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HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part 1 OT | Endure & Survive
- Thread starter Represent.
- Start date
Toons
Member
A writer who spends his time s***ing on other people's more popular works isn't someone that screams successful to me.
But even if it did hes had plenty of awful takes at various points that have displayed he largely doesnt understand basic character writing, even aside form this one. Just suggesting that a characters narrative only matters so long as they are alive in the story is hilariously bad. I could list hundreds if examples that make plain how ridiculous that is.
That is, if he's not just pandering to his base in these videos... which he most likely is. Gotta get that bread somehow.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I don’t think your wife has enough beard for them. You’re safe.
Chiggs
Member
Okay, how about: does nothing to move the main narrative forward? You want a touching vignette that can stand on its own...might I recommend Black Mirror's San Junipero?
Oh, but the letter and the key...gosh, looks like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place now!
Toons
Member
Yeah just saying "____ did it already" over and over again doesn't actually day anything. Everything's been done.
Hes trying that post-modernist "this is well made but its trying to be well made and thats bad" angle. Thats a hard angle to sell.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
I’d point out again that the Bill sequence in the game and the one in the show end up with Ellie and Joel in the same place: driving off to Pittsburgh in Bill’s truck.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bill’s letter is the catalyst that drives Joel to do what he did.
OsirisBlack
Banned
Have you ever heard a straight man or woman say?
“homosexuals don’t like watching straight sex, must be repressed heterosexual feelings. I bet that guy/girl is insecure and immature.”
I haven’t. I do hear it in the other direction quite often.
People have a right to like or dislike whatever it is they want. I don’t like rollercoasters, bad movies, or Twinkies.
Ulysses 31
Member
I suppose they're pointing to the lack of moving the Joel/Ellie plot forward and that they'll probably won't be referenced to anymore in the series.
Chiggs
Member
The episode was a buck-twenty, my dude. I certainly cannot discount the resonance it had with a whole lot of people, but it was clearly a side dish. For me, the question becomes: will we be left wanting when all is said and done? If so, I know which episode I'm looking at as to where it all started.
My stance is that I would have just preferred Pittsburgh, or some of Ellie, Bill and Joel. Hope next week's episode is just as carefully tended to as this week's was.
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vpance
Member
When the Max Richter song played I couldn't help but chuckle. Maybe almost as cheap of an emotional trick as having Ellie kill the dog to show how she is terrible.
Insane Metal
Gold Member
Ok!
I'll keep watching this. I love the game.
I'll keep watching this. I love the game.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
Y’all got any thoughts on wine pairings with rabbit?
Pedro Motta
Member
Wouldn't you like to see that, you repressed little rascal.
DForce
Member
No, his argument was that it adds to Joel's motivation and you called it a weird take because he didn't need motivation in the game because he was going to do it anyways. You said he didn't need to see a living couple without realizing that the scenes from the game and the show have different meanings in connection with his story and motivation.
It doesn't. What you're saying is not backed up by the game's plot.
No, his response to saying I'm not your daughter and we're going our separate ways is out of anger. What caused him to change is when Ellie told him that he cares about him and that she would be scared with someone else.
You clearly said Tommy's too deeply rooted where he is and Joel stays with Ellie. In episode 3, Joel tells Ellie that Tommy will take her where she needs to go, which is slightly different from the game. We already know there's going to be the scene where Joel tells Ellie that she doesn't know what loss is and that the same (or similar) conversation will play out.
Nope, that's not what happened. Joel's heart changed towards Ellie before they made it to Tommy's. That is why he was scared of either losing her or watching her die. In the very next chapter, you see Ellie and Joel being closer than ever before, which indicates that a change of heart happened prior. So if his regret came later, then what scene shows it? The look on Joel's face while riding back with Tommy shows he felt sorry about what he said to Ellie. He wouldn't have this regret unless he loved her, something of which he did not display early in the game.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Ellie is a psychopath, lol. Don’t let the little cute demeanor in the first game fool you. There were hints in the first game as well, and it blossomed fully in the second.
Bill also had the explosives and the spotlights shining at them during a downpour, they didn’t know where the shots were coming from, and he didn’t want the bullets to head toward his house with Frank in it. Bill was also a savage just like that in the game. He was probably ‘slicing the pie’ sticking and moving instead of staying in a stationary target of a building that can get surrounded. It wasn’t until Frank distracted his ass whooping he was dealing.
Now granted he should have been behind cover, but I don’t think he was there the entire time. He wasn’t when Frank looked out the window.
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AutumnLeaves
Member
But it does drive the main narrative forward...?
Chiggs
Member
Okay, maybe explain to me again how it did? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...and I'll own up to it.
Because what it seemed like to me was that it took its sweet time showing you the detailed progression of Bill and Frank's relationship, only to introduce current day Joel and Ellie at the very end, and then have them leave for Pittsburgh after reading Bill's letter and getting the key.
So if you're going to say it was the letter and key that moves things forward, well, I mean...I hope you can see where I'm coming from on this one.
AutumnLeaves
Member
No, I really don't see where you're coming from.
The episode shows life of two characters, albeit in more detail. Just because it takes a whole episode does not, in any way, make it stagnant.
So is that it? That it spends so much time to show their life that is bothering people?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Because without Frank, Bill would’ve still been a cold callous jaded misanthrope. Exactly what Joel was at the time.
The letter was to remind Joel that even in that shitty world, there are still things worth fighting for. That is why Joel got emotional outside and didn’t want Ellie to see that at the time. The letter was the catalyst to put into perspective which eventually awakens the love for Ellie. The someone worth fighting for, worth saving.
Reminded him of Sarah, and reminded him of Tess. What he sees as his failures, and a bitter hateful man for it.
That episode gave us a whole new perspective on Joel’s decision at the end.
He’s the tragic hero in this story.
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Tokio Blues
Member
What an episode. Fucking brilliant, just amazing, was a masterclass in story telling.
I don't know what this says about me but living that kind of life with my wife sounds like living the life in many ways. If he wasn't a paranoid prepper he would have ended up in that mass grave and Frank would have ended up in Boston barely existing. He was right to distrust authority.
Ulysses 31
Member
Nope, another weird reach of yours. Never said game Joel didn't need motivation to grow closer to Ellie, I said several times now that the game gives enough motivations for Joel to start caring about Ellie. The weirdness came into play when the TV show came up with new things not in the game which is why I started speculating that some motivational things from the game might get cut or altered in future episodes.
Sure it does, just listen to what Joel says to Tommy before the attack and later on when he was about to leave Ellie with Tommy before they knew she had wandered off. Joel was ready to leave Ellie.
And I believe Joel was still capable of cutting off Ellie form his life at that point when he said that.
Because that's what Tommy tells Joel when he refuses to take off Ellie from him. We don't know if that dialogue will be in the TV show. Remember that Tommy and Joel are estranged in the TV show also and Tommy might not just do what Joel asks him to either.
Seems like a matter of opinion when exactly Joel had his change of heart but it seems clear it had occurred when he decided to continue alone with Ellie and sent Tommy back.
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Chiggs
Member
Gotcha. So the extra padding on the love story is arguably warranted because it helps round out Bill, which then serves to inspire Joel via the letter.
I can see why people dig the changes.
Justin9mm
Member
Well said.
Unfortunately, a lot of ppl don't have the ability to interpret all that from watching it. Imo this is why some people can't understand the TLOU Part 2 story. They think they understand but they really don't.
GametimeUK
Member
I like the fact we have gay representation on TV. The story itself for this episode was brilliant. The actor that played Bill was incredible and shown so much development through the episode. It was a great piece of self contained television, but it was a shit TLOU episode in the grand scheme of things.
I don't think we needed to focus on the relationship for over an hour. I also hate the amount they've cut from the game. Getting through Bill's traps, the school, the Bloater etc. I loved this part of the game. I also think Bill and Frank's relationship panned out better in the game too.
I just feel this episode took way too long establishing a relationship between two characters that we barely see interact with our main cast. I wonder if we will get similar episodes in the future. If we do it will make this episode seem less disjointed and out of place.
I don't think we needed to focus on the relationship for over an hour. I also hate the amount they've cut from the game. Getting through Bill's traps, the school, the Bloater etc. I loved this part of the game. I also think Bill and Frank's relationship panned out better in the game too.
I just feel this episode took way too long establishing a relationship between two characters that we barely see interact with our main cast. I wonder if we will get similar episodes in the future. If we do it will make this episode seem less disjointed and out of place.
Chiggs
Member
Well, I don’t want to spoil the moment of civility, but while I can understand why people like it and why the expansion is arguably needed/works, I just think I would have enjoyed a different usage of that time. It still feels indulgent. But hey, a lot of people loved what they got…
In terms of TLOU II, if there’s any mass confusion about its plot, which I don’t think there is, it has only itself to blame. The game has some of the worst pacing I’ve ever seen, courtesy of its constant use of flashbacks. It’s also painfully long.
Buy hey, at least we got to see Ellie cut an infected man this week, so when she becomes the Butcher of Seattle in Season 2, nobody can accuse her of going Daenerys Season 8 on us.
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DForce
Member
It's like you're not even paying attention.
I specifically mentioned that Joel wanted to drop Ellie off with Tommy because he was afraid of losing her. Then you said it would be weird because he was planning on leaving her with Tommy. Losing means losing her in death. Now you're changing your argument so much that you're agreeing with what I said. It's ridiculous. lol If this was your original point, then you would have agreed with me from the beginning. You tried to paint a picture that Joel didn't care for Ellie that much because he was leaving her with Tommy.
Notice when you said "is that Joel stays with Ellie." It's clear that your original point was to say that he decides to stay with Ellie because Tommy refused. Joel was ready to hand Ellie off AFTER the attack, but she ran away and Joel and Tommy left to go find her. This wouldn't have happened if Ellie stayed unless Ellie convinced him to stay.
That's really not backed up because he showed instant regret.
Ellie tells Joel he cares for him. Joel tells Ellie you're not my daughter and that they're going their separate ways. On the way back Joel showed regret. This is one scene after another. You don't show that expression on Joel's face unless you want the audience to see that he wanted to take back the words he said to Ellie. Most of what you're saying isn't backed up by the story lol
Here's the thing: Every scene has a purpose in the game and on the TV show. The scenes with Bill were in direct connection with his character and his motivations going forward. Joel obviously cared more for Ellie after the chapter with Herny and Sam compared to earlier in the game.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I didn’t really see it as padding, but fleshing out a fan favorite side character, as well as telling a bittersweet story on how a man can change.
Hugare
Member
Bill's journey is going to be Joel's journey
It's way more important to the story than any other sidecharacter arch. Even Tess.
The bloater, the traps, the school, all that was cool, but it had no purpose to the story. It just worked because it was a videogame, not a TV show.
And it took a long time to establish their relationship so it could resonate with viewers and build the bridge between their relationship and Joel/Ellie's
You may not enjoy slow paced episodes such as this one, but it executed what it tried to do masterfuly
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Yes, this episode sets the stage for everything that is to come.
To say it's a wasted episode is ridiculous, imho. The ending scene with the note says it all. And they told Bill's story to do that in a much more meaningful way than the game did. In the game, Bill was a throwaway character and a means to just have some cool set piece scenes to play. He didn't have nearly as much development as this episode.
Roni
Member
Dude, you just admitted that two guys kissing is worse than gore. The last part of your statement is out the window.
Listing an act of love as worse than gouging someone's eyes out is definitely a reason to get checked out.
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Yoboman
Member
It's called the Last of Us not the Last of Joel and Ellie
The game story always showed different perspectives on how people connect in the post apocalypse
Joel and Tess relationship
Bill and Frank relationship falling apart
Sam and Henry surviving as brothers and Henry becoming a father figure
Tommy and Joel with Rommy becoming estranged and a leader of a community
Tommy and his wife Maria
David being the evil reflection of Tommy, leading people with brutal cannibal methods
Marlene's relationship with Ellie, Joel
Ellie and Riley
Except now it's a TV show so they can show additional layers to these characters that don't require the presence of the main characters like the game does
Beastclaw Raider
Member
One extreme: gay
Other extreme: this is 10/10, masterpiece, wow! Brilliant
First of all if you have problems watching a same sex couple kissing each other, you might requestion yourself. Second of all, replace that same sex couple with opposite sex couple and it'll still be a very, very good episode but nowhere near brilliant, 10/10, masterpiece etc... level
Man, anything has to be either black or white these days...
In other news, this episode makes me wish that they'd write some kind of a spinoff series, kind of like the walking dead did, with how it's going on in another part of the world and new characters because this original episode was great and I'd like more of that.
Other extreme: this is 10/10, masterpiece, wow! Brilliant
First of all if you have problems watching a same sex couple kissing each other, you might requestion yourself. Second of all, replace that same sex couple with opposite sex couple and it'll still be a very, very good episode but nowhere near brilliant, 10/10, masterpiece etc... level
Man, anything has to be either black or white these days...
In other news, this episode makes me wish that they'd write some kind of a spinoff series, kind of like the walking dead did, with how it's going on in another part of the world and new characters because this original episode was great and I'd like more of that.
Represent.
Banned
Only a matter of time before they announce a spin-off. It’ll happen. Without Neil and Mazin but it’ll happen.
There’s endless stories to tell in this universe
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Beastclaw Raider
Member
Yeah but Mazin and Neil are doing an excellent job so far, not sure about anyone else doing it
SlimySnake
The Contrarian
Yep. I want the next episode to be about Sam and Henry surviving with the episode starting with Sam's mom giving birth to him, dying during child birth leaving Henry all alone to raise him. We see as they travel through america in search of food. The episode then ends with Sam getting bit and Henry blowing his head off. Soon after Ellie and Joel walk in on their dead bodies and read a note that tells them to keep fighting for their loved ones, and if they fail, they can always commit suicide.
Episode 5 should be about Tommy and Maria meeting and falling in love. I want to see married with children sitcom where they nag each other to death and we get to see what life is really like in a quiet suburban Colorado town. The episode ends with Tommy leaving a note for Joel telling him to be glad his wife is dead because marriage if fucking torture.
David and his crew of cannibal pedos get two hour long episodes as Neil dissects what it means to be a cannibal in post apocalyptic america. With human meat being scarce thanks to zombies turning everyone, David learns to accept that he must let Ellie live so we can repopulate the world for other cannibals in the future.
Wonderful oscar winning writing.
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They really want that 40 year old woman who love their soaps demographic huh..
DForce
Member
As someone who enjoys writing and creating stories, you don't seem to understand that writers are passionate about all the characters that they make.
Most of the characters have a purpose, and writers want an opportunity to tell each and every single one of their stories.
The thing about TV shows, movies, and video games is that writers often have to make compromises. The things you're seeing on screen are probably ideas Neil Duckmann created more than 10 years ago and now he finally has a chance to tell. As for this episode in particular, it was Craig who wrote the script and probably got some input from Neil Duckmann.
It's not unusual for writers to dedicate episodes to other characters. One example I can use is from Batman: The Animated Series. There's a two part episode that focuses on the story of Harvey Dent/Two-Face. The story is about batman, but they also want you to care about characters outside of the main protagonist.
People talk about bad writing, but if your story only focuses on the main protagonist(s), then you should really consider dedicating time to other characters.
James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
Neil already stated that Episode 3 was the biggest departure from the game. They obviously aren't going to overplay these external characters to the detriment of Joel/Ellie. Episode 3 was simply the right situation to take a rather inconsequential character (Bill) and flesh him out into actually having genuine meaning for the rest of the series.
Don't get me wrong, Bill's section in the game is awesome to play, but I think in the context of a TV series, it's much more impactful what they did here.
LordOfChaos
Member
I was not expecting that Ron Swanson
Represent.
Banned
They need to bring this voice actor back to the show somehow. Fucking hell
The tears as shes eating that corpse makes it even creepier now knowing that in this stage they are fully aware of whats going on - they just cant control it
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
He’s also someone who knows exactly who his audience is, and knows to pander at them as much as possible to maintain his income stream.
The guy occasionally has some decent insights, but his critical skills are marred heavily by the constant need to appeal to a certain demographic.
Oh, and James Patterson probably didn't work with him. Jordan would have written that short story all by himself. Patterson literally licences his name out. It’s common knowledge in publishing.
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DForce
Member
He is? Then he should learn what the word retcon means.
He believes they retconned Joel by making him weak in part two. He says he doesn't try to stand up to Ellie and make his case.
Uhh. Does he remember the scene with Joel and Ellie at the diner? Joel was frustrated with Ellie and held on to his lie. He only showed weakness when he was forced to tell Ellie the truth, and that would break any man who loves someone. This is the same man who tried to show compassion for Henry before he killed himself.
Uhh. Does he remember the scene with Joel and Ellie at the diner? Joel was frustrated with Ellie and held on to his lie. He only showed weakness when he was forced to tell Ellie the truth, and that would break any man who loves someone. This is the same man who tried to show compassion for Henry before he killed himself.
He also talks about how Ellie's personality is different in comparison to the game. Did he completely forget the entire chapter with Bill in the game? It's the same controlling personality. Even Joel had a difficult time telling her to be quiet when he was with Bill.
You just have to shake your head because Critical Drinker should have easily picked up on this stuff.
MasterCornholio
Member
And with that, let’s move on
I took that as secretly wanting to sleep with your sister for some reason.
This has been a weird thread.
