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France trying to impose global Google censorship

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No, you can believe what you want, but you may have missed that I live here, could verify this, and the "hack" think won't change what I observed in may 2015.

You could verify what? That Google's search algorithm did not list his blog "correctly" at some point in the past? What does this prove? Nothing. This could have been just a random glitch, and he immediately thinks of a conspiracy. There is zero proof that this is in any way connected to the "right to be forgotten" law.
 
Gemüsepizza;179702339 said:
So it could have been anything, but the blog owner said it must have been because of this law? And you believe that without hesitation? That sounds convincing. But I don't expect much else from this guy who thinks that intelligence agencies have hacked his blog and that politicians have him under surveillance. All without any proof of course.



Cheaper competition which is achieved by exploiting their own employees.

Yeah, that 5 hours I worked two weeks ago without lunch break or a paid leave is like a modern day salt mine.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Your government literally sided with the French taxi monopoly to prevent uber from creating cheaper competition. "Serving the people."

*disclaimer - I am a part time uber driver
Americans in many places shouldn't really throw stones about this glass house...

apologies if not American
 

El Topo

Member
The lack of existing legal procedure is exactly the problem with this law. You are putting the responsibility of weighing people's right to privacy vs others rights to a free press in the hands of some Google paralegal, who have to decide, under threat of potential lawsuits, without any possibility for the publisher to respond. That is fucking terrifying precendent, and it baffles me that people can't see the enormous abuse potential.

Google is doing it precisely to undermine the law. That is their modus operandi. They've done a similar "Don't blame us, we're forced to do this (except not really), blame them" approach in other cases, e.g. GEMA. They may very well be deliberately removing results that, by the very ruling, should not have to be removed. They are not the paragon of free speech they pretend to be.

I also find it kind of amusing that people consider 'fighting Google's power' to mean 'give Google the authority and responsibility to censor the internet with no court order'.

That is an enormous amount of power you are putting in the hands of a massive corporation.

They already have that power. They can do whatever they want. No one outside is controlling them. No one outside can look into how they obtain their results. I'd also stress that this is in no way any violation of free speech. Free speech doesn't mean that whatever you said must (be allowed) to show up in a search engine result.

This law/ruling is about giving people a legal basis to remove results, although there is no legal framework for it yet. It is about giving search engine operators the obligation to respect privacy and demands responsibility of them.

I think this would be self explanatory, but obviously Google would bend to regulation, even unreasonable regulation, before pulling out of the entire Eurozone.

They are a business first and foremost, their existence depends on an endless stream of ad revenue.

It is not self expanatory, because it is nonsensical. I've pointed out that there has been global censorship for many years, that Google already filters results in ways we cannot check or control, that many companies (for whatever reasons) actively filter content.

The idea that giving people, not countries or companies, the right to fight search engine results, under significant restrictions and currently without legal framework/procedure, would end global search is utterly ludicrous. If Google is a paragon of free speech, ignoring that they already censor results, they can simply leave that country.

I have a serious problem with the idea that I could perform a search on a corrupt Italian politician, an English child-abusing MP, a FIFA official accused of taking bribes in Zurich, or a French nationalist who wrote some unfortunate editorials about the blight of modern Islam, and come up blank because a European court ruled that these results aren't relevant or are actively harmful to the party who claims they have "moved on".

This is not an all-encompassing "Remove whatever you want" right, no matter how often you or others repeat this lie. This right does not stand above all else, but is embedded in European law and significantly restricted, e.g. by public interest. If such a link has been removed by Google so far, it is because they chose to. You have no one to blame but Google then.

I find it baffling that people have no problem with a company intransparently controlling search results, but a legal framework for people to defend themselves against such companies is treated like the end of the world.

If a country has a law that blasphemy is not allowed and bans it from search locally, would you then defend Google removing all results internationally just to ensure that country's citizens are forever protected from that content? That's the kind of precedence this sets, it will never just be about rape accusations and nude pictures.

How does giving individuals a legal right to fight search engine results within the constraints of European law set in any way a precent for a country forcing Google to remove blasphemy?

It's not Google's job to curate the internet to make people not feel bad. Giving them that kind of discretion is far more frightening than any potential loss of privacy...which is an illusion in the era where every government is reading everything you put on the web every single day.

This is about Google taking responsibility and giving people a legal right to fight search engine results. They don't get to control search engine results without legal responsibility.

Quite frankly this is Google's fault then for giving in to de-listing requests too hastily. This is why we would need judicial review and monitoring by civil rights bodies, in case of an application of this ruling. Though that still would not be ideal.

It is almost as if this enormous, rich company (with presumably a large legal department) was trying to discredit this law/right....
 

cntr

Banned
Look, who gives a shit if Google can control things? If I really am suspicious about a certain Google result, I go to DuckDuckGo.

If you however, make it legally mandatory for Google to do this, and thus by extension all indexing and search databases on the internet, including DDG, then I have no alternatives whatsoever!

Please justify that with your "Google already does shit" view.
 

El Topo

Member
None of them work transparently. They all control and filter results. The idea that giving people a legal basis for fighting search engine results, i.e. the idea that these companies and their results may be subject to law, would end the internet or freedom of speech or global search is delusional, even moreso when you look at the actual ruling.
 

Joni

Member
Your government literally sided with the French taxi monopoly to prevent uber from creating cheaper competition. "Serving the people."

*disclaimer - I am a part time uber driver

There would be no problem as long as Uber or its drivers have the required assurance, pay social security and income taxes. The price would also no longer be cheaper; all stuff meant to protect the population. It just would have the technological advantage.
 

M3d10n

Member
The level of hatred towards France in this thread is astounding and quite disgusting to be honest.

If Google, which is a fucking corporation, and isn't a direct representative of America, wants to do business in France it should comply with French rules, that's about it.

France wants their rules to apply to everyone outside France too. It sets a precedent that would allow countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia to demand worldwide content deletion to match their internal laws.
 

cntr

Banned
None of them work transparently. They all control and filter results. The idea that giving people a legal basis for fighting search engine results, i.e. the idea that these companies and their results may be subject to law, would end the internet or freedom of speech or global search is delusional, even moreso when you look at the actual ruling.
And you can try as many as you want. Not in your future of global censorship.

I will not think otherwise unless there's proof, and actual proof, not their word, that it won't happen.
 

benjipwns

Banned
This is about Google taking responsibility and giving people a legal right to fight search engine results. They don't get to control search engine results without legal responsibility.
They already game the results enough, we don't need Google cutting off entire swaths of the internet from search results because people demand a "right" to control everyone else's voluntary search engine results.
 

M3d10n

Member
None of them work transparently. They all control and filter results. The idea that giving people a legal basis for fighting search engine results, i.e. the idea that these companies and their results may be subject to law, would end the internet or freedom of speech or global search is delusional, even moreso when you look at the actual ruling.

You can switch search engines at will. You cannot switch governments at will. After something was deleted, how do you know it was valid and done with the full scrutiny the law requires? How do you even know something was deleted at all?
 

El Topo

Member
You can switch search engines at will. You cannot switch governments at will. After something was deleted, how do you know it was valid and done with the full scrutiny the law requires? How do you even know something was deleted at all?

I would like to emphasize that right now there is currently no specific legal framework, as was mentioned repeatedly. You are free to hand in your specific complaint, Google is free to remove or not remove a search result and you are free to seek the regular legal way if you disagree. I do not know how Bing or other search engines are handling this currently.

I don't see why it should be publicly visible that something was deleted. That goes against the very core of the law. I'm sure one could however come up with an internal system that allows legal (or restricted) investigation. Keep in mind this is solely about search engines, not about actually deleting the information, so certainly this information is (or could be) stored somewhere.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Why aren't they mandating server hosts delete the offending content? Just taking it off Google doesn't stop tabloids like the New York Times or Le Monde from linking to it or posting it themselves.
 
France wants their rules to apply to everyone outside France too. It sets a precedent that would allow countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia to demand worldwide content deletion to match their internal laws.

Seriously, the inability of some posters to see beyond their own borders is kind of frightening. No one country should be able to dictate worldwide Internet content based on their own laws. If France wants a "private Internet", let them, don't drag the rest of the world down with you.
 

El Topo

Member
Why aren't they mandating server hosts delete the offending content? Just taking it off Google doesn't stop tabloids like the New York Times or Le Monde from linking to it or posting it themselves.

Because you can already take legal action against websites hosting information. This is simply a natural extension to search engines. It is not about the deletion of information or suppression of freedom of speech.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Because you can already take legal action against websites hosting information. ... It is not about the deletion of information or suppression of freedom of speech.
Then what's the point of taking legal action to protect my right to be forgotten?
 

cntr

Banned
Because you can already take legal action against websites hosting information. This is simply a natural extension to search engines. It is not about the deletion of information or suppression of freedom of speech.
Only if you're so blind that you can't see actual consequences of this plan.

I don't know about you, but to me, consequences are more important than intentions in action.
 

iamblades

Member
Because you can already take legal action against websites hosting information. This is simply a natural extension to search engines. It is not about the deletion of information or suppression of freedom of speech.

If you can take legal action against websites hosting information, then do it.

That is not what the controversy is about. It's about governments using search blocking to affect content outside their jurisdiction and to get around free speech rights. Much of this content wouldn't be blocked by a court order, because it is perfectly legal to publish.

I know you are going to say 'but but the DMCA does that', so before you do, I'm going to say that using the DMCA(a notoriously shitty law that drastically infringes on free speech, and Europeans are usually the first to argue such) as an example does not really help your case. It's like saying you should tell a knife wielding maniac to stab you again because, after all, it didn't kill you the first time.

We know these 'right to be forgotten' laws have already been abused, and if the DMCA is any example, the abuse will only continue. Google doesn't have the time or the resources or the institutional knowledge to investigate these takedown requests(and they couldn't effectively do so in any case, if they can't notify the publisher and get their side of the arguments), so what will happen in effect is that Google has to rubber stamp any request that comes in under fear of lawsuits and government fines. Look at the DMCA enforcement for how that works out.
 
Quite frankly this is Google's fault then for giving in to de-listing requests too hastily. This is why we would need judicial review and monitoring by civil rights bodies, in case of an application of this ruling. Though that still would not be ideal.

The law incentivizes Google to delist under every circumstance. There's legal liability if they refuse a request and no consequences for accepting a spurious request. It's silly to blame Google when the real problem is the law. It was insane in the first place to put the search engine provider in the position to decide which requests are valid. The requests should be going through the legal system.
 
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