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News Hardware [Hardware Busters] The New PS5 is Actually Better

DarkMage619

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I will settle this for the sake of transparency.

It was said and edited by a mod since we don't want threads going down that path with a derail such as that. Now everyone move along and get back on topic of the petty degree measurements and copper ounces.

Thank you.
I did not accuse anyone here of doxxing. I assumed that people on this forum are good natured and intelligent. I was referencing the broader community. This conversation is bigger than this forum. For anyone who felt I was speaking specifically about them I apologize. I will reiterate this is about video games and the comments about petty degree measurements and copper ounces is not lost. We should all be respectful of each other's opinions.
 
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Md Ray

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Compare two coolers from the same manufacturer that uses same materials. Take Noctua NH-D15 v NH-U12S as example Bigger = Better .
Noctua are top-notch.

It's possible the OG PS5's heatsink wasn't as efficient as the new model's despite being bulkier and larger. But both models have the same number of heat pipes though.
 

Dream-Knife

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Yes, they've adopted a different strategy where the clocks aren't variable based on the temps.

Sorry for the long post. There's a lot more In this DF article.
That kind of doesn't make sense. It sounds like they disabled the temp sensor and just force a profile on it.


Why hasn't anyone put the old heat sink in a new ps5?
 
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PropellerEar

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I did not accuse anyone here of doxxing. I assumed that people on this forum are good natured and intelligent. I was referencing the broader community. This conversation is bigger than this forum. For anyone who felt I was speaking specifically about them I apologize. I will reiterate this is about video games and the comments about petty degree measurements and copper ounces is not lost. We should all be respectful of each other's opinions.
Except you were not respectful.
DirkMagusDCXIX @fanfiction.net you finally did it.
 
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Noctua are top-notch.

It's possible the OG PS5's heatsink wasn't as efficient as the new model's despite being bulkier and larger. But both models have the same number of heat pipes though.
I'm with twilo99 twilo99 on this. Something must have been changed on software level + possibly faster fan speed, explaining why its louder. Waiting for GN results.
 

dcmk7

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I did not accuse anyone here of doxxing. I assumed that people on this forum are good natured and intelligent. I was referencing the broader community. This conversation is bigger than this forum. For anyone who felt I was speaking specifically about them I apologize. I will reiterate this is about video games and the comments about petty degree measurements and copper ounces is not lost. We should all be respectful of each other's opinions.
It starts from you.

When you were accusing me and others of lying were you being respectful? You knew you were lying but carried on with the charade.

To accuse people of dishonesty and not even apologise is kind of poor form too.

Hope you learn soon enough.
 
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azertydu91

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It starts from you.

When you were accusing me and others of lying were you being respectful?

To accuse people of dishonesty and not even apologise is kind of poor form too.

Hope you learn soon enough.
Except you were not respectful.
DirkMagusDCXIX @fanfiction.net you finally did it.
Guys let's just stop now we saw he did say what he claimed he didn't.If you want to take further action use the ignore list and that's it.
 

Tripolygon

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That kind of doesn't make sense. It sounds like they disabled the temp sensor and just force a profile on it.
Yes and it makes perfect sense if you want all chips to perform exactly the same and not depending on ambient temperature. They know the max power the whole system and APU will draw so they know the amount of cooling sufficient to keep the APU under normal temperature.

AMD does not care if you buy their CPU or GPU and run it at 5GHz to boost the frame rate of the game you want to run. The CPU or GPU would thermal throttle if you don't have sufficient cooling.

Sony cares that every PS5 runs exactly the same no matter the ambient temperature so they take "temperature" out of the equation. They don't disable temperature sensor they just don't use the data for the same purpose your CPU would. The workload determines the power draw and frequency, not temperature.
 
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ethomaz

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Are you sure about that? RDNA boost clocks are kind of dependent on thermals and will adjust on the fly in duration depending on load AND thermals.

I believe what we're seeing in power difference is the equivalent of longer/steady boost clocks due to lower thermals. Same thing happens on RDNA 2 where undervolting it results in lower thermals and results in better performances with longer boost clocks. I can't imagine Sony playing with AMD's boost clock logic on that fine detail, especially since Cerny basically embraced boost clocks.
Yes... it is based in workload not thermals.
The frequency/performance won't change no matter the tempereture.
That is unique to PS5... no RDNA or RDNA 2 card do that.

Road of PS5.

"The simplest approach would be to look at the actual temperature of the silicon die and throttle the frequency on that basis.

But that won't work it fails to create a consistent PlayStation 5 experience it wouldn't do to run a console slower simply because it was in a hot room.

So rather than look at the actual temperature of the silicon die we look at the activities that the GPU and CPU are performing and set the frequencies on that basis which makes everything deterministic and repeatable."
 
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ethomaz

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That kind of doesn't make sense. It sounds like they disabled the temp sensor and just force a profile on it.


Why hasn't anyone put the old heat sink in a new ps5?
It does make sense...

Instead of GPU/CPU for PC that allow people to overclock... PS5 is a fixed hardware... so in PC you can overclock your chip until it throttle based in the limit temperatures regulated by the power control.

On PS5 you don't need that because you won't even reach or cross the limit in temperatures... so Sony choose to control the power by workload... so all PS5 console will run at the same performance no matter where it running (North Pole or Saara).

Actually that is a better strategy than what is used today in PC components but you need to understand that that will only work with fixed hardware... any one that allow overclock will need to have a temperature power control.
 
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strange headache

Fluctuat nec mergitur
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How much louder is a 1 dB increase?​

A 1 dB change in a sound equates to about a 26% difference in sound energy (remember that a 3 dB difference is a doubling of energy levels). In terms of subjective loudness, a 1 dB change yields just over a 7% change. A 3 dB change yields a 100% increase in sound energy and just over a 23% increase in loudness.

It is around 23% more perceived volume.
It is 100% more sound energy.

Each 1db increase around 7% the loudness.

Is it louder if you can't hear the difference? And power draw is similar because that is how the whole console is designed. I'd wait for Gamers Nexus to trust any of the temps though because they seem too low to me.

Do you guys even realize that decibels are a logarithmic scale?

For example, a sound 10 times louder than 0dB would be 10dB. Because the scale is logarithmic, a sound 100 times louder than 0 dB would be 20dB.
That means that the difference between 30dB and 40dB is much smaller than between 80dB and 90dB.

Also 1dB is defined as the smallest amount of volume change that a person can subjectively perceive. So a difference in 3dB is very well noticeable.
 

Md Ray

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I'm with twilo99 twilo99 on this. Something must have been changed on software level + possibly faster fan speed, explaining why its louder. Waiting for GN results.
Looks like you haven't watched the vid. Fan speeds are the same on both, the noise is 1dB higher which is within standard deviation.

Also, he notes the reason for higher noise output is due to the heatsink being less restrictive than the OG model. Timestamped:

 

Md Ray

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Yes and it makes perfect sense if you want all chips to perform exactly the same and not depending on ambient temperature. They know the max power the whole system and APU will draw so they know the amount of cooling sufficient to keep the APU under normal temperature.

AMD does not care if you buy their CPU or GPU and run it at 5GHz to boost the frame rate of the game you want to run. The CPU or GPU would thermal throttle if you don't have sufficient cooling.

Sony cares that every PS5 runs exactly the same no matter the ambient temperature so they take "temperature" out of the equation. They don't disable temperature sensor they just don't use the data for the same purpose your CPU would. The workload determines the power draw and frequency, not temperature.
Thank you.
 
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Md Ray

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It's possible the OG PS5's heatsink wasn't as efficient as the new model's despite being bulkier and larger. But both models have the same number of heat pipes though.
I'm with twilo99 twilo99 on this. Something must have been changed on software level + possibly faster fan speed, explaining why its louder. Waiting for GN results.
Compare two coolers from the same manufacturer that uses same materials. Take Noctua NH-D15 v NH-U12S as example Bigger = Better .
considering the revision has what looks like a much inferior cooling solution. Air cooling 101: smaller in size and 300 g lighter = worse cooling.
"A lot less copper doesn't mean worse cooling."

 
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Something is not right here for sure, considering the revision has what looks like a much inferior cooling solution. Air cooling 101: smaller in size and 300 g lighter = worse cooling.

Cooling has nothing to do with the size and weight of the heat sink and everything to do with the exposed surface area and airflow characteristics.

For those interested, heat transfer by convection (from the finned metal into the flowing air), is mostly governed by the following equation:

Q = U x A x ΔT

Where,

Q is the heat transfer rate in Joules per unit time
ΔT is the temperature differential between the bulk airflow and the finned metal surface temperature
U is the overall heat transfer coefficient (which in this case is a function of the flowing air properties including the velocity)
and A is the surface area exposed to the flowing heat transfer medium (i.e. air) used for heat exchange

The most efficient heat sink design will maximise heat sink finned surface area while minimising materials used (thus material cost). So the weight is only relevant to the material cost, not the cooling performance.

You can have a finned heat sink with thinner plates and a smaller pitch between plates, that uses less material and provides superior cooling because it maximises surface area, but you'd have to trade that off against the airflow characteristics that would impact the overall heat transfer coefficient, as well as the overall system acoustic profile.
 
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Looks like you haven't watched the vid. Fan speeds are the same on both, the noise is 1dB higher which is within standard deviation.

Also, he notes the reason for higher noise output is due to the heatsink being less restrictive than the OG model. Timestamped:

I'm sorry, but 34C on load doesn't make sense.
 

azertydu91

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Cooling has nothing to do with the size and weight of the heat sink and everything to do with the exposed surface area.

For those interested, heat transfer by convection (from the finned metal into the flowing air), is mostly governed by the following equation:

Q = U x A x ΔT

Where,

Q is the heat transfer rate in Joules per unit time
ΔT is the temperature differential between the bulk airflow and the finned metal surface temperature
U is the overall heat transfer coefficient (which in this case is a function of the flowing air properties including the velocity)
and A is the surface area exposed to the flowing heat transfer medium (i.e. air) used for heat exchange

The most efficient heat sink design will maximise heat sink finned surface area while minimising materials used (thus material cost). So the weight is only relevant to the material cost, not the cooling performance.

You can have a finned heat sink with thinner plates and a smaller pitch between plates, that uses less material and provides superior cooling because it maximises surface area, but you'd have to trade that off against the airflow characteristics that would impact the overall heat transfer coefficient, as well as the overall system acoustic profile.
That's really interesting but I guess airflow coming through the surface area would be important too and the important thing would be to find the best ration between pin size and proximity so the airflow isn't slowed down too much to allow a better cooling.
because i guess the best way to maximise surface would be to have long fins or pins really close to eachother but that would slow down airflow thus reducing the cool down.
So with better airflow you can have less surface with better cooling.
 
Jan 7, 2018
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Cooling has nothing to do with the size and weight of the heat sink and everything to do with the exposed surface area.

For those interested, heat transfer by convection (from the finned metal into the flowing air), is mostly governed by the following equation:

Q = U x A x ΔT

Where,

Q is the heat transfer rate in Joules per unit time
ΔT is the temperature differential between the bulk airflow and the finned metal surface temperature
U is the overall heat transfer coefficient (which in this case is a function of the flowing air properties including the velocity)
and A is the surface area exposed to the flowing heat transfer medium (i.e. air) used for heat exchange

The most efficient heat sink design will maximise heat sink finned surface area while minimising materials used (thus material cost). So the weight is only relevant to the material cost, not the cooling performance.

You can have a finned heat sink with thinner plates and a smaller pitch between plates, that uses less material and provides superior cooling because it maximises surface area, but you'd have to trade that off against the airflow characteristics that would impact the overall heat transfer coefficient, as well as the overall system acoustic profile.
Where do you think size comes from? Bigger = larger fins = longer heat pipes = heavier = better cooling. [if materials used were the same]

All other factors must be identical. Example: lower voltage will drastically reduce heat. In this case even smaller cooler could outperform larger one.

---------------
I hope you're not trying to tell me smaller cooler will outperform larger one when same materials, similar design were used. You can take ANY 2 coolers from the same manufacturer of the same 'generation' and larger heavier will always outperform smaller one.
 
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azertydu91

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Where do you think size comes from? Bigger = larger fins = longer heat pipes = heavier = better cooling. [if materials used were of the same conductivity on both]

All other factors must be identical. Example: lower voltage will drastically reduce heat. In this case even smaller cooler could outperform larger one.
Larger fin doesn't increase surface it is the opposite,simply because a 1cmx1cmx1cm cube has less surface than if it were sliced into thinner tube because you also get surface from inside the cube.

Edit a better example would be the alveolas in lungs th outside surface is around 3m² but the alveolas inside are around 100m²
 
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That's really interesting but I guess airflow coming through the surface area would be important too and the important thing would be to find the best ration between pin size and proximity so the airflow isn't slowed down too much to allow a better cooling.
because i guess the best way to maximise surface would be to have long fins or pins really close to eachother but that would slow down airflow thus reducing the cool down.
So with better airflow you can have less surface with better cooling.

Yeah, the airflow characteristics are encaptured in the heat transfer coefficient part of the equation.

It's all based on the velocity profile of the air as it approaches the metal surface. The flowing fluid produces a boundary layer of lower velocity gas local to the metal surface. The greater the fluid velocity, the thinner this boundary layer. The layer itself imposes a resistance to heat transfer, so the objective of the heat sink designer is to design the channels to maximise air velocity together with available finned surface area.

Since fans running at a fixed speed produce a fixed volumetric flow of air, the velocity of the air is dependent on the cross-sectional area of the airflow channel perpendicular to the direction of the air flow. Thus, the channel design is critical to maximising air velocity given a fixed fan speed.
 
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Larger fin doesn't increase surface it is the opposite,simply because a 1cmx1cmx1cm cube has less surface than if it were sliced into thinner tube because you also get surface from inside the cube.

Edit a better example would be the alveolas in lungs th outside surface is around 3m² but the alveolas inside are around 100m²
Please show me one example where a smaller cooler from same gen outperforms a larger heavier one from same manufacturer. Thank you.

You can pick any manufacturer Noctua, Cooler master, be quiet, any. Use same fan setup and case too. Can't wait. Remember only Air coolers allowed.
 
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azertydu91

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Yeah, the airflow characteristics are encaptured in the heat transfer coefficient part of the equation.

It's all based on the velocity profile of the air as it approaches the metal surface. The flowing fluid produces a boundary layer of lower velocity gas local to the metal surface. The greater the fluid velocity, the thinner this boundary layer. The layer itself imposes a resistance to heat transfer, so the objective of the heat sink designer is to design the channels to maximise air velocity together with available finned surface area.

Since fans running at a fixed speed produce a fixed volumetric flow of air, the velocity of the air is dependent on the cross-sectional area of the airflow channel perpendicular to the direction of the air flow. Thus, the channel design is critical to maximising air velocity given a fixed fan speed.
I have a question and I don't know if you can answer it but would a vacuum system filled with a thinner gas but more easily heatable would be possible and a good cooling solution(of course with something to coold that gas like in a water cooler).
I was thinking with ionized air first that would reduced friction and would probably increase air flow but I'm not sure it would be compatible with all the metal and electrical current.
 
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Where do you think size comes from? Bigger = larger fins = longer heat pipes = heavier = better cooling. [if materials used were the same]

All other factors must be identical. Example: lower voltage will drastically reduce heat. In this case even smaller cooler could outperform larger one.

---------------
I hope you're not trying to tell me smaller cooler will outperform larger one when same materials, similar design were used. You can take ANY 2 coolers from the same manufacturer of the same 'generation' and larger heavier will always outperform smaller one.

A bigger heat sink in terms of volume doesn't necessarily have to mean more surface area. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can have thinner fins with a smaller pitch that provides greater overall heat transfer in a more compact size.

You also have to consider the airflow path. You can design a heat sink with exactly the same mass of metal, within a larger size (volume) but with worse airflow path such that the overall heat transfer coefficient is significantly lower because you've increased the boundary layer between each of the fins.
 

azertydu91

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Please show me one example where a smaller cooler from same gen outperforms a larger heavier one from same manufacturer. Thank you.

You can pick any manufacturer Noctua, Cooler master, be quiet, any. Can't wait.
I was talking about the fins and/or pins uniquely where you can have more surface with less material.Once again check my edit about the lung's alveolas.
 
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I was talking about the fins and/or pins uniquely where you can have more surface with less material.Once again check my edit about the lung's alveolas.
You should teach Noctua or anyone else how to make their smaller coolers outperform larger ones. I'd be very thankful.
 
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I have a question and I don't know if you can answer it but would a vacuum system filled with a thinner gas but more easily heatable would be possible and a good cooling solution(of course with something to coold that gas like in a water cooler).
I was thinking with ionized air first that would reduced friction and would probably increase air flow but I'm not sure it would be compatible with all the metal and electrical current.

You don't want a thinner less dense gas!

While maximum heat transfer possible for a given heat sink design is determined by the above equation, there is a limit to the amount of heat the gas as a heat transfer fluid itself can absorb. That's governed by the following:

Q = m x Cp x ΔT

Where,
m is the mass flow rate of the fluid
Cp is the specific heat capacity of the fluid
and ΔT is the temperature change of the fluid.

Dropping the pressure of the heat transfer fluid decreases the density and so decreases the mass flow rate of the fluid, thus dropping the overall heat absorption rate in the above equation.

Ideally, you'd want to increase the air pressure, but this requires a considerable amount of mechanical work and thus electrical power to achieve. And so for devices like these, any compressor type fans only increase the pressure by a few hundred millibars at best, but doing so also raises the acoustic output as the higher pressure air exits the console and expands again into the open air.

The density dependence is why liquid cooling is better than air cooling because for the same volumetric flowrate you can take two to three orders of magnitude higher heat absorption, making the water cooling loop an effective heat sink.
 
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A bigger heat sink in terms of volume doesn't necessarily have to mean more surface area. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can have thinner fins with a smaller pitch that provides greater overall heat transfer in a more compact size.

You also have to consider the airflow path. You can design a heat sink with exactly the same mass of metal, within a larger size (volume) but with worse airflow path such that the overall heat transfer coefficient is significantly lower because you've increased the boundary layer between each of the fins.
I'll wait for real product examples. Remember has to be from the same manufacturer, same materials used , same gen coolers. You're claiming smaller beats larger. Can't wait :messenger_winking:
 

GHG

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I'll wait for real product examples. Remember has to be from the same manufacturer, same materials used , same gen coolers. You're claiming smaller beats larger. Can't wait :messenger_winking:

There's no such thing as a fucking cooler "gen". Cooler manufacturers improve the efficiency of their products over time and that often leads to a reduction in weight and size of the cooler over time.

Why are you doubling down on stupidity?
 
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You should teach Noctua or anyone else how to make their smaller coolers outperform larger ones. I'd be very thankful.

For starters, PC =====/////===== Consoles.

As the air flow path through the heat sinks on a PC are notoriously shit because it's not directed and so heat transfer by radiation from the finned area plays a bigger role.

On consoles, with the more compact design, the air flow can be specifically directed by designing in a desired air flow path to optimise the cooling system design.

So any conclusions you're making about the PC side absolutely do not carry over to consoles.
 
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azertydu91

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You don't want a thinner less dense gas!

While maximum heat transfer possible for a given heat sink design is determined by the above equation, there is a limit to the amount of heat the gas as a heat transfer fluid itself can absorb. That's governed by the following:

Q = m x Cp x ΔT

Where,
m is the mass flow rate of the fluid
Cp is the specific heat capacity of the fluid
and ΔT is the temperature change of the fluid.

Dropping the pressure of the heat transfer fluid decreases the density and so decreases the mass flow rate of the fluid, thus dropping the overall heat absorption rate in the above equation.

Ideally, you'd want to increase the air pressure, but this requires a considerable amount of mechanical work and thus electrical power to achieve. And so for devices like these, any compressor type fans only increase the pressure by a few hundred millibars at best, but doing so also raises the acoustic output as the higher pressure air exits the console and expands again into the open air.

The density dependence is why liquid cooling is better than air cooling because for the same volumetric flowrate you can take two to three orders of magnitude higher heat absorption, making the water cooling loop an effective heat sink.
Alright that was an enlightening answer there and thank you very much for taking the time to answer me.And thicker would not be interesting too because if you can use thicker why don't you use liquid directly of course.
That was a great response and probably the best that has come out of this thread for me.
 
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I just love people who rather talk for hours or better yet quote some text online not fully understanding what they're saying, but as soon you tell them to show any examples they disappear.
 
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I'll wait for real product examples. Remember has to be from the same manufacturer, same materials used , same gen coolers. You're claiming smaller beats larger. Can't wait :messenger_winking:
See above.

Heat sink products for PCs are practically irrelevant to the cooling design of consoles.

On PC, the airflow path is unbounded, thus the mechanism for heat transfer from the metal to the air relies more on radiation.

On consoles, the airflow path is specifically designed to maximise cooling efficiency, so the primary mechanism for heat transfer is convection.
 
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twilo99

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Something is not right here for sure, considering the revision has what looks like a much inferior cooling solution. Air cooling 101: smaller in size and 300 g lighter = worse cooling.

Whatever they did, its working.. If that temp read is of course accurate. Voltage can be huge, they might've also lowered the clock speed on the CPU or the GPU, we can't really know.

What I don't understand is why did they change anything at all? Is the original design not good enough? Did they find something wrong with it? Is it cost cutting? I'm really curious. I knew we will see an updated version sooner than any previous model, but I was more thinking about the "pro" or whatever, not this mini intern hack of a job.
 
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GHG

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I just love people who rather talk for hours or better yet quote some text online not fully understanding what they're saying, but as soon you tell them to show any examples they disappear.

You were shown an example of smaller and lighter coolers outperforming larger ones on the previous page, it was a previous post of mine that was quoted but you've chosen to ignore it while continuing to spiral down the path that you're on at the moment. I'm not sure anyone can help you at this point since this is how you're choosing to behave:

Not Listening Friends Tv GIF
 
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I just love people who rather talk for hours or better yet quote some text online not fully understanding what they're saying, but as soon you tell them to show any examples they disappear.

I just can't stand people who are so fucking ignorant of a subject yet so arrogant, they assume they actually know what they're talking about while demanding for examples that they are too ignorant to understand aren't even relevant to the current subject matter.

You good sir are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect that is endemic on the internet. It's not a good look at all.
 
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There's no such thing as a fucking cooler "gen". Cooler manufacturers improve the efficiency of their products over time and that often leads to a reduction in weight and size of the cooler over time.

Why are you doubling down on stupidity?
Thats exactly why I labeled them as 'same gen', because you can have a large cooler from 15 years ago even from same manufacturer using diff materials, maybe thicker but far less fins, perform worse than much smaller and lighter one having thinner, but far more fins maybe even a few more pipes and weighting far less. No need to act like a child with name calling just because I question the validity of results in op.
 
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azertydu91

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I just can't stand people who are so fucking ignorant of a subject yet so arrogant, they assume they actually know what they're talking about while demanding for examples that they are too ignorant to understand aren't even relevant to the current subject matter.

You good sir are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect that is endemic on the internet. It's not a good look at all.
If you wonder it is called ultracrepidarianism.
 
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I just can't stand people who are so fucking ignorant of a subject yet so arrogant, they assume they actually know what they're talking about while demanding for examples that they are too ignorant to understand aren't even relevant to the current subject matter.

You good sir are a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect that is endemic on the internet. It's not a good look at all.
So you don't have an example? I'm very surprised.
 
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You were shown an example of smaller and lighter coolers outperforming larger ones on the previous page, it was a previous post of mine that was quoted but you've chosen to ignore it while continuing to spiral down the path that you're on at the moment. I'm not sure anyone can help you at this point since this is how you're choosing to behave:

Not Listening Friends Tv GIF

Ah childish gif again. Anyway which cooler exactly? Don't wanna watch such a long vid.

 

GHG

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So you just gonna run away like a coward with red nose? Fine by me.

So instead of taking initiative after being pointed in the right direction you still want to be spoon-fed information? I could have told you anything and you would have believed it. Do you not see the problem with that?

Spend less time talking nonsense and more time researching/learning.
 
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So instead of taking initiative after being pointed in the right direction you still want to be spoon-fed information? I could have told you anything and you would have believed it. Do you not see the problem with that?

Spend less time talking nonsense and more time researching/learning.
I would have simply showed you how wrong you are.