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[Men_in_Boxes]

"We talked about the tone in Tolkien's books," he continued. "This is material that is sometimes scary—and sometimes very intense, sometimes quite political, sometimes quite sophisticated—but it's also heartwarming and life-affirming and optimistic. It's about friendship and it's about brotherhood and underdogs overcoming great darkness." - McKay

 

[Doom85]

It's funny. I watched 2 episodes of The Gilded Age (Downton Abbey clone) which I'm sure has a 99 percent female audience.

None of the women in the show act like men. None of them are prone to violence. No guns. No fisticuffs. Nothing.

Do they only want to subvert gender norms when the audience is expected to be mixed?

Shows like Downtown Abbey have a ton of action? Shit, I had a total misunderstanding of what that show was supposed to be!

Seriously, what the fuck is this comparison? This is like saying, “guys, in Legally Blonde the girls never used guns so therefore Black Widow should not get in a single fight ever in the MCU.”

I’m pretty sure virtually none of the women watching this show will mind if Galadriel kicks some ass. Not saying the show will necessarily be good, but seriously this is ridiculous. It’s action fantasy, heaven forbid some girls swing a sword and shit. I can’t imagine many female D&D players would want to be playing with a DM who tells them only the male players can fight while the female players can only heal and provide moral support.

 

[kruis]

The showrunners have zero previous credits:

John D. Payne | Writer, Producer, Script and Continuity Department

Known for: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Escape, Flash Gordon

www.imdb.com

Patrick McKay | Writer, Producer, Script and Continuity Department

Known for: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Escape, Flash Gordon

www.imdb.com

This is a big corpo project run by committee. It has an enormous budget, and there is no one at the helm to ensure it takes risks or respects the source material above other concerns. There's zero chance it will be good.

That's crazy. How did these two nobodies without any prior experience get to helm a 465 million dollar tv show?? Were they best buddies with Bezos?

 

[rubik's dude]

That's crazy. How did these two nobodies without any prior experience get to helm a 465 million dollar tv show?? Were they best buddies with Bezos?

This reminds me of the RLM review of The Last Jedi, where Mike said the same exact thing about Rian Johnson.

 

[jason10mm]

Shows like Downtown Abbey have a ton of action? Shit, I had a total misunderstanding of what that show was supposed to be!

Seriously, what the fuck is this comparison? This is like saying, “guys, in Legally Blonde the girls never used guns so therefore Black Widow should not get in a single fight ever in the MCU.”

I’m pretty sure virtually none of the women watching this show will mind if Galadriel kicks some ass. Not saying the show will necessarily be good, but seriously this is ridiculous. It’s action fantasy, heaven forbid some girls swing a sword and shit. I can’t imagine many female D&D players would want to be playing with a DM who tells them only the male players can fight while the female players can only heal and provide moral support.

I think his point is that it should be OK to have a pure guy show just there are very feminine shows. Lately it seems like everything MUST sell to women to a large degree, very little is just to men.

Maybe Reacher is an exception, not seen it yet. Perhaps Outlander is as well, any ladies picking up targe and broadsword in that one,?

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Looks okay, I guess.

Some of you are ridiculous with your anti-woke screaming though, lol. "A minority!? In MY children's fantasy entertainment!?"

Fuck off with this shit. I cannot be bothered explaining this again but just because it’s a fantasy world does not mean it has to be ridiculous.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

I know everyone is a pessimist these days, but this looks fricken awesome to me. Characters look cool, sets look cool, filmed in New Zealand, talented people involved, Howard Shore score. Can't wait to see the trailer.

Who are the talented people you know working on this show?

 

[Doom85]

I think his point is that it should be OK to have a pure guy show just there are very feminine shows. Lately it seems like everything MUST sell to women to a large degree, very little is just to men.

Maybe Reacher is an exception, not seen it yet. Perhaps Outlander is as well, any ladies picking up targe and broadsword in that one,?

Plenty of women like LOTR and by extension fantasy as a whole, so why would they not “sell to women”?

Also, plenty of male viewers like seeing women kick ass, so it would be an inaccurate generalization anyway.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Plenty of women like LOTR and by extension fantasy as a whole, so why would they not “sell to women”?

Also, plenty of male viewers like seeing women kick ass, so it would be an inaccurate generalization anyway.

The LotR movies showed that you don’t need female warriors to appeal to women.

 

[Doom85]

This reminds me of the RLM review of The Last Jedi, where Mike said the same exact thing about Rian Johnson.

Are we comparing actual newbies to a guy who had directed a feature film before not to mention one of the most critically acclaimed TV episodes of all time?

I know plenty of people on Gaf have an obsession with hating on Rian Johnson but this isn’t quite comparable.

Not to mention Peter Jackson had directed nothing even close to the scale of the LOTR trilogy beforehand when he got the job.

 

[Doom85]

The LotR movies showed that you don’t need female warriors to appeal to women.

There must be some third edition I wasn’t aware of that removed Arwen and Eowyn from the films…..

 

[Stop Motion Pornography]

Fuck off with this shit. I cannot be bothered explaining this again but just because it’s a fantasy world does not mean it has to be ridiculous.

And just because you're triggered that it's not just a bunch of old white guys with fake British accents anymore does not suggest anything regarding the quality of the show.

 

[Stop Motion Pornography]

Did you guys know that Gandalf is played by a gay dude? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[haxan7]

Did you guys know that Gandalf is played by a gay dude? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Chill out bro

 

[sw0mp_d0nk3y]

Who are the talented people you know working on this show?

A lot of the writers have done some solid stuff, and I believe that is the most important aspect of a show. There are also some pretty good actors cast as well. The showrunners... I have no clue about them.

 

[SirKicksalot]

Not to mention Peter Jackson had directed nothing even close to the scale of the LOTR trilogy beforehand when he got the job.

An Oscar nominee for writing, who directed a good number of movies, who owns his own special effects companies and came with a fantastic pitch including finished VFX shots is a safer choice than two dudes who did uncredited rewrites on Star Trek Beyond and know J.J. Abrams...

...is what I would say if I cared about art and shit like that.
Johnson before Star Wars vs Jackson before LOTR - it's not even a contest. Jackson was on fire back in the 90s, even if The Frighteners bombed (opened next to Independence Day and the Atlanta Olympics lmao).

 

[O-N-E]

The showrunners have zero previous credits:

John D. Payne | Writer, Producer, Script and Continuity Department

Known for: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Escape, Flash Gordon

www.imdb.com

Patrick McKay | Writer, Producer, Script and Continuity Department

Known for: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, Escape, Flash Gordon

www.imdb.com

Would be interesting to know what their cut of the $ is.

 

[jason10mm]

Plenty of women like LOTR and by extension fantasy as a whole, so why would they not “sell to women”?

Also, plenty of male viewers like seeing women kick ass, so it would be an inaccurate generalization anyway.

But what aspects do they actually like? I'd argue the appeal of Arwen or Eowyn riding around swinging a sword is a DIIIIIIIIIIIISTANT second place to the Aragorn/Arwen love story, the Eowyn/Faramir relationship, or the idea that Eowyn labors under the expectations of her father and the predations of Wormtounge. Eowyn in particular is given a proper build-up to her combat role but I doubt many women cared that she was a WOMYN, rather just a sympathetic character.

Anyhoo, the point that there is a strong drive to add women to masculine projects but not much interest in adding men to feminine ones still stands. Show me a project about a sewing circle that adds some spec-ops guys with their own side plot of stopping terrorists while the ladies solve petty crimes in their neighborhood.

 

[Stop Motion Pornography]

But what aspects do they actually like? I'd argue the appeal of Arwen or Eowyn riding around swinging a sword is a DIIIIIIIIIIIISTANT second place to the Aragorn/Arwen love story, the Eowyn/Faramir relationship, or the idea that Eowyn labors under the expectations of her father and the predations of Wormtounge. Eowyn in particular is given a proper build-up to her combat role but I doubt many women cared that she was a WOMYN, rather just a sympathetic character.

Anyhoo, the point that there is a strong drive to add women to masculine projects but not much interest in adding men to feminine ones still stands. Show me a project about a sewing circle that adds some spec-ops guys with their own side plot of stopping terrorists while the ladies solve petty crimes in their neighborhood.

...It's a children's fantasy series.

 

[Doom85]

Show me a project about a sewing circle that adds some spec-ops guys with their own side plot of stopping terrorists while the ladies solve petty crimes in their neighborhood.

Which would have nothing to do with fantasy where men and women kick ass together since in your hypothetical show you’re asking for the male characters to do something physically and tonally separated from what the female characters are doing.

 

[rubik's dude]

Are we comparing actual newbies to a guy who had directed a feature film before

Two people with no experience are given the reins to a billion dollar franchise, one person who had made one film was given the reins to a billion dollar franchise. It seems fair to compare the two.

 

[Cockles & Whelks]

That's crazy. How did these two nobodies without any prior experience get to helm a 465 million dollar tv show?? Were they best buddies with Bezos?

That's exactly how Hollywood works.

 

[jason10mm]

Which would have nothing to do with fantasy where men and women kick ass together since in your hypothetical show you’re asking for the male characters to do something physically and tonally separated from what the female characters are doing.

You mean like EVERY ACTION Show that has "soldiers and the women who love them"? Dude, TONS of shows have A and B plots that are divergent. Ever see The Unit? This is what I'm talking about.

For a big budget show I'd expect equal appeal for men and women. However that doesn't mean the women gotta be fighting right alongside the men. And if this is a world where women Do fight alongside the men, then it should feel organic and there shouldn't be even a hint of "guuurl power" because for them, it's just Tuesday, not a statement.

Though for this Galadrial in armor thing, I don't really care. Out of context it is hard to say what she is even doing. Elves presumably have time to eventually get a suit of everything tailor made to their curves

 

[jason10mm]

...It's a children's fantasy series.

The Silmarillion is a children's book? WTF?

I think you must have gotten an abridged illustrated copy then.....

 

[BaneIsPain]

"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favourite franchises go down in flames?"

"FEELS GREATT"

 

[TheInfamousKira]

...It's a children's fantasy series.

This is a terrible dismissal of a GACHA employed by people who have no counter claim or actual reason to favor A over B.

The Lion King is a children's fantasy, but we, the audience, still know that Mufasa isn't going to sprout wings like a griffin and fly away from the stampede, or that Timon is going to usurp the crown and become king of the Pride Lands. "But these things could totally happen in a cartoon about talking animals!"

But they don't. It's because fantastical or grounded, a literary work, be it a film, novel, game or series is weighted by the shackles of It's OWN LOGIC. There absolutely NEEDS to be a rule book that is adhered to in order to make stakes that the audience cares about, in order to make compelling characters whose success or failure resonates, and, especially in fantasy, to ground events and make those fantastical, whimsical elements more pronounced in the work.

If anything could go without a second guess in fiction, solely because it's fiction, would the audience care when Neo learned how to manipulate the code in the Matrix? Would the audience feel intimidated by Sephiroth impaling the Midgar Zolom on a tree? No, because there's no need for internal logic, rules, or stakes because it's not real deep.

As a last note, this "it's a children's fantasy," thing is used on the stupidest properties. I see it used here, and on Star Wars. Find me a ten year old who is on the edge of their seat and fully understands the gravity and pathos at play during the senate meetings on Coruscant where they debate (in a committee!) the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems. Find me a ten year old who really resonates with Aragorn's struggle as the fated king of men, always afraid that he possesses the same weakness of avarice as his forefather. Fuck, Find me a ten year old who can make it past the Tom Bombadil chapter in FotR.

I'll never stop shaking my head at people who think if it has aliens or elves or blasters or swords for the kiddos. High Fantasy is traditionally a genre that would scar children, should they possess the miracle in this day and age of being literate beyond Doja Cat lyrics.

Tolkien's works have always been honest, and above all else, united and singularly focused on the perspective and life experiences of one artist. This is one man's life work, and it should be preserved and passed on for what it is and was, not what other people with far less talent or life experience deem it SHOULD be or is missing.

 

[Doom85]

You mean like EVERY ACTION Show that has "soldiers and the women who love them"? Dude, TONS of shows have A and B plots that are divergent. Ever see The Unit? This is what I'm talking about.

For a big budget show I'd expect equal appeal for men and women. However that doesn't mean the women gotta be fighting right alongside the men. And if this is a world where women Do fight alongside the men, then it should feel organic and there shouldn't be even a hint of "guuurl power" because for them, it's just Tuesday, not a statement.

Though for this Galadrial in armor thing, I don't really care. Out of context it is hard to say what she is even doing. Elves presumably have time to eventually get a suit of everything tailor made to their curves

You’re comparing a 2000’s show about US military in a time where the concept of female soldiers IRL was still catching on so not surprisingly the soldiers are guys to a fantasy series in a setting where an old dude fought off a massive fire demon with a magic stick?

Also, yeah it’ll feel organic, because a woman swinging a sword competently requires less suspension of disbelief from me than an old dude beating a massive fire demon with a magic stick (which I can also believe based on the setting, but the former has actual grounding in reality while the latter does not). I didn’t need Fellowship of the Ring to pause itself so it could show how Legolas was such an insanely skilled archer before he showed up. Lord knows the books/movies constantly hyped up the Aragorn trio in terms of action scenes, fuck Legolas and Gimli have a contest on who can get the most kills, so a female character in this series getting some standout badass moments is fine by me.

 

[Doom85]

Find me anyone who isn’t a compulsive liar who is on the edge of their seat and fully understands the gravity and pathos at play during the senate meetings on Coruscant where they debate (in a committee!) the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Stop Motion Pornography]

This is a terrible-

Yeah I'm not reading that whole thing, but I think you're missing my point. My point is that every single thread about a new movie or show or upcoming reboot is *full* of people having a bitch fit about "Oh it's gonna be SO WOKE" if they even get a slight hint of not being 100% traditional value representation, and it's just so pitiful and exhausting given that so many of these properties that have grown ass men going "No this should be FOR ME AND ME ONLY" tend to be literal cartoons made for babies

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Yeah I'm not reading that whole thing, but I think you're missing my point. My point is that every single thread about a new movie or show or upcoming reboot is *full* of people having a bitch fit about "Oh it's gonna be SO WOKE" if they even get a slight hint of not being 100% traditional value representation, and it's just so pitiful and exhausting given that so many of these properties that have grown ass men going "No this should be FOR ME AND ME ONLY" tend to be literal cartoons made for babies

You quote the first four words of my post and say "lol I'm not reading that," ? Really? I'm not going to respond to you past this post, either. Twinsies! Supa kawaii!

 

[Doom85]

You quote the first four words of my post and say "lol I'm not reading that," ? Really? I'm not going to respond to you past this post, either. Twinsies! Supa kawaii!

 

[Trogdor1123]

It's funny. I watched 2 episodes of The Gilded Age (Downton Abbey clone) which I'm sure has a 99 percent female audience.

None of the women in the show act like men. None of them are prone to violence. No guns. No fisticuffs. Nothing.

Do they only want to subvert gender norms when the audience is expected to be mixed?

It’s out? I’ll have to check it

Also, it’s made by fellowes, it’s not a clone.

 

[jason10mm]

You’re comparing a 2000’s show about US military in a time where the concept of female soldiers IRL was still catching on so not surprisingly the soldiers are guys to a fantasy series in a setting where an old dude fought off a massive fire demon with a magic stick?

Also, yeah it’ll feel organic, because a woman swinging a sword competently requires less suspension of disbelief from me than an old dude beating a massive fire demon with a magic stick (which I can also believe based on the setting, but the former has actual grounding in reality while the latter does not). I didn’t need Fellowship of the Ring to pause itself so it could show how Legolas was such an insanely skilled archer before he showed up. Lord knows the books/movies constantly hyped up the Aragorn trio in terms of action scenes, fuck Legolas and Gimli have a contest on who can get the most kills, so a female character in this series getting some standout badass moments is fine by me.

The unit has no female soldiers. The US special forces still doesn't today.

My point, if you could kindly climb down off your soapbox to hear it, is that there is a strong push to put women into male pop cultural spaces but virtually zero push for men to be in women's pop cultural spaces.

LotR is supposed to be a prehistory of Northern Europe, the wellspring of that culture. If you can believe it the intent was to be as grounded and realistic as possible. Tolkein spent enormous time and energy trying to make things fit, the lunar cycles, travel times, languages, family trees, geographic effects, the flow of civilization and peoples, etc. So to think that he then just casually handwaved away combat (something he was intimately familiar with) or racial/ethnic lineage is patently ludicrous.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Huh. I guess Galadriel didn't care enough about saving Middle-Earth to pick up her bad-ass armor and sword again to aid in destroying the ring. Tough shit Frodo, you're gonna have to do everything on your own. Here's some rope to hang yourself with Sam, now fuck off. All the minorities skedaddled as soon as shit got real too. We're learning so much about these characters and the world. They're not ruining them and the story at all guys!

 

[Doom85]

The unit has no female soldiers. The US special forces still doesn't today.

My point, if you could kindly climb down off your soapbox to hear it, is that there is a strong push to put women into male pop cultural spaces but virtually zero push for men to be in women's pop cultural spaces.

LotR is supposed to be a prehistory of Northern Europe, the wellspring of that culture. If you can believe it the intent was to be as grounded and realistic as possible. Tolkein spent enormous time and energy trying to make things fit, the lunar cycles, travel times, languages, family trees, geographic effects, the flow of civilization and peoples, etc. So to think that he then just casually handwaved away combat (something he was intimately familiar with) or racial/ethnic lineage is patently ludicrous.

Okay, but the US military does as a whole if we’re applying it to the IRL military genre as a whole.

And here it comes

Let’s just not as now we’re randomly bringing race/ethnicity into this, and this is going to be the Wheel of Time debate all over again. I don’t see women fighting as not fitting into Tolkien’s world, which yes he did spend a lot of time developing though you are exaggerating him developing all characters’ combat abilities as I do not recall LOTR in the books and especially the movies justifying Legolas and Gimli’s highly exceptional combat abilities. Which isn’t a problem for me but by that same token I don’t have a problem with Galadriel doing it.

Look, even if this contradicts some aspect of The Silmarillion (I’ve read it twice but didn’t memorize the damn thing), they’ve already said they’re altering the history so the same characters can experience significant events that their lifespans wouldn’t allow for. So maybe treat this like I do the ‘89 Batman movie. For me personally, making Joker the Waynes’ killer alters the Batman mythos entirely, as it takes the concept of “Bruce lost his parents to a random criminal, in a way crime itself took them from him, and now he fights to prevent that from happening to anyone else” to a “main bad guy killed the hero’s parents because of course he fucking did” cliche. But I still enjoy the ‘89 film purely as a film and not an adaptation rather than getting hung up on the inaccuracies. Mind you, I don’t extend that to Forever or Robin as those films suck as adaptations AND movies.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Huh. I guess Galadriel didn't care enough about saving Middle-Earth to pick up her bad-ass armor and sword again to aid in destroying the ring. Tough shit Frodo, you're gonna have to do everything on your own. Here's some rope to hang yourself with Sam, now fuck off. All the minorities skedaddled as soon as shit got real too. We're learning so much about these characters and the world. They're not ruining them and the story at all guys!

Spoilers for the end of season 1: Sauron is a cis white male

 

[AJUMP23]

Remember when Hollywood thought fantasy shows will never work. Now we are arguing about how they are ruining fantasy shows.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Shows like Downtown Abbey have a ton of action? Shit, I had a total misunderstanding of what that show was supposed to be!

Seriously, what the fuck is this comparison? This is like saying, “guys, in Legally Blonde the girls never used guns so therefore Black Widow should not get in a single fight ever in the MCU.”

I’m pretty sure virtually none of the women watching this show will mind if Galadriel kicks some ass. Not saying the show will necessarily be good, but seriously this is ridiculous. It’s action fantasy, heaven forbid some girls swing a sword and shit. I can’t imagine many female D&D players would want to be playing with a DM who tells them only the male players can fight while the female players can only heal and provide moral support.

Do you think fantasy can be good? Isn't it possible that people hold LotR in such high regard because it's themes and symbols relate to the human experience in a particularly adept way?

Women can be warriors where it makes sense. Sniper Wolf (MGS), Brienne of Tarth (GoT), Arwen (LotR)... When princess archetypes out brute male soldiers it doesn't resonate because it's not grounded in a truth.

I bring up The Guilded Age because I couldn't fathom its male counterpart (historical period drama written for 99% male audience) where violence isn't a central component. It's almost like most women aren't really interested in out bruting men.

 

[8bitpill]

I'm wondering if they're gonna explain high levels of melanin in someonr living underground most of the timr, but I'm pretty confident they're not.

Those are the Dwarfs that dug too greedily and burnt themselves by the middle earths lava.

Honestly when I caught these photos earlier I thought the same thing.

 

[Mistake]

I'm wondering if they're gonna explain high levels of melanin in someonr living underground most of the timr, but I'm pretty confident they're not.

Maybe they were a long line of discriminated coal miners

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Those are the Dwarfs that dug too greedily and burnt themselves by the middle earths lava.

Honestly when I caught these photos earlier I thought the same thing.

STRAIGHT OUTTA MORIA

 

[Doom85]

Women can be warriors where it makes sense.

See, this is the bullshit I can’t stand. Make sense? It’s called, “let’s hope the reader/viewer can use their brain and realize they trained in using whatever weapon they’re using”. Not every fucking female character needs to have a entire Mulan-style arc to show how they got to be a fighter especially when the franchise has had plenty of male characters that never had that (again, Gimli and Legolas). Hell, by your logic the Hobbits should have slaughtered countless times in combat as we know for a fact they never fought before leaving the Shire and no, forgive me if I’m not impressed by some brief sparring with Boromir (which IIRC wasn’t even in the book).

I’m not responding to this particular thread anymore. Geezus Christ, can’t enjoy any modern fiction with dragons, magic, fucking Cthulhu, whatever without some people bitching how the world doesn’t conform to their outdated gender roles.

 

[Halo is Back]

I doubt this will be good

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

See, this is the bullshit I can’t stand. Make sense? It’s called, “let’s hope the reader/viewer can use their brain and realize they trained in using whatever weapon they’re using”. Not every fucking female character needs to have a entire Mulan-style arc to show how they got to be a fighter especially when the franchise has had plenty of male characters that never had that (again, Gimli and Legolas). Hell, by your logic the Hobbits should have slaughtered countless times in combat as we know for a fact they never fought before leaving the Shire and no, forgive me if I’m not impressed by some brief sparring with Boromir (which IIRC wasn’t even in the book).

I’m not responding to this particular thread anymore. Geezus Christ, can’t enjoy any modern fiction with dragons, magic, fucking Cthulhu, whatever without some people bitching how the world doesn’t conform to their outdated gender roles.

It's OK. We don't have to agree on everything. I still like you.

 

[Doom85]

It's OK. We don't have to agree on everything. I still like you.

Wha, wha, don’t think that makes me happy, baka!

JK, take care, and I’m sure there will always be plenty of series either of us, or ideally both, can enjoy.

 

[poodaddy]

This is gonna be bunko booty cheeks.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

There must be some third edition I wasn’t aware of that removed Arwen and Eowyn from the films…..

Arwen just rode a horse in the first movie and Eowyn only came into action in the last movie. But I’m sure you know that they weren’t the main or secondary draws in those movies.

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

A lot of the writers have done some solid stuff, and I believe that is the most important aspect of a show. There are also some pretty good actors cast as well. The showrunners... I have no clue about them.

You’ve got 1 writer who wrote 5 episodes of Breaking Bad. The rest are pretty forgettable. There are 9 writers on this show. I think we have another Wheel of Time coming up.

 

[8bitpill]

STRAIGHT OUTTA MORIA

Don’t be a Menace in The Shire.

Elfz N Rivendell

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Arwen just rode a horse in the first movie and Eowyn only came into action in the last movie. But I’m sure you know that they weren’t the main or secondary draws in those movies.

Furthermore, people in 2001 were even bitching about Arwen riding the horse, because it didn't happen that way in the novel. People who act like we started the "bawww woke," thing have poor memories, it's definitely the other side whose clamoring for race and identity politics over a consistent storyline who started this "people who don't think this is an 11/10 are racist,"

Like, look back to the early 00's. In Peter Jackson's snow white trilogy of movies, people were still bitching about Arwen's presence, about Frodo and Sam meeting up with Boromir's brother in TTT, with the way the undead army behaved in RotK, with the Mouth of Sauron being a literal guy with a huge mouth instead of just the ambassador for Mordor. People treat The History of Middle Earth much like a second gospel, and have NEVER taken well to liberties taken on the source material, sex, race and political climate be damned.

Sometimes the group of angry neckbeards are just a group of angry neckbeards, and not the High Council of Grand Wizards in the Klan.