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First images from The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

Azurro

Banned
It's not the same at all. None of the established characters have been race or gender swapped, and nowhere in any of the books does it say that dwarves, elves, and humans can only be white.

And who are we to say that the source material is being disrespected, when the Tolkien Estate and Tolkien Trust are alright with it?

Already two races from the book have been race swapped and the production is very concerned with "representing the world we live in". It's even worse, it's like making a movie based in India and there's a whole bunch of Chinese, Arabs and Africans.

It's already disrespectful, so imagine how shit the product is going to be when they are focused on strong women that need no man and representation before even attempting to portray the source material?

This really does piss me off, LOTR is probably my favorite movie series ever and this is just cashing in with the main objective of pushing a social political agenda.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
So? People would complain if somebody casted a chinese guy to play Spawn. It's disrespectful to the source material.

What's next? Will they depict trans elves and gender fluid dwarfs?

The books never said "the elves and dwarves and Hobbits had white skin" ... "Fairest of all beings" wasn't talking about the elves skin color either.

They could be any color because they aren't human.

So your comparison makes no sense.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
An interesting way to depict the mortal choice the descendants of Beren and Luthien face would be for the actor playing Beren to be a different ethnicity than the one chosen for the elves (indigenous South American for Beren and norweigen for the elves for example) and the characters that make the choice to be human literally change as their "human genes" take over. For a visual representation of this admittedly odd phenomenon this could work. Then again, considering all the 2-3rd cousin inbreeding in the half elven line this could get complicated real quick :p
 
Tolkien's writings are explicitly his attempt to write an Anglo-Saxon mythology. It's a reflection of the essence and spirit of that particular type of culture.
Injecting post-modern spirit affects the authenticity of the work. You can even see this in some of Jackson's misguided scenes and subplots, but those don't permeate the entire work.
Elements that are outside of the Anglo-Saxon framework (i.e. people of different races, different types of fantasy creatures) can be added and easily accepted if they're explicitly portrayed as coming from outside, like the Haradrim.

Remember Thulsa Doom in Conan the Barbarian? He had long, straight hair and blue eyes because he was one of the last surviving Atlanteans and was not representing a modern race. He was portrayed by a dope as fuck actor but that's beside the point. Why does the elf dude in the Amazon show look like a modern fashion model with short hair?

An interesting way to depict the mortal choice the descendants of Beren and Luthien face would be for the actor playing Beren to be a different ethnicity than the one chosen for the elves (indigenous South American for Beren and norweigen for the elves for example) and the characters that make the choice to be human literally change as their "human genes" take over. For a visual representation of this admittedly odd phenomenon this could work.

I'm pretty sure Cloud Atlas is banned in leftist circles today so that wouldn't be acceptable lol
 
Few things to unpack here.

Elves are described as fair skinned/pale in the lore. Not to mention that since dwarves and elves are creatures of Germanic mythology, the books are heavily modeled on mythology and history from early Germanic Europe and Anglo Saxon England, and all prior official art of dwarves, Elves and hobbits (art by Alan Lee for example), which was signed off by the Tolkien estate, and presumably Christopher Tolkien (especially for the art that came with the books Christopher finished) as well all show them as white. There are non white people in Tolkien's world that live to the east, but not in the part of the world where the main stories take place.

A few years ago there was a big debate as to if Tolkien was racist. The argument was that since the only non white people in Tolkien's writings were the "bad guys" who sided with Sauron, then therefore Tolkien was racist. There was also the ludicrous argument with the Orcs. However, Tolkien (as far as we know anyway) wasn't racist because he didn't make his world all multiracial. He just wanted to write his own mythology, which just happened to be based on his love for Germanic languages, mythology and history.

In terms of the Tolkien estate signing off on these new characters, I'm sure the obscene amount of money had some part to play in this, that and telling Amazon not to make the world look like 21st century USA would mean the estate would face the wrath of the social media mob.
Really well thought-out reply and I totally get what you're saying. I understand that because of the influences Tolkien's works stem from lend itself to predominantly white characters, and that of the cast of characters we know of, especially elves and dwarves, they were described as pale/fair-skinned. However, the distinction I was making was that, despite all that, there's still nothing to indicate that these characters can only be white.

Do we know of any non-white dwarves or elves? We do not, but there's nothing to indicate it couldn't be a possibility. It's a creative liberty for sure, but it doesn't break the source material by any means, it just deviates from the Anglo-Saxon roots the works were based on. You could say those roots are an important part of it, but ultimately they're just an inspiration for the setting, and not a hard and fast rule for the setting itself.

Regarding the Tolkien Estate though, regardless of their reasons, I still feel they know what's best when it comes to the source material, more-so than the neckbeards yelling "Whites Only."
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I'm actually kinda surprised they didn't go with Maori for dwarves. Given the demographics of New Zealand (70% white, 18% maori, 12% asian, and 1% anything else) they definitely need a mixed crowd for extras and background. But they gotta import pretty much any black actor so it was an odd logistical decision. Asians as elves also works as you can get some really interesting faces there that helps to mask the "human with pointy ear cosplay" look. Lighter colored hair can be tricky to pull off though.

I wonder if the timeline collapse into a single human lifetime was really to avoid casting issues stemming from multi-racial hook-ups making it difficult to cast logical grandkids/great-grandkids without running into a "they are all homogenous now" problem :p
 

Kimahri

Banned
I'm actually kinda surprised they didn't go with Maori for dwarves. Given the demographics of New Zealand (70% white, 18% maori, 12% asian, and 1% anything else) they definitely need a mixed crowd for extras and background. But they gotta import pretty much any black actor so it was an odd logistical decision. Asians as elves also works as you can get some really interesting faces there that helps to mask the "human with pointy ear cosplay" look. Lighter colored hair can be tricky to pull off though.

I wonder if the timeline collapse into a single human lifetime was really to avoid casting issues stemming from multi-racial hook-ups making it difficult to cast logical grandkids/great-grandkids without running into a "they are all homogenous now" problem :p
Didn't you get the memo? Diversity means "add black actors". Other ethnicities don't exist, and all caucasians are the same ethnicity.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Didn't you get the memo? Diversity means "add black actors". Other ethnicities don't exist, and all caucasians are the same ethnicity.
That does seem to be the thing.

Though I gotta admit, while watching "All of us are Dead" on netflix I could have used some non-Korean actors in there to help differentiate characters. No funky hair (other than "that girl" and the half shaved head guy and most of them in school uniforms made it REALLY hard to tell some of them, especially the girls, apart. So there is a value in using ethnicity as a visual distinguisher, the blind color wheel casting is my issue.
 

Elysion

Banned
Having just skimmed that Vanity Fair article, one description stood out to me:

‚Bronwyn is a single mother and healer, seen here in her apothecary in Middle-earth’s Southlands.‘

Not only will he have the pleasure of watching the struggles of this single mom, but apparently there‘s a ‚forbidden romance‘ between her and a black elf.

Yep, this is going to be exactly what everyone thought it was going to be, lol.
 

Kimahri

Banned
That does seem to be the thing.

Though I gotta admit, while watching "All of us are Dead" on netflix I could have used some non-Korean actors in there to help differentiate characters. No funky hair (other than "that girl" and the half shaved head guy and most of them in school uniforms made it REALLY hard to tell some of them, especially the girls, apart. So there is a value in using ethnicity as a visual distinguisher, the blind color wheel casting is my issue.
Thanks for reminding me. I need to watch that. I've hsf no issue telling people apart in Asian shows before, but I get your issue. Some of those kpop singer are near identical.
 

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
You could say those roots are an important part of it, but ultimately they're just an inspiration for the setting, and not a hard and fast rule for the setting itself.

Hard disagree. They're hugely important part of it. The languages Tolkien created, the locations, traditions, character and place names are based on Germanic and Anglo Saxon mythology (Beowulf for example) or history (Kingdom of Mercia was used as the template for Rohan). It wasn't just that, it was also an England that loved and parts of an England that he remembered from his youth. Alteration to this vision to turn this into a representation of 21st century USA is disrespectful to Tolkien's vision and life's work.
 
The books never said "the elves and dwarves and Hobbits had white skin" ... "Fairest of all beings" wasn't talking about the elves skin color either.

They could be any color because they aren't human.

So your comparison makes no sense.
I thought elves were blue...
Ee2zfDE.jpg
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Some interesting stuff and concerns pointed out from the lore that doesn't seem to jive with Amazon's adaptation...

Also coming up with entirely new characters and stories as if Tolkien would've written it that way... ouch. Kicking Tom Shippey(Tolkien scholar) out doesn't seem like a good sign either.

 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
The fuck? Witch- King " No man can defeat me" Angmar was face stab to death by a woman warrior.

The more I watch that scene the more I'm OK with it. She sneaks in the battle because "war is the province of men", she looks out of place on the battlefield (facial expressions are great, armor doesn't fit, weird stance...) and Merry is pivotal in helping her defeat the Witch King.

Plus, there are examples of women fighters doing extraordinary things during wartime.


Still, probably would have been better if she was an archer who's arrow took down the witch king instead. Her fight scene looked like it was written for some giant dwarf instead.
 

AJUMP23

Gold Member
They kicked out the Tolkien scholar? What are they doing.


I thought they had a contract that said they could not deviate from the story as it was written?
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Thread should've been about the enormous article and not just a reaction to the photos, so I'll go through it and pick out some bits.

Galadriel’s world is a raging sea. Far from the wise, ethereal elven queen that Cate Blanchett brought to Peter Jackson’s acclaimed films, the Galadriel played by Morfydd Clark in Amazon’s upcoming series The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power is thousands of years younger, as angry and brash as she is clever, and certain that evil is looming closer than anyone realizes. By episode two, her warnings set her adrift, literally and figuratively, until she’s struggling for survival on a raft in the storm-swept Sundering Seas alongside a mortal castaway named Halbrand (Charlie Vickers), who is a new character introduced in the show. Galadriel is fighting for the future; Halbrand is running from the past. Their entwined destinies are just two of the stories woven together for a TV series that, if it works, could become a global phenomenon. If it falls short, it could become a cautionary tale for anyone who, to quote J.R.R. Tolkien, delves too greedily and too deep.

^ Galadriel, younger and brash and angry at nearly 5,000 years old. Basically a teenager.

Galadriel’s survival at sea is not just a crucial story point at the start of the series—the showrunners remember it as a pivotal moment on set in New Zealand back in March 2020. “Morfydd was a few days into being Galadriel, which is probably terrifying,” says McKay. “She’s in water. There’s a lot of visual effects. There’s music and light.” But despite the momentous scene in front of them, the show’s crew were glued to their phones: Within 45 minutes, word spread that in nearby Australia Tom Hanks had contracted COVID, the NBA had canceled its season, and the World Health Organization declared a global pandemic. “We’re all just going, ‘Oh, my God, what are we going to do? We’re going to have to shut everything down,’ ” says McKay. The panic metastasized, setting off other anxieties, big and small. “It was terrifying. ‘Oh, my God, is anyone going to understand what we’re trying to do here? Is this way too ambitious? We have no idea what’s going to happen tomorrow.’ ”

^ I know that when I run projects I make sure to freak out and go "OH MY GOD WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO" around everyone as much as possible. It helps to put the team at ease.

The potential upside, though, was a must-see show with a built-in audience that could virtually guarantee survival in the Great Global Streaming War. HBO and Netflix were among the bidders, but Bezos’s Amazon team won the rights for $250 million. “He is personally a huge fan of Tolkien and incredibly passionate about all of it and very well-versed,” says Jennifer Salke, the head of Amazon Studios. “His desire to be ambitious—and for us to be ambitious with our content—has always been clear from the moment I got here. This fit perfectly with that big ambition, to take on something that would require the whole company working together to execute.”


Amazon won’t confirm the show’s budget, but on top of the money for the rights, the government of New Zealand has placed production expenditures at $462 million for the first season alone. That figure includes building infrastructure that will be used in later seasons—and it’s been offset by a $108 million tax rebate. But by contrast, Amazon’s recent fantasy series The Wheel of Time reportedly cost $80 million a season. Once you factor in the eventual global marketing campaign—and the cost of those subsequent seasons—there’s no question that The Rings of Power will eventually speed far beyond the billion-dollar mark.

^ Jeff Bezos is a "huge fan of Tolkien and incredibly passionate about all of it and very well-versed," just like he's very well-versed about rockets. $462 million production budget on the first season alone, not counting the forthcoming marketing campaign.

Just as Tolkien entrusted his quest to Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee, Amazon chose two unlikely newcomers. McKay and Payne are high school friends from northern Virginia who have been writing in Hollywood together for 13 years. The Rings of Power is their first credited IMDB listing. They know—it’s astounding to them too. “We’ve worked on so many projects with so many awesome and exciting people that never got made or worked on things that did get made and we didn’t get credit,” says McKay. “We were a little bit of a dark horse. And Amazon talked to absolutely everybody—whoever had any idea for Lord of the Rings.” Adds Payne: “We were passionate about the material and had a take that matched Amazon’s appetites and ambition.” They also apparently had a significant champion in J.J. Abrams, who knew them from their writing on a Star Trek movie and reportedly sang their praises.

Pitching 50 hours of television to Amazon executives—and ultimately to the Tolkien family as well—was arduous but nothing compared to writing, producing, and bringing the show to life. “We felt like hobbits,” Payne says. “We felt like two very small people in a very big world who had just been entrusted with something that meant so much to so many different people.” The showrunners found themselves quoting Frodo’s famous line from the end of The Fellowship of the Ring. “Patrick and I will often look at each other in challenging moments of the show and say, ‘I’m glad you’re with me, Sam.’ ”

“He’s Sam,” McKay adds. “Just kidding, I’m Sam.”

A project of this size would never be pulled off alone. Amazon executives, still relatively new to original content, assembled an experienced support team. Game of Thrones co–executive producer Bryan Cogman stepped in as an adviser to help McKay and Payne get the project off the ground, and veteran filmmaker J.A. Bayona (Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom) established the tone of the series by directing the first two episodes.

Bayona was attracted not just by the duo’s script but by their willingness to accept advice. “From the very beginning, I trusted these guys,” Bayona says. “I knew what they were going through and they knew what I was going through also, because can you imagine going back to such a beloved world and [facing] the high bar of the Peter Jackson movies? We were, all the time, very aware of the massive expectations.”

A fellowship was formed.

^ The showrunners feel like hobbits and have been assigned an "experienced support team."

There was one leak in 2019 that, however innocuous, worried some of those watching from afar. The show’s resident Tolkien scholar—a widely respected academic named Tom Shippey—gave an apparently unsanctioned interview to a German fan site that July, opining on what the show could and could not explore. Not long after that, Shippey was no longer involved with the series. Both he and the showrunners decline to say what exactly happened, but the obvious assumption was made by fans. “It seems like the NDA is basically ‘If you tell anyone, we can put you through a wood chipper,’ ” says Drout, the Tolkien professor. Amazon no longer shares the names of its scholars.

^ Tom Shippey fired for breaking NDA. They have other Tolkien scholars.

After news broke that Amazon had hired an intimacy coordinator for its New Zealand set, some fans feared that the production might have lost sight of what makes Tolkien Tolkien. “My worry would be if it becomes a Game of Thrones in the Second Age,” says Dimitra Fimi, a Tolkien scholar and lecturer at the University of Glasgow. “That wouldn’t be what one would associate with Tolkien’s vision. It would also be derivative.”

So will there be Westerosi levels of violence and sex in Amazon’s Middle-earth? In short, no. McKay says the goal was “to make a show for everyone, for kids who are 11, 12, and 13, even though sometimes they might have to pull the blanket up over their eyes if it’s a little too scary. We talked about the tone in Tolkien’s books. This is material that is sometimes scary—and sometimes very intense, sometimes quite political, sometimes quite sophisticated—but it’s also heartwarming and life-affirming and optimistic. It’s about friendship and it’s about brotherhood and underdogs overcoming great darkness.”

^ No Game of Thrones level sex and violence, but kids may get scared.

Another concern: Is the series going to put hobbits in the Second Age? In short (so to speak), yes and no. “One of the very specific things the texts say is that hobbits never did anything historic or noteworthy before the Third Age,” says McKay. “But really, does it feel like Middle-earth if you don’t have hobbits or something like hobbits in it?” The hobbit ancestors in this era are called harfoots. They may not live in The Shire, but they are satisfyingly hobbit-adjacent. McKay and Payne have constructed a pastoral harfoot society that thrives on secrecy and evading detection so that they can play out a kind of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead story in the margins of the bigger quests. Two lovable, curious harfoots, played by Megan Richards and Markella Kavenagh, encounter a mysterious lost man whose origin promises to be one of the show’s most enticing enigmas.

^ Ways to clumsily insert not-hobbits.

Amazon’s series will also broaden the notion of who shares the world of Middle-earth. One original story line centers on a silvan elf named Arondir, played by Ismael Cruz Córdova, who will be the first person of color to play an elf onscreen in a Tolkien project. He is involved in a forbidden relationship with Bronwyn, a human village healer played by Nazanin Boniadi, a British actor of Iranian heritage. Elsewhere, a Brit of Jamaican descent, Sir Lenny Henry, plays a harfoot elder, and Sophia Nomvete has a scene-stealing role as a dwarven princess named Disa—the latter being the first Black woman to play a dwarf in a Lord of the Rings movie, as well as the first female dwarf. “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”

When Amazon released photos of its multicultural cast, even without character names or plot details, the studio endured a reflexive attack from trolls—the anonymous online kind. “Obviously there was going to be push and backlash,” says Tolkien scholar Mariana Rios Maldonado, “but the question is from whom? Who are these people that feel so threatened or disgusted by the idea that an elf is Black or Latino or Asian?”

Even hard-core fans who regard Tolkien’s work as sacrosanct will recognize his message of unity. Staying true to that is as important as realizing his vision of places and characters from this little known era in his fiction. We will finally see the full glory of Khazad-dûm—the cavernous necropolis carved into the Misty Mountains, where, in Jackson’s The Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf famously bellowed at the Balrog, “You shall not pass!” The show will explore that kingdom when it was still full of light, food, and music. It will also bring the elven smith Celebrimbor (Charles Edwards) to life, as his skill with metals and magic lead to the forging of the rings. And a canny young elven architect and politician named Elrond (Robert Aramayo) will rise to prominence in the mystical capital of Lindon. Another story line will follow a sailor named Isildur (Maxim Baldry) years before he becomes a warrior and cuts the soul-corrupting ring off Sauron’s hand, then falls victim to its powers himself.

^ Hardcore fans who regard Tolkien's work as sacrosanct are still racist if they don't accept Amazon's message of unity.

In the novels, the aforementioned things take place over thousands of years, but Payne and McKay have compressed events into a single point in time. It is their biggest deviation from the text, and they know it’s a big swing. “We talked with the Tolkien estate,” says Payne. “If you are true to the exact letter of the law, you are going to be telling a story in which your human characters are dying off every season because you’re jumping 200 years in time, and then you’re not meeting really big, important canon characters until season four. Look, there might be some fans who want us to do a documentary of Middle-earth, but we’re going to tell one story that unites all these things.”

The showrunners clearly have great respect for Tolkien, but you can’t make a 50-hour adaptation without taking creative risks. “We think the work will eventually speak for itself,” Payne says when asked if fan concern and speculation ever unnerves him. “Before an orchestra starts, audiences will talk to each other, but then as soon as the music begins, you’re in and you’re listening to that music.”

^ Thousands of years compressed to a single point in time for adaptation purposes.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Since a lot of people are concerned about what happened to Tom Shippey, here's the interview he was fired over:



Notably:

So does Amazon have a free hand in the interpretation?​

Amazon has a relatively free hand when it comes to adding something, since, as I said, very few details are known about this time span. The Tolkien Estate will insist that the main shape of the Second Age is not altered. Sauron invades Eriador, is forced back by a Númenorean expedition, is returns to Númenor. There he corrupts the Númenoreans and seduces them to break the ban of the Valar. All this, the course of history, must remain the same. But you can add new characters and ask a lot of questions, like: What has Sauron done in the meantime? Where was he after Morgoth was defeated? Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it. But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say. That’s what Amazon has to watch out for. It must be canonical, it is impossible to change the boundaries which Tolkien has created, it is necessary to remain “tolkienian”.

I expect he was sacked over comments like this one, not over revealing story details (which are just broadly discussing Tolkien's work).
 

Azurro

Banned
The books never said "the elves and dwarves and Hobbits had white skin" ... "Fairest of all beings" wasn't talking about the elves skin color either.

They could be any color because they aren't human.

So your comparison makes no sense.

This is a dumb attempt at finding a loophole. Tolkien's mythology is based on Germanic folklore, were there tons of people of color in the middle ages in central Europe? They are disrespecting the source material.

But of course, I'm sure you'd be offended if a white actor was cast in a role meant for a black person. Just be honest and say you love the woke shit.

This is so frustrating, I was hoping a bit for more quality LOTR stories, and instead we get fat black lady and strong woman representing.
 
B
Exactly. Gennifer Hutchinson has written for Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and X-Files. You can't get much better TV writing cred then that. Then there is also Bryan Cogman from Game of Thrones, no slouch. Justin Doble wrote for Stranger Things and The Path, reasonably good shows, so he might be fine. You're right though, the writer who wrote 5 episodes of Breaking Bad is the one who inspires most of my confidence, for good reason.
Breaking Bad is 62 episodes. 5 episodes is not a lot. Also, it’s the X-Files video games, not the TV series. And I see no Mad Men writing credit.

I think those writing credits don’t mean much - it’s the showrunners that dictate the story. The writers are just there to write the dialog and such.
 

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
The books never said "the elves and dwarves and Hobbits had white skin" ... "Fairest of all beings" wasn't talking about the elves skin color either.

They could be any color because they aren't human.

So your comparison makes no sense.

Incorrect.

Elves are white, or pale complexion as Tolkien described them.

These beings (I'll leave out hobbits for a moment) are creatures from Germanic mythology. Tolkien clearly envisioned them as white because they're from a Northern European setting.
 

Ammogeddon

Member
The worst thing they could’ve done is a vanity fair article. I’m not a fan of the photos, they are too contrived, precise and clinical.

Don’t know why but I’m getting Foundation vibes from it. Wanted to like that show but it was dull as dishwater.

It needs to be grittier. Hopefully the trailer will come across better.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
This is a dumb attempt at finding a loophole. Tolkien's mythology is based on Germanic folklore, were there tons of people of color in the middle ages in central Europe? They are disrespecting the source material.

But of course, I'm sure you'd be offended if a white actor was cast in a role meant for a black person. Just be honest and say you love the woke shit.

This is so frustrating, I was hoping a bit for more quality LOTR stories, and instead we get fat black lady and strong woman representing.

Yes, there WERE black people in Europe in the middle ages. There were also other brown people from the East in medieval Europe too!

I'd be offended if a white person were cast in a role where the race of the character was specific to the story, like Black Panther or Static or even A Man Called Hawk ... But someone like Eric LaSalle's character from ER... Anyone of any race could play his character in a reboot series since his character's race isn't material to the story.

But yes, there were black and brown peoples in the middle ages in Europe, especially in Spain, London and Germany.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Yes, there WERE black people in Europe in the middle ages. There were also other brown people from the East in medieval Europe too!

I'd be offended if a white person were cast in a role where the race of the character was specific to the story, like Black Panther or Static or even A Man Called Hawk ... But someone like Eric LaSalle's character from ER... Anyone of any race could play his character in a reboot series since his character's race isn't material to the story.

But yes, there were black and brown peoples in the middle ages in Europe, especially in Spain, London and Germany.
Why MUST Black Panther be a black guy? He is from a secretive African nation, but his lineage could include European, Asian, or American immigrants? We see that wakanda has agents all over the world, are they super racist against anyone that looks different?

And there were DEFINITELY non black groups in Africa. Maybe wakanda was founded by Babylonians fleeing Roman annihilation and are mediterranean in origin???

See, it works both ways.
 
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DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Why MUST Black Panther be a black guy? He is from a secretive African nation, but his lineage could include European, Asian, or American immigrants? We see that wakanda has agents all over the world, are they super racist against anyone that looks different?

And there were DEFINITELY non black groups in Africa. Maybe wakanda was founded by Babylonians fleeing Roman annihilation and are mediterranean in origin???

See, it works both ways.

No, it doesn't.

Wakanda is an isolationist nation that had never been invaded ... The history of Wakanda is rooted in actual African tribes... Various tribes brought together by a king who was helped and helped establish Wakanda by an African god, Bast. So no, it couldn't be what you suggested. It doesn't work both ways.

Non-black groups in Africa is a thing but they were not majority groups. Because of Egypt's position in North Africa as a hub of trade and academia, it was unique in how their demographics went through constant changes. The same can't be said of Sub-saharan Africa. Islam spread throughout Africa in later years, from the 1500s to now .. but Christianity also existed in Africa before then... Not brought by European missionaries either.

You're trying to simplify the history (even the fictional history) to fit what you'd like to believe is true.
 

Doom85

Member
Why MUST Black Panther be a black guy? He is from a secretive African nation, but his lineage could include European, Asian, or American immigrants? We see that wakanda has agents all over the world, are they super racist against anyone that looks different?

And there were DEFINITELY non black groups in Africa. Maybe wakanda was founded by Babylonians fleeing Roman annihilation and are mediterranean in origin???

See, it works both ways.

Because T’Challa’s race/ethnicity is actually relevant to his specific character due to the topics covered in the comics and movies. Not saying he might not have some non-black people in his lineage but he is meant to be primarily black. On the other hand, I don’t remember the skin tone of the people in any of the Middle Earth works to be one of the primary topics. Pretty sure it was focused more on war, evil lords, corrupt magic items, long and exhausting journeys, etc.

Hell, they didn’t even race change Elrond or Galadriel. So this example makes no sense. Because I assume you meant T’Challa when you said Black Panther. If you meant the mantle in general and thus are trying to get around referring to a specific character, well you’re showing a lack of knowledge on the comics since Shuri is the second most well known person to hold the BP mantle but you specified “he” as if BP had to be a dude.

But I’ll hand it to you. At least you didn’t equate changing the race of a fictional person to changing the race of a hypothetical movie portrayal of Martin Luther King Jr. Yes, this was a thing someone tried to use as an equal change here in Gaf a year or so back, and it had to be one of the more dumbass posts I’ve seen on Gaf. Yes, a fictional character versus the man who helped usher in better lives for countless people in the US, why that’s TOTALLY a valid comparison.

Conan Obrien Ugh GIF by Team Coco
 

Azurro

Banned
Yes, there WERE black people in Europe in the middle ages. There were also other brown people from the East in medieval Europe too!

I'd be offended if a white person were cast in a role where the race of the character was specific to the story, like Black Panther or Static or even A Man Called Hawk ... But someone like Eric LaSalle's character from ER... Anyone of any race could play his character in a reboot series since his character's race isn't material to the story.

But yes, there were black and brown peoples in the middle ages in Europe, especially in Spain, London and Germany.

You are like a textbook woke advocate, just because maybe and just maybe one or two lost black guys in the middle ages, it doesn't mean the populations there weren't 99.99% white in central Europe. Stop propagating lies and just come forward that you don't care about the quality of any content and just want to see the woke agenda be pushed.

On the same token, how about we make Black Panther white? There were and are white people in Africa, right? So, why not? I get it though, you have your agenda and want to see it pushed no matter how insane and ridiculous it is. That shit is going to destroy western societies.
 
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DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
You are like a textbook woke advocate, just because maybe and just maybe one or two lost black guys in the middle ages, it doesn't mean the populations there weren't 99.99% white in central Europe. Stop propagating lies and just come forward that you don't care about the quality of any content and just want to see the woke agenda be pushed.

On the same token, how about we make Black Panther white? There were and are white people in Africa, right? So, why not? I get it though, you have your agenda and want to see it pushed no matter how insane and ridiculous it is. That shit is going to destroy western societies.

Umm... Dude... One or 2 lost black guys? I didn't say they were majority but there were MORE than one or 2 black guys in medieval Europe. You have to understand, there was international/intercontinental trade and travel even back then.

To further my point, here's art from 1500 and earlier:

S03k1f4.jpg
5fqm8v3.jpg
VIuV9l2.jpg
KnS4w3u.jpg
g0mpxOW.jpg
u4DJ9Uu.jpg
DDf2JgT.jpg


You saying I'm lying and "woke" about actual history is high-key ignorant and shows you don't actually know what you're talking about, at best.

At worst... Well, yeah. Especially with how you went at me calling me a liar and such.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
No, it doesn't.

Wakanda is an isolationist nation that had never been invaded ... The history of Wakanda is rooted in actual African tribes... Various tribes brought together by a king who was helped and helped establish Wakanda by an African god, Bast. So no, it couldn't be what you suggested. It doesn't work both ways.

Non-black groups in Africa is a thing but they were not majority groups. Because of Egypt's position in North Africa as a hub of trade and academia, it was unique in how their demographics went through constant changes. The same can't be said of Sub-saharan Africa. Islam spread throughout Africa in later years, from the 1500s to now .. but Christianity also existed in Africa before then... Not brought by European missionaries either.

You're trying to simplify the history (even the fictional history) to fit what you'd like to believe is true.
Middle earth is rooted in the actual history of northern Europe as well. And non white groups are extremely minority groups as well. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

I get it, Wakanda as a black nation led by exclysively black people is important to you. LOTR is the same thing to lots of folks from Anglo-Saxon descent.

But to say wakanda MUST be 100% black is EXACTLY the same thing as saying middle earth should be 100% white.

BOTH ARE FICTIONAL , yet both are rooted in specific ethnic lore.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Umm... Dude... One or 2 lost black guys? I didn't say they were majority but there were MORE than one or 2 black guys in medieval Europe. You have to understand, there was international/intercontinental trade and travel even back then.

To further my point, here's art from 1500 and earlier:

S03k1f4.jpg
5fqm8v3.jpg
VIuV9l2.jpg
KnS4w3u.jpg
g0mpxOW.jpg
u4DJ9Uu.jpg
DDf2JgT.jpg


You saying I'm lying and "woke" about actual history is high-key ignorant and shows you don't actually know what you're talking about, at best.

At worst... Well, yeah. Especially with how you went at me calling me a liar and such.


And about there being white people in Africa... The White South Africans came in the 1700s from the Netherlands... The largest population in Sub-Saharan Africa. Not a majority and not enough people to lay claim to the throne or even be a majority population of Wakanda.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Here is an African that appeared out of nowhere and is leading the world in technological advances that seemed like magic just a few years before, just like so people in Wakanda wanted to do...

oXgT5x1.jpg


See what I mean? Black Panther COULD be any race, it is his environment and technological privilege that makes the character, not the melanin concentration.

But for the record, I like BP just the way he has always been.

I also like LOTR the same way.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
And about there being white people in Africa... The White South Africans came in the 1700s from the Netherlands... The largest population in Sub-Saharan Africa. Not a majority and not enough people to lay claim to the throne or even be a majority population of Wakanda.
Dude, ever hear about those white guys called the GREEKS? They like, ruled some pretty powerful African nations for a few centuries or something.

History, do you know it?
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Middle earth is rooted in the actual history of northern Europe as well. And non white groups are extremely minority groups as well. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

I get it, Wakanda as a black nation led by exclysively black people is important to you. LOTR is the same thing to lots of folks from Anglo-Saxon descent.

But to say wakanda MUST be 100% black is EXACTLY the same thing as saying middle earth should be 100% white.

BOTH ARE FICTIONAL , yet both are rooted in specific ethnic lore.

I get you. LOTR as a whole is one of my favorite movie series ever!
I have no problem with them being 100% white as I knew Tolkien wanted it to be a distinctly English mythology. The lore is rich and amazing!

I was just pushing back on the hysterics of there never being ANY black and brown people in medieval Europe or that they were in any way part of medieval European society when there were those who were.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Dude, ever hear about those white guys called the GREEKS? They like, ruled some pretty powerful African nations for a few centuries or something.

History, do you know it?

Yes, I actually know about the Greeks AND the Romans. That isn't my point and one you are moving goal posts on.

There were also powerful African nations that had no Greek or Roman or otherwise white rule.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Yes, I actually know about the Greeks AND the Romans. That isn't my point and one you are moving goal posts on.

There were also powerful African nations that had no Greek or Roman or otherwise white rule.
But your argument is that middle earth shouldn't be predominately white because some other ethnicities were in northern europe in minutely small numbers.

There were ENTIRE KINGDOMS in Africa ruled by white people thousands of years ago, yet the idea that Wakandan leadership is exclusively black is somehow the logical choice to you?

If Sub-Saharan Africa or where ever this FICTIONAL Wakanda is located is supposed to be free of other races, well, middle earth is a FICTIONAL place in Northern Europe which is ALSO a homogenous population.

Vibranium is just as bullshit a thing as magic and balrogs.

Anyway, Iwe are not gonna agree on this so let's just both hope LOTR has great fight choreography and that Black Panther 2 can honor Chadwick Boseman, agreed?
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
But your argument is that middle earth shouldn't be predominately white because some other ethnicities were in northern europe in minutely small numbers.

There were ENTIRE KINGDOMS in Africa ruled by white people thousands of years ago, yet the idea that Wakandan leadership is exclusively black is somehow the logical choice to you?

If Sub-Saharan Africa or where ever this FICTIONAL Wakanda is located is supposed to be free of other races, well, middle earth is a FICTIONAL place in Northern Europe which is ALSO a homogenous population.

Vibranium is just as bullshit a thing as magic and balrogs.

Anyway, Iwe are not gonna agree on this so let's just both hope LOTR has great fight choreography and that Black Panther 2 can honor Chadwick Boseman, agreed?

Agreed! It's gonna be great on both fronts! Although... I'm not sure about the fight choreography for either franchise. I will hope but I'm not sure about how the fights will be. They did HORRIBLE fights for BP ... It was all CGI. I HATE cgi fights! Make it more like Winter Soldier and we're good! They need the same guys they used for the LOTR movies for their fights!
 

Doom85

Member
Agreed! It's gonna be great on both fronts! Although... I'm not sure about the fight choreography for either franchise. I will hope but I'm not sure about how the fights will be. They did HORRIBLE fights for BP ... It was all CGI. I HATE cgi fights! Make it more like Winter Soldier and we're good! They need the same guys they used for the LOTR movies for their fights!

The challenge fights against M’Baku and Killmonger for the throne were legit though.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Agreed! It's gonna be great on both fronts! Although... I'm not sure about the fight choreography for either franchise. I will hope but I'm not sure about how the fights will be. They did HORRIBLE fights for BP ... It was all CGI. I HATE cgi fights! Make it more like Winter Soldier and we're good! They need the same guys they used for the LOTR movies for their fights!
My hope for LOTR is that the action is spectacular. I hope they have the time, they certainly have the money, to do it as practical as possible and use the CGI to supplement, not replace, the stunt work.

If they are aiming to replicate the first series and not fall down the hobbit hole, that should be the goal.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
The challenge fights against M’Baku and Killmonger for the throne were legit though.

I forgot all about those! Very true. They were legit!
My hope for LOTR is that the action is spectacular. I hope they have the time, they certainly have the money, to do it as practical as possible and use the CGI to supplement, not replace, the stunt work.

If they are aiming to replicate the first series and not fall down the hobbit hole, that should be the goal.

Practical is best for fights! And as Doom85 reminded me, the challenge fights were 100% practical in BP!

The battle of Helm's Deep was AMAZING in Two Towers!
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
And to bring this thread to a more positive place, I also hope the world feels as lived in as the LOTR films. I wanted to dress in those clothes and armor, swing those swords, smoke the pipes, drink from the tankards, wear the cloaks, eat the food, and build a damn Rohirrim great hall and a hobbit hole! I don't know what they did that turned costumes and sets into THINGS but I hope 450 million gets them there :p

I thought Wheel of Time sorta got there with some stuff, but no where near what they should or could have done. It's weird how hard it is to make good looking medieval clothing.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
And to bring this thread to a more positive place, I also hope the world feels as lived in as the LOTR films. I wanted to dress in those clothes and armor, swing those swords, smoke the pipes, drink from the tankards, wear the cloaks, eat the food, and build a damn Rohirrim great hall and a hobbit hole! I don't know what they did that turned costumes and sets into THINGS but I hope 450 million gets them there :p

I thought Wheel of Time sorta got there with some stuff, but no where near what they should or could have done. It's weird how hard it is to make good looking medieval clothing.

I loved the Elven clothing! I would rock a flowing garment like Elrond's in a heartbeat!
 
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