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I feel like the 'new' Lara Croft / Tomb Raider is a setback for female representation

There's a difference between "social graces" and "feminine charm" and yes, a female character written by probably straight men who uses her "feminine charms" (read: breasts) to get places, when played straight, should raise eyebrows.

You don't see Nathan Drake attending events in a low cut suit, baring his chest full of hair, which he then literally rips apart to allow him to move properly during action sequences and in the process reveals his upper thighs and abs.

Is this some fantasy of yours? And the point is male characters do do that, except the equivalent of a low cut dress is a well tailored suit
 
Yep, the two games are really well made, but the writing and characters are baaaaaaaad.

Within video game terms, I don't think it's bad, just painfully average to mediocre, but the worst part is I ultimately end up not caring about any of the characters and I never really experience any attachment or a real character arc from Lara. Because of this, the vulnerability doesn't add anything, so instead she just becomes a stock action character who screams and moans in a very good designed third person action game. LOL
 

injurai

Banned
I agree with this too. 90s Lara was what was considered sexy by their target audience in the 90s. Modern Lara is what's considered sexy by their target audience now. There is no progress in her depiction. She's still designed with a male gaze and is objectified.

While a valid consideration, I do think the moving goal posts angle presents the pitfall of subjective disingenuity when offering criticism of her design that must be carefully navigated. Until a female character is designed to be of disinterest to nearly all the male population you will always find it possible to construe the argument that reduces her character to being the exploiting the male gaze.
 
Is this some fantasy of yours? And the point is male characters do do that, except the equivalent of a low cut dress is a well tailored suit

?

I am pointing out how that would be the male equivalent of Lara "using her feminine charms" if we base it off how that was done in the older games.

And no they don't, Nathan Drake has not once had to bare everything below the waist except his underwear for an action sequence.
 
but the game has a much more realistic tone than Uncharted. Lara isn't like Nate, and she doesn't just shrug this stuff off. You could say that making her more "grounded" may have been to make her more vulnerable but I don't think I would agree. It fits the story tonally and it affects all of the surrounding characters in the same way.
We talking about the same Lara who gets rebar stuck through her and climbs a mountain in a tank top later that day?
 
Vulnerability does not equal weakness. Taking a stereotypically badass, superhuman heroine and making her vulnerable and human - and treating her adventure as something that actually takes a toll on her, something she has to struggle to endure and ultimately overcome - is perhaps the biggest thing that makes her a stronger character than she used to be. (This is a larger discussion, but the notion of "strong female character" is often taken in the wrong way; you do not need to be a perfect, faultless specimen to be a "strong" character.)

Re: that video, she is a lot "gaspier" than characters like Nathan Drake, but it really does seem like it's a conscious decision not to make her appear weaker, but to make her appear more human, like she's an actual person going through these things. If she's just climbed up a frigging mountain, she's going to be breathing heavily for a little while. But yeah, whoever that dev was that made the "protect her" comment really did kind of kneecap the series a bit. Looking at the way it's written, I really don't think that is the intention with the overall direction of the character, but it's easy to see why it's painted the reboot series in an unfortunate light for some. (And, for all we know, maybe the suits really do view the game in that way. Hell, it's likely the case.)

Also unfortunate: Outside of Lara's characterization, the writing in the reboot series is... not as strong as it could be. They made Lara a better character, but she could potentially be a great character if they gave her a compelling story for her to lead.

But I can understand where you're coming from, and I absolutely don't assume to know what the hell I'm talking about.
 

LordRaptor

Member
You're projecting a narrow, male-centric, "expected" view of what a "badass hero" needs to be. And I respectfully disagree.

She's a real attempt - attempt mind you, always room for improvement - to show depth to a person going through immense trauma and having to adapt who they are to survive.

It's also a video game, so ya know, killing.
But what you see as "weak," is actually the groundwork for a more nuanced persona.

They did a great job making her contemporary, considering her roots, and the need to contrast her to plenty of current male heroes.

The inherent problem here is that a female hero somehow needs to have a backstory setup to justify how a little woman could possibly become a bad ass action hero, where male action heros literally never do.

It's not like you have to play through prologues of buff hero dudes school days being bullied for being overweight and inspiring them to weight train and gaining an attitude where they feel the need to protect weaker people against bullies to add 'nuance', is it?
Nope.
Buff dude, Gun. Kill the baddies. Tutorial over, bro
 
?

I am pointing out how that would be the male equivalent of Lara "using her feminine charms" if we base it off how that was done in the older games.

And no they don't, Nathan Drake has not once had to bare everything below the waist except his underwear for an action sequence.

Neither has Lara...I don't understand why people always try to apply these situations 1:1 when formal attire is different from each gender. A dress showing legs isn't unusual at all, while no male formal attire shows any. Yeah the whole "rip the dress for extra mobility" thing is tired, but you can't just apply the exact same situation to a male character and call it a day. The male equivalent would be like taking off a suit jacket, unfastening their tie, rolling up their sleeves. That sort of thing
 

Salty Hippo

Member
I find her incredibly boring. I hate the modern Tomb Raider games, and I completely despise the new Lara that Crystal Dynamics created.

I'm not even a fan of the original Lara or the older games in general. However, I can at least appreciate what those games were trying to do. The recent Tomb Raider games are easily the most generic modern video games in this industry. Absolutely nothing special or interesting about them.

Holy fuck, the hyperbolic nonsense around the modern Tomb Raider games seriously needs to stop. It's crossing every line of subjectivity into straight up bullshit at this point.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
For good or bad, original Lara is a pretty empty character. She's aloof and detached, and any altruism she did were more circumstantial than purposeful. The later games tried to give her some character with the backstory and the whole Von Croy thing, but it never really went anywhere.
I think in the original CD reboot, they gave her a team to work with so she could interact with others like a well adjusted non sociopath would. Its not very deep either, but I did feel like Lara had at least some vested interest in what she was doing other than herself.

The 2013 game, I never really bought into the whole sexual moaning thing, I think people got out of that what they wanted to. Beyond that, the switch between timid survivor to gritty killer was too fast and too extreme to be completely believable. Her friends are pretty terrible.
I liked Lara in RotTR since she came across as believable in the game's context. She's a bit tunnel visioned and slightly unhinged, struggles to do the correct thing at times. There's also not the huge shift in attitude thats so extreme.
 

jdstorm

Banned
I haven't played Rise yet but I knew I wasn't gonna escape Lara's constant sex moans and grunts.

I would like to take this opportunity however to state that Rihanna Pratchett is an atrocious writer. Just because a female writer is writing female characters doesn't make them good. Faith was basically not even a character in ME and Lara has her issues too.

It blows my mind that people think this. It's like we played completely different games
 

Vlaphor

Member
I'll just copy myself from a previous thread...

I honestly don't think that NuLara from ROTR is a positive female character. You might make the suggestion that NuLara from 2013 Tomb Raider was, and I can see that, but ROTR's protagonist is the whiniest and most depressing character I've ever seen in a game.

She doesn't want to be there, she doesn't want to be doing what she's doing, she hates every minute of it, and she will make sure you are aware of that. That does not sound like a strong/well written character, it just sounds like angst and anger were used as shorthand for good character motivation.

NuLara in this game is worst protagonist in any game ever. I will say that a million times over, since she is the first protagonist that was so terrible that I was skipping cutscenes just so I wouldn't have to deal with her constant whining and dislike of everything she was doing. Classic Lara had fun with what she was doing, and that fun transferred to the player. Classic Lara Croft for life.
 
Writing quality notwithstanding, I don't get the sense that the games make a special focus on her frailness - with, of course, the exception of the early parts of the first game. Afterwards, she pretty much stops completely with moanings and gasps of exhaustion, and almost everyone can't stop talking about how awesome she is. Even the one character who sacrifices himself to save her life (seriously, there's only one. The other two actually die when she's trying to save them) does so with an undertone of "I saved you because how awesome you are".

I haven't gotten far on Rise of the Tomb Raider, but from what I've played so far, I disagree that she remains the same character as she was in the first game. She immediately takes charge and initiative in every situation she's in and the only time she display a moment of fragility is when she's literally dying from hypothermia. I honestly can't imagine any character not doing the whole "shivering, arms clutched around the body" in the same situation except the larger-than-life ones like Bayonetta or Kratos.
 
Certainly a farcry from the Lara Croft we grew up with from the original trilogy. A stotic, ruthless vixen, if you will.

This version of Lara is quite whiny, which was excusable to a degree in the reboot, since it was introducing us to an inexperienced Lara. But now we're playing as a seasoned, weathered Lara who has seen some shit, yet she still comes across as vulnerable and inexperienced. Time to grow some thick skin, girl.

Part of this I feel is the VA who is quite lovely, but doesn't embody Lara Croft's demeanor
 

Ralemont

not me
I don't think her moans and gasps in Tomb Raider should be brought up unless we also bring up her yelling to henchmen that she'll kill all of them and having all the henchmen be "oh my god she killed everyone!" both in sneaking sections and in her process of killing everyone. She isn't overwhelmingly portrayed as weak in any fashion in TR2013. Shit, they even mimicked Martin Sheen's assassin-rising-from-the-river shot, except from a river of blood.

I don't care what the creators wanted the players to feel about Lara. Lara, as she is in TR2013, is a badass who can kill a whole lot of people gruesomely and in a very badass fashion, while also being subjected to a shitton of pain herself. As I played Lara, I didn't want to protect her. I felt I was her, killing these guys. Therefore, I feel the game's aim to both humanize and empower Lara worked.

But I also think it's worthwhile to point out the different points being grouped together in the OP. Criticizing what they were aiming for and criticizing the execution are mutually exclusive arguments. Nathan Drake's character would be a joke without Naughty Dog's writers, far worse than Pratchett's take on Croft. And Lara with Hennig would have been a much better-written character that might have received a better arc that would also have meshed better with the more gritty, humanizing feel they were going for in TR2013.

In conclusion, I agree the execution sucked but not the aim, and the aim is far more important when considering what we're telling game devs we want. I think Lara is a positive character for female representation in games and that the OP is far too narrow in her desires.
 

sk3

Banned
lol, so its a step back because she breathes too hard?

If anything, I appreciate the more realistic nature of her voice acting. If you're climbing mountains, running for your life, or stuck in the middle of a ice cold wasteland - you're going to be exerting yourself.
 

SCChappy

Banned
Does it really matter? None of this characters are pushing the medium.

Here's an idea for the developers:

Create a storyline where Lara Croft gets breast cancer.

IMAGINE THE DRAMA of a vulnerable Lara Croft, still persisting in her wordly adventures, despite her illness, it needs fleshing out, no pun intended, but I guratantee the gaming world will be shocked, STUNNED, and moved at the effort to make Lara Croft's character more meaningful.

i agree

im disappointed that other people dont recognize this
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
I played through most of TR2013 and I'm surprised I missed all these sex noises and whatnot. Maybe that's why I found the game so dull?
 

Dalibor68

Banned
I hate this idea that we can only have what some consider "strong female characters" where strong means ultrabrave, not fearing anything, completely independant etc. We can have all different kinds of characters, like the young, inexperienced newbie Lara in TR2013. I found her annoying but not because by some far stretch its somehow bad represantation but because it wasnt written well and went from crying to massacring 500 guys per minute in half an hour.

And even if this "female characters are more often 'not strong'" was true, which I can't say because I didn't count, that doesn't somehow mean we can on an individual level only have "strong" female characters until a certain quote has been reached where we can represent other types again.
 
Writing quality notwithstanding, I don't get the sense that the games make a special focus on her frailness - with, of course, the exception of the early parts of the first game. Afterwards, she pretty much stops completely with moanings and gasps of exhaustion, and almost everyone can't stop talking about how awesome she is. Even the one character who sacrifices himself to save her life (seriously, there's only one. The other two actually die when she's trying to save them) does so with an undertone of "I saved you because how awesome you are".

I haven't gotten far on Rise of the Tomb Raider, but from what I've played so far, I disagree that she remains the same character as she was in the first game. She immediately takes charge and initiative in every situation she's in and the only time she display a moment of fragility is when she's literally dying from hypothermia. I honestly can't imagine any character not doing the whole "shivering, arms clutched around the body" in the same situation except the larger-than-life ones like Bayonetta or Kratos.

Well even if you are dying and freezing you shouldn't whine and grunt and groan so much during physical exertion that makes you weak, I mean look at Drake....
 
lol, so its a step back because she breathes too hard?

If anything, I appreciate the more realistic nature of her voice acting. If you're climbing mountains, running for your life, or stuck in the middle of a ice cold wasteland - you're going to be exerting yourself.
This may be true but how many male protagonists moan as much as Lara does? That is the point.
 
Also unfortunate: Outside of Lara's characterization, the writing in the reboot series is... not as strong as it could be. They made Lara a better character, but she could potentially be a great character if they gave her a compelling story for her to lead.

This is pretty much where I stand. The problem lies not in the conceptual ingredients of the character but in how it is presented. I think that conceptually, NuLara is fine. A character should be able to occasionally display vulnerability without it automatically becomes a step back on empowerment. It's just that the 2013 game convey her characterizations in a really unsubtle manner, making her fragile moments obnoxious and many of he strong moments feel dishonest.

I don't think her moans and gasps in Tomb Raider should be brought up unless we also bring up her yelling to henchmen that she'll kill all of them and having all the henchmen be "oh my god she killed everyone!" both in sneaking sections and in her process of killing everyone.
I have to be honest. Even if I did recognize how bad and silly they are, I really love those parts of the game in a non-ironic way.
 

jg4xchamp

Member
I think the new character is just bland and poorly thought out. Her whole story arc in the reboot doesn't actually work given how few choices she is actually making. More product of circumstance type shit.

Old Lara had her sleezy moments but she was also confident, charming, and capable. Not to say I wouldn't prefer a more well rounded character, and one with more internal struggles. It's just old Lara fit her gameplay more. This one follows up moments of being vulnerable with lighting up her enemies like a Christmas tree.
 

Sanctuary

Member
I don't think her moans and gasps in Tomb Raider should be brought up unless we also bring up her yelling to henchmen that she'll kill all of them and having all the henchmen be "oh my god she killed everyone!" both in sneaking sections and in her process of killing everyone. She isn't overwhelmingly portrayed as weak in any fashion in TR2013. Shit, they even mimicked Martin Sheen's assassin-rising-from-the-river shot, except from a river of blood.

Maybe, but I always took that as a reference to this:

the-descent.16220.jpg
 

ResoRai

Member
Vulnerability does not equal weakness. Taking a stereotypically badass, superhuman heroine and making her vulnerable and human - and treating her adventure as something that actually takes a toll on her, something she has to struggle to endure and ultimately overcome - is perhaps the biggest thing that makes her a stronger character than she used to be. (This is a larger discussion, but the notion of "strong female character" is often taken in the wrong way; you do not need to be a perfect, faultless specimen to be a "strong" character.)

Re: that video, she is a lot "gaspier" than characters like Nathan Drake, but it really does seem like it's a conscious decision not to make her appear weaker, but to make her appear more human, like she's an actual person going through these things. If she's just climbed up a frigging mountain, she's going to be breathing heavily for a little while. But yeah, whoever that dev was that made the "protect her" comment really did kind of kneecap the series a bit. Looking at the way it's written, I really don't think that is the intention with the overall direction of the character, but it's easy to see why it's painted the reboot series in an unfortunate light for some. (And, for all we know, maybe the suits really do view the game in that way. Hell, it's likely the case.)

Also unfortunate: Outside of Lara's characterization, the writing in the reboot series is... not as strong as it could be. They made Lara a better character, but she could potentially be a great character if they gave her a compelling story for her to lead.

But I can understand where you're coming from, and I absolutely don't assume to know what the hell I'm talking about.

I agree with you, but I think people will just make of it what they want to. Not saying they refuse to look at it from a different perspective (though some may), but the impression they get from it will be the one they stick with.

I don't really think OP is right, but I think those videos do highlight an issue (being imo that she just gasp too much lol) but you know, it was most definitely gasp-and/or-moan-city up in them shits. I can understand how one could see it differently. Like you said it looks like the intent was to convey emotion, not to appear weaker, just more human.

They could tone that down a bit yeah, and the "protect her" comment highlights some of the emotional shortcomings they faced with the character. They should work on it, but I don't think the intention was anything other than to add emotion tot the character.
 

hawk2025

Member
Also unfortunate: Outside of Lara's characterization, the writing in the reboot series is... not as strong as it could be. They made Lara a better character, but she could potentially be a great character if they gave her a compelling story for her to lead.

But I can understand where you're coming from, and I absolutely don't assume to know what the hell I'm talking about.


The problem is that what you consider Lara's characterization exists precisely because the story and all other characters have been sacrificed to prop her up.

It's the ultimate trapping of poor writing: Yes, you "see her evolve" and see more sides of her: But only because every other character in the game is an empty prop to die for her, be captured for her, be an unwavering ally to her, be an antagonist to her.

The game sets up these terrible side characters to move the weak plot along all for the benefit of her character -- and it all comes to a head on the ultimate plot point that betrays how weak the story and characters are: The whole back half of Rise and the White Savior plot. We go from individual characters to a whole ancient civilization only existing and acting for her benefit.

Just awful writing.
 

Kinyou

Member
You're projecting a narrow, male-centric, "expected" view of what a "badass hero" needs to be. And I respectfully disagree.

She's a real attempt - attempt mind you, always room for improvement - to show depth to a person going through immense trauma and having to adapt who they are to survive.

It's also a video game, so ya know, killing.
But what you see as "weak," is actually the groundwork for a more nuanced persona.

They did a great job making her contemporary, considering her roots, and the need to contrast her to plenty of current male heroes.

Now, they can certainly make improvements with the other characters in these games and the overall story telling devices used and game bloat... But that's another topic
Pretty much. I think they fail in a bunch of places, but I also appreciate the attempt
 

Bossking

Banned
I always considered old Lara Croft to be a female power fantasy. She owns a mansion, goes treasure hunting for fun and profit, sassy as hell, ridiculously athletic and a crackshot with guns, and able to take out any opposition with style and extreme prejudice. She shoots dinosaurs with her dual pistols while flipping backwards twenty feet in the air, for god's sake. She's a snarky bad-ass, and even with the male gaze surrounding her, that coolness still resonated with a lot of women.

Men have hundreds of cool, sexy, ridiculous power fantasy characters all the time. Batman, Indiana Jones, James Bond, blah blah. It's a shame that one of the best female equivalents to those just isn't acceptable anymore. She now has to be weak and relatable and we have to see her grow as a real human being and all that boring stuff. We need more ridiculous bad-ass female characters, more than just Bayonetta.

Edit: Hell, we need more female protagonists to begin with.
 

Salty Hippo

Member
The problem is that what you consider Lara's characterization exists precisely because the story and all other characters have been sacrificed to prop her up.

It's the ultimate trapping of poor writing: Yes, you "see her evolve" and see more sides of her: But only because every other character in the game is an empty prop to die for her, be captured for her, be an unwavering ally to her, be an antagonist to her.

The game sets up these terrible side characters to move the weak plot along all for the benefit of her character -- and it all comes to a head on the ultimate plot point that betrays how weak the story and characters are: The whole back half of Rise and the White Savior plot. We go from individual characters to a whole ancient civilization only existing and acting for her benefit.

Just awful writing.

I don't see it like that.

She fucked up and brought Trinity to them. They work with Lara to defeat Trinity and stop them before they get their hands on the Divine Source.

Lara being more capable than anyone in a weakened, small, forgotten civilization is not a big stretch, so it makes sense that it's incumbent upon her to infiltrate the Lost City in search of it while Sofia and others stand back and focus more on defending themselves from soldiers (who are trying to wipe them out on Konstantin's religious beliefs) than helping Lara with full force.

The story is not perfect and has its holes and weak moments but I think you're nitpicking a lot there. To be honest, I actually think many people nitpick a LOT on most aspects of these modern Tomb Raider games, from story, to Lara' "not being enough of a badass", to the exploration, to the "lack of tomb raiding", to Ludington's voice acting. I'm used to it but still don't quite understand why people whine so much about these things. And it's usually done with hyperbolic terms like "awful", "abysmal", "most generic games in the whole industry". Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but come on.
 

RK128

Member
I wouldn't say a setback, because her no longer existing headlining a well received, triple AAA title would be a much bigger setback. However as much as I love and enjoy the rebooted game and sequel, the writing and characterizations are by far the weakest parts. The gameplay is so strong that a lot of the issues dealing with Lara Croft could be easily fixed simply by removing most of it and keeping the story minimal with just enough motivation for the player to know what's going on in order to continue playing to the final boss.

I was going to make a post saying something like this, but you took the words right out of my mouth. The gameplay in both TR 2013 & Rise of TR is so strong and a lot of the design elements are quite well done, but really poor stories (in the case of TR 2013, never played Rise of TR) hinder what could be amazing games for me.

Oh well, maybe for a possible third game, they can finally get the story back on track for this iteration of Tomb Raider.
 

hawk2025

Member
I don't see it like that.

She fucked up and brought Trinity to them. They work with Lara to defeat Trinity and stop them before they get their hands on the Divine Source.

Lara being more capable than anyone in a weakened, small, forgotten civilization is not a big stretch, so it makes sense that it's incumbent upon her to infiltrate the Lost City in search of it while Sofia and others stand back and focus more on defending themselves from soldiers (who are trying to wipe them out on Konstantin's religious beliefs) than helping Lara with full force.

The story is not perfect and has its holes and weak moments but I think you're nitpicking a lot there. To be honest, I actually think many people nitpick a LOT on most aspects of these modern Tomb Raider games, from story, to Lara' "not being enough of a badass", to the exploration, to the "lack of tomb raiding", to Ludington's voice acting. I'm used to it but still don't quite understand why people whine so much about these things. And it's usually done with hyperbolic terms like "awful", "abysmal", "most generic games in the whole industry". Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but come on.

You literally just described a White Savior plot. Worse, it has two wrinkles: she caused it, AND the natives simply accept her desire for the McGuffin.

It's central to the whole game -- how can that be a nitpick?

I'm using the word awful with no hyperbole.
 

Kin5290

Member
Is this just something you want to be offended by? Because from what I recall having actual human interactions a few times in my life, social graces and charisma do exist, and they aren't necessarily equal among all people either. While it might have been exaggerated, it's not entirely unrealistic.
I'm amazed that you spend so much time trekking around jungles and ancient ruins and dodging armed mercenaries. Sounds like you could write a book.

There are times and places where "feminine wiles" may serve as an important tool for achieving one's goals, but the settings that Lara finds herself in 90% of the time are not those.
 

ZiZ

Member
Thus, Lara Croft is once more a character who seems like she's about to cry or gain PTSD from all the trials and tribulations she goes through (while if you imagined a male adventurous video game character doing the same seems laughable). Personally the whole vulnerable female character type is so really annoying. It's a form of veiled sexism where female characters act fragile, exhausted and doubtful while doing the same actions a male hero would do. It's really grating and eye-rolling to listen to since it's also only the female main characters that express this vulnerability. The concept artist did a good job visually rebooting Lara but the writer and director of the new direction is not executed very well. I feel like reading the whole "you'll want to protect her" along with the continuous depiction of the iconic character as vulnerable and fragile

I disagree. Lara gets hurt a lot in the game, and yet she overcomes all that. It makes her more admirable. I like that Tomb Raider allows the protagonist actually get hurt and have some feelings.

I'd take that over a smug protagonist who'd shrug off a bullet to the face. Just because a lot of male protagonists are written that way, doesn't mean she should stoop to their level.
 

Alienfan

Member
I'm all for good female representations in games, but your assessment is really stretching it. She spends half the game saving others,and maintains the kill count of 100 serial killers. Your complaints seem to stem from weak characterization and the disconnect between the "realistic narrative" and gameplay - there isn't some hidden sexiest metaphor, she' supposed to be more grounded than a Nathan Drake. I would love to see CD double down on Lara's vulnerability/realism,they're responsible for some of her more interesting characteristics and moments - helping her stand out in a sea of self-serious badass characters.

bad ass / strength != good representation - it's usually just the writers playing it safe
 

Salty Hippo

Member
You literally just described a White Savior plot. Worse, it has two wrinkles: she caused it, AND the natives simply accept her desire for the McGuffin.

It's central to the whole game -- how can that be a nitpick?

I'm using the word awful with no hyperbole.

I guess I don't hold video game stories to literature, or even Hollywood standards then. Because if I did I would have enjoyed maybe 2 or 3 games in my entire life.

Other than a few dumb moments like Lara not taking an opportunity to kill the villan(s) in a cutscene early in the game, and Jacob appearing out of nowhere in some cutscene I don't even remember right now, I have no real complaints about Rise's story. The pace of the narrative is good enough, the plot rarely fails in giving context to the player and the lore/backstory about the real world ancient civilizations and about the Prophet and the Deathless army is interesting. *Shrugs*

Edit: I don't think the flaws are nearly enough to rip this storyline apart like some people do, considering what the average of this medium is. I just bolded something I think should not be overlooked in any discussion about video game stories. I don't know what metric someone can use to call Rise awful in this regard. It's not like many games do it better. In fact, most do it way worse. If Rise is awful, we'll have to come up with a brand new term for games like FFXIII. And guess what, there games that do it even worse than that.
 
D

Deleted member 325805

Unconfirmed Member
I just feel bad for new Lara and want to protect her, she's always getting the shit kicked out of her and nearly dies every 2 seconds, she seems a lot more vulnerable than old Lara. I really love her new in-game model though, if she were real she'd be about as close to my ideal woman as possible. Plus I feel the new voice actress does an incredible job of bringing her to life, she's a huge reason as to why I enjoyed the new games so much.
 

FLAguy954

Junior Member
You're projecting a narrow, male-centric, "expected" view of what a "badass hero" needs to be. And I respectfully disagree.

She's a real attempt - attempt mind you, always room for improvement - to show depth to a person going through immense trauma and having to adapt who they are to survive.

It's also a video game, so ya know, killing.
But what you see as "weak," is actually the groundwork for a more nuanced persona.

They did a great job making her contemporary, considering her roots, and the need to contrast her to plenty of current male heroes.

Now, they can certainly make improvements with the other characters in these games and the overall story telling devices used and game bloat... But that's another topic

I agree with your disagreement with the OP.
 
Preach it to the freakin' heavens and back, OP. Oh, Reboot!Lara Croft! You are the broken pedestal of a gift that just always keeps on giving. It's been years, and I'm still not over the loss of one of the few larger than life female power fantasy characters we had in gaming. Buh-bye Lara, enjoy Crystal Dynamics' Island of Horrors. See ya, Samus, you were Other M'd. Now two of the most iconic women in gaming are 'vulnerable', what a unique concept, that's never been done with a female character before. All we have left in the female power fantasy department is Bayonetta, and as much as I adore her, she's definitely still got her issues.

I fully acknowledge that Tomb Raider has always had a really dodgy relationship with women/sexualisation/violence. (There is an interesting essay from Cara Ellison about the original TR and the reboot from when the controversial reboot trailer came out). At the end of it all, what really disturbs me about the rebooted series is that it's become so incredibly insidious about how Lara is treated. But, hey, she's practically dressed now, all is saved!

I think one of the things I perpetually find so disturbing about the treatment of Reboot!Lara, is how it's all sunshine and roses on the surface, with more insidious steps made with the character the whole way through. Lara's gone from an adventurer that was disowned by her parents because they disagreed with her becoming an archaeologist... to being rebooted into yet another female character whose origins involve living up to her father's legacy. She's gone from smug, confident and cocky, to someone who is nondescript and uncertain. (There is nothing wrong with the latter, and it can be genuinely compelling with development. Pity Reboot!Lara is lacking in the development department.) Old School!Lara was a snarky, confident anti-hero. Reboot!Lara is a non-offensive, cookie-cutter straight forward hero with very little in the way of personality - CD very briefly explores her anti-hero element in Rise. Lara's gone from being an aggressive, proactive in your face duel-wielding pistol gun-show to a more passive heroine who has been billed as a survivor with her bow and arrow. I still think it's interesting that a bow is the weapon CD stuck Lara with, in both marketing and narrative, as opposed to a shotgun or a pistol. We were so lacking in archer women archetypes, we absolutely needed another one! Meanwhile, how 'bout that female lead with a pistol or a shotgun? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Speaking of bows, can we talk about that time the Reboot!Lara brought a bow to gun fight?

...seriously, CD, that was one of the stupidest things ever.

Old School!Lara was not remotely perfect, nor was the treatment of her in relation to sexuality and violence, but the series had no pretence to what it was. The rebooted Tomb Raider pretends it's stepped away from these roots, all the while Reboot!Lara goes through such a beating it's like there is a competition with the Crystal Dynamic devs to see what hell they can put her through next. She takes a few steps, something breaks. Here's another body of water with air pockets specifically placed so that she'll always be struggling and gasping for air by the time she gets to the other side. If there's a way for her to get scraped and beaten up by the environment, CD is all over it. There's also a continual dissonance with her injuries, just so she can get hurt more. From the 2013 game, she gets a gut wound early on and swims through revoltingly unhygienic water. It's a complete non-issue. Later on, she clips a tree, and now suddenly it's a huge deal where she can no longer jump and limps around the world for a few levels. She constantly falls from heights that would break bones, but, no, she's fine, she'll just moan for awhile, so she can fall from another height, and moan again.

I absolutely agree that playing Uncharted is also a perpetual suspension of disbelief as to how Nathan Drake is alive - but Uncharted's pulpy adventure tone fits this well. Nate might slip and slide, and have the odd long drop, but it isn't every other move he makes. Poor Reboot!Lara's world is designed for the most amount of pain they can put her through without seriously injuring her. Crystal Dynamics, for better or worse, is trying to have their gritty survival game with pulpy adventure tropes all at the same time. Unfortunately the end result is a female character with a long-standing history of sexualising/violence getting hurt, over and over and over. If CD wanted to truly make a gritty survival game, they needed to be realistic about how and when Lara gets hurt. Lara would have died about ten minutes into reboot, and probably every ten minutes after. I've always found the 'it's realistic!' excuse to be rubbish. CD want their pulpy adventure take alongside the grit. I always feel like the series unsuccessfully wrestles with both genres, and Lara (literally) suffers instead.

I want to emphasise my complaints are also not an issue of a female character getting hurt. That's fine, she's in life or death situations, it's going to happen. I'd expect the same thing of a male character. The difference is how Lara is treated during all of this, the sexualised element that is lacking with a male lead, and the ludicrous frequency of it all.

One of the issues that ties into the above is that Lara's vocalisations are still an absolute disturbing train wreck, even in Rise. I don't know if it's just Camilla Luddington not being the strongest actress, or if she's under specific direction from CD. The sounds Lara makes in game continue to blur the already fucked-up line the series has with women, sexualisation, and violence. They're not sounds actual women make when they are in pain, or doing something that requires physical exertion. They're at the Vanille-tier of The Slightest Move Is Making Me Orgasm. My favourite example for doing vocalisations correctly is Bayonetta. Her grunts in combat are realistic and guttural, and when she's hit, her yells are never sexual in nature. Bayonetta gets this right, of all ironic sexualised characters! Bayonetta! Her Smash reveal is probably one of the easiest vids to demonstrate her combat sounds.

Bayonetta gets a lot of things right that Tomb Raider has never been able to, and I frequently find myself comparing the two series, despite the drastically different genres. Snarky, sexualised, British female larger than life leads, how could you not compare? Platinum keeps Bayonetta's sexuality and any objectification of her far, far away from violence. Never the twain shall meet. The villains never comment on any aspect of her sexuality, never are sexual in response to her, and never use it against her. As above, her combat noises aren't sexualised, and when she's fighting, it's 100% all business. It's because of this approach from Platinum, I have only once felt uncomfortable playing as Bayonetta*, and playing the series is general a relaxing power fantasy jaunt. Playing the Tomb Raider reboot is a constant teeth-grit of CD's insidious treatment towards Lara. I think it's absurd that a game where the female lead loses her clothing-hair to summon demons in combat respects its female character better than the touted empowering Tomb Raider reboot.

*Platinum dropped the ball with the sequel's Rodin boss fight, though. Naked, foetal Bayonetta. Yep. Awful.


There are some great discussions in this thread about how Strong Female Characters should be allowed to show strength in ways outside the cliched norms, which I 1000% agree with. The Strong Female Character trope that's popped up in the last few years has been supremely frustrating, especially since these Strong Female Characters are generally just shallow attempts that often have very little use or relevance in the story. Strength isn't just being able to punch someone in the face. I also don't want to diminish what Reboot!Lara goes through - she's an absolute fucking badass. I would have drowned the first minute into the game. (If I was the Tomb Raider lead, the game would only be worth one dollar, because that's how long the runtime would be.) My primary, frustrated complaints are just how much Reboot!Lara has lost so much from her original incarnation. There are very few redeemable things that have been left in Old School!Lara's place, both with her as a character, and with Reboot!Lara's disturbing treatment in game.

...at any rate, it had been a few months since my last 'save me from Reboot!Lara, and take notes from the Book of Bayonetta' essay, I apologise for another one. (I have a pipe dream that CD will reboot the reboot, completely change their treatment of Lara, and magically give Tomb Raider to Cara Ellison when she's finished on Dishonored 2. Every time I re-read one of her Tomb Raider essays I remember the Lara that I looked up to as a kid - bizarre pointy triangular breasts and all - and then the reality of Reboot!Lara comes crashing back.)
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I disagree.

It seems to me that her "weakness" is that she is much more in the realm of a normal human being than the 83 million space marine/super commando/chosen one games that star men. And this is not something that is happening in isolation with only her character, but all the men in the game are the same way, and actually weaker than her in many cases. Instead of it being a characterization of a weak woman, I think it is an entire game trying to be more human that just happens to star a woman.

Male characters in other games also have pain responses plenty of times, but they just shrug it off like unrealistic gods. When you don't take deep notice of their sounds, is it because they shrug it off like gods so you don't take the pain/weakness cues seriously? Is it because you are more empathetic to such sounds from a woman? I think these are possible factors. It is hard to be directly comparable to every other game on the market while also changing the paradigm away from negative/stupid traits of the typical godlike hypermasculine power fantasy concepts.

As for Lara's development from one game to the next, I do think she made a lot of improvements. There is a lot less fear and brink-of-death frailty in her camp thoughts and other asides, she is more decisive and chooses her own direction more, she separates from others by choice more than by outside circumstances, she moves to help others more often rather than only escaping where she is, she defeats
an army of supernatural soldiers who easily slaughter anyone else.
Has she entirely grown up into her own? No, and that is why they have her chasing her father's example to become like him. This game is her "rise" not her towering victory and full establishment of self at the peak.

If there is anything I would have changed in how she acts, it would be to shiver less in the cold when she is wearing insulated coats. I mean what are those things for if she acts the same as in a t-shirt? lol. Anyway, RotTR is my 2015 GotY, a massive leap over TR2013 in every respect, and I think an overall positive step forward for not only characterization of women but of people in action games altogether. Even with all the maybe-supernatural stuff, it is a very human characterization and story without it being a gimmick of the player-as-prey like in zombie games. This is the case not only in the might of the characters, but their concerns for each other and their individual responsibilities, values, attachments, and ambitions.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Anyone that hear Lara moans when she's tired/exerting/impaled/whatever in the game, and immediately think, "This is sexual!".....

I'd argue something is more wrong about you than the game itself.

Because that is just silly.
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I mean, you can talk about the moaning and the vulnerability or whatever til the cows come home, but for me it's the actions of a character that makes them weak or strong, not their pain tolerance or their emotional state.

Lara makes it through both of the new Tomb Raider games having conquered staggering odds and performed a vast array of incredible feats, and frankly she does it all with a whole lot less crying and whimpering than I as a male would've managed.
 

Sanctuary

Member
From the 2013 game, she gets a gut wound early on and swims through revoltingly unhygienic water. It's a complete non-issue. Later on, she clips a tree, and now suddenly it's a huge deal where she can no longer jump and limps around the world for a few levels. She constantly falls from heights that would break bones, but, no, she's fine, she'll just moan for awhile, so she can fall from another height, and moan again.

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Realism

but for me it's the actions of a character that makes them weak or strong, not their pain tolerance or their emotional state.

Lara makes it through both of the new Tomb Raider games having conquered staggering odds and performed a vast array of incredible feats.

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Feats (and potentially staggering odds?)
 
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