2020
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Of course there would be people that would have bought it up front that would now play it on game pass though, that's not news.

Like I've been saying, we have literally zero way of knowing how many of those people then go out and buy the game later - I personally did even though I'm still a game pass ultimate subscriber - or how many people having a massive title like Gears 5 being on game pass drew in, and are then spending more money in the ecosystem.

Let's not overlook the fact that microtransactions, "battle pass" type things, and DLC make an absurd amount of money. You don't get those for free with game pass. So people can be playing a game for "free" and then be spending money on microtransaction and dlc that they otherwise wouldn't have bought without game pass being a thing.

Again - game pass itself isn't about making a profit from subscription numbers or first party game sales. Game Pass is about getting people in to the ecosystem cheaply, and once people are in hoping they will spend money - which they are! Think about how online betting sites work - they get people in with free bets and bonus cash, and you can 100% just bet using that money and come out with a tidy little profit, and they made no money off you. That's fine, they don't care, because at the end of the day more people bought into it and are staying because of it. If it didn't work they wouldn't do it, and they've been doing it for years and years and years. You can be assured that MS have people much smarter than you or I with access to much more data than you or I that have determined that it is profitable overall to the company, otherwise they wouldn't be doubling down on it. MS don't just keep throwing money away down the toilet - we know that they will shut down projects that aren't financially viable.


Absolutely it is. It's a paid trial service for many people, and that's one of the selling points! Try these 100+ games for $10 a month! If you like them, you can buy them with a 10% discount. You say this like it's a bad thing?
Again NPD covers MS's strongest region, if the game sold well at any time it would chart in the top 20.
 
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MrFunSocks

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Again NPD covers MS's strongest region, if the game sold well at any time it would chart in the top 20.
You're again missing the point of game pass, and the reason why MS are putting their first party games on there.

They're not expecting to make the money that they miss on sales back in game pass subscriptions. They're expecting to make it back in digital purchases and accessories across the board.

Game Pass is a loss-leader. It's to get people in the door. They've obviously worked out that running it at x loss amounts for y profit across the board, and they're happy with x and y so they're going to not only continue it but double down and go all in on it.

Again - get people on xbox because of the insane value of gamepass, and then keep them around and lock them in your ecosystem where they spend that fortnite money. This isn't rocket science.
 

Redlancet

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For God's sake dude, stop. He's already dead! Notice we never get any hard numbers from Microsoft. The only numbers they have made public was the Gamespass subs. Everything else is shots fired, or pirates booty stolen and nonsense like that.
The only númbers i get from xbox fanboys its the dolar the spend trying to get into gamepas deals
 

Redlancet

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You're again missing the point of game pass, and the reason why MS are putting their first party games on there.

They're not expecting to make the money that they miss on sales back in game pass subscriptions. They're expecting to make it back in digital purchases and accessories across the board.

Game Pass is a loss-leader. It's to get people in the door. They've obviously worked out that running it at x loss amounts for y profit across the board, and they're happy with x and y so they're going to not only continue it but double down and go all in on it.

Again - get people on xbox because of the insane value of gamepass, and then keep them around and lock them in your ecosystem where they spend that fortnite money. This isn't rocket science.
 

Redlancet

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Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters? Yet that link says "highest launch month dollar sales in Forza franchise history, and is the biggest launch for a racing game on any Xbox platform in history. Forza Horizon 4 was the seventh best-selling game of September." Once again Microsoft obfuscates things by not giving actual sales numbers like Sony and Nintendo do.

Interestingly if you look at the list of top selling Xbox One games (all games with over 1m sales), Forza Horizon 4 isn't on the list so once again Microsoft is hiding these "gangbuster" numbers. I wonder why that might be...


Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5m. Pretty low numbers for a big name AAA game. In fact for most games of that type, those numbers would be considered a failure. All we know is Forza Horizon 4 had a bigger launch in terms of dollar sales, and was a whopping 7th in the sales charts for September.

Gears 5 you even admit we don't know the digital numbers. So once again they're hiding the numbers. Instead we got the 'number of people playing' and we both know damn well that most people played via GamePass. I have the game on PC and it's fair to say the servers arent exactly overflowing at the seams lol. No.1 on Steam for its releases week? Who cares if it's no.1 in a list of low sellers.

In reality it appears Gears 5 was a sales flop:

If we look at how the game stacks up to rival PlayStation exclusives – things don’t look too peachy. God of War, arguably among the best PlayStation 4 exclusives from this generation, sold over 3.4 million copies in the first three days after release.

Now, compared to Gears 5 purported 3 million players, this doesn’t seem like much. But we have to remember that many of the gamers playing are doing so via a monthly subscription rather than buying the game outright.

By way of example, Gears 5 sold roughly 25% less hard copies that Gears of War 4 as players opted for the digital subscription service route to play the game.

They are buying into a steady stream of games rather than a single title. In terms of actual sales, Gears 5 was outclassed by NBA 2K20 and even stalwart 6-year-old Grand Theft Auto V last week for the EMEAA region.

Additionally, Gears 5 widens the pool of potential players considerably as its available on both PC and Xbox One, while God of War only on PlayStation 4.

With these factors in mind, God of War’s launch massively overshadows Gears 5 and firmly maps out how Sony has dominated the exclusive game this generation despite Microsoft’s best efforts.



GamePass had this amazing impact according to that Microsoft PR statement you linked:
  • 20 percent increase in playtime.
  • 40 percent increase in number of games played.
  • Whenever new games enter Xbox Game Pass, active players double.
  • 25 percent increase in preorders.
  • 10 percent increase in franchise sales.
This is virtually meaningless with no actual benchmarks and reference points. Notice the metrics that might actually be significant are the bottom couple, and yet Microsoft still won't release their sales numbers.

sales for Descenders have tripled since it was added into Xbox Game Pass.

Wow, The Descenders has tripled it's sales? So it sold triple of what exactly?? More than likely it flopped at launch on Xbox, and GamePass gave it a boost, with the dev giving a little PR statement after extending his deal.

It's blindingly obvious Microsoft is using smoke and mirrors. Most people can see straight through their bullshit - but in your case Microsoft can tell you to eat shit, and you respond by asking 'What flavour?'. It's like having a conversation with Frankenstein. If you want to play the forum GamePass spin doctor that's fine, just don't expect anybody with more than 10 braincells to believe you.
Mrfunsocks being destroyed here
 

Dabaus

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i always love reading xbox fanboys comments these days
they lost there mind when epic showed unreal engine demo on ps5 after the disaster episode of inside xbox on may
and the xbox july event made it even worse for them after all the hype for halo only good thing about the even was the craig mems
they reminds me of the sega dreamcast fans 20 years ago lol
I’m not all that familiar with the mistakes and missteps SEGA made but it’d be great if someone with more knowledge than me made a list of parallels between what SEGA did and what Microsoft is doing now. As of right now, assuming ps5s price isn’t ps3 levels of stupid, it really does look to me like we’re living in the last days of Xbox.
 
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Forza Horizon 4 sold gangbusters? Yet that link says "highest launch month dollar sales in Forza franchise history, and is the biggest launch for a racing game on any Xbox platform in history. Forza Horizon 4 was the seventh best-selling game of September." Once again Microsoft obfuscates things by not giving actual sales numbers like Sony and Nintendo do.

Interestingly if you look at the list of top selling Xbox One games (all games with over 1m sales), Forza Horizon 4 isn't on the list so once again Microsoft is hiding these "gangbuster" numbers. I wonder why that might be...


Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5m. Pretty low numbers for a big name AAA game. In fact for most games of that type, those numbers would be considered a failure. All we know is Forza Horizon 4 had a bigger launch in terms of dollar sales, and was a whopping 7th in the sales charts for September.

Gears 5 you even admit we don't know the digital numbers. So once again they're hiding the numbers. Instead we got the 'number of people playing' and we both know damn well that most people played via GamePass. I have the game on PC and it's fair to say the servers arent exactly overflowing at the seams lol. No.1 on Steam for its releases week? Who cares if it's no.1 in a list of low sellers.

In reality it appears Gears 5 was a sales flop:

If we look at how the game stacks up to rival PlayStation exclusives – things don’t look too peachy. God of War, arguably among the best PlayStation 4 exclusives from this generation, sold over 3.4 million copies in the first three days after release.

Now, compared to Gears 5 purported 3 million players, this doesn’t seem like much. But we have to remember that many of the gamers playing are doing so via a monthly subscription rather than buying the game outright.

By way of example, Gears 5 sold roughly 25% less hard copies that Gears of War 4 as players opted for the digital subscription service route to play the game.

They are buying into a steady stream of games rather than a single title. In terms of actual sales, Gears 5 was outclassed by NBA 2K20 and even stalwart 6-year-old Grand Theft Auto V last week for the EMEAA region.

Additionally, Gears 5 widens the pool of potential players considerably as its available on both PC and Xbox One, while God of War only on PlayStation 4.

With these factors in mind, God of War’s launch massively overshadows Gears 5 and firmly maps out how Sony has dominated the exclusive game this generation despite Microsoft’s best efforts.



GamePass had this amazing impact according to that Microsoft PR statement you linked:
  • 20 percent increase in playtime.
  • 40 percent increase in number of games played.
  • Whenever new games enter Xbox Game Pass, active players double.
  • 25 percent increase in preorders.
  • 10 percent increase in franchise sales.
This is virtually meaningless with no actual benchmarks and reference points. Notice the metrics that might actually be significant are the bottom couple, and yet Microsoft still won't release their sales numbers.

sales for Descenders have tripled since it was added into Xbox Game Pass.

Wow, The Descenders has tripled it's sales? So it sold triple of what exactly?? More than likely it flopped at launch on Xbox, and GamePass gave it a boost, with the dev giving a little PR statement after extending his deal.

It's blindingly obvious Microsoft is using smoke and mirrors. Most people can see straight through their bullshit - but in your case Microsoft can tell you to eat shit, and you respond by asking 'What flavour?'. It's like having a conversation with Frankenstein. If you want to play the forum GamePass spin doctor that's fine, just don't expect anybody with more than 10 braincells to believe you.
Okay, your Gears 5 stuff makes no sense without considering any context. You want to single out its tepid performance in EMEAA area...when it has already been well established that MS either flatlined or declined in those areas much earlier this gen which had nothing to do with Gears 5. Gears 5's performance in those regions would be the result of XBO low performance in those regions (which, tbf, MS did not even necessarily prioritize). You're also forgetting that games have been shifting to a majority of their sales being digital, so I see little reason why you're harping on the physical sales so much.

Regarding Forza, all of the more recent games have been within that particular ballpark IIRC. That franchise has an excellent budget-to-revenue/profit ratio, better than most AAA games out there. It's also a sim racer (well, the main games are), a genre which is not particularly popular in America. They are more popular in Europe, but Xbox has not done well in that location this gen, so again, if sales performance for the Forza games were lower than they could've been in the region, the blame for that falls on MS having the Xbox brand underperform in the region prior and, honestly, they don't give the Forza games anywhere near the budget Sony gives Gran Turismo.

If you're going to use numbers to support your argument, understand the full context surrounding those numbers, otherwise you use them poorly.
 

Hezekiah

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Okay, your Gears 5 stuff makes no sense without considering any context. You want to single out its tepid performance in EMEAA area...when it has already been well established that MS either flatlined or declined in those areas much earlier this gen which had nothing to do with Gears 5. Gears 5's performance in those regions would be the result of XBO low performance in those regions (which, tbf, MS did not even necessarily prioritize). You're also forgetting that games have been shifting to a majority of their sales being digital, so I see little reason why you're harping on the physical sales so much.

Regarding Forza, all of the more recent games have been within that particular ballpark IIRC. That franchise has an excellent budget-to-revenue/profit ratio, better than most AAA games out there. It's also a sim racer (well, the main games are), a genre which is not particularly popular in America. They are more popular in Europe, but Xbox has not done well in that location this gen, so again, if sales performance for the Forza games were lower than they could've been in the region, the blame for that falls on MS having the Xbox brand underperform in the region prior and, honestly, they don't give the Forza games anywhere near the budget Sony gives Gran Turismo.

If you're going to use numbers to support your argument, understand the full context surrounding those numbers, otherwise you use them poorly.
The point is Gears 5 would have sold significantly better if it wasn't on GamePass, and it's going to take a hell of a lot of subs to get their money back - especially with the number of $1 subs going around.

As far as Forza goes, nothing about budget-to-revenue was mentioned before, you've just brought that in yourself. He said it sold "gangbusters". I'm pointing out that it almost certainly didn't.

And I certainly don't see digital sales suddenly spiking and making this huge difference. People's resources are finite - that includes time and money.
 

AmuroChan

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The point is Gears 5 would have sold significantly better if it wasn't on GamePass, and it's going to take a hell of a lot of subs to get their money back - especially with the number of $1 subs going around.

As far as Forza goes, nothing about budget-to-revenue was mentioned before, you've just brought that in yourself. He said it sold "gangbusters". I'm pointing out that it almost certainly didn't.

And I certainly don't see digital sales suddenly spiking and making this huge difference. People's resources are finite - that includes time and money.

I do think that if GP was a huge financial success for MS, they would've released more granular statistics about that on their earnings calls. It's not necessarily pertinent information for gamers, but as a MS stockholder, it's definitely something I would like to know as it impacts my investment strategy long term. It doesn't mean it's losing money either. It could just be that it's not at the level where they want to gloat about it yet to their investors.
 
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The point is Gears 5 would have sold significantly better if it wasn't on GamePass, and it's going to take a hell of a lot of subs to get their money back - especially with the number of $1 subs going around.

As far as Forza goes, nothing about budget-to-revenue was mentioned before, you've just brought that in yourself. He said it sold "gangbusters". I'm pointing out that it almost certainly didn't.

And I certainly don't see digital sales suddenly spiking and making this huge difference. People's resources are finite - that includes time and money.
Gears 4 sales didn't exactly set the world on fire, in fact the series has been on a downward trend sales-wise since the first, making it available to GamePass is probably the best they could do to find a bigger audience.
 
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Redlancet

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Okay, your Gears 5 stuff makes no sense without considering any context. You want to single out its tepid performance in EMEAA area...when it has already been well established that MS either flatlined or declined in those areas much earlier this gen which had nothing to do with Gears 5. Gears 5's performance in those regions would be the result of XBO low performance in those regions (which, tbf, MS did not even necessarily prioritize). You're also forgetting that games have been shifting to a majority of their sales being digital, so I see little reason why you're harping on the physical sales so much.

Regarding Forza, all of the more recent games have been within that particular ballpark IIRC. That franchise has an excellent budget-to-revenue/profit ratio, better than most AAA games out there. It's also a sim racer (well, the main games are), a genre which is not particularly popular in America. They are more popular in Europe, but Xbox has not done well in that location this gen, so again, if sales performance for the Forza games were lower than they could've been in the region, the blame for that falls on MS having the Xbox brand underperform in the region prior and, honestly, they don't give the Forza games anywhere near the budget Sony gives Gran Turismo.

If you're going to use numbers to support your argument, understand the full context surrounding those numbers, otherwise you use them poorly.
Dude i know the beating its so hard that you need to come to help the poor dude, but he is using the correct number and its destroying your arguments without even trying, dont do this to yourself
 

Redlancet

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Gears 4 sales didn't exactly set the world on fire, in fact the series has been on a downward trend sales-wise since the first, making it available to GamePass is probably the best they could do to find a bigger audience.
Where is gears 5? Gamepass helped? The way helped bleeding edge?
 
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Where is gears 5? Gamepass helped? The way helped bleeding edge?
If more people got into it than Gears 4 and bought the dumb skins it helped, sure. Or if it got people into the franchise and now a potential Gears 6 is bigger. I dunno, personally I returned to the franchise after a long hiatus because Gamepass enabled my return, I was thoroughly disappointed with both Gears 4 and 5 but I only played the co-op campaigns, the multiplayer/horde modes in these games has always been kindof a joke to me.
 

Tulipanzo

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How many copies did killzone shadow fall sell as of July 2020?

How many copies has The Last Guardian sold as of July 2020?

Microsoft don't give sales numbers even when they're excellent. Again, I cite Halo 5. They didn't give official sales numbers *anywhere*, even though it sold over 5 million in the first 3 months. Stinkles just commented that in a thread on a forum.
Halo 5 sales were so excellent that we know it sold "about as well" as the other ones. Not from MS, no, we know from the always trustworthy Michael Pachter
 

Iced Arcade

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Lol people saying "gears, forza" didn't sell as many copies since gamepass.




.......no shit. I don't think a single person at MS (including Becky the secretary) expected any different, it's kind of point.
 
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Dude i know the beating its so hard that you need to come to help the poor dude, but he is using the correct number and its destroying your arguments without even trying, dont do this to yourself
........ I just wanted to see something to the context of his use of his numbers, that's all. The numbers themselves are accurate, I won't deny that.

The point is Gears 5 would have sold significantly better if it wasn't on GamePass, and it's going to take a hell of a lot of subs to get their money back - especially with the number of $1 subs going around.

As far as Forza goes, nothing about budget-to-revenue was mentioned before, you've just brought that in yourself. He said it sold "gangbusters". I'm pointing out that it almost certainly didn't.

And I certainly don't see digital sales suddenly spiking and making this huge difference. People's resources are finite - that includes time and money.
Maybe Gears 5 would've sold better if not on Gamepass, but it's also possible they could've gained the same or more levels of net profits from whatever sales they had do to higher user engagement? The diehards being the ones to buy the game, and most likely also buy all or most of the DLC too, offsetting some of the lost sales to Gamepass? I'm just speculating on this one.

I just mentioned the budget-to-revenue stuff with Forza because sometimes when I see people quote sales figures for a game to imply it's sold poorly (which also carries the implication it made no revenue or profit), sometimes they don't consider that not all games have the same type of budget or marketing. If some budget game costing say $10 million to make sells 3 million copies, that's going to bring in a lot more revenue (and likely profit) than some game with a budget of $60 million selling 3 million copies. That's all I was wanting to convey.
 
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ShadowWolf712

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The problem is you have the same mind set as Sony - not to enhance gaming and first party exclusives, but to destroy gaming for anyone else. You are legit supporting Sony to destroy gaming on non Sony platforms.

Have fun when Sony kills Microsoft, and they can charge whatever they want on hardware and 100 euro on games. I assure you, if Sony had monopoly, they wouldn't think twice about fucking you over, just like any other company.
Holy hell, the hyperbole is real.

People were making the exact same sort of comments when Sega folded. Blamed Sony, said PlayStation was trying to monopolize gaming, argued they needed to be "put down for the good of gaming" even, and what happened?

Microsoft stepped in and launched a console line.

And that is exactly how this market has always worked. TONS of console companies folded, someone else was always ready to take their place. If Xbox flops and folds, this'll be no different.

I'll tell ya this tho, at least Sony's not at Nintendo's level of threatening any publisher who doesn't bring a game to their platform with the promise that they'll never publish on there again if they don't. Or jacking up licensing fees. Or intentionally restricting the supply of proprietary carts in order to charge third parties more to order them. lol the industry's been FAR worse off than this in that regard.

Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo are not your friend. Your favorite piece of plastic is not God. They are companies that want your money, and they don't give a fuck about the rest.

Absolutely tired of seeing this tossed out there like anyone not absolutely incensed that the company they patronize is going to bat to get them content somehow think it's cuz they wanna be buddies and Jim Ryan will personally attend their birthday party or some such BS. No kidding they just want my money. So long as they keep doing things that make me WANT to give it to them, they'll have it. Plain and simple.
 
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