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[Audioboxer]

This is what seems to be the crux of the situation. The new Tomb Raider draws alot from UC imo, with the exception of certain thematic elements that I will address later. But for the most parts, the grunts during exertion, needing help in jumps and climbs that are just a bit beyond them (human ability, remember Drake and Lara are still human). Characterizing Jonah as some unstoppable unfeeling guy, if you watch the video he does cover himself often, He is less perturbed by the wind obviously because of his size.

For the most part I don't think Lara is weak nor really needing help for most of the game. She seems a little bit silly some of the things her character does, but I am going to chalk that up to reboot.

But with that said, the original reboot was odd as hell. Like other posters pointed out, it had that "descent" type of feel from the movie. The game for the most part seemed more like thriller/horror with adventure elements in between. That and all the gruesome possible deaths, just didn't remind me of any Tomb Raider I played before, I was feeling more like an action based Resident Evil. Imo, RoTR was the better experience of the two. Both are playable and fun, just the first one was off tonally.

Well from one business being a business to another being a business, devs tend to try and copy/emulate what has success elsewhere. After how bad a place TR went to commercially after a few "failed" games, and sales nose diving, it is on a business front understandable why they tried to chase that UC success.

As for the reboot feel/horror and what not, in many regards I think that was them trying to emulate other games as well. You get your Gears of War, massively successful franchise, and over the top gore and brutality. You get the UC success but wish to try and carve out your own spin on UC and hey, presto, you have the TR reboot trying to take from UC but one up it with the Gears of War violence UC doesn't have. Change GoW for any other game that is visceral, lauded as "realistic" violence and rated 18.

I mean that is completely my 2 cents, but knowing how game businesses work, especially when trying to become relevant again, they often mix and match from other successful franchises and try to throw it all at the wall and see what sticks.

Personally I loved the TR reboot and the violence didn't bother me, but hey, on individual taste fronts I have no issues with gore and in film, I love horror movies. I know others don't though, and therefore I fully understand why many fans criticized the shit out of the reboot after not having all this violence as graphical in the previous games. As the poster above has GIFed TR has always had violence, but yeah, the reboot took it to the oh hey there is brain parts level of gore.

I don't quite understand though why a character who used to be even more sexualized and one dimension, that has actually gotten better, is now under the microscope for "grunt noises" because after losing the "big tits" criticism what else do we have? I mean I'm being facetious there, but my point overall supplemented with all my views prior is are we really at the point where people cannot control their urge to sexualize moans and groans? Hence why I'd throw Tennis carelessly into the debate to if I'm completely honest say how on earth do some of you watch a Tennis match without muting your TV in disgust?!!? You can at least for audible noises from climbing/jumping/etc and violence shown as hey, a shotgun really does do that to someone, accept these are in varying ways, realistic. Big tits for big tits is harder to sell as realistic because let us face it, the marketing and reason for them was teenage boys. I covered this earlier in the topic, yes, shock horror, some women have huge breasts. However when you looked at why the reasons a videogame character, completely fictional had them, it wasn't just because "hey guys, biology is a thing".

At the end of the day though discourse of all sorts is good, and the best developers take viewpoints from as many people as they can. Living in a echo chamber never really improves anything. For better or worse I just felt like contributing my thoughts to this debate, as there are times where I think well intentioned people end up eating themselves when they try to use Lara to over politicise what is a fairly benign game all things considered. Especially as it has tried to dump it's shackles of this is polygon boobs for teenage boys, and IMO has done fairly well at doing that. The character, Lara, will always have the legacy, but there is no point in living in the past as a gamer for the sake of it, or to constantly regurgitate an argument. We are where we are now, this Lara is not the Lara of the PS1 days.

 

[Kal-El814]

As I recall Uncharted 2 opened with Drake in pretty bad shape. He wasn't bouncing around like some invulnerable action dude. He was slowly lumbering around in pain. I'll take more human characters any day over invincible action heroes.

It's telling that people keep referring to that one scene in Uncharted 2 as the example of a male character struggling. Tomb Raider has managed to stretch this out over the the two most recent games.

 

[Arklite]

Can't deny there's a lot of issues with CD's current handling of TR's characters, but ultimately I feel Lara's character has suffered more on becoming a boring hero rather than an ineffectual one, particularly with RotTR. It's in that sense that I feel she has regressed as a compelling role model.

Old Lara on the other hand was twice the video game action heroin. A larger than life character with wit and pure confidence that inspired and entertained. CD can still turn it around, Lara's character is still developing (too slowly), though I can't say I have much confidence in the current writer.

 

[staticneuron]

Really? I always found the games had violent and creative deaths.

The deaths are not exactly gory and visceral. It is a difference between depictions. There are alot of creative deaths in video games but TR reboot....is on a different level

It's telling that people keep referring to that one scene in Uncharted 2 as the example of a male character struggling. Tomb Raider has managed to stretch this out over the the two most recent games.

It is not that only scene. If you ever played the Uncharted series he grunts, takes falls, moans, lets out exhausted exasperated gasps and makes quips in all of them. Unless you are being very selective or never played the games then you would know this. I am not sure if anyone is bored enough to make a compilation vid out of all of the instances in the game though.

 

[Trup1aya]

It's telling that people keep referring to that one scene in Uncharted 2 as the example of a male character struggling. Tomb Raider has managed to stretch this out over the the two most recent games.

But what exactly is the problem? TR has put Lara into situations that anyone would struggle in, male/female.

So, 1) is it sexist to depict a female overcoming difficult tasks through much effort?

2) Or is is sexist to decide not to depict females in such situations, simply because they are female?

I'd say the second one would be the true offense.

Or is the problem that male characters are more often seen in similar situations, but find success with less effort? Perhaps other franchises should look at how impervious male protagonists are depicted to be.

 

[Kamina]

I dont k ow about you guys, but if I had to endure Lara's hardships of RoTR, i would probably moan too all the time. Deeper voice of course, but the otherwise very similar.

 

[staticneuron]

I don't quite understand though why a character who used to be even more sexualized and one dimension, that has actually gotten better, is now under the microscope for "grunt noises" because after losing the "big tits" criticism what else do we have? I mean I'm being facetious there, but my point overall supplemented with all my views prior is are we really at the point where people cannot control their urge to sexualize moans and groans? Hence why I'd throw Tennis carelessly into the debate to if I'm completely honest say how on earth do some of you watch a Tennis match without muting your TV in disgust?!!? You can at least for audible noises from climbing/jumping/etc and violence shown as hey, a shotgun really does do that to someone, accept these are in varying ways, realistic. Big tits for big tits is harder to sell as realistic because let us face it, the marketing and reason for them was teenage boys. I covered this earlier in the topic, yes, shock horror, some women have huge breasts. However when you looked at why the reasons a videogame character, completely fictional had them, it wasn't just because "hey guys, biology is a thing".

I understand what you mean. Funny thing about the Tennis noises when.... Wimbledon official tells women players their grunts are spoiling tennis


I actually remember hearing this complaint before.

 

[Audioboxer]

But what exactly is the problem. TR has put Lara into situations that anyone would struggle in, male/female.

So, 1) is it sexist to depict a female overcoming difficult tasks through much effort?

2) Or is is sexist to decide not to depict females in such situations, simply because they are female?

I'd say the second one would be the true offense.

Or is the problem that male characters are more often seen in similar situations, but find success with less effort? Perhaps other franchises should look at how invulnerable male protagonists are depicted to be.

To lower the tone of the discourse, if we really look at it, ALL, or almost all videogame characters actually are invulnerable These companies and publishers ain't going to make 20 numbers in the franchise if these main characters actually were vulnerable, and actually suffered death/loss of limb/etc. They try to create an illusion of being fragile, of just making that last jump, of being saved by an NPC, but really we require our brains to trick our senses into believing it. We pretty much know how the game is going to end before even starting, regardless of what happens along the way...

In order to try and salvage me being a bit snarky with that remark/train of thought, it is possibly one reason why I say for the most part looking to movies and film instead of games for inspiration is usually more fruitful. By nature many of these gaming franchises are forever shackled to the need to suspend reality far more than would be needed in the accompanying film, or as above, you have main characters that you want to be as dimensional as an actor, but they never can be. Some of the greatest movies and TV shows, even those with multiple entries, have convincing death, loss and fragility. Games as an interactive medium struggle with such things as is, let alone when we start discussing the main protagonists for the very nature of being needed to sell copies in a franchise, are understandably invulnerable. Any vulnerability shown is really just an illusion...

Now of course this doesn't need to be the case for every game, as shockingly we do sometimes get games that are one offs, or aren't planned as a 30 game franchise. TR however, let alone UC, are part of the other parcel though where the characters really are invulnerable. UC4 spoiler

Spoiler

Even as it finished, Drake "lived happily ever after". Many EXPECTED the death, and as it turned out ND actually done the happily ever after amazingly well, but yeah. Massive protagonists are handled with care.

It's why while being overly sexual with Lara was pretty damn sketchy, and in many regards pretty sexist, the older Lara in those regards has pretty much been wiped out. Looking at her now though and over-expecting a massively dimensional movie star is where I think the above needs to at least be considered by some folks. As I really don't think Lara is ever going to reach your expectations, and mostly I don't think that is due to sexism or bad writing, but just the nature of her being a vehicle of a franchise and being "invulnerable".

I understand what you mean. Funny thing about the Tennis noises when.... Wimbledon official tells women players their grunts are spoiling tennis


I actually remember hearing this complaint before.

I did hit on that a bit, as I'm willing to admit without a doubt I think some of it is overdone. That however IMO is done to try and gain a competitive advantage and appear dominant/strong/a threat to the opponent. Not because the Tennis stars are purposely trying to appeal to overly stimulated young teenagers. The point is there are nuanced ways to look at such things without it always having to be for some sinister reason. Without a doubt there is merit in audible exertion from strenuous tasks. There just is. Whether at times the devs have it balanced finely we can debate, but I seriously doubt it is simply because they want to sexualize Lara through audio. That to me is more coming from the eye of the beholder, or should I say the ears of the beholder Rather than just being laughed at if it is a bit overdone at times. Or as I said a while back, the game thinks a 1m drop off a rock deserves to be a cue for the loudest "UGHHHHHH!". No, actors wouldn't do that in a serious action film, but this is a video game... For better or worse, it is, and our medium has many issues when we compare it to real life acting.

 

[Garlador]

The deaths are not exactly gory and visceral. It is a difference between depictions. There are alot of creative deaths in video games but TR reboot....is on a different level

It is more visceral and earns its M-rating...

But I still remember vividly those scenes as a kid of Lara being impaled by spikes, sputtering blood as her limp and lifeless body slides slowly down the blades, or the sickening snap of her neck and broken bones when I missed a jump and splatted on the ground, or getting run through by a spear-chucking tribesman...

But it's like comparing Mortal Kombat's early fatalities to the stuff they get away with now. It's definitely raised the bar and gone far more graphic.

 

[Kal-El814]

It is not that only scene. If you ever played the Uncharted series he grunts, takes falls, moans, lets out exhausted exasperated gasps and makes quips in all of them. Unless you are being very selective or never played the games then you would know this. I am not sure if anyone is bored enough to make a compilation vid out of all of the instances in the game though.

Of course it's not literally the only scene, but that's missing the forest for the trees. It's the main example that people bring up because most of Nate's physical struggles are fleeting and there's no need to establish his bona fides. Even in Uncharted 3 and 4, kid Nate is a nasty climber. Yet grown ass Lara Croft needs an entire game to establish that she's good at tomb raiding in the reboot.

But what exactly is the problem? TR has put Lara into situations that anyone would struggle in, male/female.

So, 1) is it sexist to depict a female overcoming difficult tasks through much effort?

2) Or is is sexist to decide not to depict females in such situations, simply because they are female?

I'd say the second one would be the true offense.

Or is the problem that male characters are more often seen in similar situations, but find success with less effort? Perhaps other franchises should look at how invulnerable male protagonists are depicted to be.

A couple things...

It's not inherently sexist to show a female character struggling to overcome difficult obstacles. How that is portrayed could be problematic, of course.

The issue is with the apparent need to show why/how someone got good at something objectively impossible, and how that "arc" is written. Drake was always rad at jumping and climbing, the Prince of Persia needs to explanation for why his tendons defy the laws of physics, Crane in Dying Light doesn't need any backstory for why he's a parkour champion / gladiator / marksman.

But reboot Lara apparently needs explanations for everything she does. Which COULD be fine, if the story was tight. But it's not. It's lazy, "let's put this character through a meat grinder," nonsense, as if what she goes through would inspire anything in her other than PTSD.

 

[Audioboxer]

Of course it's not literally the only scene, but that's missing the forest for the trees. It's the main example that people bring up because most of Nate's physical struggles are fleeting and there's no need to establish his bona fides. Even in Uncharted 3 and 4, kid Nate is a nasty climber. Yet grown ass Lara Croft needs an entire game to establish that she's good at tomb raiding in the reboot.



A couple things...

It's not inherently sexist to show a female character struggling to overcome difficult obstacles. How that is portrayed could be problematic, of course.

The issue is with the apparent need to show why/how someone got good at something objectively impossible, and how that "arc" is written. Drake was always rad at jumping and climbing, the Prince of Persia needs to explanation for why his tendons defy the laws of physics, Crane in Dying Light doesn't need any backstory for why he's a parkour champion / gladiator / marksman.

But reboot Lara apparently needs explanations for everything she does. Which COULD be fine, if the story was tight. But it's not. It's lazy, "let's put this character through a meat grinder," nonsense, as if what she goes through would inspire anything in her other than PTSD.

Well to be fair, TR and UC do not come from the same developer. 1:1 comparisons would probably be more applicable if ND done TR and UC and people were starting to say, eh, ND, why is Lara in the same situations as Nate but you are vastly differing in your writing?

Fact of the matter is different people write differently. It's as simple as the TR devs probably thought they were being smart, and multi-dimensional, and while I think they fall pretty flat in their attempts as I said very early on you have to wise about jumping instantly to the sinister "these devs are doing this because reason x". They have cleaned up the character a lot from her early days, and overall when you look at the whole package they seemingly have put a lot of care and effort into these two TR games. Gameplay wise for example they are ace!

Now sure, writing may not be the best, and we should criticise it in order to pass on feedback, but to say one last time take your time as an individual to truly think something through before jumping to the worst scenario possible. Not only do you potentially slander and drag innocent people through the mud, you can just be... wrong? I mean we can all be wrong, and are many times over, but in this case with Lara and TR how it currently stands I feel there is more than enough evidence to at least bat away some of the most nitpicking shouts at "oppression/sexism". Such as audible grunts, and the trope of being saved by hand grabbing. There is tons of that across all genres/both genders in gaming, so unless you want to swing that same bat equally, it begins to look like agenda pushing rather than a genuinely nuanced argument about something that may well be a social issue. Or maybe yeah, genuine ignorance if you don't play a lot of games. Just at least try to accept some things just are because there is good enough reason for them to be, and not everything brought into question has to be because of some asshole developers being crude/insensitive/dumb.

I mean I can understand in today's society why magnifying glasses are out constantly. Thanks largely to social media we are far more aware of the dregs of society treating sexes, minorities and others poorly. However that doesn't always translate to everything in life, especially when we start discussing the make believe, videogames. Some shit in games is just because games are games and AI is AI. Other stuff yeah, it's because story writing in gaming can be pretty terrible at times and/or devs genuinely struggle to cope with doing gameplay in a serious narrative. I don't think it is any surprise some writers when they tell us they are doing a serious game, end up with some David Cage affair where they end up trying to make a movie of a game. Over time I think the medium will continue to mature and get better. Like movies and TV shows though there are always going to be "adult" games with what is otherwise senseless violence, or depictions of nudity/sex, and for the most part while we can criticise we should largely ignore if not our tastes, not senselessly shame people. Adult content can exist without everything needing to be PG-13 and a whimsical fantasy story, rather than a gory horror.

To conclude what is most certainly a huge sticking point in gaming just now is honesty. Gamers are really fucking fed up with writers/developers who try to play some card, and then it turns out to be a bait and switch or total nonsense. I do think Kojima with Quiet really brought an incoming shitstorm with his "deeds" PR line nonsense. On the other hand though when you get something like The Witcher 3, you have honesty about the content being rather crude and gratuitous simply because the devs thought it fitted in. With them specifically they have never been that wrong, considering a lot of the narrative is based on Geralt from the books. The books are material already written that they have worked from. I think the bigger point there is honesty is always going to serve you better than trying to sheepishly trick gamers, or force your game upon people who otherwise wouldn't have bought it if they knew it had tons of violence/sex/nudity/etc and that wasn't their tastes.

 

[ActWan]

Lol what?

What do you think motivated the player to keep Lara alive? For me it was the desire to progress through the game and finish it... The EXACT same motivation I have to keep any other protagonist alive... Staying alive is usaully a requirement in any game.

Like I said that developers comments were regrettable, but Lara's depiction in the game did not actually have the effect that he described.

I can't ignore the irony of people who do not like the rebooted Lara, taking these efforts to protect and defend her, when is clearly a powerful, independent human being who certainly doesn't settle with being a victim.

I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about their intenion. I don't agree that they are regrettable, I actually believe that was what they tried to do. There are some really long and detailed comments on this thread that show how Lara's depiction in the game DID actually have the effect he described (or at least, tried too)
All I see from his quotes are conclusive evidence that the OP does have a huge point, and people are just ignoring these quotes. (and as I said, I'm just a neutral passing by and pointing out something that I think doesn't get enough attention in this discussion and should get, it's pretty big. I didn't play those games nor am I going to)

 

[Messofanego]

We are where we are now, this Lara is not the Lara of the PS1 days.

Which is a shame, because nu-Lara is not interesting as a character. I'd prefer if we kept the character model of Lara we have now but have the character of original Lara. Nu-Lara is just too inconsistently characterised to be worth rooting for. Crystal Dynamics has a problem that they try to make the new games gritty while maintaining the pulpy ridiculous stunts and setpieces that don't jive with what realistically Lara should be able to take and walk away from.

Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison, imo.

 

[T.O.P]

I dont k ow about you guys, but if I had to endure Lara's hardships of RoTR, i would probably moan too all the time. Deeper voice of course, but the otherwise very similar.

Pretty much, I don't get it

 

[Haganeren]

It's not the hidden message it conveys. It's the message that you are CHOOSING to project. You can look at the situation and interpret it as Lara being weaker than her companion, but that runs counter to what we see Lara actually accomplish during the scene and throughout the rest of the games. Your interpretation is convienent because in gaming there is a tendency to portray women this way. But this franchise does not do that.

Fair enough, i can accept that argument.

Indeed nothing proves that this scene convey that hidden message to others peoples than myself. But it's also impossible to prove that that message isn't conveyed either, and since it's what i percieve, i will still have that opinion about that game.

Personally, i like "weak" heroes as i said earlier, so i don't mind that much, but that also mean i'm extra careful to that kind of detail. (Who's the "weak" one, whos the "master", who's need others to triumph over things) And it seems that nearly everytime a female lead is introduced, she will need more her comrade than a male one. Especially on AAA games. (japanese games can be a little different sometime since they don't fear stuff like "power of friendship" but they aren't different THAT often either...)

... Which means i generally like female heroes better on western games ah ah.

Had Lara been Larry instead, I presume you and anyone else would have simply noted that the main character got the lions share of the animators attention. However, when a woman is involved, for whatever reason, it's not enough to not only avoid sexist depictions, but also work extra hard on areas of the game that would normally be ignored similply so that people will not derive an interpretation that is sexist.

Nah, i really don't think so, we would think Lara is a badass and that NPC is a weak man. This argument about NPC having less focus from the developpers makes no sense for the common player anyway.

I feel like this "controversy" is an excellent opportunity to discuss how action hero are depicted to be impervious. Lara's visual and audio performance is one of strength and triumph over grueling obstacles rather than the typical, "I make everything look easy" we see in similar games. That a female lead is one of the first to take that approach is refreshing...

Now if only the writing was good.

On this point i totally agree with you, i would prefer having more "weak" male heroes than having "more" badass female heroes. It would make a greater diversity.

 

[Lime]

Take Rhianna Pratchett off and bring in Cara Ellison, imo.

Damn, that's a pretty good thread, I'm sad that I missed it. I wonder if Cara Ellison did some similar commentary on Rise of the Tomb Raider?

 

[staticneuron]

It is more visceral and earns its M-rating...

But I still remember vividly those scenes as a kid of Lara being impaled by spikes, sputtering blood as her limp and lifeless body slides slowly down the blades, or the sickening snap of her neck and broken bones when I missed a jump and splatted on the ground, or getting run through by a spear-chucking tribesman...

But it's like comparing Mortal Kombat's early fatalities to the stuff they get away with now. It's definitely raised the bar and gone far more graphic.

I guess, but the TR in between had such death scenes? Not from what I remember. They were impactful in legends and anniversary but not "Gory". IIRC MK was always gory on purpose, even in sprite form.

Of course it's not literally the only scene, but that's missing the forest for the trees. It's the main example that people bring up because most of Nate's physical struggles are fleeting and there's no need to establish his bona fides. Even in Uncharted 3 and 4, kid Nate is a nasty climber. Yet grown ass Lara Croft needs an entire game to establish that she's good at tomb raiding in the reboot.

That is a really broad stroke. In the first game she was scene as more of a survivor but uninterested in "raiding" tombs, in the second she seemed to pick it up only as something to prove (Wow, my father wasn't crazy) not a vested interest in raiding tombs. So this is story based, unlike Drake that has been doing it since youth, the new Tomb Raiders are an origin story. This is one of the reasons why the comparison is not valid.

Nate's physical struggles are never fleeting. They are appropriate. He never does anything superhuman (other than luck and moving around while injured just like Lara), they try to ground them in the fact that they are struggling when doing the crazier climbs and jumps in both games imo. What hammers this point down is that "kid" nate (the youngest incarnation) cannot make jumps he does when a few years older (as depicted in UC3) needs help, and has a lot more fear.

 

[General Lee]

I felt like the old games didn't actually have anything particularly sexist about them if you don't count the boob slider excuse and some of the marketing that was external and not very representative of what the games were about. Lara had very limited characterization in those games, and she was mostly just an aristocrat thrill seeker, and I don't remember any particular point in any of the early games that had anything to do with Lara as a woman. The main issue people have had is with the marketing that made her the "video gaming sex symbol", but none of that is anywhere to be found in the games. They're just 3D puzzle platformers.

The new games have done an alright job in designing new Lara, though overall the characters in TR and ROTTR have been fairly thin and stereotypical outside Lara. And of course there's the dissonance between her inexperience and survival situations, and the massive killing sprees that happen in between. Trying to balance the survival, combat and Lara as a believable character doesn't work very well, and in that sense it would be easier if they went either a bit more arcadey and less realistic portrayal, or tone down the swarms of mercenaries she has to kill. It's pretty clear though, that the new Tomb Raider games are TPS first, and anything else is purely secondary. Shooting swarms of grunts is what Lara Croft is about these days, and it's pretty sad that this is what sells rather than clever puzzles and exploring.

 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Allison Carroll was the best Lara IMO. But it's odd in the sense that some of the external material using her directly was pretty sexualized, but in the game the focus was on her gymnastic ability more than anything else.

 

[DanielJr82]

I'll take the vulnerable badass Lara Croft over someone like the invulnerable MarySue protagonist of the new Stars Wars.

 

[nel e nel]

The problem isn't Lara's characterization, it's that there is an extreme dearth of female protagonists in gaming period. So the burden of representing all varieties of femininity fall - unfairly - on Lara's shoulders, and she is scrutinized much more acutely than her male counterparts.

 

[Calverz]

I was waiting until I played through the game before giving my opinion on this, add a few years due to perma ban, and coming back I can now finally say this.....

I AGREE OP.
I want the old badass Lara back. i dont understand why we need deep backstories for characters these days. Like do we need to know why Mario is a plumber? Did he complete an apprenticeship with his brother luigi? I really didn't like the Lara CD created for the reboot to the point where I just stopped playing Rise of the Tomb Raider. This might also be unpopular but I'm not a fan of the voice actress either. Very whiny.

What now for the Tomb Raider franchise? Another reboot? Potential a remake in this age of continual remakes/remasters? Let the series die?

Who knows.....

 

[anothertech]

Rise from your grave!!!

Also, the main problem was we expected real Laura to come back after weak Laura in the first reboot.

They went, a different direction. Which is really too bad. Could have been an amazing trilogy. But they fcked it up.

 

[Vildiil]

Thought I was on Era for a minute until I saw the thread post date.

 

[cormack12]

Wasn't OP found to be a massive troll

 

[brap]

Imagine actually bumping this thread

 

[Vawn]

Man old GAF was a horrible place. Shudders.

 

[cerealbuster]

I just want to give my honest opinion about the new TR series, as someone who only played Anniversary, after playing 2013 and rising. The new games were my favourite 3rd Person shooters. Like I always loved Uncharted and played them all except 4, just because it was always "let's take some mythology etc. and make it real". I loved that, but TR2013 was more like "let's make a great action game and add lore into it" and that was great. I even felt the "surivial" aspect, because each death of lara really disgusted/scared me and I didn't wanted to see that again so I tried to be a alive. RotTR made the Gameplay even better, but we had lesser cinematic action and kinda less survival. But damn those were nice, also the logs etc.

But Shadow, Shadow I really hate Eidos and CD for ruining shadow. I was prepared to fight the whole Trinity thing and in the end I fought against a adopted kid, who were afraid his origin village would be invaded. There was no link to the previous stuff that happened, nothing. A Southamerican dude, who was the leader of an illuminati-clan with origins in england that killed laras dad, because he was afraid people would invade his small little village. Everything regarding lara was nonsensical too, no supernatural enemies just some caveman. The graphics were great, but everything else was shit. And I will never forgive them for that.

 

[TexMex]

Thank you for the follow up.

 

[INC]

I preferred the reboot

 

[Kikorin]

To me Lara Croft was the female equivalent of badass characters from 80s/90s movies like Van Damme, Schwarzenegger or Duke Nukem to mention someone from videogames, or Sarah Connor to give a female example.

I loved her as a character and I played Tomb Raider 1, 2 and 3 so much as a kid on my PS1. The new version is more realistic I guess, but as I enjoyed the first game, I got bored fast with the second one and I've still to finish it. Really not as memorable as the badass Lara IMHO.

 

[Amiga]

a game should just be fun. "representation" drama is stupid. maybe just avoid stereotypes and that's it.

 

[AceofJakes]

Lara was a whining, self centered and selfish women at the beginning at the reboot. She is in a constant state of self pity because she thinks it's her fault and if anyone offers help they are immediately pushed away with the thought of "I have to do this alone because reasons"

I expected them to maybe move on from that personality but nope.

And for the love of God don't get me started on the story.

 

[bhunachicken]

And for the love of God don't get me started on the story.

Because of the massive amounts of lesbian subtext?

 

[ShaikhCroft]

I was waiting until I played through the game before giving my opinion on this, add a few years due to perma ban, and coming back I can now finally say this.....

I AGREE OP.
I want the old badass Lara back. i dont understand why we need deep backstories for characters these days. Like do we need to know why Mario is a plumber? Did he complete an apprenticeship with his brother luigi? I really didn't like the Lara CD created for the reboot to the point where I just stopped playing Rise of the Tomb Raider. This might also be unpopular but I'm not a fan of the voice actress either. Very whiny.

What now for the Tomb Raider franchise? Another reboot? Potential a remake in this age of continual remakes/remasters? Let the series die?

Who knows.....

Definitely not another reboot! We will see the proper Shadow sequel with a new storyline. Hopefully Lara will be more mature!

 

[#Phonepunk#]

The graphics were great, but everything else was shit.

agree. that third game had some beautiful tombs tho!

i admit i was entirely skipping cutscenes 10min into this game.

the reboot series just had no character. og Lara was sexy but that came with confidence too. new Lara is always "becoming", it is always some grand journey the writers are trying to justify. Trinity was just a faceless terrorist group, so generic, like you could drop them into a random Mission Impossible movie and it would work. i remember the villains from the og game, they were unique characters, like you could imagine them going off on adventures of their own. not these goons.

i also really didn't like the "you will want to protect Lara" themes from the first game. it's like, lol, great way to write a strong female character. i did appreciate that they toned down the violence and upped exploration in the latter games. but she was a terrible character.

the games were great games tho. second one i thought would "just be all white snow" but ended up really beautiful and often v colorful. third one was a very HD version of the South American tombs from the very first game. they did it great.

but agree, story was garbage.

 

[Happosai]

Wasn't OP found to be a massive troll

After seeing the thread date my thoughts were: who bumped this?! Now that I've read through this my opinion is...if we need to bring back the old Lara Croft...then we need to bring back the old Gex and the old Soul Reaver. Wait! Those guys are gone?!

 

[anothertech]

Tbh, just bring back the strong Laura. And the dual pistols.

This reboot really accomplished nothing but making the character worse.

 

[TLZ]

Also, the main problem was we expected real Laura to come back after weak Laura in the first reboot.

Tbh, just bring back the strong Laura. And the dual pistols.

Lara.

 

[BRZBlue]

To me Lara Croft was the female equivalent of badass characters from 80s/90s movies like Van Damme, Schwarzenegger or Duke Nukem to mention someone from videogames, or Sarah Connor to give a female example.

I loved her as a character and I played Tomb Raider 1, 2 and 3 so much as a kid on my PS1. The new version is more realistic I guess, but as I enjoyed the first game, I got bored fast with the second one and I've still to finish it. Really not as memorable as the badass Lara IMHO.

See, it was always the opposite for me. I played the originals in spite of her, she felt like a holdover from the 80's without any of the character. She was sort of the female action-game version of the "nothing personal kid" type.

Then again, the older games were dated and they had much more sparse storytelling, but they were also older games.

I don't really regard the reboot as better or worse, but she certainly lost that corny insufferable 80's "badass" feel.

 

[PlayerPurple]

Seeing how Crystal Dynamics’ (2nd) reboot Lara turned out makes me all the more appreciative of Naughty Dog’s work on Chloe Frazer.

She’s easily the best version of Lara Croft there’s ever been.

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

Lara.

 

[Riven326]

I don't think Camilla Luddington's breathy performance as Lara is reason to decry it as anti feminist tbh. She doesn't run around making quips like Nathan Drake but I don't think she's ridiculous in the other direction. She falls firmly in the middle.

I would also agree with the above post in that Lara is not "weak" or "vulnerable" at any point in Rise, really. If anything she has just become a stock video game character that gets the job done. I still don't quite understand why people criticize these games so much for their characterization and writing when they are very standard AAA fare.

Would I like Lara to be completely confident and self-assured and, perhaps more in line with this thread, "in control" of the situation like she was in the old games? Certainly, but I don't think her portrayal or her actions in the two games we have so far are a step back in anyway. Just a sidestep character-wise and an entire marathon forward presentationally.

That's the problem. Standard AAA games are shit when compared to the great ones. Lara Croft, much like the Tomb Raider games themselves, feel like a lesser version of the Uncharted games in every conceivable way. They aren't bad. They're just kind of mediocre. Lara Croft had no characterization. The supporting cast was boring and most of them were gone in second and third games.

It's just lame. It's lame because it could have been better. Imagine a TR game that has dialogue choices and real characters, including Lara. You shape her personality as you play and it transfers from one game to the next. That was my vision for the next set of Tomb Raider games. What we got instead were three bog standard AAA titles that really didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. They're not going to be remembered like Uncharted or the older Tomb Raider games will be.

 

[anothertech]

Lara.

Autocorrect bro

 

[Freeman]

Never cared about this reboot, turned a unique franchise into a poor man's Uncharted.

 

[KyoZz]

Just here to say that Shadow of the Tomb Raider is the best game of the new trilogy, which in itself is not a crazy goal to achieve. You can argue, but...

 

[jadefire66]

I don't mind her new design too much but she has 0 personality or charisma in the Square Enix trilogy. She thinks, talks and acts like a Mary Sue. So insufferable. These writers can't write a decent character if their life depended on it. Now that I think about it, pretty much every character in the whole trilogy is insufferable, nothing redeeming about any of them. They tried to rip off the Uncharted series in every aspect, but it's the characters that suffer the most. Uncharted characters had charm, TR characters have no charm at all.