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[youta]

Someone should release a PS5-exclusive with ray tracing called "Grass and Trees" at 4K/120FPS.

NeoGAF GOTY right there.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Things get altered during development and graphical settings sometimes need to be lowered to get stable performance news at 11.

Yeah ..but if what you're implying is true and that developers had pure intentions from the beginning, then we would also see just as many examples of "Upgrades" than downgrades. The truth is, 95% of the time a game releases looking different than original demos, they look worse! Why? Because they know they can get away with fibbing a little bit (in this games case a lot a bit) and the hype generated by exaggerating the graphics will be worth whatever backlash they get!

That doesn't make this practice acceptable, it's just a time worn tradition in the industry. These publishers and devs with dubious ethics, of which there are many, try to get away with any little thing they can. It's all about their bottom line and like Slimey has said they are emboldened by the big boys like Sony's actions. So, when Sony and MS hold their press conferences where they obviously encourage showing PC footage labelled under the banner of a "Ps5 reveal event", then its "Cart blanche" for 3rd parties to do it too. When they see Sony and MS raising prices to $70 they follow suite and when they see Sony and MS not putting in the effort required to deliver next gen visuals they also follow suite.

 

[TexMex]

Are they “getting away with it”?? I mean they showed the game then and they’re showing it now. They’re not hiding what it looks like. Hell they even put out a free demo. I’m not sure what more they should be doing. If the final product isn’t for you, don’t buy it.

 

[EDMIX]

lol the game looks just fine and I'm sure most are buying to actually play it vs look at it.

 

[01011001]

Are they “getting away with it”?? I mean they showed the game then and they’re showing it now. They’re not hiding what it looks like. Hell they even put out a free demo. I’m not sure what more they should be doing. If the final product isn’t for you, don’t buy it.

you could absolutely make the argument that doing this sort of stuff is giving one game an unfair market advantage over another.

if we imagine for the sake of this argument that 2 games are shown at E3, both shooters and both neae future military themed.

one game shows it's real target graphics that are basically guaranteed to look as good or better in the final product.

and the other game shows a gameplay demo with vastly unrealistically high graphics settings, and they know that this is unrealistic to be the final look of the game.

in this scenario the developer's lie gives one game an unfair advantage because it very likely has drawn more attention than the exact same game that looks worse.
and many publishers and devs are publicly traded companies, which means this could also manipulate the stock market

 

[Melfice7]

because you motherfuckers dont speak with your wallet

 

[BlitzerRadic]

What a dumb ass complaint. This is the equivalent of complaining that concept/show/pre-pro vehicles look better than what you can eventually buy off the dealer lot.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Between flashy CGI trailers and bullshots, I feel it can unrealistically raises gamer’s expectations. I think if companies were more upfront and honest with their screenshots and visual presentation, gamers probably wouldn’t be as disappointed in the final product.

 

[shiru]

What a dumb ass complaint. This is the equivalent of complaining that concept/show/pre-pro vehicles look better than what you can eventually buy off the dealer lot.

nah

 

[ChiefDada]

So, when Sony and MS hold their press conferences where they obviously encourage showing PC footage labelled under the banner of a "Ps5 reveal event"

How often does Sony do this? The only one I can recall from recent memory is the first look at FFXVI, and again it was explicitly stated. Vast majority of PS5 trailers are accompanied by "Captured from PS5 " caption. Sony has a reputation for being very up front on this matter.

 

[TGO]

When in the history of gaming has the first trailer to a game ever looked like the final product.
Sure you get the rare instance of it improving or being close but more often then not it's downgraded.
Keep believing those first trailers and you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

 

[remember_spinal]

Posted from someone that has the game:

Its looks fine. Its not gonna win any Digital Foundry awards. I’ve seen far worse looking games released this past year

 

[Agent_Nobody]

Yeah ..but if what you're implying is true and that developers had pure intentions from the beginning, then we would also see just as many examples of "Upgrades" than downgrades. The truth is, 95% of the time a game releases looking different than original demos, they look worse! Why? Because they know they can get away with fibbing a little bit (in this games case a lot a bit) and the hype generated by exaggerating the graphics will be worth whatever backlash they get!

That doesn't make this practice acceptable, it's just a time worn tradition in the industry. These publishers and devs with dubious ethics, of which there are many, try to get away with any little thing they can. It's all about their bottom line and like Slimey has said they are emboldened by the big boys like Sony's actions. So, when Sony and MS hold their press conferences where they obviously encourage showing PC footage labelled under the banner of a "Ps5 reveal event", then its "Cart blanche" for 3rd parties to do it too. When they see Sony and MS raising prices to $70 they follow suite and when they see Sony and MS not putting in the effort required to deliver next gen visuals they also follow suite.

It had a warning that it was in production and was subject to change.

A lot of development is top down; they make something as detailed as they can then dumb it down as needed. It isn’t trying to get away with anything, it’s showing what they think something might look like, and sometimes it just ends up short of what they were aiming for in terms of performance, they can’t just wave a magic wand and make it the same as the preview while making it playable.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

When in the history of gaming has the first trailer to a game ever looked like the final product.
Sure you get the rare instance of it improving or being close but more often then not it's downgraded.
Keep believing those first trailers and you'll just set yourself up for disappointment.

Yup. It's surely happened, but sure doesn't happen often. The funny thing is with game making, dont the studios always push the message an early trailers and interviews it"needs time for polish and optimization"? Well, if that's true the final game should look better not worse.

It had a warning that it was in production and was subject to change.

A lot of development is top down; they make something as detailed as they can then dumb it down as needed. It isn’t trying to get away with anything, it’s showing what they think something might look like, and sometimes it just ends up short of what they were aiming for, and they can’t wave a magic wand and make it the same visually while making it playable.

If that's the case, then it's a misleading way to market the game since it seems like a general standard that stuff looks worse not better. So it's not like a new phenomenon in game making. It's a pretty tried and true way of marketing games.

But I totally get marketing, you try to make stuff as good looking as possible (misleading or not) and hope the customer doesn't care. It's just a shady way to do things.

In this thread or another one, someone brought up Big Macs. To me that is totally different.

Even though a Big Mac looks 10x better on TV, people know that's not a real Big Mac. That's faked on a stage and not cooked at an actual store. Also, as long as the real burger you get is hot, tastes good, comes out fast and costs the same as they say on TV that's good enough. Nobody really cares if they open the wrapper and the burger falls over. Looks arent that important.

For gaming it's different, since graphics are really important to gamers. It's something part of the enjoyment of a game through the entire game. And since the studio shows gamers trailers they are trying to convince gamers it's the real deal. Here's a real one minute video of what we actually made at head office.

 

[Agent_Nobody]

Yup. It's surely happened, but sure doesn't happen often. The funny thing is with game making, dont the studios always push the message an early trailers and interviews it"needs time for polish and optimization"? Well, if that's true the final game should look better not worse.

If that's the case, then it's a misleading way to market the game since it seems like a general standard that stuff looks worse not better. So it's not like a new phenomenon in game making. It's a pretty tried and true way of marketing games.

But I totally get marketing, you try to make stuff as good looking as possible (misleading or not) and hope the customer doesn't care. It's just a shady way to do things.

In this thread or another one, someone brought up Big Macs. To me that is totally different.

Even though a Big Mac looks 10x better on TV, people know that's not a real Big Mac. That's faked on a stage and not cooked at an actual store. Also, as long as the real burger you get is hot, tastes good, comes out fast and costs the same as they say on TV that's good enough. Nobody really cares if they open the wrapper and the burger falls over. Looks arent that important.

For gaming it's different, since graphics are really important to gamers. It's something part of the enjoyment of a game through the entire game. And since the studio shows gamers in trailers they are trying to convince gamers it's the real deal. Here's a real one minute video of what we actually made at head office.

Like all the other developers over the years; ‘most will have bitten off more than they can chew, but some might learn the game.‘

 

[SteelCurtain 59]

The game's not out yet, in what way are they "getting away with it"?

 

[EDMIX]

The game's not out yet, in what way are they "getting away with it"?

they are so evil, they put out a demo so you can try before you buy.

fucking tricksters they are /s

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

It had a warning that it was in production and was subject to change.

A lot of development is top down; they make something as detailed as they can then dumb it down as needed. It isn’t trying to get away with anything, it’s showing what they think something might look like, and sometimes it just ends up short of what they were aiming for in terms of performance, they can’t just wave a magic wand and make it the same as the preview while making it playable.

Then they shouldn't try to pass it off as if that's how the game will actually look. Say something like "target gameplay". You're being naive to think this is the way it has to go down. They should've tempered expectations in one of the numerous interviews they've probably given. Like "hey, I know you guys are excited about these amazing visuals you keep talking about but the games not going to look that good".

Of course they never say that. They want the hype. It's dishonest.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

How often does Sony do this? The only one I can recall from recent memory is the first look at FFXVI, and again it was explicitly stated. Vast majority of PS5 trailers are accompanied by "Captured from PS5 " caption. Sony has a reputation for being very up front on this matter.

Sony is always downgrading their games though. Just not to a degree that is completely unacceptable.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Are they “getting away with it”?? I mean they showed the game then and they’re showing it now. They’re not hiding what it looks like. Hell they even put out a free demo. I’m not sure what more they should be doing. If the final product isn’t for you, don’t buy it.

They're getting away with it with the casuals by creating hype. Most people don't keep up with a games evolution the way the hard-core gamers do. Their aim is to generate a hype train. If they were more realistic and honest in the beginning about how their game would look they wouldn't generate the same levels of excitement. This definitely results in more sales for them but by not being more realistic they obviously piss a lot of people off too. If they were truly honest do you think the whole issue of downgrades would keep happening? Of course not.

When people really get upset with a downgrade it's when it's especially egregious. It's one thing to have a Last of Us 2 level downgrade where most people aren't that bothered since the game looks close to the initial showing. There are many examples of this and by and large they are within reasonable degrees of what's acceptable. Then, you have Watch Dogs or Witcher 3 or KZ2 where people are rightfully pissed.

 

[lh032]

Sony is always downgrading their games though.

yet their games looks way better than most games on the market, and won awards : D

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

Yup. Bullshots have been around since the first game system in the 70s. Back then magazine ads or back of the box art weren't even digital bullshots from an alpha build. They were fake renditions an artist drew at head office. At least back then electronics and gaming were in it's infancy, so expecting up to date professional processes was probably not realistic at the time with cardboard boxes and gaming offices with 12 people working there.

I have no idea why gaming gets such a free pass. Whether it's fake pics, alpha builds or "subject to change", they are given free reign to what they want where the final game can be totally different where no business or government authority cares.

If Kitchenaid promoted a new blender coming out later in the year and showed it in ads and the boxart had the same thing, I dont think Kitchenaid can put a disclaimer at the bottom in tiny font saying it's subjective what's inside the box (assuming they even do that at all).

So the box and ads shows a nice red blender with 5 buttons and 3 different modes. You open the box and get a green blender, 4 buttons and 2 modes. People would hold Kitchenaid accountable. And every store and Kitchenaid themselves would honour anyone refunding it.

In gaming, the studio would just claim "sorry bud, things change", and getting a refund depends if you can convince the brick & mortar store or e-store clerks to give you a refund. There's a chance they might say too bad you opened it. As a consumer, it's a catch 22 because you'd never know how good or bad it is without opening it and testing it yourself.

I wouldn't say gaming specifically gets a pass. Movie trailers often show stuff that doesn't end up in the final cut. I remember as a kid going to see Blank Check and waiting for a shot from the trailer that never appeared in film. The trailer for All the Money in the World featured Kevin Spacey in a major role, and he was completely cut and replaced in the final theatrical version.

Half the sellers on Amazon put blatant lies in their product descriptions. In two days you can have a flashlight delivered that is apparently rated with enough lumens to melt through the Earth's crust. No one is facing consequences for any of this stuff.

 

[ahtlas7]

Ends justifies the means. Video games business is crooked as a mafia bank.

 

[Agent_Nobody]

Then they shouldn't try to pass it off as if that's how the game will actually look. Say something like "target gameplay". You're being naive to think this is the way it has to go down. They should've tempered expectations in one of the numerous interviews they've probably given. Like "hey, I know you guys are excited about these amazing visuals you keep talking about but the games not going to look that good".

Of course they never say that. They want the hype. It's dishonest.

They had the warning of it being ’subject to change’ there though.

Maybe you can call it capitalist greed but when you get down to it all they’re trying to do is show their product in the best light possible…I really can’t fault them for it.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

OP I assume you're younger.

Today a lot of games look great, but us older gamers are forged in pessimism. Bullshots were a fucking epidemic 20 years ago, nothing like it is today. But we're still sour, so we're less likely to be disappointed like you.

Never forget the Killzone 2 trailer.

 

[Clear]

So, imagine you are picking out screenshots to use for promo purposes; do you choose the ones that make the game look at its worst or at its best? Its not like every shot is equally good looking when something as simple as lighting for time-of-day can make drastic differences to the same area.

Same deal with trailers, do you cherry-pick footage or what?

Its comical. It really is.

There are no conspiracies. If a game looks a certain way months before release that's because that's how it actually looked at that point under the conditions shown.

No studio is going to the expense of making a mock-up that looks better than what they believe they can eventually achieve in the final product. Especially because if the goal is to create is an eye-catching cinematic, then why not just label it as "non-gameplay footage" or such and nobody is going to care because, again, if its non interactive then it clearly is what it is and can always be included as a video clip in the game.

And obviously if they are going through with the expense of creating some sort of cg promo, they might as well make it look as good as possible with an proper offline renderer. There's literally no point in faking up something that only looks a bit better than what you can do real-time.

 

[TexMex]

They're getting away with it with the casuals by creating hype. Most people don't keep up with a games evolution the way the hard-core gamers do. Their aim is to generate a hype train. If they were more realistic and honest in the beginning about how their game would look they wouldn't generate the same levels of excitement. This definitely results in more sales for them but by not being more realistic they obviously piss a lot of people off too. If they were truly honest do you think the whole issue of downgrades would keep happening? Of course not.

When people really get upset with a downgrade it's when it's especially egregious. It's one thing to have a Last of Us 2 level downgrade where most people aren't that bothered since the game looks close to the initial showing. There are many examples of this and by and large they are within reasonable degrees of what's acceptable. Then, you have Watch Dogs or Witcher 3 or KZ2 where people are rightfully pissed.

Do you think "the casuals" even saw the tech demo from 2+ years ago? Or if they did, could vividly recall it enough to notice a difference in fidelity? Anyone who could isn't a casual, and almost certainly knows better if they aren't. Who is this demographic that saw the initial demo, did a total media blackout for nearly three years, bought the game and is wildly disappointed with the visual degredation?

 

[Superkewl]

Isn't all of this moot? The game's not even out yet.

Never ever pre-order, and even if you did, you still have a couple days to cancel.

 

[SlimySnake]

I was watching the trailers from 2001 and 2022, and they look downgraded from the original reveal when the game was revealed as Project Athia at the PS5 reveal in 2020. But despite the downgrade they look far better than the demo. The draw distance is very impressive and the foliage looks like it extends forever. Something last gen games cut off after a few yards. the Lighting is also way better than the blown out lighting in the demo.

What's interesting is that the 2021 trailer looks better than the 2022 trailer and the 2022 trailer looks way better the final game. They had 3 years to optimize the game and they ended up just downgrading it over and over again until it looks fucking disgusting.

September 2021


March 2022

 

[remember_spinal]

I was watching the trailers from 2001 and 2022, and they look downgraded from the original reveal when the game was revealed as Project Athia at the PS5 reveal in 2020. But despite the downgrade they look far better than the demo. The draw distance is very impressive and the foliage looks like it extends forever. Something last gen games cut off after a few yards. the Lighting is also way better than the blown out lighting in the demo.

What's interesting is that the 2021 trailer looks better than the 2022 trailer and the 2022 trailer looks way better the final game. They had 3 years to optimize the game and they ended up just downgrading it over and over again until it looks fucking disgusting.

September 2021


March 2022

Its the same picture.jpg

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I was watching the trailers from 2001 and 2022, and they look downgraded from the original reveal when the game was revealed as Project Athia at the PS5 reveal in 2020. But despite the downgrade they look far better than the demo. The draw distance is very impressive and the foliage looks like it extends forever. Something last gen games cut off after a few yards. the Lighting is also way better than the blown out lighting in the demo.

What's interesting is that the 2021 trailer looks better than the 2022 trailer and the 2022 trailer looks way better the final game. They had 3 years to optimize the game and they ended up just downgrading it over and over again until it looks fucking disgusting.

September 2021


March 2022

How the fuck can anyone defend this? Yet just like always there are at least 50 people here trying to turn things around on the people who are calling out this incompetence, laziness, and dishonesty on the part of the developers and publishers of this shit show. The fact that this is a next gen only game is further insulting. Do we really want to accept this as being a "normal" part of development? Most of the defenders want to give them a pass just because they have us a demo. So they're not trying to land themselves a class action lawsuit. Yay, round of applause. What a great way to open up the New Year with its first truly next gen open world game.

 

[TexMex]

How the fuck can anyone defend this? Yet just like always there are at least 50 people here trying to turn things around on the people who are calling out this incompetence, laziness, and dishonesty on the part of the developers and publishers of this shit show. The fact that this is a next gen only game is further insulting. Do we really want to accept this as being a "normal" part of development? Most of the defenders want to give them a pass just because they have us a demo. So they're not trying to land themselves a class action lawsuit. Yay, round of applause. What a great way to open up the New Year with its first truly next gen open world game.

R u ok

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Do you think "the casuals" even saw the tech demo from 2+ years ago? Or if they did, could vividly recall it enough to notice a difference in fidelity? Anyone who could isn't a casual, and almost certainly knows better if they aren't. Who is this demographic that saw the initial demo, did a total media blackout for nearly three years, bought the game and is wildly disappointed with the visual degredation?

Yes, I do think the casuals saw this at the grand unveiling of the Ps5 and around E3 when the internet was flooded with trailers. Who is the demographic that, even if they are not casual and know how much is was visually degraded, wouldn't be disappointed and letdown by the real game?

Even if I'm wrong and they didn't do this to generate hype, does that make this downgrade business ok? Is this a good level of fidelity for a next gen exclusive from a major developer? What happened from when they showed it back then to now?

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

R u ok

Yes ..im not defending corporations shitty practices, greed and incompetence You guys do every single time. You are part of the reason the industry has gone to shit.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

This has been happening all the time since the PS3/360 generation so I don’t know what to tell you guys. Not excusing it but if it’s too good to be true it probably is.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

They were using the PC version which obviously will look better so I don't think they changed anything.

A current top end PC will have the ability to look better, but not a generation better than the PS5 when we are talking multiplats that uses consoles as the baseline. That looks like a PS4 game now.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

Games are made on high-end PCs early on before being converted and altered to run on specific hardware.

Should also point out that basically every game you’ve ever played has been visually downgraded from it’s pre-alpha target footage, whether you were aware of it or not. It’s been happening since the N64 era when games started being made in 3D. It’s by no means a new thing.

You should go back and look at the target footage of first-gen OG Xbox games back from 2000. Everyone was saying the games would look like Pixar’s Toy Story, they would be so advanced. Even in the Series X/ PS5 era, we *still* aren’t even quite there yet.

That is only true before devs get their hands on console dev kits. I'm pretty sure console is the target dev platform for most multiplat games. They aren't downporting from PC for most games, but the other way around.

 

[GhostOfTsu]

Even with the "downgrade" it stills look better than Elden Ring and it didn't stop anyone playing that game

 

[rofif]

They're getting away with it with the casuals by creating hype. Most people don't keep up with a games evolution the way the hard-core gamers do. Their aim is to generate a hype train. If they were more realistic and honest in the beginning about how their game would look they wouldn't generate the same levels of excitement. This definitely results in more sales for them but by not being more realistic they obviously piss a lot of people off too. If they were truly honest do you think the whole issue of downgrades would keep happening? Of course not.

When people really get upset with a downgrade it's when it's especially egregious. It's one thing to have a Last of Us 2 level downgrade where most people aren't that bothered since the game looks close to the initial showing. There are many examples of this and by and large they are within reasonable degrees of what's acceptable. Then, you have Watch Dogs or Witcher 3 or KZ2 where people are rightfully pissed.

There is nothing to get away with.when you create a game you aim for something. It’s hard to say where you will end up. Maybe they had only 6fps with their initial graphics?
Maybe a game is not ready?!

This is still not dark souls2. That game was butchered because it ran too slow.

 

[SegaSnatcher]

The game would objectively look better had it been targeting strictly 30fps and adding in bells and whistles. Dont bother quoting me again if you're going to deny that.

Forbidden West, a cross gen game looks way better in its 60fps mode than Forspoken. It's just devs who simply don't have the skills to properly push the hardware and utilize their potential.

 

[rofif]

Yes ..im not defending corporations shitty practices, greed and incompetence You guys do every single time. You are part of the reason the industry has gone to shit.

There is nothing to be mad about here just yet.
We get a totally new single player IP without loot boxes, 4 player coop and even not on ue5.
It’s hard to judge how the game will look. If you noticed, the game ran like ass on the trailers. They had to find a middle ground.
All that matters is if it is good. Watch dogs did not fail because of graphics. But that’s Ubisoft. These guys were probably false to begin with.

And with killzone 2 trailer, the guys were like “wtf are we going to do now?!” When the team saw the trailer delivered from external studio….
It’s corporations, marketing and it’s just how it is.

I still do t see any malice here. Maybe they just overshoot

 

[TexMex]

Yes ..im not defending corporations shitty practices, greed and incompetence You guys do every single time. You are part of the reason the industry has gone to shit.

Sounds good. Let us know if we need to call someone for you. Love you.

 

[Team Andromeda]

How often does Sony do this? The only one I can recall from recent memory is the first look at FFXVI, and again it was explicitly stated. Vast majority of PS5 trailers are accompanied by "Captured from PS5 " caption. Sony has a reputation for being very up front on this matter.

Not the same SONY that showed off bullshit CGI PS2 tech demo's that faked footage of The Last Guardian running on the PS3 , that downgraded the graphics of The Getaway on the PS2 and also tried to pass off Motostorm and Killzone 2 CGI as running in real-time at E3 2005

 

[Rush2112]

Woke protagonist
FFXV Dev
Misleading advertisement
69.99 on Steam


Enjoy

 

[yansolo]

yeh nah

 

[Mr Reasonable]

The real head scratcher is the pics with superior graphics was confirmed to be real gameplay captured on PS5. Wtf happened? Clearly ps5 can manage with the higher fidelity so why remove it?

Frame rate, draw distance, effects, any number of things.

I just saw a comparison video on twitter and need to update my previous comment...

...The game you saw wasn't running on ps5.

 

[digdug2]

So older games won't look old.

If that's the case, then what's the point of even having console generations that make leaps and bounds over the previous generation? Sure, making money factors into it, but it doesn't make sense why you'd willingly hamstring your new games to make old games from a decade ago not 'look old'.

 

[SHA]

If that's the case, then what's the point of even having console generations that make leaps and bounds over the previous generation? Sure, making money factors into it, but it doesn't make sense why you'd willingly hamstring your new games to make old games from a decade ago not 'look old'.

I don't believe it either but Phil once said he aim for long-term sales , gamers do look for older games and that's a fact , scarcity do create sales , most buying decisions by consumers aren't used to be smart either , it happens by multiple factors , or constraints to them , whatever you call it , it really hurts them and shorten the lifespan of many released games.

 

[Hot5pur]

Only a problem if the final trailer misrepresents the game.
Also, as a consumer, you can always wait a few days, look at reviews, make a decision.
Quite frankly I'm more tired of games shipping with bugs and game breaking problems than slight visual downgrades.
If you want to guarantee the best visual fidelity go for a high end gaming PC, "current" gen consoles already struggle with modern games at high setting.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Because "Subject to change"

This is the change, enjoy