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Horizon Forbidden West gets a free major update - out now

yamaci17

Member
Exactly, go read OT and how many people complained about the game blurrier post patch, asking Guerrilla to restore the original sharpness. You can even find examples on this very Thread:



And that was before the new TAA, with shimmering all over the place, and also before they fixed the sharpness brightness fluctuations.


I've read probably hundreds of posts between Reddit and here, 99.9% of people are not just satisfied with the mode now but actually over the moon with the way it looks.
just give a sharpening slider, then. i know, it sounds impossible

but it is possible



shocking, right?
 

rofif

Gold Member
yeah, sorry, initially i thought the first photo had foliage in very distant place, so i wanted to reiterate with a better shot but you replied earlier, sorry on my end

in 1st comp, davy is the native 4k
in 2nd comp jack is the native 4k

it proves that 1250p+sharpening can appear "better" than native 4k for most people. and i have nothing against that, don't get me wrong. but of course, if we apply the same sharpening to actual 4k mode, then we can have a proper comparison;

and this is 1250p+sharp versus 4k+sharp.

https://imgsli.com/MTEwOTcw



this is the comparison where you're %100 sure about the labels. if so, performance mode looks "sharper" than resolution mode. how can that be? with a sharpening filter, obviously. very intense, high amounts of sharpening, actually, not even a subtle one. they could've applied the same sharpening filter for resolution mode, and then you would think its 6k or something (actually, sharpening filters work better the more pixel input you have)
It’s sharpening for sure. But at the same time the shimmering is almost gone so at least that’s something.
Anyone checked if shimmering is gone in 4k mode too? It was there slightly
 
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Kilau

Member
It’s sharpening for sure. But at the same time the shimmering is almost gone so at least that’s something.
Anyone checked if shimmering is gone in 4k mode too? It was there slightly
Yeah, I don’t know how the discussion became all about sharpening because that wasn’t the issue with performance mode prior to the update. It was noisy and full of I assume scaling artifacts.

Now it looks cleaner, if it’s over sharpened then so be it but I don’t notice it.

Nobody needs to tell me to get my eyes checked btw. My vision is awful.
 

MasterCornholio

Gold Member
Yeah, I don’t know how the discussion became all about sharpening because that wasn’t the issue with performance mode prior to the update. It was noisy and full of I assume scaling artifacts.

Now it looks cleaner, if it’s over sharpened then so be it but I don’t notice it.

Nobody needs to tell me to get my eyes checked btw. My vision is awful.

Because Alex said all they did was increase the sharpening. That’s how the discussion started.
 

Kilau

Member
Like make the scaling artifacts look worse? I heard that can happen. Seems like they did more than just increase the sharpening.
Yeah, just from experience with TV settings when you increase the sharpness it always makes things look worse and highlights noise in the scene. I've always set sharpness to zero. Maybe it works differently when the sharpness filter is applied by the renderer/engine/whatever.
 

Corndog

Member
One thing that continues to impress me, and this is something I bitched out last year in regards to TLOU2 and Ratchet, is Aloy's character model. It looks just as good as it does in cutscenes unlike TLOU2 where they completely gut the LOD as Ellie moves away from the camera. Here, Aloy looks like LOD 0 regardless of whether shes on foot or on horseback or in a cutscene. Just an extraordinary looking character model that you can enjoy at all times. Not just cutscenes.



Now please, put the hero lighting back in. It kicks in sometimes in some areas like this and looks marvelous. Ive found several areas in the game where the god rays in the forest mess up their attempt to hide the hero lighting, and you can see how it looks without any hit to performance. I hate Digital Foundry nerds.
In your opinion, does the game look as good as the original trailer or was that just bullcrap?
 

MasterCornholio

Gold Member
Yeah, just from experience with TV settings when you increase the sharpness it always makes things look worse and highlights noise in the scene. I've always set sharpness to zero. Maybe it works differently when the sharpness filter is applied by the renderer/engine/whatever.

Could be true but it also seems like they made changes to the reconstruction. Not sure if they changed the method or they just increased the base resolution.
 
Exactly, go read OT and how many people complained about the game blurrier post patch, asking Guerrilla to restore the original sharpness. You can even find examples on this very Thread:



And that was before the new TAA, with shimmering all over the place, and also before they fixed the sharpness brightness fluctuations.


I've read probably hundreds of posts between Reddit and here, 99.9% of people are not just satisfied with the mode now but actually over the moon with the way it looks.
There's videos of prominent Youtube TV calibrators that basically dissed HFW use of sharpness etc. in great detail. Even if it sounds counterintuitive, there is such a thing as "too sharp", it creates visual noise that you don't want, halo artifacts around sharp edges etc. Performance mode is waaayy too sharp atm.
That's just a fact - there is a reason why quality mode looks the way it does (now) and why multi billion dollar IP from Hollywood don't over sharpen their content, it looks distracting on good hardware. You think Toy Story 4 could not have had a more aggressive sharpness pass applied where every single frame is rendered for hours?
 

MasterCornholio

Gold Member
It didn’t look the same to me, but I just wanted opinions from people who played it.

Depends if you looked at the fotomode thread or not. I mean I'm not seeing something on the level of the Slipspace engine trailer or anything similar.

You did mention bullshit so I obviously thought of false marketing with render farms.
 
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Are there different ways to do CBR?
Not that I’m aware of.

I don’t think they’re using CBR at all, as a lot of the shimmering was a result of that. Maybe they replaced it with a native resolution, along with a tweaked TAA system and then a sharpening filter.

These are just hunches of mine but we’ll see, hopefully GG can elaborate further. Regardless, the final IQ looks significantly better than before.
 

ChiefDada

Member
Even if it sounds counterintuitive, there is such a thing as "too sharp", it creates visual noise that you don't want, halo artifacts around sharp edges etc.

But this isn't the case with the new performance patch. There is no artifacting when viewing on tv from normal distances.
As someone who's playing on an oled, the performance mode offers much better clarity in motion than the fidelity mode because the detailed is lost when moving.

Maybe they'll include more than we're assuming with the upcoming 40fps/VRR patch. Otherwise, what's the reason for not rolling out a similar updae for fidelity to reinstate pre patch sharpening?
 

Woggleman

Member
Now that the game seems to be getting a second wind they probably want first time players to have a good first impression.
 
But this isn't the case with the new performance patch. There is no artifacting when viewing on tv from normal distances.
As someone who's playing on an oled, the performance mode offers much better clarity in motion than the fidelity mode because the detailed is lost when moving.

Maybe they'll include more than we're assuming with the upcoming 40fps/VRR patch. Otherwise, what's the reason for not rolling out a similar updae for fidelity to reinstate pre patch sharpening?
Isn't the reason for decreasing sharpening because people were not happy with it?
 

Rayderism

Member
I guess I'm just weird, but I really loved the sharpness that fidelity mode had at launch. "Crispy" was the word that kept coming to mind when I saw it. To me, fidelity took a major hit when they backed sharpness off in later patches. Really wish they would add a slider or toggle or whatever to let me have that crispiness back.

Before this last patch, performance mode looked pretty bad. Staticky, fuzzy and shaggy were the words I used. Now, performance mode looks great. While you CAN see some differences between fidelity and performance, they are mostly negligible compared to what it was before. Now, it's more a choice of the "cinematic" 30fps framerate or a buttery smooth 60fps.

I played through HZD when if first launched, before all the patches and I went with fidelity because performance looked so bad. I don't usually play these sorts of games more than once, but IF I do play this again, it will be in this much improved performance mode. But most likely, I'll wait for the VRR update to possibly give it another full run. Still, I might do a few of the skipped side-quest stuff from my original playthrough, just to enjoy the fixed perf mode.
 
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kyliethicc

Member
Not that I’m aware of.
Technically there are, yes. Kinda.

Like normal CB 4K is rendering 1920 x 2160 per frame, alternating pixels on the X axis.

But they can do it on the Y axis instead, or on both axes, etc. Plus DRS can be used.

And that’s just for the normal 2x2 CB rendering, but there’s other possibilities, too.
 

Corndog

Member
I
Depends if you looked at the fotomode thread or not. I mean I'm not seeing something on the level of the Slipspace engine trailer or anything similar.

You did mention bullshit so I obviously thought of false marketing with render farms.
I mean gameplay. Photomode has better image quality then the game running. That water scene looks better then any gameplay I have watched. But it’s hard to judge from videos.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Still think it was because it was 1800p?
But it wasnt 1800p, it was 1800p checkerboard. so 2.8 million pixels instead of the native 5.6 million pixels. Way close to 1080p than 1800p. And I was sure that there was some dynamic resolution in play because it looked far worse than Ghost and Days Gone which were using 1800 cb on the Pro.

And I never said, it was only due to 1800p, there was more going on especially with textures in settlements that ive talked about several times. I wouldnt be surprised if they were using VRS in this mode. It had a very series s feel to it.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
I

I mean gameplay. Photomode has better image quality then the game running. That water scene looks better then any gameplay I have watched. But it’s hard to judge from videos.
If you are interested, i made some posts about it in this thread.


The first trailer was likely a target render, but they said it was captured from a PS5 so who knows.
 
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MasterCornholio

Gold Member
I

I mean gameplay. Photomode has better image quality then the game running. That water scene looks better then any gameplay I have watched. But it’s hard to judge from videos.

There was definitely gameplay in it or at least it’s gameplay captured from different angles to make it look more cinematic.
 

Swift_Star

Member
VRRed 40 fps is pretty good, but why not 45?

A Jump from 30 to 45 is a much more perceived jump compare to from 45 to 60
Because in frametimes 40 is actually the middle point between 30 and 60, not 45. There’s an explanation about this but I’m too lazy to look it up. And 40 is also compatible with 120Hz displays.
The 40fps mode won’t use VRR, I’m betting that will be a VRR mode and a 40fps mode.
 
But this isn't the case with the new performance patch. There is no artifacting when viewing on tv from normal distances.
As someone who's playing on an oled, the performance mode offers much better clarity in motion than the fidelity mode because the detailed is lost when moving.

Maybe they'll include more than we're assuming with the upcoming 40fps/VRR patch. Otherwise, what's the reason for not rolling out a similar updae for fidelity to reinstate pre patch sharpening?
There are places where it’s jarringly obvious, I’ll try to capture them next time I play the game.

One example I can think off in my head that I noticed rigtvaway are the blue canisters on the flying mount - that artifact behavior can occur on a pattern of rocks on the whole screen , it’s not present in quality mode. I’m going off memory here …
 

Vick

Member
There's videos of prominent Youtube TV calibrators that basically dissed HFW use of sharpness etc. in great detail.
Yeah, that was the brightness fluctuations issue they solved. It's not the case now.

Even if it sounds counterintuitive, there is such a thing as "too sharp", it creates visual noise that you don't want, halo artifacts around sharp edges etc.
Now i'm back fifteen years ago, when i was introduced to plasmas and educated on correct image over a punchy one, before decades of top gamma purchases and Blu-Ray transfers reviews and calibrations and service menu mods to $4,000 panels, like the one i use with Forbidden West considered by some to this day the best panel ever produced, and with much higher motion resolution than any TV on the market..

None of those issues you listed are prominent when playing the game on a properly adjusted set.

Performance mode is waaayy too sharp atm.
It's not. It may look like it is in screenshots, but once you move the camera TAA + these exact sharpness settings they used create the image 99.9% of users are in love with.

That's just a fact - there is a reason why quality mode looks the way it does (now) and why multi billion dollar IP from Hollywood don't over sharpen their content, it looks distracting on good hardware. You think Toy Story 4 could not have had a more aggressive sharpness pass applied where every single frame is rendered for hours?
This is such nonsense, Toy Story 4 and Hollywood content are not rendered at the Horizon Performance Mode resolution, nor are they using the game AA solutions.

Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations. And even state-of-the-art transfers of movies, digital or shot on film, all of them use forms of sharpening in the final Digital Intermediate. Every single James Cameron Lowry/Reliance remaster supervised by himself, Avatar included, uses prominent and aggressive sharpening.
 
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Yeah, that was the brightness fluctuations issue they solved. It's not the case now.


Now i'm back fifteen years ago, when i was introduced to plasmas and educated on correct image over a punchy one, before decades of top gamma purchases and Blu-Ray transfers reviews and calibrations and service menu mods to $4,000 panels, like the one i use with Forbidden West considered by some to this day the best panel ever produced, and with much higher motion resolution than any TV on the market..

None of those issues you listed are prominent when playing the game on a properly adjusted set.


It's not. It may look like it is in screenshots, but once you move the camera TAA + these exact sharpness settings they used create the image 99.9% of users are in love with.


This is such nonsense, Toy Story 4 and Hollywood content are not rendered at the Horizon Performance Mode resolution, nor are they using the game AA solutions.

Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations. And even state-of-the-art transfers of movies, digital or shot on film, all of them use forms of sharpening in the final Digital Intermediate. Every single James Cameron Lowry/Reliance remaster supervised by himself, Avatar included, uses prominent and aggressive sharpening.
"Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations" that's right, you finally get what the issue here is. That's why there was/is debate on BD remasters still... and finally you understand the problem. Perf mode has this too. Quality Production / reference BD Discs don't have this over sharpening.
 

kyliethicc

Member
VRRed 40 fps is pretty good, but why not 45?

A Jump from 30 to 45 is a much more perceived jump compare to from 45 to 60
Because in frametimes 40 is actually the middle point between 30 and 60, not 45. There’s an explanation about this but I’m too lazy to look it up. And 40 is also compatible with 120Hz displays.
30 FPS is 33.33 ms per frame
(+/- 8.33 ms)
40 FPS is 25 ms per frame
(+/- 8.33 ms)
60 FPS is 16.66 ms per frame

40 divides into 120 evenly is all, so that’s why it can be used on 120 Hz TVs.

Its like how technically games could run at 20 FPS on a 60 Hz TV. (But nobody would want that, too few.)

And 40 Hz modes don’t need VRR.

Its just the new 30 Hz mode for 120 Hz TVs, instead of 60 Hz.

A VRR mode would be for letting the performance mode run uncapped over 60 Hz.

The 40fps mode won’t use VRR, I’m betting that will be a VRR mode and a 40fps mode.
Agreed.
 
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Vick

Member
"Hollywood Majors also used a much cheaper and cheesy super aggressive sharpening tool for decades on BD masters Pre-DI, ruining an absolutely awful amount of home video presentations" that's right, you finally get what the issue here is. That's why there was/is debate on BD remasters still... and finally you understand the problem. Perf mode has this too.


Difference is that those EE and DNR masters look ghastly/vomit inducing while Forbidden West Performance Mode looks stunning. Let alone for being a console game with that outrageous graphic fidelity while rendering 60 frames every second.

Every second of playtime now i'm afraid they would tone down sharpness, destroying therefore the perfect balance achieved between their native resolution, their TAA solution and their sharpening.

Quality Production / reference BD Discs don't have this over sharpening.
Every single transfer does, "Reference BD Discs" pre and post DI use forms of sharpening.
 

TonyK

Member
Tested yesterday after several months without trying it. Quality mode looks as good as I remember. Performance mode had a clear improve because before it was unplayable for me due to the over sharpening, but now is perfectly playable. It looks good in performance mode but too PS4 for my tastes, I still prefer quality mode. Looking forward to that 40fps mode for returning and finishing the game (I stopped playing it because Elden).
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Are there different ways to do CBR?
Short answer - Yes.

However CBR is one of the more misused terms on the internet in terms of what it's "supposed" to mean, vs what everyone's different interpretations are, and without explaining details short form answer above may be misunderstood also.

CBR as implemented in 'most' commercial releases does two things.
1) rendering the scene at half-rate in a checkerboard pattern (essentially - equivalent to a fullscreen VRS set to half-rate - SteamDeck has this as an actual driver option now).
2) reconstruct the missing half-samples in some manner (this is different from VRS as the point is to actually fill the gaps with meaningful data instead of just duplicating samples like VRS does).

Step 1) is typically done by abusing MSAA sampling patterns - making it even more similar to VRS. This is especially applicable to hardware without explicit extensions for CBR - so base PS4, XB1 consoles etc. But it doesn't have to be. I know of at least 1 or 2 titles that do it very differently, and the CB pattern isn't a cross-hatch of 4 pixels that most people associate with the technique, it uses bigger blocks. Also step 1 may or may not do only shading at half-rate (1:1 with VRS), or do all of pixel filling at half rate.
Step 2) is the same thing every other reconstruction does, it will usually leverage frame-history and pixel-velocity to reproject samples from previous frames. Ie. with some work you could literally run DLSS or FSR reconstruction as second step of CBR.

The reason this last bit is important - CBR isn't 'inherently different/inferior/superior' to other forms of temporal reconstruction - in most implementations it IS a form of temporal reconstruction, just with different location/arrangement of input samples. Early insights with CBR suggested that cross-hatch pattern made reconstruction more perceptually acceptable. Research in the recent years would suggest that wasn't necessarily the case. Basically - starting with 'X' number of samples and reconstructing to '2X' - the quality of final result is orthogonal to the grid that 'X' was arranged on (there may be some computational trade-offs*, but with modern hw they don't seem to be meaningful enough to matter anymore).

*One aspect that CBR allows that other methods of reconstruction do not, is having access to full-resolution depth/ID buffers during reconstruction. I'm not deep enough in the domain to say whether that still offers meaningful advantage to potential quality though.
 
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ChiefDada

Member
Isn't the reason for decreasing sharpening because people were not happy with it?

No from what I remember people weren't happy about the performance mode due to poor IQ caused by inadequate AA. The checkerboard and sharpening artifacts were an issue because of the broken AA.

The original fidelity mode was praised by DF and others specifically because of the crazy levels of scene detail, which the sharpening was able to bring out. Why they decided to remove sharpness from 4k mode is beyond me.
 
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