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[IFireflyl]

Even as a PC gamer, you still need to thank console generations for keeping gaming moving constantly forward.

Not really. Consoles are actually worse for PC games. Games get made for consoles and then ported to PC. The optimization is generally worse for PC gamers than console gamers. If the games were developed for PC in the first place PC gamers would be a whole lot better off.

Without consoles, what exactly would be the minimum spec developers would be aiming for? 10 year old systems? Integrated graphics? The weakest GPU's currently on sale? What drive would there be as such, for most people to upgrade their specs? Consoles keep the baseline moving, and with it the upper ceiling for what high end PC games can realistically and easily afford to add as nice extras.

Your entire argument hinges upon the assumption that if consoles didn't exist companies like NVIDIA wouldn't want to improve their GPUs so they could sell more hardware. That's absolutely ridiculous. Competition drives progress, sure. But we don't need consoles for that - just more companies developing PC hardware. But even without competition there would still be improvements over time. If there weren't the hardware companies would go out of business.

 

[LittleBusters]

Revenge is a dish best served cold. It is very cold in space....

 

[quest]

Sony's perspective is the same perspective that Nintendo uses too. So who do you trust more in the console space? Sony and Nintendo........or Microsoft?

Considering Nintendo does not even have a home console i don't trust them lol. Mobile gaming interests me as much as a root canal.


If Sony truly believes in generations then they should put their money were thier mouth is and not certify any cross generation game. You believe in generations prove it or it is just pr like Microsoft.

 

[DarkMage619]

Phil Spencer isn't going to talk about cross gen holding anything back when he's the one who is an advocate for it. It's sad that you're calling it a "meme" just because he is despite us seeing the negative effects of cross gen development and hearing from developers who would rather not have to worry about the older consoles.

He's talking about leaving people behind in the article above, not games.

If you want to talk about backwards compatibility we can do so in an appropriate thread, it's not like the topic hasn't come up in the last couple of days.

Name the development studios and games being 'held back'. It is not a meme because Phil Spencer said it is. It is a meme because it is. it isn't serious at all. There are 5 or fewer titles that are still being developed by MGS for the X1. That isn't holding anything back. It is only amplified by MS's detractors. The funny thing is that if you are buying a PS5 and don't like the Xbox why do you even CARE what MS is doing? Shouldn't you be more focused on what the PS5 teardowns and tech analysis is? Don't you what to know how many and which ports are on the back of the machine or how you will expand the storage? I have not seen ONE PS5 system hands on. Xbox should be the furthest thing from your mind.

 

[NullZ3r0]

People tend to think of backwards compatibility as newer systems being compatible with older games. That's the end of it. It doesn't matter if the game is "new to you" or not. If you didn't play a game for 10 years you don't have a right to get mad at Sony because their newest console doesn't support playing that game which was developed for an entirely different console. Buy a retro-console and enjoy the game, or move on.

My post was more a response to the "who wants to play old games?" crowd.

But keep loving that Sony balls sweat.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I don't understand why so many American video game podcaster don't understand the bolded in this post. Gamers have spoken with their wallets and Nintendo and Sony have been benefitting in a BIG way due to that.

You know what's funny? People were constantly complaining that the 360/PS3 generation went on too long.

 

[Clear]

One has nothing to do with the other. Ceasing a model in production doesn't make your current game library disappear.

Due to Xbox One BC with 360, I got to play Fable 3 and Gears 2 & 3 for the first time. I have a huge backlog of Xbox One games that I need to play but never had the time.

People tend to think of BC as replaying old games when it's not always the case. It's often times a chance to play old games for the first time. And with Series X, some of those games will have improved graphics.

Its got everything to do with it! This isn't about backwards compatibility its about support going forwards and will you need a new gen of hardware to enjoy it.

MS are only trying to make a selling point out of it because they are transitioning to a primarily service-based business model for Xbox.

 

[DarkMage619]

Its got everything to do with it! This isn't about backwards compatibility its about support going forwards and will you need a new gen of hardware to enjoy it.

MS are only trying to make a selling point out of it because they are transitioning to a primarily service-based business model for Xbox.

Did MS not produce a next gen console? They can support past generations and next generation with no problem. I'd like to see more of their next gen software but there is no doubt it's coming. People are just looking for an issue where there isn't one.

 

[Journey]

The superior version will always be PC and not many will buy an XSX for slightly better multiplatform games. MS has to bring the exclusives. Avowed, Everwild and Fable is a start

The best is PC, but only when you have a PC that's capable of outperforming the upcoming consoles. Its like comparing an 80" OLED TV with Dolby Atmos hometheater system vs another comparable but less capable system and then trying to discredit the better one by saying that the best experience will be at the movie theater, well sometimes people rather experience things as best they can in a different format, and when it comes to consoles, XSX simply has more horsepower. Yes they need to bring in their exclusive content as well, but now we're going into the territory of sales and not performance.

 

[Hobbygaming]

The best is PC, but only when you have a PC that's capable of outperforming the upcoming consoles. Its like comparing an 80" OLED TV with Dolby Atmos hometheater system vs another comparable but less capable system and then trying to discredit the better one by saying that the best experience will be at the movie theater, well sometimes people rather experience things as best they can in a different format, and when it comes to consoles, XSX simply has more horsepower. Yes they need to bring in their exclusive content as well, but now we're going into the territory of sales and not performance.

I think we'll see that the difference is pretty minuscule and I'm basing this on a few different factors

 

[IFireflyl]

My post was more a response to the "who wants to play old games?" crowd.

But keep loving that Sony balls sweat.

If you read into this that I'm a Sony fanboy, that's on you. I'll buy both consoles, as I did with the PS4 and Xbox One, just to make Microsoft and Sony lose some money on their hardware. I have no intention of using either console, nor will I sell them or give them away. I'm a jerk like that.

I'm just not such a child that I thought, "Hey, I should be able to play this Gamecube game on the Nintendo Switch! WHERE IS MY BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY!"

 

[PerfectDark]

If I have a game like Torchlight 2 on ps4 and xbox one I should be able to play it on Ps5 or series x. You should not be able to play the new Rachet and Clank or Halo made for Ps5 and series X on a ps4 or xbox one.

This is just as stupid as stupid gets. And this ruins gaming.

As a PC gamer this is what has ruined PC gaming forever. Consoles have always held back PC's. They don't make games that push PC hardware. They make games on console and you can only get more fps, resolution or some other improved settings on PC. In the early 2000s devs made game for PC only and the last 10 years that has stopped.

 

[GHG]

Name the development studios and games being 'held back'. It is not a meme because Phil Spencer said it is. It is a meme because it is. it isn't serious at all. There are 5 or fewer titles that are still being developed by MGS for the X1. That isn't holding anything back. It is only amplified by MS's detractors. The funny thing is that if you are buying a PS5 and don't like the Xbox why do you even CARE what MS is doing? Shouldn't you be more focused on what the PS5 teardowns and tech analysis is? Don't you what to know how many and which ports are on the back of the machine or how you will expand the storage? I have not seen ONE PS5 system hands on. Xbox should be the furthest thing from your mind.

Just because cross gen makes memes it doesn't mean it's a meme itself. The pitfalls of cross gen development are very real.

I've already explained my stance on why this whole "cross gen is good" nonsense doesn't sit well with me, both in this thread and elsewhere. Believe it or not but I play their games and I want them to produce high quality games that I can actually enjoy. Games like flight sim will get played a lot by me and I will give high praise when it is warranted (incidentally that's a game that clearly gives no fucks about last gen hardware, good luck playing that on an Xbox One without xcloud). We want to see things advance and move forward in a big way, not stagnate. On the whole, console stagnation = PC stagnation. There's a reason Nvidia just announced RTX IO.

Developing with better hardware in mind inevitably means some people will be left behind until they can upgrade, it's normal. The only people who don't see it as normal are Phil Spencer and his brain dead disciples who clearly have no ability to think for themselves (hence you see his words being parroted without any rational thought as to whether they are relevant or accurate on forums like this). The only time cross gen development is beneficial is if you are a 3rd party AAA publisher looking at the financials at the start of a generation - it's something they need to be concerned about because selling as many games as possible is the only way they can make money. The publishers who make these consoles don't have the same concern and it sends a negative message to say they don't care whether people buy the new console or not and that they don't care whether developers develop for the new console or not.

And the bolded text... here you go again wanting to talk about stuff that is completely unrelated to the topic. I don't even know why I waste my time engaging with you lunatics, you clearly don't want to have an honest discussion about this topic. Stick to spamming laughing emojis, nothing of value will be lost.

 

[Ascend]

Sony's perspective is the same perspective that Nintendo uses too. So who do you trust more in the console space? Sony and Nintendo........or Microsoft?

I know it's what Nintendo uses too. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily better, nor more reliable. That would be like arguing that you trust Walmart and Target more than Amazon. They are targeting practically the same customers, but offering the service in vastly different ways.

Besides, who knows where we would be today with online gaming if it wasn't for Xbox Live. And I primarily prefer single player games. But the value that Xbox Live has provided for online gaming cannot be dismissed by any objective observer. So the idea that Microsoft's business model cannot be trusted, to me, is ludicrous. They have added value, and they continue to do so. It's perfectly fine to not like what they are doing. It's not fine to say they (or their business model) cannot be trusted. They're still around and there is no indication that Xbox will cease to exist. And enough people like what they are doing.

And it's understandable from Microsoft's perspective as well. Nintendo and Sony have both been around longer. Why try to beat them at their own game? They are trying to change the rules of the game. It's what they did with Xbox Live. And it's what they're doing now with the subscription model.

 

[DarkMage619]

Just because cross gen makes memes it doesn't mean it's a meme itself. The pitfalls of cross gen development are very real.

I've already explained my stance on why this whole "cross gen is good" nonsense doesn't sit well with me, both in this thread and elsewhere. Believe it or not but I play their games and I want them to produce high quality games that I can actually enjoy. Games like flight sim will get played a lot by me and I will give high praise when it is warranted (incidentally that's a game that clearly gives no fucks about last gen hardware, good luck playing that on an Xbox One without xcloud). We want to see things advance and move forward in a big way, not stagnate. On the whole, console stagnation = PC stagnation. There's a reason Nvidia just announced RTX IO.

Developing with better hardware in mind inevitably means some people will be left behind until they can upgrade, it's normal. The only people who don't see it as normal are Phil Spencer and his brain dead disciples who clearly have no ability to think for themselves (hence you see his words being parroted without any rational thought as to whether they are relevant or accurate on forums like this). The only time cross gen development is beneficial is if you are a 3rd party AAA publisher looking at the financials at the start of a generation - it's something they need to be concerned about because selling as many games as possible is the only way they can make money. The publishers who make these consoles don't have the same concern and it sends a negative message to say they don't care whether people buy the new console or not and that they don't care whether developers develop for the new console or not.

And the bolded text... here you go again wanting to talk about stuff that is completely unrelated to the topic. I don't even know why I waste my time engaging with you lunatics, you clearly don't want to have an honest discussion about this topic. Stick to spamming laughing emojis, nothing of value will be lost.

I hope you kept that same energy when all those 'Craig' pics were posted. Cross gen happens EVERY generation since the PS1. Did you rail against Sony then? Your whole point about MSFS2020 flies directly in the face of MS is holding next gen back. They have support for new and old hardware. MS is taking steps to give Xbox gamers of all stripes options to play games past and present. That is not a bad thing no matter how many 'Craig' pics are posted. Finally Phil Spencer NEVER said he didn't care if people bought the console or not he said they didn't have to sell as many as Sony and Nintendo to be successful and you weren't being forced to buy new hardware right away. Horrible, horrible guy that Phil is.

 

[Vawn]

But keep loving that Sony balls sweat.

I see we are still doing this. Stay classy.

 

[Vawn]

If I have a game like Torchlight 2 on ps4 and xbox one I should be able to play it on Ps5 or series x. You should not be able to play the new Rachet and Clank or Halo made for Ps5 and series X on a ps4 or xbox one.

This is just as stupid as stupid gets. And this ruins gaming.

As a PC gamer this is what has ruined PC gaming forever. Consoles have always held back PC's. They don't make games that push PC hardware. They make games on console and you can only get more fps, resolution or some other improved settings on PC. In the early 2000s devs made game for PC only and the last 10 years that has stopped.

Which is why Series S is such a concern, even after developers move on from Xbox One/PS4.

 

[GHG]

I hope you kept that same energy when all those 'Craig' pics were posted. Cross gen happens EVERY generation since the PS1. Did you rail against Sony then? Your whole point about MSFS2020 flies directly in the face of MS is holding next gen back. They have support for new and old hardware. MS is taking steps to give Xbox gamers of all stripes options to play games past and present. That is not a bad thing no matter how many 'Craig' pics are posted. Finally Phil Spencer NEVER said he didn't care if people bought the console or not he said they didn't have to sell as many as Sony and Nintendo to be successful and you weren't being forced to buy new hardware right away. Horrible, horrible guy that Phil is.

Sony are not advocating for cross gen, they never have and they actually encourage (and incentivise in some cases) developers to move on to new hardware. This is the first time we have ever had a console manufacturer talking nonsense about generations not being a positive thing.

Yes Flight sim 2020 still runs (but sub-optimally) on older hardware. Older PC hardware that is still stronger than the baseline last gen consoles in multiple ways that you clearly can't comprehend. There's a reason you needed 32gb ram and a modern 6+ core CPU to be accepted into the alpha for the game last year. The game was primarily built with modern systems in mind and it shows. People are upgrading their PC's for the game, new systems are being built and the new Nvidia cards will fly off the shelves.

Hopefully we can get more games like that. It's called progress and it's what most people want to see. If Halo looked like that no memes would have been made and there would currently be a lot more excitement and buzz around the Series X.

But apparently having buzz and people lining up to buy the new console over the alternatives is not important:

How many consoles do I sell versus how many consoles does another company sell' - Sony or Nintendo or other companies back in the day - we're just not...that's not our approach

Microsoft Kinda Doesn't Care If You Buy An Xbox Series X

Xbox's strategy relies on services and subscriptions across multiple devices, Xbox Series X is just another means to get you there.

www.gamespot.com

Speaking of memes... Yes I will post Craig memes where appropriate. There seems to be one for every situation and when appropriate it can be funny. Sorry if the memes upset you, you should try laughing instead.

 

[Drewpee]

They want to turn Xbox into Office 365.
Gaming as a service.
Thats been evident for a while now.

As an Xbox gamer I'm not against this and it is a natural evolution of the gaming division under Microsoft. The big issue will be delivering a quality experience across the board. I think Halo Infinite on Xbox One is a great idea, but not if it holds back the XsX version. That is the real problem Microsoft will need to navigate as they move further into their games as a service model.

Halo Infinite was not a good first impression for their vision. It proved to me that XsX will be held back by previous generations unless Microsoft figures out a solution.

 

[Barakov]

Well.....they believe in two generations. Seems weird that we're getting this talking point. AGAIN.

 

[theclaw135]

Planned obsolescence is bad for gaming. They don't have to be the biggest, hottest releases, but companies should keep making games for a system until people stop buying them.

 

[Clear]

Did MS not produce a next gen console? They can support past generations and next generation with no problem. I'd like to see more of their next gen software but there is no doubt it's coming. People are just looking for an issue where there isn't one.

Yes they did, but the point is that they are de-emphasizing the significance of this going forwards in order to shift GamePass subs.
The difference is that despite all the ballyhoo about Series X being "the worlds most powerful console", Sony are the ones far more committed to actually utilizing the advantages gained from new technology! To MS its just an option, whereas for Sony its the reason for the PS5.

 

[mckmas8808]

I know it's what Nintendo uses too. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily better, nor more reliable. That would be like arguing that you trust Walmart and Target more than Amazon. They are targeting practically the same customers, but offering the service in vastly different ways.

Besides, who knows where we would be today with online gaming if it wasn't for Xbox Live. And I primarily prefer single player games. But the value that Xbox Live has provided for online gaming cannot be dismissed by any objective observer. So the idea that Microsoft's business model cannot be trusted, to me, is ludicrous. They have added value, and they continue to do so. It's perfectly fine to not like what they are doing. It's not fine to say they (or their business model) cannot be trusted. They're still around and there is no indication that Xbox will cease to exist. And enough people like what they are doing.

And it's understandable from Microsoft's perspective as well. Nintendo and Sony have both been around longer. Why try to beat them at their own game? They are trying to change the rules of the game. It's what they did with Xbox Live. And it's what they're doing now with the subscription model.

In your example, Amazon proved a business model that both the business world and customers liked. We are still waiting on MS to prove that their vision is similar. Until then, I'm beating my money on Walmart and Target, because it's proven.

 

[aries_71]

Pretty cringeworthy, the whole topic...

 

[Grinchy]

Planned obsolescence is bad for gaming. They don't have to be the biggest, hottest releases, but companies should keep making games for a system until people stop buying them.

But what's funny about this is I'm willing to bet that the PS4 will continue to have more releases on it for the next couple years than the Xbox One, despite Microsoft pretending they don't believe in generations and want to leave no Xbox gamer behind.

So if Sony was in a desperate position, they could have been the ones crafting that PR nonsense instead. But they don't need to. They are launching a new generation while letting more releases for their previous generation trickle in just like every generation before this. Microsoft is so behind on software production that they have no choice but to pretend.

 

[TwiztidElf]

I'd say quality first party titles is more the fundamental philosophical difference.

 

[DarkMage619]

Sony are not advocating for cross gen, they never have and they actually encourage (and incentivise in some cases) developers to move on to new hardware. This is the first time we have ever had a console manufacturer talking nonsense about generations not being a positive thing.

Yes Flight sim 2020 still runs (but sub-optimally) on older hardware. Older PC hardware that is still stronger than the baseline last gen consoles in multiple ways that you clearly can't comprehend. There's a reason you needed 32gb ram and a modern 6+ core CPU to be accepted into the alpha for the game last year. The game was primarily built with modern systems in mind and it shows. People are upgrading their PC's for the game, new systems are being built and the new Nvidia cards will fly off the shelves.

Hopefully we can get more games like that. It's called progress and it's what most people want to see. If Halo looked like that no memes would have been made and there would currently be a lot more excitement and buzz around the Series X.

But apparently having buzz and people lining up to buy the new console over the alternatives is not important:

Microsoft Kinda Doesn't Care If You Buy An Xbox Series X

Xbox's strategy relies on services and subscriptions across multiple devices, Xbox Series X is just another means to get you there.

www.gamespot.com

Speaking of memes... Yes I will post Craig memes where appropriate. There seems to be one for every situation and when appropriate it can be funny. Sorry if the memes upset you, you should try laughing instead.

Your quote from Phil does not support the "we don't care if we sell consoles meme" going around here. That is your negative perception. Their success is based on their services not boxes moved which also supports their multi generational approach to games. They tried its Sony's way and it didn't work. It's insanity to do the same thing and expect a different result. I like the back compatibility and I like their console being the most powerful. It's a win win for gamers such as myself. Feel free to post all the 'Craig' memes you want you guys aren't really serious with the criticisms because it's all fanboy nonsense. Have fun man maybe play a game every once in a while.

 

[SLB1904]

I also believe in generations. I dont want a smooth tsansition, i want the wow factor.
Even when its time to upgrade PC, i sell it and i buy a new one

my man

 

[LazyParrot]

Without consoles, what exactly would be the minimum spec developers would be aiming for? 10 year old systems? Integrated graphics? The weakest GPU's currently on sale? What drive would there be as such, for most people to upgrade their specs? Consoles keep the baseline moving, and with it the upper ceiling for what high end PC games can realistically and easily afford to add as nice extras.

Consoles haven't been pushing the baseline forward for PC, they've been freezing it in place. If you bought a PC back in the mid to late 90s or early 2000s, it'd take 2 years max for games to show up that would require you to upgrade if you didn't want them to look and play like ass. Everyone knows the meme about the original Crysis being so demanding that nothing could run it properly, but games that were seemingly designed for hardware that didn't even exist yet weren't that uncommon back then. It was only once consoles became the lead development platform for almost all major releases during the PS3/360 era that you could pull shit like buying a 2600K in 2010 and getting good gaming performance out of it for nearly a decade.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Its not consoles holding PC back its poor folk who don't buy the latest Nvidia GPU.
Get a third job!

 

[Journey]

Pretty cringeworthy, the whole topic...

It's so stupid, the whole foundation is based on a preconceived notion that Microsoft doesn't believe in generations when they do, but they believe in smooth transitions which is fundamentally what separates them from Sony. While Sony thinks gamers should move up Cold Turkey, rip the band-aid approach, MS supports full backward compatibility and forward compatibility for at least a year while this transition happens.

MGS Series X exclusives will happen, just not right away. 3rd party developers are free to choose.

Everyone, please hide/ignore "The Medium" which is a Series X exclusive and just like Ratchet & Clank, is instant loading multiple worlds.

 

[mckmas8808]

Your quote from Phil does not support the "we don't care if we sell consoles meme" going around here. That is your negative perception. Their success is based on their services not boxes moved which also supports their multi generational approach to games. They tried its Sony's way and it didn't work. It's insanity to do the same thing and expect a different result. I like the back compatibility and I like their console being the most powerful. It's a win win for gamers such as myself. Feel free to post all the 'Craig' memes you want you guys aren't really serious with the criticisms because it's all fanboy nonsense. Have fun man maybe play a game every once in a while.

This means, selling hardware means less to them than it use to.