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How is it that Zelda maintained its status while Final Fantasy couldnt?

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
final fantasy got big off of one game whereas zelda kept improving in quality and garnering an audience for being an amazing action adventure dungeon crawler. 🤷‍♂️ The main thing FF7 did really was introduce the mainstream to JRPGs... Zelda completely changed the industry

Let's be honest 90% of GAF probably didn't know what Final Fantasy was until FFVII started appearing on the Playstation magazines

I know this post comes off as bait but really.. FF is regarded for FF7. Not FF6, not FF5, not FF9, and especially not 10 which is divisive in its own right

Zelda's known for more than just Ocarina of time, Zelda's loved for ALTTP, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, BOTW, and my beloved Majora's Mask.

90% of the time a FF fan's favorite FF game will be FF7. It's not so certain for Zelda.
For what it's worth FF VI on the super Nintendo was my favorite. VII was alright, didn't bother with VIII. Loved IX. Hate quit the entire franchise with X
 

n0razi

Member
Everything from about FF12 onward has been pretty mediocre while I would say only Skyward Sword has been meh for the Zelda series.
 

bender

What time is it?
2D to 3D was a more profound jump for the Zelda series which helped the formula stay fresher in comparison. And even with that, the formula started to feel stale around Twilight Princess or at the very least Skyward Sword.
 

Lethal01

Member
The entire point I’m making is that the level of backlash is roughly similar but that for Zelda it lasts longer because each game is the “main” game for years where ff gets a new one much sooner
Skyward sword had backlash, but FF15s was waay bigger.

Never liked FF but the direction Zelda is going in now is not good. Just imagine if Zelda looked like final fantasy looked in that recent state of play...man...
That would make me give up on the franchise instantly.
FF16 has a bland Artstyle paired with bland world and character design, I'd much rather Final Fantasy looked like Breath of the Wild😂
 
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Mate I have no idea what weird built up projected idea about me playing up Zelda you are trying to push on to me when I’ve said multiple times I think ff16 looks better than totk does but if this is how you view the world I guess it’s no wonder you think the entire industry worships Nintendo, just mentioning them seems to be giving them a free pass and building up a narrative in your conspiracy world

Anyway, you at least have good taste in games if you like ff14, which you do, so I’m going to wish you luck in your nice fantasy land and block you now

Pathetic. Nobody believes you made this thread in any good faith attempt to stimulate a good discussion. You already came in with a way you wanted it to carry out through your own bias. Dismissing anything critical against your "game".
Too bad, since it backfired on you and there are plenty of well articulated opinions and experiences from many different people. Then you block people for actually engaging in the very discussion but not sharing your view, like a bitch.
 

nkarafo

Member
Zelda focus is gameplay and game design.

Final Fantasy is about cinematics and story. Gameplay is an afterthought. I mean, random turn based battles, eh.
 
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ByWatterson

Member
Because your premise is false and Final Fantasy still has its status.

FF14 is the world's most heralded MMO, VII Remake is drowning in GOTY nods, and XVI appears ready to set the world on Firaga.
 
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I was a huge FF fan growing up, especially the PS1/PS2 years. When FF7 first came out it was a spectacle rivaled only by Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time. The world felt gigantic and the way the story unfolded was pretty intriguing.

Maybe things are getting lost in translation in the newer games, but most of the dialog and voiceover work feels convoluted and cringey. FF15 felt like a bunch of Zoolander characters in Armani Exchange outfits from 2001 driving around a big empty world, and I can't even remember what I was doing during that game. FF7R felt convoluted and off to me as well, like they swapped the good weirdness of the original for the bad weirdness of FF15.

Also I can't stand these new hybrid battle systems. Either give me a straight up action game or a good turn based system. I think a lot of fans just want a traditional FF with turn based combat and towns and modern graphics and QOL improvements but I think those days are sadly long gone. Hopefully DQ12 doesn't get rid of the traditional combat like sites are implying.
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
BotW is popular, but not influential at all. There's like one or two games that aped its art direction and that's about it. I actually WISH that its best quality - no handholding - was influential for open world games, but most developers still use the Ubi/Sony icon checklist formula instead. Elden Ring is the only open world game that felt like it followed the openness of BotW, but even that probably harkens back to FROMs own games more versus BotW.

For an influental game by comparison, look at how Resident Evil 2 remake made every publisher cram out their long dead traditional survival horror IPs with remakes and sequels.

Excuse Me Reaction GIF

Which games were actually influenced by BotW?

Literally the best game of the generation, elden ring copied its way of exploration massively.

Horizon forbidden west tried to change their entire climbing style because of it and failed. Added the floating glider from botw too.

Genshin impact, plus plenty of other indie games. Obviously immortal fenyx rising.

You can see the influence if you look
 
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Literally the best game of the generation, elden ring copied its way of exploration massively.

Horizon forbidden west tried to change their entire climbing style because of it and failed. Added the floating from botw too.

Gunship impact, plus plenty of other indie games.

You can see the influence if you look
your personal taste + two and a half specific examples in 6 years time =/= influence

Also BotW itself copied lots of existing open world design and isn't nearly as innovative as something like LoZ (NES) or OoT to begin with. The things it brought to the table might have resonated with people, but its impact feels little. Again, I would prefer it the other way and have more games like Elden Ring, but that's clearly not the reality.
 
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Aldric

Member
two and a half specific examples in 6 years time =/= influence
How many games do you expect BotW to influence in 6 years? What's the threshold? The kind of games BotW could influence take very long to develop and BotW's influence won't be fully understood until we have enough distance from its release to judge.

Even so two blatantly derivative games have already been released including one of the most popular free to play games ever in Genshin Impact, this is already more than most games can say and there's more examples like for ex Pokemon Arceus that blatantly tried to channel BotW in its trailers, Sonic Frontiers that did the same, that new chinese funded game by a former Nintendo guy that evokes the same kind of tone (Infinity Niki or something like that) or smaller budget/indie games like Valheim, Sable, Tchia and probably more I forget.

And if you're tempted to come back with stupid bullshit like "BotW DiDnt INveNt rUinS and grAss!!!1" then please don't waste my time and abstain.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Main draw from BotW and TotK is going to be if you can see it you can go there. Even moreso now that you don't just climb mountains you can fly over them.

FFXVI just takes notes from FFX and FFXIV and just has a lot of instanced zones or rooms they are going to put you in to prioritize graphical fidelity.

Key difference between the two is that Zelda is gameplay driven and the story is in the details around Hyrule while FF is story driven and most of what you see are just artistic set pieces if anything else.

Originally FF was inspired from Dungeons and Dragons but now I'm not exactly sure what it wants to be.
 
Final Fantasy is a franchise that's been on the decline for a long while. Square enix still chasing the success it had with ff7 and has never been able to repeat it.
 

Mokus

Member
Literally the best game of the generation, elden ring copied its way of exploration massively.

Horizon forbidden west tried to change their entire climbing style because of it and failed. Added the floating glider from botw too.

Genshin impact, plus plenty of other indie games. Obviously immortal fenyx rising.

You can see the influence if you look
I have yet to play BotW (although I do own a Switch) to say anything for sure. But Elden Ring's "more organic" open world exploration is obvious influence from Red Dead Redemption which was improved in GTA V and further in Red Dead Redemption II.

The thing is, I hear nothing about the big influence of BotW something like the: Soul's like, Diablo Clone, Warcraft III like (the RTS-RPG mix), World of Warcraft... impact, which was followed by many actually clones.
 
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Rykan

Member
I know this post comes off as bait
Your post doesn't come off as bait. It's just that nearly everything in it is completely wrong. Let's go over your claims one by one and assess just how absurd they really are.
Let's be honest, 90% of GAF probably didn't know what Final Fantasy was until FFVII started appearing on the Playstation magazines
Let me remind you that Final Fantasy VII came out in 1997. Considering it's a text heavy RPG, the minimum age you probably had to be to somewhat appreciate the game is at least 12. And I'm being generous here. If you were 12 in 1997, you are now 38 years old. I don't know how old you think the average GAF user is, but most GAF users did not find out about FF7 because of Playstation magazines.
I know this post comes off as bait but really.. FF is regarded for FF7. Not FF6, not FF5, not FF9, and especially not 10 which is divisive in its own right

Zelda's known for more than just Ocarina of time, Zelda's loved for ALTTP, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, BOTW, and my beloved Majora's Mask.

90% of the time a FF fan's favorite FF game will be FF7. It's not so certain for Zelda.
This is hilariously wrong. Like all of it. Final Fantasy is regarded for a lot of its entries. A franchise isn't going to continue selling so consistently on the back of a game released 25 years ago. What an absurd claim to make. What is that even based on? Final Fantasy sales are far more consistent than The legend of Zelda.

Trying to imply that Final Fantasy X is a divisive entry is hilariously wrong. It's one of the most beloved entries in the franchise, and pretending that it is "more divisive" than some Zelda entries like Majora's mask or Skyward sword is utterly ridiculous.

90% of FF fans favorite will be FF7? Well I have good news for you: "What is your favorite Final Fantasy?" just so happens to be one of the most asked questions on the internet. I dare you to find even a single poll on the internet that has FF7 even come close to reaching 90%. Go for it.
 
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"How is it that Tetris has maintained its status and longevity while... literally every other game doesn't even come close?"

Different games, different teams, different audience expectations. I don't know what else to tell ya other than meaningless comparisons of vastly dissimilar games are meaningless.
 
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DenchDeckard

Gold Member
I have yet to play BotW (although I do own a Switch) to say anything for sure. But Elden Ring's "more organic" open world exploration is obvious influence from Red Dead Redemption which was improved in GTA V and further in Red Dead Redemption II.

The thing is, I hear nothing about the big influence of BotW something like the: Soul's like, Diablo Clone, Warcraft III like (the RTS-RPG mix), World of Warcraft... impact, which was followed by many actually clones.

you haven't played breath of the wild....but then make a completely wrong statement.

Play breath of the wild for 2 hours or even less...then fire up elden ring and you will understand...

Red dead redemption 2, serioisly ...😆
 
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Kataploom

Gold Member
your personal taste + two and a half specific examples in 6 years time =/= influence

Also BotW itself copied lots of existing open world design and isn't nearly as innovative as something like LoZ (NES) or OoT to begin with. The things it brought to the table might have resonated with people, but its impact feels little. Again, I would prefer it the other way and have more games like Elden Ring, but that's clearly not the reality.
Look ocarina of time is basically ALttP in 3D, I was very vocal about it back in the days, amazing games but was basically what StarFox 64 was to the original, buy for ALttP
 

Dis

Member
How is it that FF still is hot
Even after having 20 years worth of flops and only 2 successes.

While Zelda supposedly has not had this level of backlash and dev hell.
 

Neo_GAF

Drunken Prophet
with the hype for ff16 and totk I've been thinking about this. as a pc first player I always got the sense that the two big console franchises that defined the market were final fantasy and Zelda. I remember in the 1990s hearing non stop about how amazing final fantasy 7 and ocarina of time were, and that continued into the ps2 era, where final fantasy 10 and twilight princess both saw an insane amount of hype.

but im thinking of today, and today, it doesnt feel like the two share that same level of prestige anymore. final fantasy is still obviously a big, major, and loved franchise, but it feels like it lost a lot of its stature from the ps1 days. meanwhile Zelda seems to be an even bigger deal now than it has ever been before.

its even weirder because Zelda is actually much rarer with game releases, but final fantasy has multiple major releases so you would think that final fantasy should be able to stay top of mind easier than something that shows up like once every eight years.

so how exactly did this happen?
your perception completely off the charts.
1. zelda was always available everywhere. ff only became a thing in europe starting with ff7 in 98.
2. ff10 came out in 2001 twilight princess came out in 2006, by that time ff12 and the wii were released.
3. ff fucked itself. SE released so many ff games between 12 and 13 and 15 that... i dont care anymore. so many shitty gacha/mobile/spin-off games... holy fuck.
4. zelda only became a thing after nintendo not starting their game consoles with a mario game with the wii.(ofc zelda was a thing before that too, but not as much as it is now)
 

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
How is it that FF still is hot
Even after having 20 years worth of flops and only 2 successes.

While Zelda supposedly has not had this level of backlash and dev hell.

People want games to be good, they have a soft spot in their heart.
FF5, FF6, FF7, FF9, all amazing imo.
FFX decent.

Then I didn't play any really. A bit of XIV but didn't have time for an MMO.
I wouldnt say they've only hat 2 hits?
 

Tams

Gold Member
Zelda is less complicated.

Final Fantasy has always been a mess if characters to me, and they change so I don't get attached to any of them.

Zelda has simple, easy to understand characters, that often have parallels with real ones or myths from non-Japanese cultures. It's far more universal.

Further, Zelda has always been a direct real-time control game. They are just more fun than turn-based games that many Final Fantasys have been.

There's also never too much to do in a Zelda game.
 
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Scotty W

Member
Zelda was in a low point with Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks, but rebounded somewhat with Link Between Worlds and then hit a new high with BOTW and TOTK

Hopefully FFXVI is the franchises BOTW moment.
There is a key difference. SS was not seen as a low point on release. It released to critical acclaim, but mostly or not, became popular to hate on later on- much like TP, while WW started hated and gained popularity a few years later.

Nintendo probably made a mistake in not waiting longer to rerelease SS.
 

Dis

Member
People want games to be good, they have a soft spot in their heart.
FF5, FF6, FF7, FF9, all amazing imo.
FFX decent.

Then I didn't play any really. A bit of XIV but didn't have time for an MMO.
I wouldnt say they've only hat 2 hits?

No thats what i meant. As an answer to the question of this thread. Everything squaresoft was crazy good.
After the enix merger they had a rough time and only A realm reborn and 7 remake was a success.

But the squaresoft days where so good that FF is still hot.

I want them to win with XVI. It looks phenomenal.
 
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RGB'D

Member
Wrong, FF 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are all very good games.

Zelda is just more consistent.
I don't care about MMO so 11 and 14 are off the list and I can't speak to their quality, but can say that the last thing I wanted from a story driven single player RPG was a MMO. 12, 13 and 15 are hot garbage. 12 is maybe just garbage, but 13 and 15 are definitely hot garbage.
 
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Reactions: Fuz
with the hype for ff16 and totk I've been thinking about this. as a pc first player I always got the sense that the two big console franchises that defined the market were final fantasy and Zelda. I remember in the 1990s hearing non stop about how amazing final fantasy 7 and ocarina of time were, and that continued into the ps2 era, where final fantasy 10 and twilight princess both saw an insane amount of hype.

but im thinking of today, and today, it doesnt feel like the two share that same level of prestige anymore. final fantasy is still obviously a big, major, and loved franchise, but it feels like it lost a lot of its stature from the ps1 days. meanwhile Zelda seems to be an even bigger deal now than it has ever been before.

its even weirder because Zelda is actually much rarer with game releases, but final fantasy has multiple major releases so you would think that final fantasy should be able to stay top of mind easier than something that shows up like once every eight years.

so how exactly did this happen?
Except BotW is the first truly successful Zelda in decades. It was never a big seller. Take out BotW, and FF is the bigger property.

Before BotW, Zelda never sold more than 8m, and that was TP. Most are between 2 and 4 million.
 
X2 and XII were not good games... maybe, if they didn't pivot to a younger hero and stuck to their guns, XII could have been a little better.
12 was a good game. Especially the later version, but the original is fine. X-2 is definitely awful. So is all of the XIII trilogy.
 
The quality has always been there for Zelda. Even the worst Zelda game is an amazing and very polished game.

I don’t play FF but from what I’ve gathered it’s been a bit more hit and miss over time.
FF games are generally very polished, but the idea that every Zelda game is amazing shows me you certainly haven't played every Zelda. It also wasn't nearly as popular pre BotW.
 

RGB'D

Member
XII was better than X,
Maybe if they never focused on Vaan and Penelo it would have been. But they did. And it stunk up the entire game.

Sure X wasn't perfect and Titus was annoying but at the end of the day it was leaps and bounds better than XII.
 
For what it's worth FF VI on the super Nintendo was my favorite. VII was alright, didn't bother with VIII. Loved IX. Hate quit the entire franchise with X
VI is by far the best. I've been around since I got the first for Christmas 1989. I didn't quit the franchise, there's been great stuff since those days, including the story of XI and XIV. XII was a good game (not great, good), the whole XIII trilogy is awful. XV has a lot of good and a lot of bad. For their first try at a modern open world JRPG, I think they did pretty well. It's not a game I love or would play again, it's no VI or IV, but it's ok.

16 otoh, looks incredible, and is the first time im hyped pre-release since XII.
 
Maybe if they never focused on Vaan and Penelo it would have been. But they did. And it stunk up the entire game.

Sure X wasn't perfect and Titus was annoying but at the end of the day it was leaps and bounds better than XII.
Ya, completely disagree. Vaan and Penelo aren't the greatest characters, but they are better than those in 10, and so is their story and world.
I get you hate XII, but the fanbase in general doesn't agree.
 

Mr.ODST

Member
Zelda is one of the main IP's for a console manufacturer, Im sure if Square had a popular console, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy etc would be more popular.

But when people think of nintendo, historically they will think of games like Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros, Donkey Kong etc
 
I don't care about MMO so 11 and 14 are off the list and I can't speak to their quality, but can say that the last thing I wanted from a story driven single player RPG was a MMO. 12, 13 and 15 are hot garbage. 12 is maybe just garbage, but 13 and 15 are definitely hot garbage.
Except even though it's an mmo, you can play it like a (very long) single player game, and enjoy the greatest story ever in gaming. You may have to join a party for dungeons, but no need to talk to them or anything, just do your job and push forward.
I think any real FF fan is seriously missing out by not playing through the story if they have the time.
 
Zelda is one of the main IP's for a console manufacturer, Im sure if Square had a popular console, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy etc would be more popular.

But when people think of nintendo, historically they will think of games like Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros, Donkey Kong etc
except that is, again, incorrect, because pre-BotW, Zelda didn't sell any better than FF. BotW just blew up. Most zelda games, except a few of the best, never cracked 4m. Those are still good sales, but people are rewriting history a bit with Zeldas past "Popularity".
 

Simpkin92

Member
For me it’s the number as dumb as that sounds. Never played hardly any FF before but seeing that 16 it makes me feel like it’s something that would be difficult to jump into at this point. On the other hand Zelda BOTW looked accessible to me when it first came out and was the reason I bought a switch
 
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For me it’s the number as dumb as that sounds. Never played hardly any FF before but seeing that 16 it makes me feel like it’s something that would be difficult to jump into at this point. On the other hand Zelda BOTW looked accessible to me when it first came and and was the reason I bought a switch
except FF has less connective tissue between stories (none), whereas with Zelda, you aren't getting the whole story without having played multiple other games in its timeline. And the timeline is a complete mess.
 
Zelda is more accessible and simple to play. FF is always seen as a more hardcore franchise so I think people always expect more in depth mechanics
 

Teletraan1

Banned
I bought both of these franchises first entries at launch and loved most iterations but I have zero interest in purchasing either of these games latest offerings.

I always prefered 2D zelda. Even to this day my favorite entry is A Link to the Past. For me that is a perfect game. Most of what I was asked to do as a player in BotW I found tedious outside of the half hour worth of enjoyment I got out of playing around with the physics. After that it was just unnecessary obstacle that sucked. Having fun with the combat well your sword is going to break 5x. Exploring this area and need to climb up high, well it is going to start raining just as you are going to reach the top so fuck you. Want to slide down this hill on your shield, fuck you it broke a quarter of the way down the hill. The bite sized dungeons were a symptom of the play on a train mentality that actually hampers my enjoyment of the Switch that has barely ever left a dock. For me BotW was missing a vital component to what made Zelda for me. Dungeons. Just because the latest trailer showed some interior shots a lot of people were claiming dungeons are back baby but I will believe it when it is confirmed. BotW had interiors as well. I wouldn't call them proper dungeons.

Final Fantasy I haven't really enjoyed since X-2 and even that one I liked playing it but the story was weak. Most of the games have been piss easy so when they started adding automation and the inability to select what your party members were doing outside of generic paradigms the combat became insufferably easy and uninteresting. Topple/Break/Stagger mechanics also started seeping into titles where the enemy was a sponge unless you broke them and then you could do massive damage. The issue I have with these mechanics is that they usually result in the boss slumping over and not even attacking you. What could be more boring than that. Also why I get pissed when people say go play Octopath Traveller you dirty Turn Based grandpa. That game series is fucking boring for the reasons I just stated and more (the story sucks balls the NES FF1 had a better story). In older games you were given power ups like Limit Breaks or Trance that gave the player a boost but the enemy would still attack. To me it always seemed like a self fulfilling prophecy that the games became more boring. You had a group of people who did not like turn based with Fomo on these titles, they claimed they were boring so the developers went out of their way to appease these people by adding things that only made the games more boring. Now these same types gaslight people into thinking that FF is this always changing thing to justify having DMC combat where you control one person in what was the industry standard for turn based, party oriented gameplay. Even the first game let you select what your party composition would be. Even games where you didn't have defined jobs for characters you could equip them a certain way to have them perform these jobs.

Neither of these titles really seem to offer the experience of what made their predecessors something we are talking about almost 40 years later. Probably a symptom of needing to put out titles over 40 years and not sell you the same game 16x. It is fine I play plenty of games per year that can scratch the itch that these games once did.
 

skit_data

Member
Disclaimer because I haven’t played all games in both series, but this is how I see it:

Nintendo has delivered a very consistent, high- to very high average quality Zelda experience and usually kept innovating upon the formula in smart ways (i.e the basic Zelda formula is always there but they introduce one or two new mechanics that feels fresh). One core concept of Zelda games is the puzzles and they’re usually the most satisfying aspect of the game. Puzzles are usually either too easy or too obtuse but Zelda often manages to walk that thin line keeps you progressing at just the right pace. I played some BotW and my last interaction with a Zelda game was Wind Waker and Twilight Princess and I immediately felt at home in most aspects (outside of weapon durability, but after a while I realized you get new weapons all the time). The gameplay felt similar enough for me to keep progressing without any major hiccups, despite not having any previous experience of the game.

Final Fantasy have changed a lot with each installment, sometimes throwing the baby out with the bathwater (something Nintendo has been very cautious with in Zelda) by changing how battles work, how equipment and materia works etc. In some ways you never quite know what kind of game you will get when a new Final Fantasy game releases. They revolve around some very loose concepts in terms of theme and story but not much else. In some ways it makes Final Fantasy more interesting IMO, but I’ll never forget going into FF8 after playing FF7 and how it was something else entirely which led me to drop the game. I made my way back when FF13 released because it looked like FF7 but the linear progression and battle system was now boring as fuck until you’re 35h into the game and all of a sudden the game opens up (don’t remember if its that many hours but I remember it being very very far into the game). You never quite knew which kind of FF game was releasing; a great one or one of those that makes you a bit pissed because they for some reason took out the best aspects of the previous one.

Nowadays it’s easier to get a feel for what kind of Final Fantasy game is releasing and to me personally FF16 is definitely looking like one of those that I’ll find great but once again it’s definitely not similar to my favourite FF games (6 and 7) but something else entirely in terms of gameplay and aesthetics so I’m prepared to just approach the game like a blank slate. Zelda on the other hand has a wierd way of making your previous experience with the series feed into your experience with the new game, mostly in the way to approach and solve puzzles.
 
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poodaddy

Member
Zelda games are consistently great. Final Fantasy games are inconsistently good, sometimes shit, and were once great. That's it and that's all.
EDIT:. What I'm getting at is that Nomura is a fucking talentless hack and should be locked in his belt basement and kept far from the FF franchise. That alone would completely invigorate the IP. The day that ridiculous man child retires will be an incredible day for the industry.
 
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