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Rumor Inside the target specs of the next Xbox 'Project Scarlett,' 'Anaconda', and 'Lockhart' (WindowsCentral.com )

DeepEnigma

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Internet: Breaking: Anaconda has 12 teraflops of powa!
Cerny fanclub: But NO GAMES!
 

psorcerer

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This isn't accurate. You can't just dictate what sort of performance increase you will get from a resolution drop. Not so easily. It all depends on the specifics of the engine. As for effects and things, these are all serious fillrate hungry areas, where resolution has a MASSIVE impact on them. Case in point, pretty much EVERY game on X right now. Most of them run grand, but the places that they start to drop frame more than the Pro? Effects heavy scenes. Fillrate is and always has been the biggest performance killer, and it likely will be for a long time.

But it's not that hard to be easy on fillrate, recaclulate things each 2 frames, for example. Use 1/4 resolution for some render targets. Etc.
Let's say the only purely scalable solution would be to have a full forward renderer. It will scale up or down infinitely. You can disable per shader, etc.
But nobody uses forward renderers these days...you know why.
 

Gavin Stevens

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But it's not that hard to be easy on fillrate, recaclulate things each 2 frames, for example. Use 1/4 resolution for some render targets. Etc.
Let's say the only purely scalable solution would be to have a full forward renderer. It will scale up or down infinitely. You can disable per shader, etc.
But nobody uses forward renderers these days...you know why.

So essentially you're now telling us that its actually easy to make things render on Lockhart then.

Nice.

Ok carry on everybody.
 
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Jan 29, 2019
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Is Windows Central considered official?

Rumors aren't official, however this site has serious connections in MS and I think that this is as official as we will get untill actual soecs are revealed (it has to be a controlled leak, they don't want to damage their relationship with MS).

Either way, specs were never going to be too far from this (more or less RAM, a give or take a gew GHz or TFs here and there.. all in the same ball park).
 
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I still believe lockhart will be handheld 🤷‍♂️

Someone else's probably already answered this but, there's 0% chance you're getting a 4TF handheld system anytime soon. Not unless it's literally a gaming laptop.

Absolutely. There is nothing I'm seeing here that tells me that wont be the case. I see next gen scarlett games running and looking amazing on scarlett, but then the lockhart version simply reducing a few things here and there, maybe running with lower mips, but at 1080p. Theres ZERO that is saying otherwise to me right now, and thats a pretty decent thing. It would fit lower memory constraints too.

Sure, I would MUCH rather they just focus on one console and use xCloud for running on older consoles. But... Who knows with all that.

But Lockhart holding things back? Nah. Don't see it, at all. Its no different than now, where we have a PS4/Pro and a One/X version. No different.

Actually, PS4 and XBO DO hold back PS4 Pro and the X, respectively. Games are not made for Pro/X at default, they are made to run on PS4 and XBO and simply increase the resolution to utilize the extra power of Pro and X.

However, the use of that extra power is not optimal and doesn't really take advantage of that additional power. The only way one can say PS4 and XBO don't hold back their bigger brothers is the fact Pro and X still use the same Jaguar cores.

Also these systems were built with GPGPU-orientated programming in mind (to varying degrees of effectiveness), so scaling back on the RAM and GPU can have an impact on things that aren't simply memory-intensive or visual/graphics. Additionally, for games needing a decent amount of memory for non-graphical code or data, RAM cutbacks can affect the game design at its core.
 
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Gavin Stevens

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Actually, PS4 and XBO DO hold back PS4 Pro and the X, respectively. Games are not made for Pro/X at default, they are made to run on PS4 and XBO and simply increase the resolution to utilize the extra power of Pro and X.

However, the use of that extra power is not optimal and doesn't really take advantage of that additional power. The only way one can say PS4 and XBO don't hold back their bigger brothers is the fact Pro and X still use the same Jaguar cores.

That’s a bit... different. Essentially atm games are made for a base console and then another high spec console is there to run the same game at a higher resolution.

In the future, the games will be made for the higher spec machine and then lowered in quality/resolution for a lower spec machine.

So it’s a bit different. Same, but different haha
 
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pawel86ck

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This will be my last post because I'm a little bit taken back by how silly this is, but anyway...



No. The point is, if you have a memory limitation coupled with a lower spec GPU but NOT a CPU limitation, you cut back on memory intensive things. Again, common sense.




You're asking a stupid question that will result in a stupid answer. So I'll ask one. What will you be thinking Next Thursday? You haven't added specifics such as what type of game, what camera system or provided any sort of design doc. Lets humour you and say we are making a third person action game that has a design like COD. Well, you would target your base line, right now, at the 2060 level as a max, with a few additional extras for future proofing that will help you down the line. These may be additional memory consumption devices, or higher quality filtering/effects. The point is, if you target what's middle of the road NOW, by the time the game ships you will be old hat. If you target too high as your middle ground, likely nobody will run it.



You're essentially arguing that the PC port of GTAV only includes basic additions for additional settings, and that it looks no better than the PS3/360 releases, you know that right? Becuase the game was made for the PS3/360. So please, tell me you can't see any difference between my 2080ti Ryzen 32gb rig running the game and those consoles. Please. I'll even make it easier for you and cap the frame rate to 30 and the resolution to the same as those consoles, but everything else maxed. Please.
You are correct, GTA5 even on PS4 looked much better than on PS3, and not to mention PC version.


Developers should be able to scale everything like on xbox one x. Some xbox x games runs at x4 higher resolution compared to xbox one and with even higher graphics fidelity on top of that (better shadows resolution, more details, better textures), so it shows how easily they can scale everything with 5x more capable GPU.

MS cant make console just for enthusiasts. If 12F anaconda would be their only console then not many people would buy it, and with small users base developers will not care about xbox anymore. So lockhart is a very good compromise, because thanks to it anaconda can be build with no compromises.

When it comes to RAM, some people here think 16GB is not enough, but thanks to ultra fast SDD developers should be able to drastically reduce cache size, so these 16GB in reality thanks to SDD will run much better graphics than even 32GB anyway. Guys MS engineers know what they are doing and I'm sure if more than 16GB would make some big difference they would add more the same way as it was on xbox one or xbox 360.
 
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pawel86ck

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1. "Games are developed on PC" is irrelevant then. PC as a development tool is not the same as a target platform.
2. When you cannot access directly, only through API - an API becomes your platform.
3. Sony doesn't use OpenGL. It's shader language is similar, but that's about it.
4. You need a much smaller than 4x performance increase to target 4k from 1080p. A lot of low frequency render targets may stay the same resolution. vertex buffers will probably stay the same, low res textures (billboards, particles) will probably stay the same. Etc. It all depends on how will you do it. PS4Pro in ~4k runs HZD much better than PS4 in 1080p where the GPU power difference is 2x only.
Horizon is not 4K native game for sure, it's upscaled. Most PS4P games runs only at 2x higher resolution compared to standard PS4.

However if I'm not mistaken there are some games like fifa that indeed run at 4K native on PS4P :)
 
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diffusionx

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You are correct, GTA5 even on PS4 looked much better than on PS3, and not to mention PC version.


Developers should be able to scale everything like on xbox one x. Some xbox x games runs at x4 higher resolution compared to xbox one and with even higher graphics fidelity on top of that (better shadows resolution, more details, better textures), so it shows how easily they can scale everything with 5x more capable GPU.

MS cant make console just for enthusiast. If 12F anaconda would be their only console then not many people would buy it, and with small users base developers will not care about xbox anymore. So lockhart is a very good compromise, because thanks to it anaconda can be build with no compromises.

When it comes to RAM, some people here think 16GB is not enough, but thanks to ultra fast SDD developers should be able to drastically reduce cache size, so these 16GB in reality thanks to SDD will run much better graphics than even 32GB anyway. Guys MS engineers know what they are doing and I'm sure if more than 16GB would make some big difference they would add more the same way as it was on xbox one or xbox 360.

I remember reading an article in DF where MS said that their goal with the One X was basically, for it to do everything the One S can do at 1080p but at 4K with a bit of room to spare for better effects and stuff. And based on what we have seen this gen it has kind of played out that way. The One X can't do everything at 4K but the One S can't do it at 1080p either.

MS' current strategy is two consoles, same games and services. And they have the user data on that and what people are doing. if they go ahead with two consoles next gen then it's obvious they feel good about that strategy and want it to continue. And honestly it could put Sony in a tough spot, even if PS5 is much more powerful than Lockhart, maybe people don't need to spend that money if they don't have a 4K tv, or are poor, or want GamePass.
 

mckmas8808

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The more that I think about Lockheart, the more I think it actually makes sense. It sounds like a a pain in the ass for devs, but if they can deliver a 1080p "next gen" box for $299 that plays the same games at lower settings I can see a whole lot of those filthy casuals jumping on the bandwagon pretty quickly - and MS absolutely needs this thing to perform well out the gate. Would I buy it? Fuck no. But I know a lot of people that would.

Why are you assuming it'll be $299?

Maybe... Just maybe... its you and others that don't understand this. Microsoft is in the know on how games are made and scaled.

You sure MS' engineers are asking for this and not the business suits pushing the engineers to do it?
 

NickFire

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Why are you assuming it'll be $299?
Do you feel strongly in your doubts? On the one hand, MS has not exactly signaled a willingness to go too low with the X. On the other hand, why bother with a gimped system for non-casual market price? My guess is 299 because they want to push the sales numbers again. I feel 51% confident.
 

mckmas8808

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Do you feel strongly in your doubts? On the one hand, MS has not exactly signaled a willingness to go too low with the X. On the other hand, why bother with a gimped system for non-casual market price? My guess is 299 because they want to push the sales numbers again. I feel 51% confident.

Absoutletely! The Xbox One: SAD is selling for $200 at BestBuy and other stores right now.


It has no disc drive and the 3 games are Minecraft, Sea of Thieves and Fortnite Battle Royale.


To be honest, I mostly pulled it out of my ass. I think that's the only price where it would make sense, anything more would likely fail.

I agree with you that $299.99 price would make some sense. But MS hasn't shown us that they are that aggressive on price.
 

NickFire

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Absoutletely! The Xbox One: SAD is selling for $200 at BestBuy and other stores right now.


It has no disc drive and the 3 games are Minecraft, Sea of Thieves and Fortnite Battle Royale.




I agree with you that $299.99 price would make some sense. But MS hasn't shown us that they are that aggressive on price.

LOL - hence, my 49% lack of confidence.

But seriously though, our eyes have to be lying to us about MS's intent when we see the price of current systems, right? Like seriously, there's no damn way in hell that they will only let out the gimp for $399, $499, or $599, right? I've got no beef with Nintendo, and I'm not throwing shade at them at all. All I'm saying is that MS cannot really expect to win the war against Sony by copying Nintendo's pricing models.
 
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LOL - hence, my 49% lack of confidence.

But seriously though, our eyes have to be lying to us about MS's intent when we see the price of current systems, right? Like seriously, there's no damn way in hell that they will only let out the gimp for $399, $499, or $599, right? I've got no beef with Nintendo, and I'm not throwing shade at them at all. All I'm saying is that MS cannot really expect to win the war against Sony by copying Nintendo's pricing models.
$299 makes sense. Also, the gimp. 😆
 
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Ill take my shot at a wild guess with no certifiable info.

Base model $299 with a 500gb hard drive at 6tf with no disc drive. locked to 1080P 30fps for most games with some running at 60fps

Hardcore model at $499 with 2TB at 14tf. can run majority of games at 4k 60fps. comes with a "premium" controller that is half base controller and half elite. (two built in switches/buttons on the back for button remapping)

I base this on the proven evidence of absolutely nothing.
 

Negotiator

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Why would MS reveal their specs to Sony so soon?

It doesn't make sense to me, unless they're actually aiming higher than that (13TF instead of 12TF and 24GB instead of 16GB RAM).

Maybe they think Sony will be complacent and barely match those figures. Perhaps in the end we'll see 14TF and 32GB RAM, as unrealistic as that sounds to chronic lowballers (back in 2011 we had people here on GAF saying 8GB is impossibru).

This is a high-level game of chess, rest assured... it doesn't matter if the masses realize what's going on behind the scenes.
 
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I remember reading an article in DF where MS said that their goal with the One X was basically, for it to do everything the One S can do at 1080p but at 4K with a bit of room to spare for better effects and stuff. And based on what we have seen this gen it has kind of played out that way. The One X can't do everything at 4K but the One S can't do it at 1080p either.

MS' current strategy is two consoles, same games and services. And they have the user data on that and what people are doing. if they go ahead with two consoles next gen then it's obvious they feel good about that strategy and want it to continue. And honestly it could put Sony in a tough spot, even if PS5 is much more powerful than Lockhart, maybe people don't need to spend that money if they don't have a 4K tv, or are poor, or want GamePass.

I don't
Ill take my shot at a wild guess with no certifiable info.

Base model $299 with a 500gb hard drive at 6tf with no disc drive. locked to 1080P 30fps for most games with some running at 60fps

Hardcore model at $499 with 2TB at 14tf. can run majority of games at 4k 60fps. comes with a "premium" controller that is half base controller and half elite. (two built in switches/buttons on the back for button remapping)

I base this on the proven evidence of absolutely nothing.

I like it.

For those who think that the Lockhart will be $299, does that mean that the X will be $199 by next year?

Bear in mind that Microsoft have already said that the X will be 'forward compatible'. If price is my gatekeeper to next gen, why would I spend $299 when I can spend $199 and be forwards compatible for the first 12-18 months?

IF Microsoft release two consoles, do we have the confidence that they won't ditch the Lockhart after 2 years, drop the price of the Scarlett and release a Scarlett X?
 
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That’s a bit... different. Essentially atm games are made for a base console and then another high spec console is there to run the same game at a higher resolution.

In the future, the games will be made for the higher spec machine and then lowered in quality/resolution for a lower spec machine.

So it’s a bit different. Same, but different haha

I guess we'll see; still not comfortable with Lockhart potentially coming out so early next gen (someone else had a post from a dev they quoted that summed it up perfectly, wish I had bookmarked it though). We haven't probably seen great use of the APUs for GPGPU programming at its maximum because of priorities, but there's no telling if the priorities will shift next gen.

If they do shift to more higher-end GPGPU programming, that's where Lockhart can be a big hindrance. At least, if there is such an adamant focus for it in terms of locally running game software.
 
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Imtjnotu

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Lockhart is what you need to run 4k Scarlett games at 1080p. In fact it will be slightly more capable at 1080p than Scarlet will be at 4k as its 4tf vs 12tf. Setting wont need to be changed in most cases, it will simply be 'you put the game in Scarlett and its 4k, you put the game in Lockhart and its 1080p'.
The only thing holding back next gen is 4k, not Lockhart.
It will not run the same textures, shadows, AO, rt, or frames. Stop this
 
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Dunno why people keep comparing smartphone space with console.
Probably because in just about everything else in life, there's multiple choices from each company and nobody cares.

PC specs are most closely related to game consoles and there's a gazillion different specs, yet PC gamers get along long fine whether someone plays a game on a high end rig, or dicking around with low end settings on their Windows 7 computer.

Everyone has to buy a new laptop or desktop every so often. Add up all the Macs and PCs sold by every site and manufacturer direct and there's got to be a good 100 different configs. And that doesn't even include customizing parts selection with add-ons.

But when was the last time someone you knew were so flabbergasted at the choices they threw up their hands and gave up?
 
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Oct 16, 2017
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PC specs are most closely related to game consoles and there's a gazillion different specs, yet PC gamers get along long fine whether someone plays a game on a high end rig, or dicking around with low end settings on their Windows 7 computer.
There is a reason for that; game consoles set the bar so low that most old PCs like mine are still able to run games. This is CAUSED by weak console machines.

And now if Lockhart is a thing, I expect my old laptop to STILL be able to run new games, because Microsoft has decided they don't want to make next gen games after all.

Do you know what makes PC gamers upgrade? When we are forced to because games don't run on it anymore. It looks like my laptop will stay usable for another eight years, thanks Microsoft!
 
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Fake

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Probably because in just about everything else in life, there's multiple choices from each company and nobody cares.

PC specs are most closely related to game consoles and there's a gazillion different specs, yet PC gamers get along long fine whether someone plays a game on a high end rig, or dicking around with low end settings on their Windows 7 computer.

Everyone has to buy a new laptop or desktop every so often. Add up all the Macs and PCs sold by every site and manufacturer direct and there's got to be a good 100 different configs. And that doesn't even include customizing parts selection with add-ons.

But when was the last time someone you knew were so flabbergasted at the choices they threw up their hands and gave up?
Are you trying to say console market, before Microsoft making bunch of models, always make 600 models?
 
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Are you trying to say console market, before Microsoft making bunch of models, always make 600 models?
Never said that. I don't think there are too many companies that make 600 models of anything. Even 100 is a stretch.

But a couple models wouldn't hurt.

Just like how for the first time in console gaming, some devs have PS4 Pro and X options for performance or resolution. Gamers embraced it. Ok, some gamers probably didn't care, but nothing wrong with a few options.

PC gamers have had slider tweaks forever to cater to their spec. Pretty sure computer users can figure it out.

It's not like gamers all became idiots and couldn't figure out what to do with quality or res focus.

There's actually very few product lines out there with only 1 model by a company.

But some reason console gaming has to be that guy?
 
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Stuart360

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It will not run the same textures, shadows, AO, rt, or frames. Stop this
Of course it will. Textures might be a bit higher rez on Scarlett in some games, to take advantage of 4k, but Lockhart at 1080p will be just as capable effects and polygons wise as Scarlett is at 4k.
 

Imtjnotu

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Of course it will. Textures might be a bit higher rez on Scarlett in some games, to take advantage of 4k, but Lockhart at 1080p will be just as capable effects and polygons wise as Scarlett is at 4k.
With less ram...
Come on son don't be that dense
 

Stuart360

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With less ram...
Come on son don't be that dense
lol some of you are the ones being dense. It honestly blows my mind how so many of you cant get your head around this concept.
You can certainly tell how many of you dont game on PC's.
 

GermanZepp

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That’s a bit... different. Essentially atm games are made for a base console and then another high spec console is there to run the same game at a higher resolution.

In the future, the games will be made for the higher spec machine and then lowered in quality/resolution for a lower spec machine.

So it’s a bit different. Same, but different haha

Understood. So, lets say a game is designed for anaconda or ps5, and it take advantage of nextgen features. Fast gameplay and stages like the spiderman ssd loading demo, raytracing stuff and that fancy unreal engine 4 destruction demo. So you scale back or cut off all that to make it run on ps4/xone?
 
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lol some of you are the ones being dense. It honestly blows my mind how so many of you cant get your head around this concept.
You can certainly tell how many of you dont game on PC's.
You certainly don't game on PCs long enough to know a time before consoles gimped PC game development. There was a time when PC games were designed to run on only PCs, and players had to regularly upgrade when they want to play the latest and greatest.

The console gaming got big, and now most PCs can run games that were ported for Consoles. And that's when it became a waste of time to upgrade PCs, because consoles hold PC gaming back. And it has been like that at least two console generations now.

I was hoping that next gen would force me to justify buying a new computer. But it seems Lockhart meant I don't need to anymore.
 

Stuart360

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Understood. So, lets say a game is designed for anaconda or ps5, and it take advantage of nextgen features. Fast gameplay and stages like the spiderman ssd loading demo, raytracing stuff and that fancy unreal engine 4 destruction demo. So you scale back or cut off all that to make it run on ps4/xone?
There will be loads of games doing that anyway in the first couple of years, with all the cross gen games. And last gen consoles will certainly have more of an impact on next gen games than Lockhart will (as it wont at all).
 

Stuart360

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You certainly don't game on PCs long enough to know a time before consoles gimped PC game development. There was a time when PC games were designed to run on only PCs, and players had to regularly upgrade when they want to play the latest and greatest.

The console gaming got big, and now most PCs can run games that were ported for Consoles. And that's when it became a waste of time to upgrade PCs, because consoles hold PC gaming back. And it has been like that at least two console generations now.

I was hoping that next gen would force me to justify buying a new computer. But it seems Lockhart meant I don't need to anymore.
If you're happy at gaming on PC at 1080p then yeah sure. But wouldnt you rather try and match the 4k of Scarlett and PS5?.
 

Imtjnotu

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There will be loads of games doing that anyway in the first couple of years, with all the cross gen games. And last gen consoles will certainly have more of an impact on next gen games than Lockhart will (as it wont at all).
Isn't it said it is using less ram than the Scarlett. If that's the case why isn't the one s using the same textures and such as the one x in games like rdr2.

I don't get yall lol
 

Stuart360

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Isn't it said it is using less ram than the Scarlett. If that's the case why isn't the one s using the same textures and such as the one x in games like rdr2.

I don't get yall lol
Well how much less ram does Lockhart supposedly have compared to Scarlett?. Going from 1080p to 4k on PC usually adds about 2gb of vram (id does differ a bit depending on the game), so Lockhart being 1080p means it can have 2gb less ram already.
 

GermanZepp

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There will be loads of games doing that anyway in the first couple of years, with all the cross gen games. And last gen consoles will certainly have more of an impact on next gen games than Lockhart will (as it wont at all).
I don't get your point. I think a proper nextgen game is the one that can't be doable in last gen hardware without make it shitty. Like ps3 gta5 can't be done in ps2 hardware. Edit: or something like horizon zd couldn't be on ps3 without be a mess
 
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If you're happy at gaming on PC at 1080p then yeah sure. But wouldnt you rather try and match the 4k of Scarlett and PS5?.
No, because my computer runs fine. The same way people wouldn't buy Lockhart because their Xbox1S would be able to run the same games. If you don't want to spend the money for Scarlet, then certainly there is no justification to buy Lockhart when the 1S is still able to run all crossgen and MS exclusives.

See, people who care about 4K, are NOT the kind of people who would buy Lockhart over Scarlet. Just as the kind of people who have fast and powerful internet, are not the kind who would buy Stadia. People who don't want to pay for Scarlet, would just stay in current gen for a few more years. Microsoft told them that their 1S would still be able to run Halo Infinite, so why should they care about Lockhart?
 
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