• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Social Godfall Dev Expects PS5 SSD To Be ‘Biggest Overall Game-Changer’ In Next Few Years

Demon2blades

Member
Jun 14, 2017
462
486
330
United Kingdom
Called it from the start, and was bombed down for it.

It's this gens Kinect.



You guys were fast to find new excuses. Now the inferior pc is the reason why it doesn't happen.

Curse pc and their mechanical HDDs
The Connect never had any benefit it's advertisements was a lie from the start (Milo demo and others) ssd's however have shown their benefit from the start and will continue to do so as the gen progress and engines change to accommodate them properly naturally the faster setup will show more benefits same can be said when new gen pc hardware releases soon ... Theres absolutely no point in mechanical hdd's at this point apart from data storage and cold storage of games .
 

The_Mike

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,012
8,039
650
Denmark
Well the PS5s I/O has already proven itself useful. That's not BS.

If that's the case then it's weird no one really talks about it.

I don't have a ps5 myself, so I can't test it myself for obvious reasons, but in the thread about Jimbo being a good ceo or not, there was an embedded video from a given ps fanboy that tells what's wrong with the system, where he mentions the install times that are slower than on Xbox. The copying part.
 
Mar 27, 2020
12,193
33,638
720
Uncharted bunghole
If that's the case then it's weird no one really talks about it.

I don't have a ps5 myself, so I can't test it myself for obvious reasons, but in the thread about Jimbo being a good ceo or not, there was an embedded video from a given ps fanboy that tells what's wrong with the system, where he mentions the install times that are slower than on Xbox. The copying part.

You mean writing data?

I was talking about reading it. Heck that's really what Cerny focused on in his presentation. And people talk about the PS5s I/O everytime impressive loads are shown in 1st party titles and other games. I remember just recently Digital Foundry talked about it.

Edit: For reference.

 
Last edited:

decisions

Member
Jun 16, 2015
1,344
1,648
600
Do y'all really believe these things that PS5 could be looked at as a failure at the end of this generation

These threads and comments have been mind boggling lately

Sony has been making nothing but baffling decisions since Jim Ryan gained leadership. This generation will likely last 5-7 years, so much can can change it that time. Why would it be ridiculous to assume that Sony will mess this gen up taking all that into account?

Sony has ceded the Japanese market to Nintendo, reduced their Japanese development pipeline which contributes to the increasing homogenization of their first-party games, they have relatively weak BC and Jim Ryan seems to think that BC is worthless, they currently have no answer to Gamepass, the PS5 UI is a strange downgrade from PS4's, PS5 has under 700GB of usable space, devs are having problems with PS5 version of cross-gun games compared to on XSX, there is only one PS5 exclusive when those exclusives are supposedly the lifeblood of the console...

I am a Playstation fan, and there are just as many, if not more reasons to be worried now as there were at the start of the PS3 era.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: AudioSlave92210
Jun 15, 2019
1,811
3,101
435
Yup. Mark Cerny didn't put such an emphasis on I/O, the 12 channel SSD with different priority levels and the geometry engine for nothing.
You're right, he did it for the same reason Sega put so much emphasis on "Blast Processing"...marketing spin, and you apparently swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Just remember, when nothing comes out of this that can't run off a common or garden SATA SSD (and for 99% of games, HDDs), that we tried to tell you.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sep 30, 2019
4,790
9,165
580
Sony has been making nothing but baffling decisions since Jim Ryan gained leadership. This generation will likely last 5-7 years, so much can can change it that time. Why would it be ridiculous to assume that Sony will mess this gen up taking all that into account?

Sony has ceded the Japanese market to Nintendo, reduced their Japanese development pipeline which contributes to the increasing homogenization of their first-party games, they have relatively weak BC and Jim Ryan seems to think that BC is worthless, they currently have no answer to Gamepass, the PS5 UI is a strange downgrade from PS4's, PS5 has under 700GB of usable space, devs are having problems with PS5 version of cross-gun games compared to on XSX, there is only one PS5 exclusive when those exclusives are supposedly the lifeblood of the console...

I am a Playstation fan, and there are just as many, if not more reasons to be worried now as there were at the start of the PS3 era.
That's one way to look at things I guess Lol PS just had one of those most successful console launches of all time during a pandemic, and their 1st party exclusives are getting even more sales and recognition. God of War did 20 million units and Uncharted 4 did over 17 million units. More storage space is coming soon and problems with cross-gen titles isn't a thing. There are a few good PS exclusives on PS5 already and it doesn't matter if they are cross gen they are still new games

You comparing the PS5 to the PS3 is just blasphemy
 
Mar 27, 2020
12,193
33,638
720
Uncharted bunghole
Maybe, who knows. As long as it doesn't require some specific type of custom programing and portability remains easy.

Still, don't go dreaming too much about what an SSD can to. Faster loading is great and can improve the flow of the game, but this isn't exactly new. Games like Ratchet and Miles Morales aren't exactly doing magic either, they're just taking advantage of the speed of a ssd to mask loading times in ingenious manners (purple portals or long pipes), kinda like elevator rides with conversations.

I actually was thinking more about streaming assets on the fly. Which is what Bluepoint talked about in their interview with John Lineman from Digtal Foundry.


Basically connects to what Cerny said about this.


So when I talked about the dream of an SSD part of the reason for that 5 gigabytes a second target was to eliminate loads, but also part of the reason for that target was streaming as in what if the SSD is so fast that as the player is turning around. It's possible to load textures for everything behind the player in that split second.

Bluepoint says a lot of interesting things about the I/O and I recommend watching the entire portion on it. It's very enlightening.

Not saying other platforms can't do this but it's one of the benefits of having a fast I/O.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sep 30, 2019
4,790
9,165
580
You're right, he did it for the same reason Sega put so much emphasis on "Blast Processing"...marketing spin, and you apparently swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Just remember, when nothing comes out of this that can't run off a common or garden SATA SSD (and for 99% of games, HDDs), that we tried to tell you
😂 I'll trust Playstation's words and track records of producing some of the greatest visual spectacles in gaming and 3rd party devs over y'all, comment engineers 🤣
 
Last edited:

WildBoy

Member
Jun 13, 2019
237
266
265
Quick resume is so handy. But I wish Skyrim would stay at 60fps boost mode when I resume after a few days... That shit needs fixing. But when it works damn it's like magic. Meanwhile those ever helpful cards on PS5 don't help when your playing it takes two and your mate presses Sqaure to resume and if restarts that entire chapter... They definitely didn't think that one through... Best thing about PS5 is Share Screen! All of us in party watching someone fight a souls boss is pretty special.
 

ClosBSAS

Member
Dec 2, 2018
357
484
305
lol its just a fucking hard drive...ffs. finally catching up. by the time this shit becomes useful there will be faster shit out there.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Apr 12, 2020
3,805
6,869
680
I actually was thinking more about streaming assets on the fly. Which is what Bluepoint talked about in their interview with John Lineman from Digtal Foundry.


Basically connects to what Cerny said about this.

Streaming assets has been a thing since GTA 3. Difference now with a SSD is that you could potentially use higher quality ones, aka it all comes down to better visuals anyway (though you'll still be limited by the GPU).

As i said, don't get your hopes too up. Seamless open worlds have existed for more than 20 years, including ones where you can travel at high speeds or even teleport from one side of the map to the other without going through a loading screen.
 
Last edited:

VFXVeteran

Professional Victim (Vetted)
Nov 5, 2019
5,460
12,408
805
Stuff like this really makes me look forward to the UE5 demo releasing later this year, so all this PR can be put to rest.
Yea, this has got to be the most hyped feature of any generation I've been in. It's not enough to be able to stream in Gb/s of data in a game. Everyone that's been interviewed assumes that all that data will be free to render and our games will just magically look significantly better and run the exact same as it does today as if all of these "last-gen" games can be rendered now at 60FPS @ 4k and the consoles are shitting on the processing of these latest games. If the new consoles are powerful enough to handle a significantly larger jump in triangles and texture resolutions, then we would see consistently high FPS/resolutions in the games that don't even use that tech. Yet, all we see in DF videos are consoles barely able to maintain 1440p with dynamic resolution.

It's like saying you can take all the geometry that makes up Godzilla from the latest movie (incredible movie btw) and render it on the new consoles because the SSD is fast enough to stream the exact same amount of triangles WITHOUT considering the speed with which those triangles will be rendered with shaders, lights, etc.. The performance ceiling is going to be how fast it can process shaders and the lighting pipeline along with those added triangles/textures - not the speed of the SSD. I predict we'll see high poly worlds but with simple shaders, small scope and no RT with continued use of DRS.
 

FrankWza

Member
Feb 14, 2013
4,474
4,370
725
Sure is a lot of Xbox fans in a PS5 thread.
It’s the same bunch that read SSD and talk load times like it’s 10 or 12 years ago. But then again, those same posters think Sony had the MLB license and don’t realize Microsoft could have made an MLB game anytime they wanted. If they were capable of actually doing it of course.
You got to love the amount of people that more than a year into this discussion still do not understand the difference between load time of a large executable and the possibility to use the SSD as a slow VRAM pool for texture streaming. The first point is a nice to have convenience factor while the second is game changing if used to its potential in how games can be made to look.
Exactly
If that's the case then it's weird no one really talks about it.
This is what anyone who references the PS5 SSD is talking about. It’s people like you who try to make it about load times. SSD load times have made console games load faster for over ten years on both PS3 and PS4. It’s a given already. The PS5 SSD and I/O does that and then some.
 
Last edited:
Aug 25, 2020
150
320
305
 

The Pleasure

Member
Jan 8, 2019
4,078
5,608
545
Sony has been making nothing but baffling decisions since Jim Ryan gained leadership. This generation will likely last 5-7 years, so much can can change it that time. Why would it be ridiculous to assume that Sony will mess this gen up taking all that into account?

Sony has ceded the Japanese market to Nintendo, reduced their Japanese development pipeline which contributes to the increasing homogenization of their first-party games, they have relatively weak BC and Jim Ryan seems to think that BC is worthless, they currently have no answer to Gamepass, the PS5 UI is a strange downgrade from PS4's, PS5 has under 700GB of usable space, devs are having problems with PS5 version of cross-gun games compared to on XSX, there is only one PS5 exclusive when those exclusives are supposedly the lifeblood of the console...

I am a Playstation fan, and there are just as many, if not more reasons to be worried now as there were at the start of the PS3 era.
I want a cross-gun that shoots both gamepass voosters and smash bros players at the same time.
 

Dr Bass

Gold Member
Jun 6, 2013
1,354
4,037
920
The first game leveraging this is Demon's souls. It's the best looking next gen game and I predict no game on Xbox Series X will look like this during the whole generation.

I am talking specifically about density of world: polygons and textures.

Demon's Souls is the best looking console game I've yet to see, truly amazing in areas.

But, come on now. :rolleyes:
 

Inviusx

Member
Jan 4, 2016
1,851
1,928
540
Yeah maybe but with games taking so long to develop and costing 200 million + for AAA we will probably see like 4 games this generation actually push the system to its limit.

Everything else will just be cross platform.
 

93xfan

Member
Feb 23, 2013
3,069
2,082
765
“Speaking in the latest issue of Official PlayStation Magazine UK, Lee commented”


Doesn’t sound like he is saying the series x cannot do the same. He’s talking about PlayStation because it’s an interview by a PlayStation publication
 
Last edited:

MonarchJT

Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,121
2,903
330
You got to love the amount of people that more than a year into this discussion still do not understand the difference between load time of a large executable and the possibility to use the SSD as a slow VRAM pool for texture streaming. The first point is a nice to have convenience factor while the second is game changing if used to its potential in how games can be made to look.
you are not describing nothing incredibly new or revolutionary. Having a faster SSD that is still dozens and dozens and dozens of times slower than RAM. It certainly helps the system but let's stop with "game changer" or "a new era" bs, sure there will be shorter hidden loading times, if you want MUCH shorter but they will always be there and the demonstration is exactly in rachet and clank The "tunnel" serves to hide the loading time which unfortunately still exists. And since it takes loading time to empty and fill the ram completely and then to allow the gpu to render just like.rachet&c. , well we go back to the old concept of the ability of developers to know how to hide loadings which can be done on any machine from PC to Xbox. The thing is whether the ps5 concept would have been to completely change from one full load situation to another then it would have been so fast that there would have been a distinct difference between the competition (and it seems that in full load situations it cannot) , the fact of having seen the rachet tunnel suggests that on another machine it would be enough to stay in the tunnel for 1 or 2 seconds more to get the same result practically leaving the gaming experience intact.
 
Last edited:

MonarchJT

Member
Sep 25, 2020
2,121
2,903
330
What you seem to overlook is that it was Cerny himself who thought concentrating development resources on the SSD an I/O was a good approach vs a slightly more performant GPU.

It's not like the PS5 design just dropped into his lap fully formed, and he then had to choose some kind of shrewd PR line on what to talk up.

The reason he talked up the SSD is presumably the same reason it existed in the first place.
You think? im not so sure. But we will never know
 

DenchDeckard

Member
Feb 28, 2021
937
1,534
310
You mean writing data?

I was talking about reading it. Heck that's really what Cerny focused on in his presentation. And people talk about the PS5s I/O everytime impressive loads are shown in 1st party titles and other games. I remember just recently Digital Foundry talked about it.

Edit: For reference.

To be fair, Cerny literally said we wouldn’t have the shit copying thing anymore yet here it is. So there is evidence of him bending the truth in that video.

So, he did expect the ps5 ssd to be better at writing data too.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Nov 25, 2015
14,646
24,776
1,200
To be fair, Cerny literally said we wouldn’t have the shit copying thing anymore yet here it is. So there is evidence of him bending the truth in that video.

So, he did expect the ps5 ssd to be better at writing data too.
It’s coded into last gen games.
 

DenchDeckard

Member
Feb 28, 2021
937
1,534
310
It’s coded into last gen games.

Demons souls did the copying thing. I remember being sat waiting to play and thinking “holy shit this download fast”

I think it grabbed the patch in like 3 or so minutes, then it did 20 minutes of copying, completely pissed me off.
 

3liteDragon

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,804
11,558
655
PS5 is 5.5gb.
That’s when the data is uncompressed, no developer leaves game files uncompressed. When the data is compressed, it’s 8-9GB/s with the dedicated Kraken decompressor hardware on PS5 capable of outputting as much as 22GB/s.

Sony purchased licenses for their SDKs that developers use, from RAD Game Tools which compress the files and textures even further (through a higher compression ratio), increasing the read speed even more. Right now, a 17.38GB/s read speed is achievable on PS5 thanks to RAD’s Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture.


A blog post from RAD Game Tools themselves:
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,806
12,371
2,110
PS5 is 5.5gb.
It remains to be seen how many games stream zlib or kraken compressed data and decode it in software on PC (which on PS5 it actually props PS5’s effective speed in the 8-9+ GB/s range, without taking into account for Oodle Texture compression).

Also, the overhead (until at least Direct Storage lands and brings it down a few notches) to transfer data (key in streaming on demand data/random accesses of small to moderate sized files) is an area where the PS5 is still very likely (XSX too) to hold an advantage and then you have 3x the number of priority levels for better on demand data access due to an in-game event (2 —> 6). Then again on PC’s you can stuff with more than double the main RAM and have dedicated VRAM on top, but that is not $399 PC’s material.
 
Last edited:

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
633
775
375
That’s when the data is uncompressed, no developer leaves game files uncompressed. When the data is compressed, it’s 8-9GB/s with the Kraken decompressor capable of outputting as much as 22GB/s.

Sony purchased licenses for their SDKs that developers use, from RAD Game Tools which compress the files and textures even further (through a higher compression ratio), increasing the read speed even more. Right now, a 17.38GB/s read speed is achievable on PS5 thanks to RAD’s Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture.


A blog post from RAD Game Tools themselves:
If Sony had a game that required that much data to be streamed regularly, would it even fit on their 600gb hard drive? Not if you still have to copy game installs.
It remains to be seen how many games stream zlib or kraken compressed data and decode it in software on PC (which on PS5 it actually props PS5’s effective speed in the 8-9+ GB/s range, without taking into account for Oodle Texture compression).

Also, the overhead (until at least Direct Storage lands and brings it down a few notches) to transfer data (key in streaming on demand data/random accesses of small to moderate sized files) is an area where the PS5 is still very likely (XSX too) to hold an advantage and then you have 3x the number of priority levels for better on demand data access due to an in-game event (2 —> 6). Then again on PC’s you can stuff with more than double the main RAM and have dedicated VRAM on top, but that is not $399 PC’s material.
Point is, PC isn't "holding ps5 back". Especially not when the PS5 has a low end (by 2021 standards) GPU.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,806
12,371
2,110
To be fair, Cerny literally said we wouldn’t have the shit copying thing anymore yet here it is. So there is evidence of him bending the truth in that video.

So, he did expect the ps5 ssd to be better at writing data too.
He said he did. It expect it to be needed, some games do not appear to have it, but some developers still struggle with it. If it can be removed for some games it can be removed for all in the future. We still have a pattern of underselling more than overselling taking the entire PS5 architecture overview and hype and what it delivers (imagine their competition not advertising controller latency improvements despite delivering them, advertising almost half of the effective SSD speed ignoring the boost provided by the Oodle Texture library they bought for all the PS4 and PS5 devs, etc…).
 

Eliciel

Member
Oct 30, 2009
1,718
869
1,095
Yup. Mark Cerny didn't put such an emphasis on I/O, the 12 channel SSD with different priority levels and the geometry engine for nothing. PS5 exclusives are going to look amazing once the SSD frees up ram for denser textures and other things 🔥

It would have been so great having a 2nd in-depth session with Cerny...better than even playing an actual game ok the console.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hobbygaming
Jan 3, 2021
226
348
240
If Sony had a game that required that much data to be streamed regularly, would it even fit on their 600gb hard drive? Not if you still have to copy game installs.

Point is, PC isn't "holding ps5 back". Especially not when the PS5 has a low end (by 2021 standards) GPU.
lol, a gtx 770 was 2 times faster than a ps4

guess what happened with rdr2? ps4 run it MILES better.

what is 2 times faster than ps5? maybe rtx 3090.

in 4 years later, you may see a ps5 perform equal to a 3080/3090 in an aaa game. if you don't believe me, you can check out how horrible gtx 780 runs the horizon zero dawn, supposedly 3-4 times faster than a ps4


at ps4 settings (medium) and resolution, it can't even lock to 30 frames. crazy, huh? talk about the high end.

ps5 gpu will outpace any gpus that is released in 2021, simple as that. you will need at least 1.5-2 times more the performance of a ps5 to catch up with it in terms of performance, in FUTURE.

this ps4 was practically a competitor to 750ti, when it WAS released.


things change. ps5 seems like equivalent to a rtx 2070/2070s today, but it will change. it always change. consoles always have superior optimization, and this time unlike ps4, ps5 actually has a respectable gpu, unlike the 750ti equivalent ps4 which managed to outpace a 770 easily
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
633
775
375
lol, a gtx 770 was 2 times faster than a ps4

guess what happened with rdr2? ps4 run it MILES better.

what is 2 times faster than ps5? maybe rtx 3090.

in 4 years later, you may see a ps5 perform equal to a 3080/3090 in an aaa game. if you don't believe me, you can check out how horrible gtx 780 runs the horizon zero dawn, supposedly 3-4 times faster than a ps4


at ps4 settings (medium) and resolution, it can't even lock to 30 frames. crazy, huh? talk about the high end.

ps5 gpu will outpace any gpus that is released in 2021, simple as that. you will need at least 1.5-2 times more the performance of a ps5 to catch up with it in terms of performance, in FUTURE.

this ps4 was practically a competitor to 750ti, when it WAS released.


things change. ps5 seems like equivalent to a rtx 2070/2070s today, but it will change. it always change. consoles always have superior optimization, and this time unlike ps4, ps5 actually has a respectable gpu, unlike the 750ti equivalent ps4 which managed to outpace a 770 easily
The HZD port is notoriously bad, but I think they've fixed it now.

I guess we'll find out when more of Sony's first party games come to pc. :)
 
  • Fire
Reactions: DonJuanSchlong

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,806
12,371
2,110
If Sony had a game that required that much data to be streamed regularly, would it even fit on their 600gb hard drive?
Yes, if you are limited by a relatively small fixed memory pool (RAM) you are going to stream the same chunks of data more than once (stream, use, unload, stream again) during the entire game playback as you try to keep as much RAM available for current scene data only instead of prefetching data you do not need yet far in advance.
It is also not just the speed, but the low latency of random data accessed that will make the difference.

Point is, PC isn't "holding ps5 back". Especially not when the PS5 has a low end (by 2021 standards) GPU.
PC is a useless moniker as there is not A PC that everyone buys with the same specs. You will find plenty of people on HW that offers far less performance and does not have access to similar API’s as the consoles do making them even further apart.
The GPU alone, paper specs of different environment do not tend to compare that accurately, is hardly low end (there is this warped view where 90% of PC users are supposedly on a Ryzen 3 with an RTX2060++ and a fast SSD and 32 GB of RAM) but also one of the many components of the machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3liteDragon

3liteDragon

Member
Mar 3, 2020
1,804
11,558
655
If Sony had a game that required that much data to be streamed regularly, would it even fit on their 600gb hard drive? Not if you still have to copy game installs.
Yes because that’s the whole point of compressing your game files, we’re already seeing it with third-party games like RE8 and Control with the file size for the PS5 version reduced by quite a decent amount, so it’s a good indication that third-parties are already putting these compression tools to good use this early into the gen.
 
Last edited:

Dream-Knife

Member
Feb 22, 2021
633
775
375
Yes, if you are limited by a relatively small fixed memory pool (RAM) you are going to stream the same chunks of data more than once (stream, use, unload, stream again) during the entire game playback as you try to keep as much RAM available for current scene data only instead of prefetching data you do not need yet far in advance.
It is also not just the speed, but the low latency of random data accessed that will make the difference.


PC is a useless moniker as there is not A PC that everyone buys with the same specs. You will find plenty of people on HW that offers far less performance and does not have access to similar API’s as the consoles do making them even further apart.
The GPU alone, paper specs of different environment do not tend to compare that accurately, is hardly low end (there is this warped view where 90% of PC users are supposedly on a Ryzen 3 with an RTX2060++ and a fast SSD and 32 GB of RAM) but also one of the many components of the machine.
Anyone interested in AAA gaming on PC, or high FPS will be there or above. Yes most PC gamers do not, but how many of them play indies, fortnite, etc? They don't care about playing AAA games on ultra. Build the machine for what you want to do.
 
Jan 3, 2021
226
348
240
The HZD port is notoriously bad, but I think they've fixed it now.

I guess we'll find out when more of Sony's first party games come to pc. :)

is rdr2 port bad?


how about odyssey?

this is a gpu supposed to be 2 times faster than a ps4

between 2013-2016, you may observe 770 performing above ps4, usually 1.5x-2x more times performance, as it should. i also observed tons of "pc master race" comments where the 770 was hailed like a champion against ps4, claiming how superior it was to ps4 and how ps4 was inferior to it.

in the long game, ps4 played nextgen games such as ac odyssey, rdr 2, metro exodus, doom eternal MUCH better.


ps4 practically runs this game with a locked cap of 60 fps, while 7700 is having hard time, bouncing between 35-50 fps.