• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

HBO's House Of The Dragon (no book spoilers)

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
This shot might go down as one of the best ever for this universe. Simple...but fucking effective:

itivfshdvnv91.jpg


The episode itself was great as well. Poor kid though...that dragon was shredded. Holy shit!
The whole scene where he was flying to Storm's End made me think of Demon's Souls. How ominous it all looked, the architecture, everything about it.

The sense of scale of the young dragon to the ole girl was harrowing.
 
Last edited:
Rhaenys’ explanation for why she didn’t kill the Greens made no sense. She said it’s not ‘her war’, but then she convinces Corlys to bend the knee to Rhaenyra anyway, despite him wanting to stay neutral. Not to mention that massacring hundreds of people on her dragon during Aegon’s coronation was de facto a declaration of war anyway. And why did she have the same smug expression on her face across the whole episode, no, the whole season even?
Yep. It's why I had such a massive problem with last episode's ending. It was the dumbest decision they made all season, and it completely destroys her character. She's essentially ruined for the remainder of the series - not only is she a mass murderer, but she's a complete moron and a walking contradiction of motivations.

Other than that, the season was fantastic. The last few scenes of this finale were incredible, and the final shot totally stuck the landing as a capstone for this part of the story. After the travesty of GoT S8, this show managed to do the impossible by not only bringing the franchise back to life but possibly even greater heights.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
IMHO the less said about Rhaenys the better. In their effort to make Rhaenyra look even remotely empathetic and competent they have essentially hamstrung almost every other character (#TeamGreen). Some of this the GRRMs doing as he doesn't really give Rhaenys a lot of character other than being repetitively "fierce and fearless" without a lot of context as to how and why this is.

We can discuss her in more depth in the full spoiler thread if interested as most of her stuff has yet to come.

In the context of the show her crashing the coronation, NOT incinerating the ruling party right then and there, then claiming "it's not my war to start" seems idiotic. That WAS an act of war, or certainly as close as you can come like flying nuc armed bombers right longside a nations airspace. If she thought to hole up in Driftmark and let Rhaenyra fight, Rhaenys then pulls her hubby back from that VERY DECISION. If her thought was to now support Rhaenyra, well, what better way than to kill obvious traitors? All she really did was force Rhaenyras hand because TeamGreen surely won't overlook that affront nor would they let Rhaenyra submit and Rhaenys go, she'd have to pay no matter what. It's just a silly writing decision and largely indefensible.
 
Last edited:

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
IMHO the less said about Rhaenys the better. In their effort to make Rhaenyra look even remotely empathetic and competent they have essentially hamstrung almost every other character (#TeamGreen). Some of this the GRRMs doing as he doesn't really give Rhaenys a lot of character other than being repetitively "fierce and fearless" without a lot of context as to how and why this is.

We can discuss her in more depth in the full spoiler thread if interested as most of her stuff has yet to come.

In the context of the show her crashing the coronation, NOT incinerating the ruling party right then and there, then claiming "it's not my war to start" seems idiotic. That WAS an act of war, or certainly as close as you can come like flying nuc armed bombers right longside a nations airspace. If she thought to hole up in Driftmark and let Rhaenyra fight, Rhaenys then pulls her hubby back from that VERY DECISION. If her thought was to now support Rhaenyra, well, what better way than to kill obvious traitors? All she really did was force Rhaenyras hand because TeamGreen surely won't overlook that affront nor would they let Rhaenyra submit and Rhaenys go, she'd have to pay no matter what. It's just a silly writing decision and largely indefensible.
Stealing the crown, locking her up, forcing lords and nobles to bow or die to the false king, etc., was the first act of war, arguably.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
She didn't say it wasn't "her war," she said it wasn't her place to start the war.

Yup. The stability of the realm is the most important thing and what she respected about Rhaenyra when she took up the mantle.

She could have saved a lot of trouble if she had burned them all though.

It would have started a run on the throne though. Rhaenyra was nowhere around, Kings landing would have been rulerless, ready for a coup or opportunists. Plus Rhaenyra might have just thought fuck it then what.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Is the new Dragon Vermithor, bigger than that other dragon ridden by Anime Targaryen?
No. It is an old and big dragon though. Vermithor was King Jaehaerys' dragon, so it's been hanging out eating sheep or whatever for the past 30-40+ years. Vermithor hatched for young King J, thus is "almost 100 years old" by the DwtD, but isn't as old as Vhagar, who is well over a hundred and was a mount of Queen Visenya herself.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Stealing the crown, locking her up, forcing lords and nobles to bow or die to the false king, etc., was the first act of war, arguably.
Then her actions make even LESS sense as the only real option open to Aegon II is death, imprisonment, or eternal hostage status for Rhaenyra and all her kids, to likely include their bethrothed, Rhaenys only actual surviving grandkids.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Good episode, but not a great finale. I have been comparing this season to GoT's first season through out the season, and while I think it matched that first season up until Episode 8, the final two episodes of GoT were simply legendary. There is no episode 9 shocker here. No episode 10 DRAGONS ARE REAL twist ending.

I think it boils down to the somewhat poor creative decision to show only one side's POV in both of the final two episodes. The drama comes from having both sides interact with each other. Separating them and the simply forgetting about them in two consecutive episodes is just bad storytelling. Look at how the episode came alive as soon as Aemond showed up. Boom. Drama! it's tense. It's exciting. You are at the edge of your seat instead of simply waiting for things to happen.

I also think a big war scene was needed at the end there. The Dragon battle looked absolutely stunning. Props to GoT directors, visual effects guys and the cinematographers for doing so much with such a small budget, and showing those Marvel hacks how its done, but it needed a bigger setpiece like the one at the end of episode 3 or Hardhome or Battle of the Bastards.

Overall, 9/10 Season. I was done with GoT after that awful final season so to see them absolutely nail this gives me hope for Jon Snow's spinoff. I might not agree with all the choices they have made, but this is great fucking television. Best spin off since Better Call Saul.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Then her actions make even LESS sense as the only real option open to Aegon II is death, imprisonment, or eternal hostage status for Rhaenyra and all her kids, to likely include their bethrothed, Rhaenys only actual surviving grandkids.
That is for the Queen to decide, not her. There would have been a power vacuum for the throne left empty, since a lot of the houses were going back on their oaths as generations passed. Borros for one.

It's a chess game after all. It's the eyes of the people in the 7 kingdoms that need convincing, and if you can get majority and starve them out (the Greens in King's Landing) through attrition rather than so much bloodshed, that is better.

Until Punished Legolas really fucked up, however.
 
Last edited:
I also think a big war scene was needed at the end there.
Hard disagree. I had somewhat similar thoughts at first, but thinking back about this last episode it would have been a waste to do so. The plot was already moving at mach speed this whole season and way too many people would have complained even more about things speeding up too fast just to start the war and cliffhanger mid-battle. Obviously it's not the most action-based ending, but what ended up happening in the end was a great moment to leave people in anticipation for what's coming next.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Hard disagree. I had somewhat similar thoughts at first, but thinking back about this last episode it would have been a waste to do so. The plot was already moving at mach speed this whole season and way too many people would have complained even more about things speeding up too fast just to start the war and cliffhanger mid-battle. Obviously it's not the most action-based ending, but what ended up happening in the end was a great moment to leave people in anticipation for what's coming next.
I think the problem is that the whole season now feels like a big tease. We all knew it was building up to a big explosive war, but for them to punt it to season 2 feels kinda underwhelming.

They couldve done a Hardhome style mini battle if they wanted to keep a big Blackwater or Battle of the Bastards like episode for next season.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
That is for the Queen to decide, not her. There would have been a power vacuum for the throne left empty, since a lot of the houses were going back on their oaths as generations passed. Borros for one.

It's a chess game after all. It's the eyes of the people in the 7 kingdoms that need convincing, and if you can get majority and starve them out (the Greens in King's Landing) through attrition rather than so much bloodshed, that is better.

Until Punished Legolas really fucked up, however.
I'd agree with you if Rhaenys had just evac'd out of another door and flown around the dragonpit. But she chose the MOST DRAMATIC escape possible, and did it in FULL ARMOR, so from a Green perspective her stance seems really really clear. To then kinda step back and say "it wasn't my place to start your war" is just......I dunno, silly.

Lets debate what would have happened HAD she incinerated the dias.

The entire, or majority, or the Green Council...dead. Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, dead. Rhaenys could then fly to Dragonstone, a quick trip mind you, and let Rhaenyra know. Rhaenyra, pregnant, might still be able to fly back with Daemon and her three older boys, dragonriders all, and at least lock down King's Landing, ESPECIALLY since Daemon has contacts there, whether or not Mysaria is burned out (or not working with him anymore). Helaenas kids would lilely be captured, but even if they escape they are but toddlers and where would they go? They'd have to be smuggled all the way across Westeros to Old Town.

So Rhaenyra now rules, can pin all the bloodshed on Rhaenys who then just f's off back to Driftmark WHERE SHE HAS BEEN ALMOST ALL THIS TIME ANYWAY, and poof, the realm is stable since there isn't really any contesting Rhaenyra as she is the only option by a country mile. Daemon is on a shorter leash these days so those fears seem mostly misplaced (his choking moment perhaps suggests otherwise), Corlys controls the Stepstones so it's back to the good old days under King J! Jace and Luc marry their step-sisters/cousins, Joffrey, Viserys, and Aegon III are free to shore up any shaky commitments (Lord Baratheon for starters) and all the dragons are back under one roof.
 

Madflavor

Member
It sucks so hard we got a wait till 2024. The show was a huge success, so hopefully after season two they start filming these things back to back.
 

Elysion

Banned
Yeah, if Rhaenys had killed the Greens, she could’ve then flown to Dragonstone, and Rhaenyra and Daemon could’ve flown back to the city on their own dragons to take control, all within the span of a day or two. There would’ve been no time for a serious power vacuum in King’s Landing.

I think the problem is that the whole season now feels like a big tease. We all knew it was building up to a big explosive war, but for them to punt it to season 2 feels kinda underwhelming.
I somewhat agree; this final episode felt more like what you’d expect from an episode 9 in GoT. In GoT, episode 9 was usually when some big shocking thing happened, while episode 10 then dealt with the immediate aftermath. But HotD skipped the aftermath. It would be like if the final scene of season 1 of GoT was Ned’s execution, or the final scene of season 3 was the Red Wedding, without showing the fallout of those events in the final episode.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Yeah, if Rhaenys had killed the Greens, she could’ve then flown to Dragonstone, and Rhaenyra and Daemon could’ve flown back to the city on their own dragons to take control, all within the span of a day or two. There would’ve been no time for a serious power vacuum in King’s Landing.
Did you forget the Queen was going through a troubled labor of the stillborn deformed child?
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Did you forget the Queen was going through a troubled labor of the stillborn deformed child?
The labor BEGINS when she hears she is being deposed. If the news was "Hey, they TRIED to depose you, I fried them all, long live the QUEEN" then that outcome might have been quite different.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
The labor BEGINS when she hears she is being deposed. If the news was "Hey, they TRIED to depose you, I fried them all, long live the QUEEN" then that outcome might have been quite different.
I don't think so. It was just all timing. The child was deformed and stillborn, was missing a leg, etc..

It is common with their inbreeding bloodlines.
 
Rhaenys’ explanation for why she didn’t kill the Greens made no sense. She said it’s not ‘her war’, but then she convinces Corlys to bend the knee to Rhaenyra anyway, despite him wanting to stay neutral. Not to mention that massacring hundreds of people on her dragon during Aegon’s coronation was de facto a declaration of war anyway. And why did she have the same smug expression on her face across the whole episode, no, the whole season even?

Other than that, the finale was great.
She never said it wasn't "her war". She said it wasn't a war she was supposed to start. That's all. Clearly she left the greens and went back to Rhaenyra. As soon she did that, she picked a side.
About her expression, i think she didn't want to be loyal to Rhaenyra without her husband at her side and wanted him to do that. He IS the one calling the shots after all and she stood by Rhaenyra and defended her when they both talked about it before that scene.

Rhaenys is one fo the best characters of this show. Really well written in my opinion.

The massacre was fucked up for sure though but when do these shows care about the little people? In fact the only 2 people that seemed to care about them were Rhaenyra herself and her father.
 
The massacre was fucked up for sure though but when do these shows care about the little people? In fact the only 2 people that seemed to care about them were Rhaenyra herself and her father.
Wat.

Rhaenys, literally 10 minutes before massacring hundreds of innocent people, goes on a diatribe about how kings are responsible for setting the realm on fire. The mental gymnastics people are willing to do in justifying Rhaenys actions are ridiculous. The showrunners wanted a "badass" scene for her - that's the end of it. There is no in-universe justification for the scene, which is why it's such a terrible scene from a story perspective.

Daemon cares about the smallfolk - he even chastised Rhaenyra early in the season for acting ambivalent towards them. Furthermore, "not caring" about the smallfolk isn't the same as actively killing hundreds of them for what essentially amounts to a stare down. It's a stupid scene that people are trying to sweep under the rug because the rest of the series has been so good.
 
Maybe she felt they deserved it for so quickly turning their backs on the rightful heir.
The smallfolk were forced into the dragon pit for the ceremony, which she knew because she got caught up in the tide herself. When they started cheering, she was already offscreen getting her dragon. Again, it was simply the showrunners wanting her to have a badass scene.
 
I think the problem is that the whole season now feels like a big tease. We all knew it was building up to a big explosive war, but for them to punt it to season 2 feels kinda underwhelming.
No, that's your impatience speaking lol. I know how you feel, you want more and you want it now. Unfortunately we all just have to wait.
They couldve done a Hardhome style mini battle if they wanted to keep a big Blackwater or Battle of the Bastards like episode for next season.
Possibly, but the problem is the episode would have had to skip time again to do this, because this episode was mostly about finding out sides and preparation. I don't know about you but I'm worn out when it comes to time skips.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
The smallfolk were forced into the dragon pit for the ceremony, which she knew because she got caught up in the tide herself. When they started cheering, she was already offscreen getting her dragon. Again, it was simply the showrunners wanting her to have a badass scene.
Oh, I am sure she heard the cheering, since it happened just as she was leaving. Regardless, it shows a contrast in characters. She is stone cold to them since she spends most of her time at Driftmark, Daemon is more sympathetic due to spending most of his time in the brothels and the underbelly with them.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
No, that's your impatience speaking lol. I know how you feel, you want more and you want it now. Unfortunately we all just have to wait.

Possibly, but the problem is the episode would have had to skip time again to do this, because this episode was mostly about finding out sides and preparation. I don't know about you but I'm worn out when it comes to time skips.
This show is very adverse to montages but in F&B there is basically an extended one where each ruler reacts to news of the other's doings with lots of screaming and the like. I think they COULD have merged the two locations a bit more. The concept of space and time is going to be very important in the coming seasons and they will need good ways to keep the audience informed of both. I like we are gonna see a LOT of that glowing table (perhaps the intro will change from Viserys' Valyria table model to that table).
 
Oh, I am sure she heard the cheering, since it happened just as she was leaving. Regardless, it shows a contrast in characters. She is stone cold to them since she spends most of her time at Driftmark, Daemon is more sympathetic due to spending most of his time in the brothels and the underbelly with them.
I'm fine with her not killing family, because I think we can justify her thought process there in several ways. I suppose if she is genuinely that callous of a person towards the smallfolk, a little more setup would've been nice. Because to me, it felt her character went from 0-100 in that respect.

Even a quick look of disgust while looking down on them from her dragon would've done wonders. I can accept that maybe she found the cheering traitorous......but again, I didn't get that impression at all until you brought it up. I still think the scene is dumb, but it softens my stance a little - I want to give them the benefit since the rest of the show is so good.
 

ikbalCO

Member
Great ending to a fantastic season.

Last 10 minutes or so was brutal and reminded me why game of thrones was so good back in its heydays.

Art direction and cinematogrophy in particular were sublime. Acting as well, as you watch the queen send her two beloved sons away on a misson and to adulthood. Lucerys innocence and tricken state made that whole ordeal quite hard to watch.

I dont understand the vitriol some of you have for the finale.

Overall, better than anything on tv and better than half of GoT.

10/10 castin in all fronts, too.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I'm fine with her not killing family, because I think we can justify her thought process there in several ways. I suppose if she is genuinely that callous of a person towards the smallfolk, a little more setup would've been nice. Because to me, it felt her character went from 0-100 in that respect.

Even a quick look of disgust while looking down on them from her dragon would've done wonders. I can accept that maybe she found the cheering traitorous......but again, I didn't get that impression at all until you brought it up. I still think the scene is dumb, but it softens my stance a little - I want to give them the benefit since the rest of the show is so good.
She's had a set up the entire season. It was all boiling over and the final nail in the coffin was stealing the crown and locking her up.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
And she knows it would have been her head, because she wasn't going to kneel.
To be fair, she would never have even been asked to kneel. She runs nothing, is in charge of nothing. Driftmark is run by Corlys, and in his absence/death Luc was confirmed as heir. So she could have easily backed out of any commitment by batting her eyes and saying "But Sers, I'm just a weak woman and can't make a decision this hard, you've said so yourself by passing over my distant and least favorite cousin, Rhaenyra!" :p
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
To be fair, she would never have even been asked to kneel. She runs nothing, is in charge of nothing. Driftmark is run by Corlys, and in his absence/death Luc was confirmed as heir. So she could have easily backed out of any commitment by batting her eyes and saying "But Sers, I'm just a weak woman and can't make a decision this hard, you've said so yourself by passing over my distant and least favorite cousin, Rhaenyra!" :p
water swim GIF
 
She's had a set up the entire season. It was all boiling over and the final nail in the coffin was stealing the crown and locking her up.
I'll rewatch the season, but I never got the impression she felt strongly about the succession of the crown the entire season. Hell, she even tells her husband to give it up because she's put it behind her. I felt like she was on the fence up until Viserys had his grand entrance in the episode prior.

The bottom line is, the sensible action from a story perspective was for her to simply escape King's Landing on her dragon. Bursting through the floor killing hundreds of innocent people, and risking her safety as well as her dragon's makes no sense.
 
Last edited:

cormack12

Gold Member
So the big question I have is do we think Rhaneyra and Daemon are gonna say 'Rhaenys, actually Laenor is alive with a skinhead'.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Gp1

Romulus

Member
After enjoying most of this season, I didn't really like the finale. It just wasn't fulfilling for me. I didn't expect a full-out war, but it was just extremely tame after the build up.
 

ikbalCO

Member
One more thing.

After watching the finale, we are definetly riding dragons in the next fromsoft game right?

Cuz its been a long time coming.
 
Top Bottom