yamaci17
Member
just give a sharpening slider, then. i know, it sounds impossible
but it is possible
shocking, right?
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Horizon Forbidden West gets a free major update - out now
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but it is possible
shocking, right?
yamaci17
Member
some extra educational comparisons
stationary
https://imgsli.com/MTExMDEy/1/2
movement
https://imgsli.com/MTExMDEz/0/3
you can try different combinations, 8 pics are included
stationary
https://imgsli.com/MTExMDEy/1/2
movement
https://imgsli.com/MTExMDEz/0/3
you can try different combinations, 8 pics are included
rofif
Gold Member
It’s sharpening for sure. But at the same time the shimmering is almost gone so at least that’s something.yeah, sorry, initially i thought the first photo had foliage in very distant place, so i wanted to reiterate with a better shot but you replied earlier, sorry on my end
in 1st comp, davy is the native 4k
in 2nd comp jack is the native 4k
it proves that 1250p+sharpening can appear "better" than native 4k for most people. and i have nothing against that, don't get me wrong. but of course, if we apply the same sharpening to actual 4k mode, then we can have a proper comparison;
and this is 1250p+sharp versus 4k+sharp.
https://imgsli.com/MTEwOTcw
this is the comparison where you're %100 sure about the labels. if so, performance mode looks "sharper" than resolution mode. how can that be? with a sharpening filter, obviously. very intense, high amounts of sharpening, actually, not even a subtle one. they could've applied the same sharpening filter for resolution mode, and then you would think its 6k or something (actually, sharpening filters work better the more pixel input you have)
Anyone checked if shimmering is gone in 4k mode too? It was there slightly
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Kilau
Gold Member
Yeah, I don’t know how the discussion became all about sharpening because that wasn’t the issue with performance mode prior to the update. It was noisy and full of I assume scaling artifacts.
Now it looks cleaner, if it’s over sharpened then so be it but I don’t notice it.
Nobody needs to tell me to get my eyes checked btw. My vision is awful.
MasterCornholio
Member
Because Alex said all they did was increase the sharpening. That’s how the discussion started.
Kilau
Gold Member
I’m not an expert but wouldn’t that just enhance the issues that were already present and not hide them?
MasterCornholio
Member
Like make the scaling artifacts look worse? I heard that can happen. Seems like they did more than just increase the sharpening.
Is it that bad? I only played the first game.
Kilau
Gold Member
Yeah, just from experience with TV settings when you increase the sharpness it always makes things look worse and highlights noise in the scene. I've always set sharpness to zero. Maybe it works differently when the sharpness filter is applied by the renderer/engine/whatever.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Right, because Alex is pretty much....not very smart.
There's clearly a lot more going on than just some sharpening filter. He says some really dumb things
In your opinion, does the game look as good as the original trailer or was that just bullcrap?One thing that continues to impress me, and this is something I bitched out last year in regards to TLOU2 and Ratchet, is Aloy's character model. It looks just as good as it does in cutscenes unlike TLOU2 where they completely gut the LOD as Ellie moves away from the camera. Here, Aloy looks like LOD 0 regardless of whether shes on foot or on horseback or in a cutscene. Just an extraordinary looking character model that you can enjoy at all times. Not just cutscenes.
Now please, put the hero lighting back in. It kicks in sometimes in some areas like this and looks marvelous. Ive found several areas in the game where the god rays in the forest mess up their attempt to hide the hero lighting, and you can see how it looks without any hit to performance. I hate Digital Foundry nerds.
MasterCornholio
Member
Could be true but it also seems like they made changes to the reconstruction. Not sure if they changed the method or they just increased the base resolution.
MasterCornholio
Member
I think someone did a comparison to it. From what I’ve seen I wouldn’t call it CGI.
TheRedRiders
Member
Yes exactly.
They definitely reworked or tweaked their TAA solution, sharpening filter is present but it’s also just not enough to solve this issue.
MasterCornholio
Member
Are there different ways to do CBR?
sankt-Antonio
Member
There's videos of prominent Youtube TV calibrators that basically dissed HFW use of sharpness etc. in great detail. Even if it sounds counterintuitive, there is such a thing as "too sharp", it creates visual noise that you don't want, halo artifacts around sharp edges etc. Performance mode is waaayy too sharp atm.
That's just a fact - there is a reason why quality mode looks the way it does (now) and why multi billion dollar IP from Hollywood don't over sharpen their content, it looks distracting on good hardware. You think Toy Story 4 could not have had a more aggressive sharpness pass applied where every single frame is rendered for hours?
It didn’t look the same to me, but I just wanted opinions from people who played it.
Complistic
Member
Gonna wait for that 40fps mode to drop since I have a 120hz tv, but I'm for sure gonna start a new game+ then.
MasterCornholio
Member
Depends if you looked at the fotomode thread or not. I mean I'm not seeing something on the level of the Slipspace engine trailer or anything similar.
You did mention bullshit so I obviously thought of false marketing with render farms.
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TheRedRiders
Member
Not that I’m aware of.
I don’t think they’re using CBR at all, as a lot of the shimmering was a result of that. Maybe they replaced it with a native resolution, along with a tweaked TAA system and then a sharpening filter.
These are just hunches of mine but we’ll see, hopefully GG can elaborate further. Regardless, the final IQ looks significantly better than before.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Why are you trying to get me banned.
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ChiefDada
Member
But this isn't the case with the new performance patch. There is no artifacting when viewing on tv from normal distances.
As someone who's playing on an oled, the performance mode offers much better clarity in motion than the fidelity mode because the detailed is lost when moving.
Maybe they'll include more than we're assuming with the upcoming 40fps/VRR patch. Otherwise, what's the reason for not rolling out a similar updae for fidelity to reinstate pre patch sharpening?
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Isn't the reason for decreasing sharpening because people were not happy with it?
Rayderism
Member
I guess I'm just weird, but I really loved the sharpness that fidelity mode had at launch. "Crispy" was the word that kept coming to mind when I saw it. To me, fidelity took a major hit when they backed sharpness off in later patches. Really wish they would add a slider or toggle or whatever to let me have that crispiness back.
Before this last patch, performance mode looked pretty bad. Staticky, fuzzy and shaggy were the words I used. Now, performance mode looks great. While you CAN see some differences between fidelity and performance, they are mostly negligible compared to what it was before. Now, it's more a choice of the "cinematic" 30fps framerate or a buttery smooth 60fps.
I played through HZD when if first launched, before all the patches and I went with fidelity because performance looked so bad. I don't usually play these sorts of games more than once, but IF I do play this again, it will be in this much improved performance mode. But most likely, I'll wait for the VRR update to possibly give it another full run. Still, I might do a few of the skipped side-quest stuff from my original playthrough, just to enjoy the fixed perf mode.
Before this last patch, performance mode looked pretty bad. Staticky, fuzzy and shaggy were the words I used. Now, performance mode looks great. While you CAN see some differences between fidelity and performance, they are mostly negligible compared to what it was before. Now, it's more a choice of the "cinematic" 30fps framerate or a buttery smooth 60fps.
I played through HZD when if first launched, before all the patches and I went with fidelity because performance looked so bad. I don't usually play these sorts of games more than once, but IF I do play this again, it will be in this much improved performance mode. But most likely, I'll wait for the VRR update to possibly give it another full run. Still, I might do a few of the skipped side-quest stuff from my original playthrough, just to enjoy the fixed perf mode.
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kyliethicc
Member
Technically there are, yes. Kinda.
Like normal CB 4K is rendering 1920 x 2160 per frame, alternating pixels on the X axis.
But they can do it on the Y axis instead, or on both axes, etc. Plus DRS can be used.
And that’s just for the normal 2x2 CB rendering, but there’s other possibilities, too.
Swift_Star
Banned
The “forgotten” game is surely getting more and more updates over time.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That guy sucks...you can tell he can barely contain himself everytime he can subtly gloat about PC superiority over next gen console. Especially when a ps5 game comes to the PC, his glee is evident every time.Why is Alex Bugaga always downplaying Playstation games, but gets excited whenever they release on pc?
I
I mean gameplay. Photomode has better image quality then the game running. That water scene looks better then any gameplay I have watched. But it’s hard to judge from videos.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
But it wasnt 1800p, it was 1800p checkerboard. so 2.8 million pixels instead of the native 5.6 million pixels. Way close to 1080p than 1800p. And I was sure that there was some dynamic resolution in play because it looked far worse than Ghost and Days Gone which were using 1800 cb on the Pro.
And I never said, it was only due to 1800p, there was more going on especially with textures in settlements that ive talked about several times. I wouldnt be surprised if they were using VRS in this mode. It had a very series s feel to it.
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
If you are interested, i made some posts about it in this thread.
The first trailer was likely a target render, but they said it was captured from a PS5 so who knows.
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I'm still enjoying it in fidelity mode. Not everyone is 60 fps or die
MasterCornholio
Member
There was definitely gameplay in it or at least it’s gameplay captured from different angles to make it look more cinematic.
Starforce2005
Gold Member
VRRed 40 fps is pretty good, but why not 45?
A Jump from 30 to 45 is a much more perceived jump compare to from 45 to 60
A Jump from 30 to 45 is a much more perceived jump compare to from 45 to 60
Swift_Star
Banned
Because in frametimes 40 is actually the middle point between 30 and 60, not 45. There’s an explanation about this but I’m too lazy to look it up. And 40 is also compatible with 120Hz displays.
The 40fps mode won’t use VRR, I’m betting that will be a VRR mode and a 40fps mode.
sankt-Antonio
Member
There are places where it’s jarringly obvious, I’ll try to capture them next time I play the game.
One example I can think off in my head that I noticed rigtvaway are the blue canisters on the flying mount - that artifact behavior can occur on a pattern of rocks on the whole screen , it’s not present in quality mode. I’m going off memory here …
Vick
Member
Yeah, that was the brightness fluctuations issue they solved. It's not the case now.
Now i'm back fifteen years ago, when i was introduced to plasmas and educated on correct image over a punchy one, before decades of top gamma purchases and Blu-Ray transfers reviews and calibrations and service menu mods to $4,000 panels, like the one i use with Forbidden West considered by some to this day the best panel ever produced, and with much higher motion resolution than any TV on the market..
None of those issues you listed are prominent when playing the game on a properly adjusted set.
It's not. It may look like it is in screenshots, but once you move the camera TAA + these exact sharpness settings they used create the image 99.9% of users are in love with.
This is such nonsense, Toy Story 4 and Hollywood content are not rendered at the Horizon Performance Mode resolution, nor are they using the game AA solutions.
Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations. And even state-of-the-art transfers of movies, digital or shot on film, all of them use forms of sharpening in the final Digital Intermediate. Every single James Cameron Lowry/Reliance remaster supervised by himself, Avatar included, uses prominent and aggressive sharpening.
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sankt-Antonio
Member
"Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations" that's right, you finally get what the issue here is. That's why there was/is debate on BD remasters still... and finally you understand the problem. Perf mode has this too. Quality Production / reference BD Discs don't have this over sharpening.
kyliethicc
Member
30 FPS is 33.33 ms per frame
(+/- 8.33 ms)
40 FPS is 25 ms per frame
(+/- 8.33 ms)
60 FPS is 16.66 ms per frame
40 divides into 120 evenly is all, so that’s why it can be used on 120 Hz TVs.
Its like how technically games could run at 20 FPS on a 60 Hz TV. (But nobody would want that, too few.)
And 40 Hz modes don’t need VRR.
Its just the new 30 Hz mode for 120 Hz TVs, instead of 60 Hz.
A VRR mode would be for letting the performance mode run uncapped over 60 Hz.
Agreed.
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Vick
Member
Difference is that those EE and DNR masters look ghastly/vomit inducing while Forbidden West Performance Mode looks stunning. Let alone for being a console game with that outrageous graphic fidelity while rendering 60 frames every second.
Every second of playtime now i'm afraid they would tone down sharpness, destroying therefore the perfect balance achieved between their native resolution, their TAA solution and their sharpening.
Every single transfer does, "Reference BD Discs" pre and post DI use forms of sharpening.
TonyK
Member
Tested yesterday after several months without trying it. Quality mode looks as good as I remember. Performance mode had a clear improve because before it was unplayable for me due to the over sharpening, but now is perfectly playable. It looks good in performance mode but too PS4 for my tastes, I still prefer quality mode. Looking forward to that 40fps mode for returning and finishing the game (I stopped playing it because Elden).
Slothbeing1209
Member
Yes. Especially when doing puzzle. She literally annouces everything before you see things and keep repeat it if you made a mistake and do the puzzle again.
Short answer - Yes.
However CBR is one of the more misused terms on the internet in terms of what it's "supposed" to mean, vs what everyone's different interpretations are, and without explaining details short form answer above may be misunderstood also.
CBR as implemented in 'most' commercial releases does two things.
1) rendering the scene at half-rate in a checkerboard pattern (essentially - equivalent to a fullscreen VRS set to half-rate - SteamDeck has this as an actual driver option now).
2) reconstruct the missing half-samples in some manner (this is different from VRS as the point is to actually fill the gaps with meaningful data instead of just duplicating samples like VRS does).
Step 1) is typically done by abusing MSAA sampling patterns - making it even more similar to VRS. This is especially applicable to hardware without explicit extensions for CBR - so base PS4, XB1 consoles etc. But it doesn't have to be. I know of at least 1 or 2 titles that do it very differently, and the CB pattern isn't a cross-hatch of 4 pixels that most people associate with the technique, it uses bigger blocks. Also step 1 may or may not do only shading at half-rate (1:1 with VRS), or do all of pixel filling at half rate.
Step 2) is the same thing every other reconstruction does, it will usually leverage frame-history and pixel-velocity to reproject samples from previous frames. Ie. with some work you could literally run DLSS or FSR reconstruction as second step of CBR.
The reason this last bit is important - CBR isn't 'inherently different/inferior/superior' to other forms of temporal reconstruction - in most implementations it IS a form of temporal reconstruction, just with different location/arrangement of input samples. Early insights with CBR suggested that cross-hatch pattern made reconstruction more perceptually acceptable. Research in the recent years would suggest that wasn't necessarily the case. Basically - starting with 'X' number of samples and reconstructing to '2X' - the quality of final result is orthogonal to the grid that 'X' was arranged on (there may be some computational trade-offs*, but with modern hw they don't seem to be meaningful enough to matter anymore).
*One aspect that CBR allows that other methods of reconstruction do not, is having access to full-resolution depth/ID buffers during reconstruction. I'm not deep enough in the domain to say whether that still offers meaningful advantage to potential quality though.
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ChiefDada
Member
No from what I remember people weren't happy about the performance mode due to poor IQ caused by inadequate AA. The checkerboard and sharpening artifacts were an issue because of the broken AA.
The original fidelity mode was praised by DF and others specifically because of the crazy levels of scene detail, which the sharpening was able to bring out. Why they decided to remove sharpness from 4k mode is beyond me.
ABrokenToy
Member
What magic they worked is fucking ace. Game is amazing now in performance. Looks just as good as resolution mode, meaning you'd have to be a pixel peeper to tell the difference. Just the gain in motion resolution when moving the camera is worth the price of admission alone. Fuck it looks so good.
Fools idol
Gold Member
what is this wizardry.. the game went from an 8 to an 11 graphically with this patch
Trogdor1123
Member
Any more info on what all changes in ng+?