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[discoalucard]

If I had one qualm, it'd probably be that not a single Pokemon game made it onto the entire list. Or even a game like it! For such a prominent sub-genre. you'd think to have at least included a "monster battling RPG" or two in the master list. Is the editing team just not super into that kind of game?

More or less, I'm not really a big Pokemon fan at all, and none of the rest of the contributors brought it up either. There are admittedly a few types of games that are blind spots like that (no "hunting" games, Nippon Ichi strategy games, dunno if anyone feels strong about Musou games but none of those.)

Is there a list of the honourable mentions anywhere?

If not is Spelunky mentioned at all? Unlike other games (Tetris!) I can't see what would have taken it's place based on the similarities between them but naturally it's easy to miss something amongst 200 games many of which I'm not overly familiar with.

Good to see TxK on there and I'm glad they went with Link's Awakening too.

Yeah, here they are, in the order they appear in the book:

See alsos:
Balloon Fight
Flicky
Ibb and Obb
Robotron 2084
Space Invaders Extreme
Internal Section
Super Mario World
Wario Land 4
Rayman Legends
Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Rayman
1001 Spikes
Rolling Thunder II
Strider 2
Shadow of the Ninja
Ninja Five-O
Ufouria
Castlevania III
Ghouls n' Ghosts
Mega Man 2
Shinobi 3D
Freedom Planet
Flashback
Heart of Darkness
Shantae and the Pirate's Curse
Metroid Fusion
Castlevania Order of Ecclesia
La Mulana
Spelunky
Muramasa: The Demon Blade
Legend of Zelda
Blaster Master
Battle of Olympus
Zelda: Link to the Past
Illusion of Gaia
Final Fantasy Adventure
Hack n' Slash
Nayuta no Kiseki
Brave Fencer Musashi
Legacy of Kain: Defiance
Zelda: Wind Waker
ICO
Drakengard 3
Dark Souls
Shenmue
Yakuza 2
Bully
Contra: Hard Corps
Lionheart (Amiga)
Alien Soldier
Bloody Wolf
Metal Slug
Dreamweb
Detana!! TwinBee
Gradius V
Harmful Park
Lightening Force
X-Multiply
Dogyuun
Armed Police Batrider
Radiant Silvergun
Dodonpachi Daioujou
Night Striker
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Skullgirls
Capcom vs SNK 2
Ultra Street Fighter IV
Samurai Shodown VI
Real Bout Fatal Fury 2
The King of Fighters XI
Blazblue
The Outfoxies
Tekken 3
Dead or Alive 5
Final Fight 3
Double Dragon Neon
Night Slashers
Eojjeonji... Jeonyeok
Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow of Mystara
Rodea the Sky Soldier
Ape Escape
Alice: Madness Returns
Super Mario Land 3D
Shinobi (PS2)
Kuon
Anarchy Reigns
Zone of the Enders 2
Devil May Cry 3
Trinity
Monkey Island III
Sam & Max Hit the Road
Discworld Noir
Leisure Suit Larry: Love for Sail
Heroine's Quest
Gabriel Knight: The Beast Within
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
The Colonel's Bequest
The Wolf Among Us
Shadowgate
Policenauts
Zack & Wiki
Corpse Party
Virtue's Last Reward
Phoenix Wright: Trials and Tribulations
Silent Hill 2
Fatal Frame II
Ultima IV
Might and Magic: World of Xeen
Gothic 2
Torchlight 2
Fallout New Vegas
Pillars of Eternity
Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader
Dragon Age Origins
Mass Effect 2
The Witcher
Eye of the Beholder 2 / Lands of Lore
Starflight 2
XCOM: Enemy Unknown (reboot)
Silent Storm
Bravely Default
Final Fantasy VII
Dragon Quest IV
Chrono Cross
Mother 3
Suikoden III
Phantasy Star
Skies of Arcadia
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Persona 3 Portable
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core
Final Fantasy XII
7th Dragon
Penny Arcade: Rainslick...Darkness
Tactics Ogre
Fire Emblem: Awakening
Codename STEAM
Front Mission 3
Sakura Taisen V
Ogre Battle 64
Command and Conquer Generals
Warcraft III
Supreme Commander
Sins of a Solar Empire
Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War
Rise of Nations
Total War Shogun II
King's Bounty
Victoria II
Colonization
Master of Orion II / Galactic Civilizations II
Sword of the Samurai
Rollercoaster Tycoon 2
Rise of the Triad
Duke Nukem 3D
Dark Forces
Shogo
Timesplitters 2
Singularity
Condemned: Criminal Origins / Soldier of Fortune
Rainbow Six 3
Far Cry 3
Vanquish
Bioshock
Deus Ex Human Revolution
Dishonored
King's Field IV
The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Alpha Protocol
Metro 2033
Alan Wake
Dead Space / Resident Evil (remake)
Deadly Premonition
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Uncharted 2
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time
The Talos Principle
Wing Commander IV
Independence War 2
Metal Gear 2
Splinter Cell: Blacklist
Hitman Go
Blur
OutRun
Mario Kart 8
F-Zero
Super Punch Out!!
1080: TenEighty Snowboarding
Jet Set Radio Future
Chu Chu Rocket
Death Tank
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
Panel de Pon
Bang Bead
The Incredible Machine
Rhythm Tengoku
Gitaroo Man
Time Cruise
Typing of the Dead: Overkill

Some of those entries are technically about multiple games, like "Final Fantasy VII" really just talks about the rest of the good Final Fantasy games.There are a few games on there that aren't also really fantastic but we stuck on because I couldn't think of anything else related (like Nights and Rodea)

Runner-upsa conglomeration of games that were in the top 200 list at one point but got knocked out, cult classics or other neat stuff that we personally liked but not enough to really justify it being the "best", and a few titles that were too new to really justify including);

Lode Runner
Archon
Boulder Dash
Donkey Kong '94
Rocket Knight Adventures
Elevator Action Returns
VVVVVV
Axiom Verge
Legend of Valkyrie
Ninja Princess
Metal Black
Lords of Thunder
Wild Guns
Rez
Kizuna Encounter
Marvel vs. Capcom
Guardians: Denjin Makai 2
Kid Icarus: Uprising
Beyond Good and Evil
Second Sight
Chibi Robo
Eric the Unready
Beneath a Steel Sky
I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream
Gray Matter
Mask of the Ninja
Alien: Isolation
Ravenloft: Stone Prophet
Albion
Anachronox
Darklands
Divinity: Original Sin
Undertale
Xanadu Next
Crimson Shroud
Paper Mario 2: Thousand Year Door
Valkyrie Profile
Grandia
Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
Shining Force III
World in Conflict
Herzog Zwei
Age of Wonders III
Dwarf Fortress
King of Dragon Pass
MULE
Dungeon Keeper
Duke Nukem Zero Hour
Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay
Wing Commander: Privateer
Crazy Taxi
Catherine
Katamari Damacy
Kuru Kuru Kururin

 

[Phenomenal Flea]

I purchased the pdf version the other day, and had a really good time pouring over it! Old PC games are not my forte, so I actually learned a lot.

I thought that the "see also" sections on every page was a great addition, as well. Considering those and the honorable mentions section at the end, the list is actually much larger than the core 200. People who are grumbling about certain omissions may find them still represented in the book in some way.

Such a wide variety of games covered! I'm really pleased with the book. I also didn't expect to see so many recent releases covered by HG101, heh!

 

[Firemind]

Pokemon is an interesting omission. I'm not sure if it would make it onto my list, or heck, which one I would choose.

R/B/Y of course.

Path of Radiance, nah.

Red Alert 2, eh, I'd have picked C&C1 or RA1.

Perfect Dark... interesting.

Where's Star Fox 64? Or even PilotWings 64?

PS. my five year-old self sends his disapproval. He HATED Mappy.

 

[nkarafo]

Is this the complete list?

I don't see Dungeon Keeper anywhere.

I see no Ocarina of Time (woot?)

I see Sonic CD and no Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

I see Mario Galaxy 2 but no Super Mario 64 (again woot?).

Pretty weird list.

I mean i get that Majora's Mask may also represent Ocarina. But Mario 64? Come on.

 

[discoalucard]

Where's Star Fox 64? Or even PilotWings 64?

PS. my five year-old self sends his disapproval. He HATED Mappy.

We picked one rail shooter (outside of Space Harrier anyway) and that was Sin & Punishment 2. Starfox 64 and Panzer Dragoon Zwei/Orta were discussed in the "see also" section.

Go back and play Mappy now, it's awesome. I only discovered it relatively recently because it's at a Barcade by me and I played it every time I go (with Joust too of course). To me it perfects the "chase game" formula that was loosely set down by Pac Man but doesn't copy it as explicitly as so many other clones.

My wife thought she hated Mappy, then I learned she was playing Mappy Land as a kid, the NES sequel, which is terrible. The original game was barely ported to any America/European platforms until the Namco Museum PS1 packs which is a shame.

 

[Firemind]

I just didn't like being chased around. And it's so fast! I'd see Game Over fairly quickly haha. Probably why I preferred Donkey Kong.

Fair enough though. Too bad shipping isn't free to non-UK countries. Would love to read your opinions though so I might just give in and get the paperback.

 

[Ralemont]

I'd really need to see the rationale for Dust getting in, especially over so many worthy games on that HM and runner-up list.

One of the Mass Effect games, whichever you prefer, deserves to be on there.

 

[StrangeRoboMemory]

It's odd not to see things like Ocarina or Halo or FF7, but I think people need to read the list in the spirit with which it's written. The HG 101 staff seems well-aware that this sort of list-making could go on forever, and they aren't trying to account for the most perfect, influential, popular games ever. There are a million lists that have Ocarina and FF7 on them, and almost every site/pundit has made a list that looks almost exactly the same.

These folks wanted to do something different! There aren't many (any) lists out there that will mention Violent Storm and Battle Garegga in the same breath as Grim Fandango and Snatcher. It's a unique approach...this is what HG 101 thinks is essential to play, this is what they feel is a representative crash course in great game design. Their choices are thoughtful and feel deeply considered.

The main issue here is probably titling it "The 200 Best Video Games" because inevitably people are going to take issue with FF7 or Mario 64 being left out. Something more like "200 Video Games That HG 101 Thinks You Should Play Before You Die" would have been better, but I understand it from a marketing perspective.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

R/B/Y of course.

I'd lean that way, but I'm also partial to HGSS and BW2.

It's odd not to see things like Ocarina or Halo or FF7, but I think people need to read the list in the spirit with which it's written. The HG 101 staff seems well-aware that this sort of list-making could go on forever, and they aren't trying to account for the most perfect, influential, popular games ever. There are a million lists that have Ocarina and FF7 on them, and almost every site/pundit has made a list that looks almost exactly the same.

These folks wanted to do something different! There aren't many (any) lists out there that will mention Violent Storm and Battle Garegga in the same breath as Grim Fandango and Snatcher. It's a unique approach...this is what HG 101 thinks is essential to play, this is what they feel is a representative crash course in great game design. Their choices are thoughtful and feel deeply considered.

The main issue here is probably titling it "The 200 Best Video Games" because inevitably people are going to take issue with FF7 or Mario 64 being left out. Something more like "200 Video Games That HG 101 Thinks You Should Play Before You Die" would have been better, but I understand it from a marketing perspective.

I totally get where you're coming from regarding the name, but I think there is some value in saying "these are the games I think are the best." I mentioned earlier in the thread, if someone asked me for what I thought were the "best" games of all time, I don't think Ocarina or FF7 would be on mine either! Your idea for a title would work too of course, but like you said, quite a mouthful for a title!

 

[nkarafo]

The main issue here is probably titling it "The 200 Best Video Games" because inevitably people are going to take issue with FF7 or Mario 64 being left out. Something more like "200 Video Games That HG 101 Thinks You Should Play Before You Die" would have been better, but I understand it from a marketing perspective.

I don't see how Mario 64 should be missing from a list like that, especially in a top 200... Sure, Majora's Mask may be similar to Ocarina but nothing in this list represents that type of 3D platform with non-linear design and exploration. Neither Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie is mentioned at all.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't see how Mario 64 should be missing from a list like that, especially in a top 200... Sure, Majora's Mask may be similar to Ocarina but nothing in this list represents that type of 3D platform with non-linear design and exploration. Neither Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie is mentioned at all.

I mean the answer is pretty simple.

They don't think it's one of the best 200 video games ever. It's an opinion and to some extent a preference.

 

[discoalucard]

I don't see how Mario 64 should be missing from a list like that, especially in a top 200... Sure, Majora's Mask may be similar to Ocarina but nothing in this list represents that type of 3D platform with non-linear design and exploration. Neither Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie is mentioned at all.

For the best 3D Mario game, play Mario Galaxy 2.

And obviously this is my personal preference, so I can't speak for the other contributors, but I think that 32/64-bit era of 3D platformers is not, uh, good.

 

[nkarafo]

For the best 3D Mario game, play Mario Galaxy 2.

I thought Galaxy 2 had too much filler compared to 1. Also, one is a linear 3D plarformer and the other is a non-linear one with focus on exploration and free roaming, plus a much better move set and controls to make this work.

I do like 64 way more but what i'm trying to say is that both games are too different for one to replace the other.

 

[DocSeuss]

System Shock 2 and STALKER?

good book

Half-Life 2? BURN IT

 

[charlequin]

Seems like a generally good list, and I hate complaining about other people's opinions...
but Bulletstorm?

Bulletstorm is an excellent, underrated title. Moreso than any other recent FPS I've played, it aimed to make the experience of shooting itself as kinetic, skillful, and intricate as possible. It's a bit like merging the stylish-combo gameplay from something like Devil May Cry into an FPS, which turns out to work very, very well.

If one purpose of a list like this is to recommend truly great games that are especially worth experiencing due to their unique or special elements, this game is a great fit.

LttP is probably my favorite game in the series, but I'm not going to be upset at anyone who prefer's Link's Awakening - it's an amazing game, especially when you take into account the hardware limitations.

Link's Awakening is a dramatically better game to me, I wouldn't even hesitate to pick it in that head to head. LTTP refines the concept introduced in TLoZ very well (and don't get me wrong, it's an exceptional game) but LA both creates a far more evocative location (and cast of characters) and introduces the type of weird variations on the theme that all the best Zelda titles make liberal use of.

Loses points for having Earthbound on the list

lulz

 

[Firemind]

For the best 3D Mario game, play Mario Galaxy 2.

And obviously this is my personal preference, so I can't speak for the other contributors, but I think that 32/64-bit era of 3D platformers is not, uh, good.

I guess what people are trying to say is it's a bit disingenuous. You explained why you added both FFV and FFVI, but then you said you wanted to just add one on-rail shooter, while there is a fairly high number of side-scrolling shmups/shooters, which play kind of the same, as well as a number of side-scrolling beat 'em ups. Not to discredit those games, but it does seem a bit random. Obviously, it's up to personal preferences, but then the real-time strategy genre is fairly well-represented, despite you saying none of the staff members have a lot of experience with the genre. So it's kind of a weird mix of personal feelings and trying to be objective.

 

[thiagosimoes]

HG101 is my favorite place on the internet, and I love everything that is written there. It's really an awesome site. But I have to say I don't really agree with the omissions of OoT and FFVII. If you are going to be bold and add Barkley Shut Up and Jam Gaiden as one of the best games ever (and I'm okay with that), you can't just say "I will not include this and that because everybody else already did". There is a reason why these games have been included in most lists so far, and no possible explanation about omitting OoT and FFVII could ever make sense to me. Even if they were similar to sequelsin the same series, or even if there are technologically superior games available for the same console, we are talking about two groundbreaking titles that can't just stay out without seriously questioning the credibility of the list (especially after BSUAJG makes it).

TL;DR: I love HG101, I really do, but not adding OoT and FFVII to the list is very disappointing.

 

[Shuggananas]

Pokemon is an interesting omission. I'm not sure if it would make it onto my list, or heck, which one I would choose.

influential != good imo
Pokémon games aren't bad games, but I'd never put them in a "best video games" list

 

[Zonic]

PSA: Use "25OFFBOOK" at Amazon to take 25% off the book. It's $31.50 right now, so it would come down to about $23.63.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

influential != good imo
Pokémon games aren't bad games, but I'd never put them in a "best video games" list

That's fair. I guess it might be on my list of "games you should try once for cultural relevance," but yeah, I'm thinking that I would be unlikely to include it too.

HG101 is my favorite place on the internet, and I love everything that is written there. It's really an awesome site. But I have to say I don't really agree with the omissions of OoT and FFVII. If you are going to be bold and add Barkley Shut Up and Jam Gaiden as one of the best games ever (and I'm okay with that), you can't just say "I will not include this and that because everybody else already did". There is a reason why these games have been included in most lists so far, and no possible explanation about omitting OoT and FFVII could ever make sense to me. Even if they were similar to sequelsin the same series, or even if there are technologically superior games available for the same console, we are talking about two groundbreaking titles that can't just stay out without seriously questioning the credibility of the list (especially after BSUAJG makes it).

TL;DR: I love HG101, I really do, but not adding OoT and FFVII to the list is very disappointing.

So in other words, every list has to include OoT and FFVII forever?

 

[PooBone]

I do not agree with this list, lol. Seems like a dumb book.

 

[batrush]

Pretty decent list.

 

[discoalucard]

I guess what people are trying to say is it's a bit disingenuous. You explained why you added both FFV and FFVI, but then you said you wanted to just add one on-rail shooter, while there is a fairly high number of side-scrolling shmups/shooters, which play kind of the same, as well as a number of side-scrolling beat 'em ups. Not to discredit those games, but it does seem a bit random. Obviously, it's up to personal preferences, but then the real-time strategy genre is fairly well-represented, despite you saying none of the staff members have a lot of experience with the genre. So it's kind of a weird mix of personal feelings and trying to be objective.

As for as shoot-em-ups, that's because the genre is huge. There were hundreds of games released over the 8/16/32-bit era. There are maybe a dozen decent 3D rail shooters, and that's including multiple Starfox and Panzer Dragoon titles. Obviously things were weighed based on personal preference - it didn't really NEED two Konami shoot-em-ups but I love them, and there are enough differences between the games selected and the reasons why they were selected, so that's how it went.

I would definitely debate that, outside of those two, that the shoot-em-ups play the same. R-Type is a lot different than Gradius which is a whole lot different than Fantasy Zone. Even the Toaplan/Raizing/Cave games, which share some development DNA, play differently enough for anyone familiar with the genre.

As for RTS, when I say "staff" I mean the four people (myself included) that first started creating this list. I reached out to some of our regular contributors to help fill out the gaps in knowledge, which created a more rounded selection.

For any of the more "popular" games, I sat down and asked the question "everyone knows these games, do we really NEED to feature them and devote a slot to then?" Every game we feature is some other game that gets kicked off. Some passed muster (Half-Life 2, RE4), some didn't (Ocarina, Mario 64, FFVII). I'll gladly step up and defend FFVII in most contexts, but outside of its influence, I'd argue that every other JRPG we selected does something more interesting. Just being "historically significant" was not a good enough reason. And when picking a sole "storyline focused" Final Fantasy, VI is frankly better.

 

[PassiveObserver]

Eojjeonji Joheun Il-i Saenggil Geot Gateun Jeonyeok

Now that's one I've never heard of. Nice to see the spate of articles on Korean PC games led to the discovery of a gem.

 

[thiagosimoes]

So in other words, every list has to include OoT and FFVII forever?

No. I was specifically referring to this list, and this is a criticism of the selection process for the games. I understand what they are trying to do, but not including FFVII or OoT because there are other games from these series already mentioned, or because they decided to give a thumbs up to a "refined" follow up is just hard to accept as valid arguments.

What I understand is that otherwise these games would have been added to the list, so why not creating a list with the top 50 or so games of all time and then adding 200 extra titles that are also deserving of making it to a list of best games ever? I don't access HG101 looking for information about mainstream titles, and this is not the focus of the site at all. I believe that a list of 200 great games that are not often mentioned anywhere else follows the spirit of HG101 a lot more than a top 200 of the best games ever with glaring omissions.

It fails to mention the top 2 games on the list of nearly everybody else on the planet. The fact that discoalucard even has to justify the choices only makes things more awkward. I love it that the focus is mostly on the underdog and off the radar titles, but then I'd have to say that the title of the book is just plain wrong. If you're going to make a statement as bold as best games of all time, you can't just ignore OoT and FFVII just because you feel like it, or because you're trying to be different. If you're trying to be different, then change the title of the book to something that reflects this difference. As it is, I don't agree with the way it was done.

 

[cj_iwakura]

No. I was specifically referring to this list, and this is a criticism of the selection process for the games. I understand what they are trying to do, but not including FFVII or OoT because there are other games from these series already mentioned, or because they decided to give a thumbs up to a "refined" follow up is just hard to accept as valid arguments.

What I understand is that otherwise these games would have been added to the list, so why not creating a list with the top 50 or so games of all time and then adding 200 extra titles that are also deserving of making it to a list of best games ever? I don't access HG101 looking for information about mainstream titles, and this is not the focus of the site at all. I believe that a list of 200 great games that are not often mentioned anywhere else follows the spirit of HG101 a lot more than a top 200 of the best games ever with glaring omissions.

It fails to mention the top 2 games on the list of nearly everybody else on the planet. The fact that discoalucard even has to justify the choices only makes things more awkward. I love it that the focus is mostly on the underdog and off the radar titles, but then I'd have to say that the title of the book is just plain wrong. If you're going to make a statement as bold as best games of all time, you can't just ignore OoT and FFVII just because you feel like it, or because you're trying to be different. If you're trying to be different, then change the title of the book to something that reflects this difference. As it is, I don't agree with the way it was done.

I'm not Discoalucard, but I'm no fan of OoT at all. I vastly prefer Link to the Past. It's a book of opinions, and no one on the staff felt they were worth including. Sure, I love FF7, but would I put it above Dragon Force, Nocturne, or Persona 2? Hell no.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

OoT/FF7 aren't even very good video games outside the context of you being a child playing them in 1998.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

No. I was specifically referring to this list, and this is a criticism of the selection process for the games. I understand what they are trying to do, but not including FFVII or OoT because there are other games from these series already mentioned, or because they decided to give a thumbs up to a "refined" follow up is just hard to accept as valid arguments.

What I understand is that otherwise these games would have been added to the list, so why not creating a list with the top 50 or so games of all time and then adding 200 extra titles that are also deserving of making it to a list of best games ever? I don't access HG101 looking for information about mainstream titles, and this is not the focus of the site at all. I believe that a list of 200 great games that are not often mentioned anywhere else follows the spirit of HG101 a lot more than a top 200 of the best games ever with glaring omissions.

It fails to mention the top 2 games on the list of nearly everybody else on the planet. The fact that discoalucard even has to justify the choices only makes things more awkward. I love it that the focus is mostly on the underdog and off the radar titles, but then I'd have to say that the title of the book is just plain wrong. If you're going to make a statement as bold as best games of all time, you can't just ignore OoT and FFVII just because you feel like it, or because you're trying to be different. If you're trying to be different, then change the title of the book to something that reflects this difference. As it is, I don't agree with the way it was done.

Yes you can, and here's the justification:

They're not the two of the best 200 games of all time. That's a perfectly valid opinion.

OoT/FF7 aren't even very good video games outside the context of you being a child playing them in 1998.

I wouldn't go quite that far myself. I think they're precisely "very good." I just don't think they're all time greats. I mean, I could give you two dozen JRPGs that I think are more worth your time than FF7 for starters. But I do think you're right that there's a huge aspect of nostalgia with those two games. I wonder in the future as new publications make their lists, staffed by writers who didn't grow up in '98, if they'll even include OoT and FF7. Personally, I think the games will begin to slide down the lists until they disappear.

 

[Duster]

Thanks for posting the games that didn't make the main list.

 

[thiagosimoes]

Sure, I love FF7, but would I put it above Dragon Force, Nocturne, or Persona 2? Hell no.

This is not a ranked list, so I don't think putting some games above other games is the correct term. I see the book as a list of great experiences in gaming.

Yes you can, and here's the justification:

They're not the two of the best 200 games of all time. That's a perfectly valid opinion.

Among 200 possible choices of great experiences, it's hard to believe that no one from the staff thought OoT or FFVII deserved a place there. Or even if someone did, the rules didn't allow for these games to be included, and then everybody was like "yeah, why not? let's publish it like this". I deeply respect HG101, but the fact is I (again: I) am very disappointed that what I judge to be poor thought guided the development of the rules for selecting games in a book created by a staff of superb and outstanding minds.

And while you can say any opinion is valid, I have to say it sounds very unorthodox to include BSUAJG in the list while still trying to convince people OoT and FFVII didn't deserve their place on the list at all. What's worse is that all of this sounds presumptous, especially when the best argument for these choices are "because we wanted to", or "it's our opinion, so respect it". I do respect your opinion, but as a long time fan of HG101 I've learned to expect the very best from these guys. As a list of great games, I'm okay with what we're given. But as a list of the best games of all time, I expected more from this group of talented people. This may look like mere choice of words, but in the end the difference is huge.

 

[bigkrev]

My black and white copy arrived yesterday, because $35 is a lot of money. I'm thankful that it's still completely readable and the screenshots look fine.

Well worth the price

 

[AlteredBeast]

Props for recognizing much of Sega's greatness. That cover art could have been pretty epic, but it ends up looking kind of corny.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Among 200 possible choices of great experiences, it's hard to believe that no one from the staff thought OoT or FFVII deserved a place there. Or even if someone did, the rules didn't allow for these games to be included, and then everybody was like "yeah, why not? let's publish it like this". I deeply respect HG101, but the fact is I (again: I) am very disappointed that what I judge to be poor thought guided the development of the rules for selecting games in a book created by a staff of superb and outstanding minds.

And while you can say any opinion is valid, I have to say it sounds very unorthodox to include BSUAJG in the list while still trying to convince people OoT and FFVII didn't deserve their place on the list at all. What's worse is that all of this sounds presumptous, especially when the best argument for these choices are "because we wanted to", or "it's our opinion, so respect it". I do respect your opinion, but as a long time fan of HG101 it's really hard to agree with it. As a list of great games, I'm okay with what we're given. But as a list of the best games of all time, I expected more from this group of talented people.

Unorthodox sounds good to me. It's nice to see a list that challenges the status quo of everyone regurgitating the same damn lists over and over again. What's the interest in everyone having the same opinions?

I would expect a fan to not be so caught up in some odd notion of orthodoxy and caring whether two games are on the list.

 

[Firemind]

Playing and not caring about SM64 at the end of 1996 though, now that's just whack.

Spoiler

jk

 

[cj_iwakura]

My black and white copy arrived yesterday, because $35 is a lot of money. I'm thankful that it's still completely readable and the screenshots look fine.

Well worth the price

Heh, my first time in print.
(I wrote the 999 piece.)

 

[Firemind]

As for as shoot-em-ups, that's because the genre is huge. There were hundreds of games released over the 8/16/32-bit era. There are maybe a dozen decent 3D rail shooters, and that's including multiple Starfox and Panzer Dragoon titles. Obviously things were weighed based on personal preference - it didn't really NEED two Konami shoot-em-ups but I love them, and there are enough differences between the games selected and the reasons why they were selected, so that's how it went.

I would definitely debate that, outside of those two, that the shoot-em-ups play the same. R-Type is a lot different than Gradius which is a whole lot different than Fantasy Zone. Even the Toaplan/Raizing/Cave games, which share some development DNA, play differently enough for anyone familiar with the genre.

As for RTS, when I say "staff" I mean the four people (myself included) that first started creating this list. I reached out to some of our regular contributors to help fill out the gaps in knowledge, which created a more rounded selection.

For any of the more "popular" games, I sat down and asked the question "everyone knows these games, do we really NEED to feature them and devote a slot to then?" Every game we feature is some other game that gets kicked off. Some passed muster (Half-Life 2, RE4), some didn't (Ocarina, Mario 64, FFVII). I'll gladly step up and defend FFVII in most contexts, but outside of its influence, I'd argue that every other JRPG we selected does something more interesting. Just being "historically significant" was not a good enough reason. And when picking a sole "storyline focused" Final Fantasy, VI is frankly better.

I love Parodius by the way. Great pick!

 

[v0yce]

This is not a ranked list, so I don't think putting some games above other games is the correct term. I see the book as a list of great experiences in gaming.



Among 200 possible choices of great experiences, it's hard to believe that no one from the staff thought OoT or FFVII deserved a place there. Or even if someone did, the rules didn't allow for these games to be included, and then everybody was like "yeah, why not? let's publish it like this". I deeply respect HG101, but the fact is I (again: I) am very disappointed that what I judge to be poor thought guided the development of the rules for selecting games in a book created by a staff of superb and outstanding minds.

And while you can say any opinion is valid, I have to say it sounds very unorthodox to include BSUAJG in the list while still trying to convince people OoT and FFVII didn't deserve their place on the list at all. What's worse is that all of this sounds presumptous, especially when the best argument for these choices are "because we wanted to", or "it's our opinion, so respect it". I do respect your opinion, but as a long time fan of HG101 I've learned to expect the very best from these guys. As a list of great games, I'm okay with what we're given. But as a list of the best games of all time, I expected more from this group of talented people. This may look like mere choice of words, but in the end the difference is huge.

I doubt many people expect THE definitive 200 greatest games list, nor do I think that was the intent of the book. I expect a good read about 200 great games.

200 sounds like a lot but by the time you fill in all the obvious titles you're really not left with that much space to put in lesser know greats or personal favorites. Any reasons they could come up with to pair down the titles that have been exhausted is good for me. As much as I love FF7 and Ocarina, at this point I'd rather read about Shut Up and Jam.

 

[discoalucard]

And while you can say any opinion is valid, I have to say it sounds very unorthodox to include BSUAJG in the list while still trying to convince people OoT and FFVII didn't deserve their place on the list at all. What's worse is that all of this sounds presumptous, especially when the best argument for these choices are "because we wanted to", or "it's our opinion, so respect it". I do respect your opinion, but as a long time fan of HG101 I've learned to expect the very best from these guys. As a list of great games, I'm okay with what we're given. But as a list of the best games of all time, I expected more from this group of talented people. This may look like mere choice of words, but in the end the difference is huge.

Okay, let's define OoT/FFVII as "significant" games, which is the reason I assume you're discussing them. They're widely praised, they defined their generation, they influenced dozens of games, they sold like wildfire. Going by that criteria, though, there are tons of other games that should be included. Why not include Space Invaders, Pitfall, the original Super Mario Bros., Wolfenstein 3D? At that point there are obligations to include titles based more on significance versus whether we really liked them, and that was simply a project I wouldn't have been interested in creating nor interested in reading.

As an alternative way of looking at things, let's say you need to pick one "3D Zelda-type game", because this is (roughly) the way we made these picks. Let's say this occurs in a vacuum, you know nothing about the outside critical reception or sales or impact of any of these titles. You have no nostalgia for either and played them at the same time. Your choice is between Okami and Ocarina of Time. Why do you pick Ocarina? Why do you not pick Okami? Expanding that, why do you pick Ocarina over every other 3D Zelda?

There's no wrong answer, anyone's opinion is as valid as any others and solid arguments can be made based on how your prioritize your gaming likes and dislikes. I'm just saying, some titles become memes among the canon of video gaming, and the audience kind of repeats their status and doesn't really question them. This was something I explicitly wanted to avoid, to give it a little more scrutiny before saying "yeah, we agree".

And for Barkley, it got on the list because humor is incredibly rare in video gaming, especially outside of the adventure game genre. There are funny bits in various RPGs, but I've never played a game that handled genre parody so well - the closest is Earthbound, and that's a very different thing.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

ya'll picked the superior FF/3D Zeldas anyway so

but lets talk about Sonic CD getting in over S3&K tho

 

[cj_iwakura]

ya'll picked the superior FF/3D Zeldas anyway so

but lets talk about Sonic CD getting in over S3&K tho

Sonic CD is the best, glad we agree.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Honestly, you could have named the book "our 200 favourite games of all time" and not bothered with any of this bullshit.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Honestly, you could have named the book "our 200 favourite games of all time" and not bothered with any of this bullshit.

You know that wouldn't sell as well.

 

[Zukuu]

Wait, FF 5 and not 7? What the fack am I reading?
At least they got NieR on it.

Also MGS RISING, but not 1?

 

[Thores]

ya'll picked the superior FF/3D Zeldas anyway so

but lets talk about Sonic CD getting in over S3&K tho

Sonic 3 and Knuckles was their "See Also" game for that entry.

 

[discoalucard]

Wait, FF 5 and not 7? What the fack am I reading?
At least they got NieR on it.

Also MGS RISING, but not 1?

Snake Eater, dude.

 

[Zukuu]

Snake Eater, dude.

That's on the list already.

 

[discoalucard]

That's on the list already.

Yeah that was my point. MGS3 > MGS1.

 

[Firemind]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles was their "See Also" game for that entry.

As in "your favourite game ain't that hot"

Man I'm still bummed SM64 didn't even get an honourable mention. Did nobody get an N64 from their parents?

 

[Zukuu]

Yeah that was my point. MGS3 > MGS1.

??? It's about MGS RISING instead of MGS 1. Also, I disagree. MGS 1 > 3.

 

[cj_iwakura]

??? It's about MGS RISING instead of MGS 1. Also, I disagree. MGS 1 > 3.

I think the Jedi are evil!

As in "your favourite game ain't that hot"

Man I'm still bummed SM64 didn't even get an honourable mention. Did nobody get an N64 from their parents?

Nope, I got a Saturn. Guess it's my fault.