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I ruined so many games for myself by playing on harder difficulties, I feel that something is wrong with how 3D games build difficulty

Neolombax

Member
As long as it doesnt ruin the experience by being too easy, I would normally go for normal or easy difficulty. I just dont have the time anymore to trouble myself more than I need to. I dont necessarily feel the achievement of beating the game on harder difficulties, I just want to experience the game.
 

Hulk_Smash

Banned
Hard games are supposed to be hard.

If too many enemies becomes a problem on harder difficulties, it's because you don't remember the patterns or the best route to take while playing.

You are essentially wanting the label of hard without the challenge for some reason. Play on Normal, learn the game, then play on Hard.

Even then, these games aren't "hard" like they used to be. You want a hard game? Go play Blood on Extra Crispy difficulty and then play through Doom Eternal again and see if you still think it's hard.
Dude, Dark Souls is the “Blood” of action RPGs.
 
It's not the difficulty I have concern with, it's the cheapness or time involved for the most difficult modes. Generally devs just have cheapness built into the insane levels of difficulty resulting in slower gameplay or replaying over and over until you get the next checkpoint etc. I usually go the "hard" mode from the first play through, just don't want to dedicate my time to some cheap run like Halo SLASO for example. I see the appeal for some but to me that's just not a fun time.
 

chasimus

Member
The thing I like about playing on harder difficulties is that it forces you to change up the way you play the game. Two great examples that come to mind: TLOU2 and Mass Effect 3. If I didn't change up my tactics in ME3 and rely a lot on my skills with using my squad mates I would've never made it through the game. It actually made me appreciate the game more. With TLOU2, you had to be way more clever with with traps/bombs/stealth or you would be playing the same area a hundred times. There are some games that I'll play on easier difficulties, but it's rare. Even if it takes me a lot longer to beat the game
 
I played very few 3D games on higher difficulty. And I remember only 3: Bayonetta, Prince of Persia: the Warrior Within and Ocarina of Time (Master's Quest). Those memories are far though, so I'm not sure if I remember it correctly. But:
  • Bayonetta felt like it was designed for the highest difficulty. Witch time, which until then seemed to be part of the game design, totally disappears and leaves you alone with your skill. Despite the undeniably higher challenge, some platinum trophies were easier to get than on normal difficulty because your combo never ends, due to more enemies spawning.
  • Prince of Persia... After beating the game on normal, I gave it a go on harder difficulty. I didn't went far because I never managed to understand what I am supposed to do against the first crow-like enemy. I ended up in an endless duel, none of us dying.
  • Master's Quest: higher challenge in dungeons, but the difference mainly lies in the level design, which was intelligently handcrafted.
I'm glad I didn't face the issue OP describes. And I have the feeling it is not a 3D games issue, but rather a balancing issue. Like others said, games are often designed around one specific level of difficulty. If you play on an easier or harder level, you will often have a non-optimal experience of the game, and in the worst case, face conceptual issues.
 

Miles708

Member
I agree with what you're saying OP. Most games simply don't have gameplay mechanics that are conductive for higher difficulties. The mechanics in place should be skill and timing based, instead of luck and scripted event based. When a game is skill based, it allows the player to actually get better at the core mechanics, instead of just learning through trial and error. Out of all game mechanics, I hate trial and error the most.

Anywho... designing games that reward skill and finesse takes.... well... skill. And a lot of time. That's why the bulk majority of games have boring gameplay that seems to play itself to a point.

Also, for most games when you up the difficulty passed its original intention and balance (usually Standard/Medium/Hard) it tends to break and show it's flaws. Uncharted is one of the worst offenders that comes to mind.
I agree completely.

Hard difficulties are useless if the gameplay is not deep enough.
Enemies should force the player to think creatively about how to handle the situation using every tool they have.

Problem is, in many games these tools are simply missing, and you have just variations of "shoot" and "cover" mechanics, while severely lacking in movement options and strategic player agency. That's why Uncharted difficulty is bullshit, while Ninja Gaiden difficulty is not.
 
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MHubert

Member
This thread is the Uncharted thread.
I remember playing Uncharted 4 on the highest initial difficulty - The difficulty balance in that game is so effing whack. On medium it's sorta okay but a bit too easy - on hard, it's basically 'hold your cover as long as you can, then find new cover before healthbar depletion' the game.

Loved it to death, tho.
 

John Bilbo

Member
I wish the added difficulty would not come from dealing less damage to enemies, but from more complex enemy A.I. and extra challenges in gameplay.
 

Bragr

Banned
Well, I disagree with everything you've written.

I don't find them any better or worse in translation. They require a different set of skills.
Bulletsponge enemies exist in both 3D and 2D games, the amount of dimensions has no bearing on it.

I think you're probably just bad at 3D games.
Please stop with the "your just bad" bullshit, we aren't 12 years old, I have no issue with failing or dying too much. I play and beat most games on hard modes and that's why I am saying this, there are differences from genre to genre and game to game on how difficulty is designed. Dimensions have plenty of bearing things, 3D and 2D operate under different rules.
 

Bragr

Banned
This thread is the Uncharted thread.
I remember playing Uncharted 4 on the highest initial difficulty - The difficulty balance in that game is so effing whack. On medium it's sorta okay but a bit too easy - on hard, it's basically 'hold your cover as long as you can, then find new cover before healthbar depletion' the game.

Loved it to death, tho.
I loved that game too and did it on the hardest difficulty for the platinum. And there is a good example in that game of what I am talking about, there is a room where guys throw grenades so you have to move, but on the hardest difficulty, you get shot so fast that you can't just rush into open areas. I ended up doing the room over and over and eventually one of the enemies went a different way because of some random A.I. shit and it allowed me to get space enough to take cover on the other side and take everyone out. But it really came down to chance and bullshit to complete that area more than anything.

Luckily, I only had that issue 2 or 3 times during the whole game where I felt it was dumb design, but there are games where half the game is just bullshit like that.
 

MHubert

Member
I loved that game too and did it on the hardest difficulty for the platinum. And there is a good example in that game of what I am talking about, there is a room where guys throw grenades so you have to move, but on the hardest difficulty, you get shot so fast that you can't just rush into open areas. I ended up doing the room over and over and eventually one of the enemies went a different way because of some random A.I. shit and it allowed me to get space enough to take cover on the other side and take everyone out. But it really came down to chance and bullshit to complete that area more than anything.

Luckily, I only had that issue 2 or 3 times during the whole game where I felt it was dumb design, but there are games where half the game is just bullshit like that.
Exactly this.
It just feels so frustrating when the difficulty isn't determined by skill or lack thereof.
 

Tg89

Member
Most games handle difficulty poorly, just giving enemies extra health, you less health, less ammo, stuff like that.

Only games that have satisfying difficulty are those that are actually handcrafted for it. Such as the Souls games where the difficulty is in the mechanics and they don’t have settings, that’s just the game. I feel like a lot of 2D games were like this too, especially platformers.
 

DGrayson

Mod Team and Bat Team
Staff Member
i would say im generallly pretty good at games but i usually stick with stock difficulty unless I read somewhere before that its just too easy.
 
Do you remember what area that was?
Unfortunately, it's been burned into my brain. Chapter 20 of 22, "gotta find a way to the beach!"

Keep in mind, this video is titled "EASY way to beat Ship Graveyard"... this is considered the 'easy' way, which speaks for itself considering how close he comes to dying multiple times even with all these tricks (backtracking right before new spawn, jumping off sides, etc.) and avoiding common foibles (cover that crumbles, heading into ship hold as armored enemies spawn, being so defensive you run out of ammo etc.)



Here are the top comments on the vid:

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For my part, I would get to the ship hold and then die there after clearing the first part and I could clear that first part consistently after many tries, but kept failing at the end. I think I still had some armored enemy that held back to f me up when I got out in the open. Anyway, I decided it wasn't worth my time or sanity so I quit my Crushing playthrough on Ch 20 of 22, lowered the difficulty to Light, then finished the Crushing playthrough 2 hrs later.

Honestly, looking back, Crushing ruined my experience of UC4. I can't say the same of the past games.
 
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Videospel

Member
The important part for me is to still experience the game 'as intended'. If the difference between normal and easy is for example not having to use the block button at all, then playing on easy is obviously a lesser experience. If a harder difficulty makes you die each time you turn a corner and make enemies into bullet sponges, I can do without.
 

Shmunter

Member
I find a lack of challenge to be what can ruin a game. I tune out if it’s a breeze.

Personally I always bump it up from whatever the default is.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
tldr: I feel that in a lot of 3D games, on harder difficulties, the challenge comes down to too much chance, hope, and luck which leads to frustration, rather than "skill building" through conscious design. Alternatively, 2D games and turn-based games can juggle difficulty better because of the predictable rules, and because the sightlines provided gives the player better awareness. I also feel top-down viewpoints offer better rules for building player skills (like RTS-games).

I ran into this problem with Doom Eternal, and it made me think about my experience with harder difficulty modes in 3D games. Usually, I will tell myself I need to get better and keep grinding until I get through, but I now think this is the wrong way to approach this. In Doom Eternal your skill depends on timing and movement around the level, dodging, staying in areas where the demons have a limited potential to hit you, and so on. But because of the speed of the demons and the battles that involve many enemies at once, the chance to skillfully move and strike seems to more arbitrary than it should, it takes too long to memorize the arenas and learn where all the demons come from, and it becomes a battle where you end up just doing an area 20 times over and over, and hope that one of the times you take out the most dangerous enemies early before they over-complicate the fight.

I feel that the interesting and fun parts in 3D games have a tendency to break down at harder modes. You are glad you broke through the hard part, but it didn't result in a feeling of betterment or satisfaction, you are mostly just glad you don't have to do that fucking part again.

I find that frustrating, and I notice the same while playing most of the top 3D games on the market, even God of War has some really annoying parts on the harder difficulty that feel poorly conceived. Most will think of the From Software games, and I do feel those games are better tuned, but there is still plenty of parts where you fight many enemies at once and the game starts to struggle. Sekiro is the best at this because of the speed you can get away and regroup, but Dark Souls and Bloodborne certainly struggle when you face many enemies at once, as your ability to predict all of them is too poor, and the characters take a while to recover from rolls which leads to unforeseen hits. However, the From Software games are smarter in designing levels that are usually tight and understandable than most games, which reduces irritation when facing many enemies even if it's punishing. But it's still there in some form.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that the limited awareness and un-predictable nature of multiple enemies ruin many harder difficulties in too many 3D games, that there is something here that developers haven't figured out yet. It instead becomes a situation where you "sometimes win, sometimes lose", and you just have to do it over and over until you push through, rather than actually becoming better and feeling accomplishment from it.

I don't get any of those negative feelings from games like Cuphead, or StarCraft, or League of Legends, where the skill levels are understandable no matter how punishing. Simply put, too many modern 3D games overlook what is annoying difficulty contra meaningful progress and just scale difficulty based on harder enemies and less health.
Doom Eternal isn't so much about remembering where demons come from as it is being able to react and make quick, optimal choices based on whatever is thrown at you. It takes knowledge of the terrain and fully utilizing your arsenal.

I found that I had trouble on Ultra Violence difficulty (my first time playing Doom...period...might have been a mistake) until I started forcing myself to use my entire arsenal. Certain enemies should prompt you to use certain weapons when possible. Flame belch can be a life saver especially if you beef it up with it's perks.

One important thing to note, I am playing on PC right now and I believe this game is much easier on M&KB than on controller.
 

MastaKiiLA

Member
69 replies, and no one said it yet?

Git gud, newb!

That said, I play on default difficulty. I don't need to get frustrated unnecessarily. There are some games where I will replay on a higher difficulty. I remember fondly my Crushing run through of Uncharted. So satisfying. The game was more enjoyable, just because the AI was clever enough to force you to approach certain encounters strategically.
 

Cryio

Member
"Cinematic" games that emphasize story over gameplay are the worst for this. The Uncharted series' Crushing difficulty has always been bad (UC1 - terrible checkpoints, UC2 and 3 - too easy) but UC4 was absolute bs. Bullet spongy, luck-based, far-too-quick enemy detection from stealth, and most infuriatingly, there are scripted parts where you just have to survive till x event triggers rather than actually being able to kill the enemy. So you're just helplessly trying to avoid bullets as cover crumbles in an instant, and that comes down to bullet trajectories statistically calculated to miss you on your umpteenth try. Later in the game, there's just a section that's utterly impossible without activating cheats. It's just not possible to get through, completely unbalanced.

Don't put in a difficulty mode if you're not going to balance it.
I'm a PC player and I like playing games on harder difficulties, very close to my breaking point most often. But the Uncharted trilogy? I'm afraid to play them on anything higher than normal. 90% of the games are totally a breeze then the last 3 chapters hit and it's the most brutal thing I ever experienced.
 

Sorcerer

Member
I used to always go for the hardest setting for every game all the time. I remember playing the first Alice game that way and Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance (although it took me 2 hours of hiding in a corner to beat the eyeball boss lol). But I can't do it anymore. Horizon and Neir just kicked my ass and I had to play on normal. I know you are supposed to save those difficulties for new game plus, but it bugs me when I have to play on normal, I feel like failed before I even started.
 
Even your tl:dr is too long!

Anyway, I feel the exact opposite, playing games on the normal difficulty in most cases makes them push overs and boring and it's not like my reflexes gor any better with age.

I play a notch or two above these days, but even then with the leveling systems they often become boring once you reach a certain point.
 
I don't see where's this is a matter of being 3D or 2D at all. In a 2D game like Streets of Rage, in harder difficulties you'll get hit harder and enemies will also get more life bars on top of withstanding more hits, among other things like throw in more enemies at once...in a game like Ninja Gaiden (3D Games) or Devil May Cry, is the same thing.
 

Ceadeus

Gold Member
In action games, developers should adopt new enemies movements and pattern on higher difficulty setting, instead of being simply more spongy.

Adding new traps, enemy resistance etc
 
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