• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Inside Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart on PS5: The Insomniac Technology Breakdown

Mar 27, 2020
14,086
36,637
725
Uncharted bunghole
just goes to show how far ahead Cerny really was. this is an even bigger deal than 8GB GDDR5 which also took a while to become standard on mid to high end PC GPUs because the PS4 only had 5 GB of VRAM available for games and some of it was used for system ram which PC games have an abundance of.

This is almost 11 Zen 2 Cores of performance that they will need dedicated hardware for. Anything is possible, but I think cerny deserves a lot of credit for designing something that is years ahead of anything in the PC space and for only $399.

Meanwhile PC owners have to wait for RTX I/O and Direct Storage. But even then it will take some time for the public to adopt the technology. It's not like you can flip a switch and obtain all the I/O benefits that the PS5 has. And even after people start to adopt the technology HDDs will still be used by a lot of gamers on PC. Maybe not you're enthusiast's but certainly many average Joe's will be stuck with HDDs. Might take some time for SSDs to become part of the minimum requirements.
 

GHG

Member
Nov 9, 2006
26,481
40,528
1,845
What's the dynamic resolution for mate? It's to reduce GPU workload, don't try to be smart 😁

Listen dumbass.

My previous PC build was a 3570k paired with a 980ti. It served me tremendously well until I upgraded to a 120hz screen, then all hell broke lose and it struggled to hit 120fps in modern games no matter how much I lowered the settings or resolution. The CPU was pegged at 100% utilisation while the GPU was sat at ~50-60% utilisation. I then upgraded to a new CPU (3900x) and the problem went away.

When you get past the threshold of 60fps the game is far more demanding on the CPU regardless of the resolution in a lot of cases. You can drop it down to 720p but if the CPU is the bottleneck you will see zero improvement in framerate and the GPU will just be sat there chilling.

Dynamic resolution is there for scenarios where you are GPU bound, not CPU bound.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
12,188
34,257
1,260
Meanwhile PC owners have to wait for RTX I/O and Direct Storage. But even then it will take some time for the public to adopt the technology. It's not like you can flip a switch and obtain all the I/O benefits that the PS5 has. And even after people start to adopt the technology HDDs will still be used by a lot of gamers on PC. Maybe not you're enthusiast's but certainly many average Joe's will be stuck with HDDs. Might take some time for SSDs to become part of the minimum requirements.
I dont know about that. everyone has an ssd nowadays, even cheap laptops.

devs dont give a fuck about PC average Joes. they will set the minimum requirements based on the ps5 or xbox series s specs.
 
Last edited:
Mar 27, 2020
14,086
36,637
725
Uncharted bunghole
I dont know about that. everyone has an ssd nowadays, even cheap laptops.

devs dont give a fuck about PC average Joes. they will set the minimum requirements based on the ps5 or xbox series s specs.

Well yes minimum requirements tend to increase with every console generation. SSDs are certainly a lot more common than before but nobody has any hardware like the RTX I/O GPUs. That's going to take some time for people to adopt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raonak

Unknown?

Member
Jan 5, 2016
5,038
3,656
560
I dont know about that. everyone has an ssd nowadays, even cheap laptops.

devs dont give a fuck about PC average Joes. they will set the minimum requirements based on the ps5 or xbox series s specs.
PC devs don't care about their biggest market?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raonak

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
12,188
34,257
1,260
Listen dumbass.

My previous PC build was a 3570k paired with a 980ti. It served me tremendously well until I upgraded to a 120hz screen, then all hell broke lose and it struggled to hit 120fps in modern games no matter how much I lowered the settings or resolution. The CPU was pegged at 100% utilisation while the GPU was sat at ~50-60% utilisation. I then upgraded to a new CPU (3900x) and the problem went away.

When you get past the threshold of 60fps the game is far more demanding on the CPU regardless of the resolution in a lot of cases. You can drop it down to 720p but if the CPU is the bottleneck you will see zero improvement in framerate and the GPU will just be sat there chilling.

Dynamic resolution is there for scenarios where you are GPU bound, not CPU bound.
I think what people dont realize is that devs havent pushed the cpu since crysis in 2007. thats why the cpu loads are in the teens at max in 90% of the games because they were coded around the limitations of the jaguar CPUs.

insomniac is likely taxing the CPU with all those NPCs in every single area, and those spaceships flying in most cities. Yes, the GPU has to render all those things but the cpu also has to do its calculations 4x faster to go from 30 fps to 120 fps. if its already around 60% usage at 30 fps, just dropping the gpu resolution will help with the gpu load but wont help the cpu do its calculations any faster.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
12,188
34,257
1,260
PC devs don't care about their biggest market?
i said devs. i am sure pc focused devs who make isometric rpgs will still cater to that market but console focused developers dont care. they will move on.

we already have games with ssds are a requirement.
 
Mar 27, 2020
14,086
36,637
725
Uncharted bunghole
i said devs. i am sure pc focused devs who make isometric rpgs will still cater to that market but console focused developers dont care. they will move on.

we already have games with ssds are a requirement.

I really hope it's a quick transition though. I really don't want slow HDDs to inhibit game design for the next 5 years.
 

assurdum

Banned
Aug 14, 2020
3,799
6,544
530
What's the dynamic resolution for mate? It's to reduce GPU workload, don't try to be smart 😁
Did you cared at least to check the video? They said to have intentionally reduced the GPU works for the 120 Hz output and potentially there is a lot of overhead to max out in the future. That doesn't sounds of bottleneck to me
 
Last edited:

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Jun 1, 2013
9,085
4,264
850
What's the dynamic resolution for mate? It's to reduce GPU workload, don't try to be smart 😁
Will be bookmarking this post....
Did you cared at least to check the video? They said to have intentionally reduced the GPU works for the 120 Hz output and there was potentially a lot of overhead to max out. That doesn't sounds of bottleneck to me
I was wondering the exact same thing....

Just watch the video...then have a debate on twitter with the dev about what you dont agree with if you feel really strongly about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SubZer0

Corndog

Member
Apr 17, 2020
962
983
295
And some people still believe that to be honest. They really don't understand how the developers are using the I/O.

But it seems like they are in a state of denial more than anything.
Why does any thread involving ps5 game have to devolve in ssd,io, cerny worship?
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong
Mar 27, 2020
14,086
36,637
725
Uncharted bunghole
Why does any thread involving ps5 game have to devolve in ssd,io, cerny worship?

You're in the wrong thread buddy.

Why does it irritate you that we talk about technology.

Inside Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart on PS5: The Insomniac Technology Breakdown​


Are you one of the ones in denial?

boom smile GIF


If not then this tech talk shouldn't bother you.

Also if you're not interested in the PS5s tech then that's not my problem you're in this thread.

the real question is why does it trigger you so much?

I guess it's because its the PS5. If it was a tech talk about some other platform he wouldn't be bothered by it. I really don't believe this is the right thread for him.
 
Last edited:

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Jun 1, 2013
9,085
4,264
850
it's literally the topic of the title. the first 20 minutes of this interview are about the ssd and i.o. we are literally discussing the article. it's also the most impressive thing about the ps5 hardware.

the real question is why does it trigger you so much?

You're in the wrong thread buddy.

Why does it irritate you that we talk about technology.



Are you one of the ones in denial?

boom smile GIF


If not then this tech talk shouldn't bother you.

Also if you're not interested in the PS5s tech then that's not my problem you're in this thread.



I guess it's because its the PS5. If it was a tech talk about some other platform he wouldn't be bothered by it. I really don't believe this is the right thread for him.
I have no words, lol.

For those that obviously arent looking at the video....its an interview with an Insomniac dev. And it touches on some great tech info about the PS5 and Rift Apart.

John asked some great questions.

Just realized the info is in the OP....lmao. Are some ppl literally not even looking at the OP?
 
Last edited:
Mar 27, 2020
14,086
36,637
725
Uncharted bunghole
I have no words, lol.

For those that obviously arent looking at the video....its an interview with an Insomniac dev. And it touches on some great tech info about the PS5 and Rift Apart.

John asked some great questions.

It's almost like people don't even check the thread title people posting in it. Just something that annoys me as it only derails the thread.

Definitely some pretty interesting questions answered in this interview. Some of us are genuinely interested in seeing how they built the game around the PS5s tech.

What I think was uncalled for was C Corndog Cerny worship comment. I never like seeing those types of things.
 
Last edited:

Synless

Member
May 13, 2007
11,706
1,126
1,525
Michigan
I posted this in another thread:

I just realized they are using lower resolution on the edges of the screen in performance RT mode. someone who pixel counts could confirm but it’s quite obvious and reminds me of VR games. The image for objects in the center are of higher resolution.

A good chunk of the left and right of the screen are clearly lower res. foreveated rendering I think they call it?

edit* just noticed it’s in Fidelity as well. I’m kind of disappointed by this.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Mister Wolf

Mr Moose

Member
Sep 10, 2013
6,619
14,553
955
England
I posted this in another thread:

I just realized they are using lower resolution on the edges of the screen in performance RT mode. someone who pixel counts could confirm but it’s quite obvious and reminds me of VR games. The image for objects in the center are of higher resolution.

A good chunk of the left and right of the screen are clearly lower res. foreveated rendering I think they call it?

edit* just noticed it’s in Fidelity as well. I’m kind of disappointed by this.
Oh I thought that was just chromatic aberration.
 

abel empire

Banned
Feb 8, 2021
661
1,578
395
It's really not latency, it's throughput. I don't know where this forum keeps getting that; throughput is bottlnecked on PC due to the need to go through CPU/system RAM. The latency is still incredibly low.

But DirectStorage removes that.
Thats not what throughput means, throughput is bandwidth you can have faster nvme drives on pc with faster ram problem is latency and its what you just. Described, the time wasted talking between cpu storage ram and gpu is whats called latency. Throughput is the gb per second your storage or ram can push and thats not the bottleneck.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
8,877
16,356
660
Thats not what throughput means, throughput is bandwidth you can have faster nvme drives on pc with faster ram problem is latency and its what you just. Described, the time wasted talking between cpu storage ram and gpu is whats called latency. Throughput is the gb per second your storage or ram can push and thats not the bottleneck.
Throughput is not bandwidth lol.. WTF are you talking about? What did I say it means? I know what latency is.. it's really not a big latency improvement, the issue is throughput... which is... bottlenecked (and isn't bandwidth.)
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

abel empire

Banned
Feb 8, 2021
661
1,578
395
just goes to show how far ahead Cerny really was. this is an even bigger deal than 8GB GDDR5 which also took a while to become standard on mid to high end PC GPUs because the PS4 only had 5 GB of VRAM available for games and some of it was used for system ram which PC games have an abundance of.

This is almost 11 Zen 2 Cores of performance that they will need dedicated hardware for. Anything is possible, but I think cerny deserves a lot of credit for designing something that is years ahead of anything in the PC space and for only $399.
Hes been in the industry before I was born and I think most gamers today so he knows computer game engineering, and also working with japanese engineers gives sony a step ahead others the japanese are pioneers in electronics infact theres a big debate between nvidia and sony on who.invetned the gpu. Cause sony where the first ones to name the ps1 graphics processor gpu.

Not to say much but all playstation hardware has always been proprietary and alien from ps2s emotion engine to ps3s cell processor to ps4's hardware decompressor unified 8gb gddr5 to ps5s io, God knows what theyll come with on ps6 I think physics simulation would be the biggest innovation going forward than polygins, textures or data
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: roops67 and Rea

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
3,850
12,386
735
I can't stand that shit in most games I'm glad it has a toggle in this, though I don't mind it in this game it looked shit in Bloodborne.
Yeah, the worst I've seen is in modern Resident Evil games. I immediately turn that shit off in those games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr Moose

abel empire

Banned
Feb 8, 2021
661
1,578
395
Throughput is not bandwidth lol.. WTF are you talking about? What did I say it means? I know what latency is.. it's really not a big latency improvement, the issue is throughput... which is... bottlenecked (and isn't bandwidth.)
You cant get faster throughput because of latency as I explained pcs have faster bandwidth than ps5 the ram on pcs is faster the storage is faster problem is the latencies between those devices, cerny explained this in his road to ps5 talk that you can have faster bandwidth but thats not enough because there are alot of latencies you have to remove in order to have full utilization of the nvme bandwidth its why they put so much silicone on the io to remove latencies


 
  • Like
Reactions: MrLove and Raonak

Corndog

Member
Apr 17, 2020
962
983
295
Listen dumbass.

My previous PC build was a 3570k paired with a 980ti. It served me tremendously well until I upgraded to a 120hz screen, then all hell broke lose and it struggled to hit 120fps in modern games no matter how much I lowered the settings or resolution. The CPU was pegged at 100% utilisation while the GPU was sat at ~50-60% utilisation. I then upgraded to a new CPU (3900x) and the problem went away.

When you get past the threshold of 60fps the game is far more demanding on the CPU regardless of the resolution in a lot of cases. You can drop it down to 720p but if the CPU is the bottleneck you will see zero improvement in framerate and the GPU will just be sat there chilling.

Dynamic resolution is there for scenarios where you are GPU bound, not CPU bound.
Why would it be cpu bound? Need more insight from the developers as to why it is even with this massive jump in cpu power.
 

Corndog

Member
Apr 17, 2020
962
983
295
You cant get faster throughput because of latency as I explained pcs have faster bandwidth than ps5 the ram on pcs is faster the storage is faster problem is the latencies between those devices, cerny explained this in his road to ps5 talk that you can have faster bandwidth but thats not enough because there are alot of latencies you have to remove in order to have full utilization of the nvme bandwidth its why they put so much silicone on the io to remove latencies


Why do they need silicone?
 

Corndog

Member
Apr 17, 2020
962
983
295
I posted this in another thread:

I just realized they are using lower resolution on the edges of the screen in performance RT mode. someone who pixel counts could confirm but it’s quite obvious and reminds me of VR games. The image for objects in the center are of higher resolution.

A good chunk of the left and right of the screen are clearly lower res. foreveated rendering I think they call it?

edit* just noticed it’s in Fidelity as well. I’m kind of disappointed by this.
Do you have a screen shot? Sorry so many posts in a row.
 
Last edited:

GHG

Member
Nov 9, 2006
26,481
40,528
1,845
Why would it be cpu bound? Need more insight from the developers as to why it is even with this massive jump in cpu power.

Did you even read my post before replying to it?

The scenario(s) when something becomes CPU bound is already explained. This is consistent across pretty much all games, hence why CPU benchmarks for gaming are typically conducted under 720p.
 
Last edited:

ratburger

Member
Jul 29, 2020
67
118
215
Yeah, it makes sense. When Zen 2 launched, AMD were getting better at gaming perf but were still catching up with Intel's best at that time. While it's a dramatic improvement over Jaguar, there was still room for improvement. That's where Zen 3 comes in.

But I'd say Zen 2 is still very potent and will age just fine over time.

Zen2 desktop chips aren't bad, they're only like 10% slower than Skylake in terms of single-threaded performance. However, the consoles aren't using the desktop chips, but the mobile ones. Hence, only half the L3 cache per CCX, which is a 15% performance hit right there. Furthermore, they're saddled with GDDR6, which has twice the latency of regular DDR4 (and close to 3x that of hand-tuned Samsung B-die @ 55ns). So not only are they going to have a lot more cache misses than a desktop Zen2 CPU, they're going to be waiting on the RAM much longer each time. And games, with their branch-heavy workloads, produce a lot of those. Lastly, the PS5 CPU's max frequency is 3.5GHz versus somewhere between 4.2 and 4.5GHz for most of Zen2's desktop lineup.

All in, you're looking at roughly half the single-threaded performance of the PS5 CPU (and the Series X) compared to a Zen2 CPU in a gaming rig.
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
6,995
2,138
1,660
I dont know about that. everyone has an ssd nowadays, even cheap laptops.

What, that's not true? Cheap laptops have eMMCs, and although at the level we're talking to play this quality of gaming you're going to want a SSD in your tower, people caring for space & price over speed still run SATA HDDs.

I never looked to see what DirectStorage can do for a HDD (it should still be a factor it looks like?) but HDDs will continue to be a market factor unless SSD per-GB price plummets and capacity increases greatly... UNLESS something comes along that proves SSDs are the killer app'accessory for PC play, and these consoles are starting to do that.
 
Last edited:

TrebleShot

Member
Sep 30, 2020
417
872
340
Genuine question here for you PC lot.

is it possible to build a PC that would be able to run R+C with all the teleporting and warping at 60fps with ray tracing at 1440p?

also to take it a step further how about in native 4K bells and whistles in 60fps??

is there an SSD with integration that could pull it off? Or is this also a very rare game that is only possible on PS5 right now?
 

Mister Wolf

Member
Sep 21, 2014
7,623
10,602
930
Genuine question here for you PC lot.

is it possible to build a PC that would be able to run R+C with all the teleporting and warping at 60fps with ray tracing at 1440p?

also to take it a step further how about in native 4K bells and whistles in 60fps??

is there an SSD with integration that could pull it off? Or is this also a very rare game that is only possible on PS5 right now?

Sure. Computer motherboards support up to 128GB of DDR4 RAM. Worst case scenario the whole game could be loaded into RAM but I doubt that would need to happen.
 

skit_data

Member
Nov 3, 2020
2,458
5,965
425
Sure. Computer motherboards support up to 128GB of DDR4 RAM. Worst case scenario the whole game could be loaded into RAM but I doubt that would need to happen.
Read somewhere that this game would take up nearly 200GB space uncompressed. If tht is indeed the case not even 128GB of RAM would be enough. Would a PC be able to decompress it fast enough to provide a seamless experience without dedicated hardware decompression?

Maybe, but it probably take a lot from the CPU doing so.
 

Mister Wolf

Member
Sep 21, 2014
7,623
10,602
930
Read somewhere that this game would take up nearly 200GB space uncompressed. If tht is indeed the case not even 128GB of RAM would be enough. Would a PC be able to decompress it fast enough to provide a seamless experience without dedicated hardware decompression?

Maybe, but it probably take a lot from the CPU doing so.

Why would it need to be fully uncompressed on PC?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

skit_data

Member
Nov 3, 2020
2,458
5,965
425
Why would it need to be fully uncompressed on PC?
I guess it could be compressed but it would probably require quite a lot of CPU juice to constantly decompress it on the fly, but I guess it possibly could work if you have a very good CPU.
It would work a lot better in upcoming GPUs with dedicated decompressors.
 
Last edited:

Mister Wolf

Member
Sep 21, 2014
7,623
10,602
930
I guess it could be compressed but it would probably require quite a lot of CPU juice to constantly decompress it on the fly, but I guess it could work

I don't think compression would be an issue for a Ryzen 3700X let alone a Ryzen 4000 or 5000 series CPU.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong