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Gran Turismo 7 to only support Ray tracing in Replays

Fortress of Regrets

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The new consoles launched at a really awkward moment in terms of ray-tracing. In time to implement the tech, but too late to do it in any meaningful way.
 
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makaveli60

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with the lighting in the Unreal Engine 5, who needs RT?
They don’t get it for some reason..... it’s always 60fps!!!120fps!!!4k!!!ray-traced reflections!!! (Which they can’t even differentiate from ssr...). These people are holding back gaming...
 

Hunnybun

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The new consoles launched at a really awkward moment in terms of ray-tracing. In time to implement the tech, but too late to do it in any meaningful way.

Yeah, and it sucks for PC gamers, cos the REAL benefit of RT - using it for global lighting like Metro does - basically needs to be built into the design of the game, and consoles are JUST too weak to be able to do that with really good results. So that's likely to mean that we won't see proper RT games until the PS6 launches god knows when, whereas top end PCs could probably do it now, or at least with the next round of GPUs.

It's all a bit unfortunate. Personally from what I've seen so far I just wish the consoles would forget about it. Forza 5 still looks incredible without it. And on Ratchet, the RT uses about 35-40% of all the GPU power - there's no way that's worth it for some fancy RT reflections.
 

SlimySnake

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The new consoles launched at a really awkward moment in terms of ray-tracing. In time to implement the tech, but too late to do it in any meaningful way.
What? We had several launch games ship with ray tracing. Miles, CoD Cold War, DMC5 remastered were all ready for launch. control and Doom got ray traced reflections later. Ratchet shipped 7 months after launch with full ray traced reflections at native 4k and at 1440p 60 fps. Metro got a full ray traced GI patch. All in the first 8 months after launch.

GT7 will ship 18 months after launch. This is on PD. They are incompetent buffoons. They are a first party studio who shouldve had devkits years before launch. They had 4.5 years of dev time. This is on them.
 

THEAP99

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That's absolutely embarrassing considering the lousy looking visuals and long development time. Not to mention it's $70 and always online.. gonna wait a deep sale on this one.

Sony need to kick their ass
 
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I'm not tech-savvy enough to know what I'm talking about but I suppose the question is whether the issue is PS5 not having enough "RT cores" (a-la Ampere and up GPUs) or whether the on-board GPU is more general purpose, and therefore resources could be diverted to doing ray tracing (albeit while running the overall game at a lower resolution and/or framerate).

I would definitely be up for a 1080p30 ray-tracing enabled mode, but I doubt we'll get one.

Truth is neither PS5 nor the Series systems have dedicated Tensor cores (the RT cores you mention, although they're really just ML-specific silicon, like the Matrix Engines in the upcoming Intel Arc GPUs), so RT has to be done on the "generic" GPU leveraging the TMUs for BVH traversal intersection tests (which are done for calculating and generating RT).

Technically speaking you don't need that specific hardware for RT, RT has been done on CPUs for decades for example. However like you said, the performance cost is readily apparent because there's all kinds of abstractions to be done and whatnot due to the generalized nature of GPGPU compute.

It's similar to CPUs in a sense; you can run code better suited to a DSP or FPGA on a CPU but the CPU's instruction set and architecture aren't tuned for certain types of specialized code, so you take a performance hit, therefore use it sparingly and carefully for that type of code. You'd also want the CPU to be at a minimum hardware spec to cover the overhead (i.e faster clock speed, larger caches, etc.). Emulation on PC for example, you always need more general power compared to the device you're emulating because of differences in architectures and the performance cost emulation naturally incurs.

In a reality where Forza Horizon 5 doesn't Exsist sure.

Crazy some people still think GT7 looks better. Maybe artistically? Even there I think FH5 looks better (but in that case it's more subjective tbh).

Like, I was watching the Kid Smoove podcast (FWIW I watch Sony-centric ones too like Jez) and Jaybari tried starting #DirtGate out of nowhere. Instead he lost a $100 bet live on stream.

You love to see it.

To be honest there is no problem in giving us 3 options:
- 4K with RT in replays, menu etc.
- 1440p with RT everywhere
- 1280-1440p without RT @ 120HZ

Depends on if the engine can support it. If the engine requires too much of a rewrite to implement (or to do without introducing new bugs), then it's not worth implementing. That issue is actually why there's no in-game RT in Forza Horizon 5 for example (and why they are retooling the engine for Fable). IIRC Turn 10's also had to create a new engine (or variation of the old one) to have RT in-game for Forza Motorsport 8.

Kinda suspect Polyphony has the same issue, so they'd need a new engine or engine fork for in-game RT in Gran Turismo 8 (or GT Sport 2, whichever comes first).

Why RT if you can use SSR - your car is always in the middle of the screen = no problems with SSR and it's way faster. It's a good thing.

Yep, have seen several other people state similar. Racing games are one of the few where RT isn't automatically the best option, tho maybe that's moreso for track-based racers. The Forza Horizon games are open-world so the player can drive almost anywhere.

For that type of game, as good as FH5 already looks, in-game RT actually would be pretty useful.

Sound! then if Forza has it i think people can expect it for gt7 at some point , my point is though these consoles aren't 4k raytracing power houses and that will become even more apparent as the gen progress .

Native 4K60 w/RT for the most graphically demanding AAA games was never gonna happen this gen. Thankfully due to stuff like UE5 Lumens, games won't need to rely on "real" RT nearly as much if that stuff didn't exist, and the global illumination with Lumens looks more or less as good as "real" RT.

For me it seems increasingly like the entire Japanese development industry is a backwater.

That's why I just ignore those rumours about Sony creating a new Japanese studio. Why would they? They literally just closed one failing studio over there.

How many actual technically cutting edge games come out of Japan these days? I think Death Stranding is the only one I can think of. Generally they seem to be years behind the best Western developers.

SFV has some of the best animations in the industry, IMHO. And there's not many games doing cel-shading techniques as extensively as GG Strive.

Indeed GT Sport is mind blowing at times, even with the 2d rotating trees, etc. It's my most played game from last gen, well over 500 hours, and I'm still surprised at how real it looks when I'm watching a replay.

No other console racing game really compares imo, maybe other than Driveclub? Forza fans will say the new Horizon game, but it looks cartoony in comparison to GTS.

If you think Forza Horizon looks "cartoony", you clearly haven't played Mario Kart.

FH and GT are both very realistic-looking racers, they just stylize it differently. FH is more film-like with some of its color grading, sometimes I think of Michael Bay when it comes to those.

GT is more like the kind of realism you'd see in a live racing broadcast on Speed Network. Somewhat more muted, Earthly color grading, a bit less on some visual theatrics (but that's also by its nature of being a simulator and not arcade-style).

I am surprised at some of the negative reactions here.First of all GT always looked amazing photo realistic often had always amazing lighting.Ray Tracing in gameplay would be way to taxing.and you couldn’t really Admire it while driving because when you play you concentrate on the road what’s going on there.But for replay it’s perfect replays were always very amazing in GT like clips from real races now with RT will even look more amazing.People should cheer because we are getting an full GT game like in the good old days on ps2.The city view is so amazing all the dealerships Tuning Option.Everything will be absolutely amazing I have no doubt.So instead of being negative about something which isn’t really needed because GT will look outstanding,people should be happy to get a full GT Titel.Can’t wait like in an RPG game to buy a small Daihatsu and build it earn more get better and buy better cars was so much fun.I hate car games which only have super cars and race cars.GT without the old tiny cheap cars is not the same anymore it’s the soul of GT.

The disappointment's not even really due to no RT, but because the game doesn't look all that much better than GT Sport which came out in 2016. Going on six years and almost no big visual improvements. Oh, and they misled about RT in the game (positioning it like RT would be in-game, they even had it in the reveal trailer back in June last year).

I don't think anyone's doubting the game will play well and be quality, GT is generally known for that. Even GT5 turned out pretty well given all the BS that game would pull off (P R E M I U M C A R S !!). But it's okay to be a bit lukewarm on the visuals they showed recently because TBH they were a bit underwhelming.

Nah. Lets not trash an entire country's talent over a studio thats long been in decline. Both DMC5 and RE8 utilize ray tracing. Final Fantasy 7 looked incredible last year, integrate somehow looks even better with the new lighting on PS5.

PD just sucks.

I don't think PD sucks; they might be very slow adapting to certain things and stagnate in a few other areas, but the GT games at least always play well consistently.

Their bigger issue is probably complacency.

To bad FH5 has a 60fps mode that we've seen and still wins😉.

Thanks for reminding P Panajev2001a he must've forgot :LOL:
 

Sosokrates

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Ray traced reflections are obviously better then screen space reflections and cube maps, but I think there are other things which make more difference to overall visual quality. I would rather have more geometry and realtime global illumination.
 

Neo_game

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PD are great in gfx but the problem is they had made poor decision and not sure who's idea was not make the game on PS4. I think PS5 controller is one of the big upgrade here. I am not sure there is going to be much PS4 sales anyways. Spiderman was a good example that most people buying that game are PS5 owners. Comparison videos are going to interesting when the game is released. Forza8 is also expected next year
 
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Hunnybun

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Why? Spiderman looks great, Miles looks great, Rachet and Clank looks great, Res village looks great, doom eternal looks great….btw all run at 60fps 😁👍

Compared to what, though?

On Ratchet and Spiderman you're looking at 35-40% of the GPU just for fucking reflections. I can't imagine other things not looking better - including resolution, actually, which is what I go for.
 

N1tr0sOx1d3

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Compared to what, though?

On Ratchet and Spiderman you're looking at 35-40% of the GPU just for fucking reflections. I can't imagine other things not looking better - including resolution, actually, which is what I go for.
I’ve no idea what the GPU expense is for Raytracing. If you say 40% I’d agree, that does seem really costly. What I can say is that the overall image quality for me is absolutely fine. Those games all look and run great. I don’t have a PC so can’t compare, but I’m happy with what’s being delivered at least for me.
 

HeisenbergFX4

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I bet forza 8 won't have it either and it will be the same. Only in replays etc.
Probably wont but its being designed for new gen only and has said it will have RT but who knows how it will be used and maybe cross gen is what killed RT here.

Wouldnt surprise me in the least if further optimizations would give RT on the PS5 version in a patch
 
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hlm666

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Truth is neither PS5 nor the Series systems have dedicated Tensor cores (the RT cores you mention, although they're really just ML-specific silicon, like the Matrix Engines in the upcoming Intel Arc GPUs), so RT has to be done on the "generic" GPU leveraging the TMUs for BVH traversal intersection tests (which are done for calculating and generating RT).
The tensor cores are for ML and are only used for dlss currently although they were originally for denoising aswell although that hasn't seemed to happen. They have separate RT cores for RT intersection and BVH traversal.
 

skneogaf

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Gran turismo has always been about replays and not actually driving so the folk that love the fight about which car games look the best will be using gt7 replays to attack other games and consoles and be loving it!

I imagine ps6 will have full ray traced games but ps5 just isn't powerful enough.

Which is fine as ps5 games have been the best looking thus far and will likely continue that way.
 

SlimySnake

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Metro Exodus running at dynamic resolution it was possible on these consoles. They can definitely do 1080P 60fps with RT.
Yep.And thats the low end when there is lots going on. XSX is able to do 60 fps at 1800p and PS5 tops out at 1520p 60 fps.

Reflections are far cheaper than full path traced GI. So much so that Insomniac was able to literally double the resolution of ray traced reflections from 1080p to 4kcb (2.1 vs 4.1 million pixels) after just 7 months of optimizations after shipping Miles. If they stick with 1080p reflections they can increase the resolution or other visual effects. A fast game like GT7 probably doesnt need the full 4kcb reflection anyway.

Consoles always have optimizes where devs just figure out how to get more out of a system. Compare Uncharted 4 to TLOU2 and its a gigantic difference in foliage quality and lighting. There was no secret sauce in the 1.8 tflops PS4 GPU other than some extra ACEs that allowed more efficient asnyc compute. Ghost of tshushima looks insane compared to Infamous second son. Ratchet is pushing next gen visuals at a native 4k resolution with 4kcb ray traced reflections. GT7 should be able to do last gen visuals with those ghetto ass environments at 1440p.
 
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Hunnybun

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I’ve no idea what the GPU expense is for Raytracing. If you say 40% I’d agree, that does seem really costly. What I can say is that the overall image quality for me is absolutely fine. Those games all look and run great. I don’t have a PC so can’t compare, but I’m happy with what’s being delivered at least for me.

Based on R&C it's 1440p vs 1800p with RT on and off. So turning off RT seems to get you a 56% increase in resolution.
 
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Keihart

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PS4 pro 2 alright.

But crossgen won't affect PS5 games


Going for native 4K is pure madness, what a joke. Looking forward to the low poly details on the track and the carboard trees.
 
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Inuteu

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They don’t get it for some reason..... it’s always 60fps!!!120fps!!!4k!!!ray-traced reflections!!! (Which they can’t even differentiate from ssr...). These people are holding back gaming...
the reflections in Horizon 4 (no RT) are way better than Watch Dogs legion (RT) IMO

some times low quality RT makes it worst
 

[Sigma]

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I swear, it seems like with every update on the status of this game, it's something negative in a way. Yes, im associating Jim and Hermen with this cuz it's a theme.
 

Ironman_Bad

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To be fair there were sooo many Youtubers and streamers who mentioned how good the 'ray traced reflections' looked on Forza's cars when Horizon 5 was first shown off, and we know it wasnt even RT lol.

If other froms of reflections can fool people, does it really matter if its not RT?.

Nope! 95% of gamers couldn't tell a difference from a non Ray traced reflection and it absolutely kills resources but it gives people something to bitch about 🤷🏿‍♂️
 

Panajev2001a

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Truth is neither PS5 nor the Series systems have dedicated Tensor cores (the RT cores you mention, although they're really just ML-specific silicon, like the Matrix Engines in the upcoming Intel Arc GPUs), so RT has to be done on the "generic" GPU leveraging the TMUs for BVH traversal intersection tests (which are done for calculating and generating RT).

The RT cores and Tensor cores on nVIDIA GPU’s are not the same thing and AMD likely built their own version sitting next to the TMU HW (maybe less performant than the nVIDIA solution, not sure the like for like impact of intersections on texturing rate on each architecture, I think nVIDIA had issues about texturing in parallel to ray intersections in the first generation solution like on XSX and PS5).


Compare it to XSX or PS5 (looks similar): RT intersection HW sitting between Shader ALU’s and Texture Units.


You are right about the tensor cores (ML) being a bit of a big key to this because nVIDIA does not need to waste shader performance denoising the coarse grained ray traced graphics: they have the Tensor Cores for it. This makes better use of the RT HW.

Thanks for reminding P Panajev2001a he must've forgot :LOL:
Sure, sure as if we were comparing apples to apples… let’s see how the car simulation at 60 FPS and likely VR support fares before we sell ifs
 
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22:22

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I'll bet 90% of people posting in this very thread will not purchase GT7, and if they do they'll only play it for a week of 3.

Where is this enthusiasm regarding Gran Turismo besides these pretext console/tech wars?



Sylvester Stallone Facepalm GIF


"Bro I'll buy it because I LOVED GT4 but haven't played since because I dont really care but no ray tracing and cross gen? I'm outraged and blablabla"
 
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DJ Shalad

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At the end of the trailer, and only because other YTs mentioned it, you can see LeMans night with GT3, GT4 cars all at once. mixed races incoming?

In GT Sport on that oval track 38 drivers could race and on normal circuits up to 30 is the max. In the trailer the max. seems to be 10! :/
 

22:22

Doesnt need recognition
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I'll bet 90% of

At the end of the trailer, and only because other YTs mentioned it, you can see LeMans night with GT3, GT4 cars all at once. mixed races incoming?

In GT Sport on that oval track 38 drivers could race and on normal circuits up to 30 is the max. In the trailer the max. seems to be 10! :/

Super GT mentioned as much

Trailer breakdown

 
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22:22

Doesnt need recognition
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At the end of the trailer, and only because other YTs mentioned it, you can see LeMans night with GT3, GT4 cars all at once. mixed races incoming?

In GT Sport on that oval track 38 drivers could race and on normal circuits up to 30 is the max. In the trailer the max. seems to be 10! :/

Btw, do you even play Gran Turismo?

Sincere question
 

DJ Shalad

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Btw, do you even play Gran Turismo?

Sincere question
I´ve mastered, conquered the (NTSC-J) SSR11 chicane, before they patched it out for the PAL release.

GT7 won´t be a GT3, GT4 ..

- the gui is from gtsport
- limit seems to be 10 cars on track (due PS4?)
- a mere 26 tracks (8 USA, 9 EU, 9 JP)
- all tracks from GT Sport, except for 2x new announced
- 1x adria raceway coming
- still no fucking R246!
- most likely it´s based on GT Sport career ... just enhanced (more events), where one has to select a track > pick an event ... when GTMode was never like that. There better be a JP Championship, EU, US, Endurance Races, Sunday Cups, Clubman GTs ... and manufacture race (GT4) as well!
- no drive missions from GT4 ...
- shitty 3D overworld map, where time cycles as well for a stupid reason
- the rain effects driving behind one is weak compared to drive club, even GT5, GT6 have done it better
- where are all the classics tracks?
- 420 cars, 99.99% from GT Sport ... only 50 to 100 used cars?!
 

22:22

Doesnt need recognition
Nov 19, 2020
2,170
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I´ve mastered, conquered the (NTSC-J) SSR11 chicane, before they patched it out for the PAL release.

GT7 won´t be a GT3, GT4 ..

- the gui is from gtsport
- limit seems to be 10 cars on track (due PS4?)
- a mere 26 tracks (8 USA, 9 EU, 9 JP)
- all tracks from GT Sport, except for 2x new announced
- 1x adria raceway coming
- still no fucking R246!
- most likely it´s based on GT Sport career ... just enhanced (more events), where one has to select a track > pick an event ... when GTMode was never like that. There better be a JP Championship, EU, US, Endurance Races, Sunday Cups, Clubman GTs ... and manufacture race (GT4) as well!
- no drive missions from GT4 ...
- shitty 3D overworld map, where time cycles as well for a stupid reason
- the rain effects driving behind one is weak compared to drive club, even GT5, GT6 have done it better
- where are all the classics tracks?
- 420 cars, 99.99% from GT Sport ... only 50 to 100 used cars?!

citizen kane applause GIF


Nice post brother
 

LMJ

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Feb 7, 2019
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I´ve mastered, conquered the (NTSC-J) SSR11 chicane, before they patched it out for the PAL release.

GT7 won´t be a GT3, GT4 ..

- the gui is from gtsport
- limit seems to be 10 cars on track (due PS4?)
- a mere 26 tracks (8 USA, 9 EU, 9 JP)
- all tracks from GT Sport, except for 2x new announced
- 1x adria raceway coming
- still no fucking R246!
- most likely it´s based on GT Sport career ... just enhanced (more events), where one has to select a track > pick an event ... when GTMode was never like that. There better be a JP Championship, EU, US, Endurance Races, Sunday Cups, Clubman GTs ... and manufacture race (GT4) as well!
- no drive missions from GT4 ...
- shitty 3D overworld map, where time cycles as well for a stupid reason
- the rain effects driving behind one is weak compared to drive club, even GT5, GT6 have done it better
- where are all the classics tracks?
- 420 cars, 99.99% from GT Sport ... only 50 to 100 used cars?!

Not a racing fan myself, but this post is the PERFECT example of criticisms by a clear fan who wants better!

So often on all sides I see the "well you dont even like/play the game" anytime criticisms are given...

Difference between hate and criticism!
 

Digity

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Oct 15, 2012
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I´ve mastered, conquered the (NTSC-J) SSR11 chicane, before they patched it out for the PAL release.

GT7 won´t be a GT3, GT4 ..

- the gui is from gtsport
- limit seems to be 10 cars on track (due PS4?)
- a mere 26 tracks (8 USA, 9 EU, 9 JP)
- all tracks from GT Sport, except for 2x new announced
- 1x adria raceway coming
- still no fucking R246!
- most likely it´s based on GT Sport career ... just enhanced (more events), where one has to select a track > pick an event ... when GTMode was never like that. There better be a JP Championship, EU, US, Endurance Races, Sunday Cups, Clubman GTs ... and manufacture race (GT4) as well!
- no drive missions from GT4 ...
- shitty 3D overworld map, where time cycles as well for a stupid reason
- the rain effects driving behind one is weak compared to drive club, even GT5, GT6 have done it better
- where are all the classics tracks?
- 420 cars, 99.99% from GT Sport ... only 50 to 100 used cars?!
Same amount of cars as GTSport.
 
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sn0man

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Nov 23, 2013
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I´ve mastered, conquered the (NTSC-J) SSR11 chicane, before they patched it out for the PAL release.

GT7 won´t be a GT3, GT4 ..

- the gui is from gtsport
- limit seems to be 10 cars on track (due PS4?)
- a mere 26 tracks (8 USA, 9 EU, 9 JP)
- all tracks from GT Sport, except for 2x new announced
- 1x adria raceway coming
- still no fucking R246!
- most likely it´s based on GT Sport career ... just enhanced (more events), where one has to select a track > pick an event ... when GTMode was never like that. There better be a JP Championship, EU, US, Endurance Races, Sunday Cups, Clubman GTs ... and manufacture race (GT4) as well!
- no drive missions from GT4 ...
- shitty 3D overworld map, where time cycles as well for a stupid reason
- the rain effects driving behind one is weak compared to drive club, even GT5, GT6 have done it better
- where are all the classics tracks?
- 420 cars, 99.99% from GT Sport ... only 50 to 100 used cars?!
I suspect that is also why the campaign is online only as they’re just copying the exe from GTS and inserting more content as they go.

oh jeez. What a great big polyphony farce they’re building here. 🤡

(No RT gameplay isn’t even the big issue IMHO, it’s a lack 120fps mode.)
 
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